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Getbig Bodybuilding Boards => Training Q&A => Topic started by: Alexander D on December 05, 2009, 12:41:51 PM

Title: Fat Burning vs Cardio
Post by: Alexander D on December 05, 2009, 12:41:51 PM
I'm hoping someone can shed some light on this:

On the stationary bike in my gym, it states that for a 30 year old:

65% of my max heart rate should be around -123 bpm. And that at this rate- this is optimal for FAT BURNING.

and that, 80% of my max HR should be around 152 bpm and that this rate is optimal for Cardiovascular health.

Now, I do not fully understand this concept...  Let's say that I ride the bike for 15 minutes and at 65% of my max HR, i burn 150 calories... Now compare that to if i ride the bike for 15 minutes at 80% of my max HR and I burn 200 calories... Isn't the latter going to help me decrease my overall bodyfat better due to the fact that im burning more calories this way?

Or do we mobilize fat better at lower heart rates? or something!?

Hopefully someone can clarify, or point me to a website that explains it!

thanks!

-A DUB
Title: Re: Fat Burning vs Cardio
Post by: Stubborn on December 05, 2009, 01:00:58 PM
I would look at it as 'muscle sparing' rather than "fat burning". You will burn fat during both. You will certainly burn more calories the higher your HR, but there is an area that is more conducive to utilization of two stores of energy (carbs/fat), rather than the body pulling energy from wherever possible (muscle/fat/carbs). There is a little more to it, but that is all it really means. This is why you see bodybuilders doing very low intensity 'cardio'.
Title: Re: Fat Burning vs Cardio
Post by: dyslexic on December 05, 2009, 10:43:01 PM
The higher the intensity of the exercise, the more calories you burn. Intensity and Duration are not one and the same. The harder you do something, the less time you will be able to spend doing it. The easier the task is to perform, the longer you will last.


I personally think it is good to alternate HIT cardio and moderate long bouts of cardio. Your body will get used to anything over time, may as well change things up.


Don't forget the weights. Muscle burns fat when it is doing nothing. Build of much of that muscle tissue as possible.
Title: Re: Fat Burning vs Cardio
Post by: Fatpanda on December 06, 2009, 04:58:08 AM
I'm hoping someone can shed some light on this:

On the stationary bike in my gym, it states that for a 30 year old:

65% of my max heart rate should be around -123 bpm. And that at this rate- this is optimal for FAT BURNING.

and that, 80% of my max HR should be around 152 bpm and that this rate is optimal for Cardiovascular health.

Now, I do not fully understand this concept...  Let's say that I ride the bike for 15 minutes and at 65% of my max HR, i burn 150 calories... Now compare that to if i ride the bike for 15 minutes at 80% of my max HR and I burn 200 calories... Isn't the latter going to help me decrease my overall bodyfat better due to the fact that im burning more calories this way?

Or do we mobilize fat better at lower heart rates? or something!?

Hopefully someone can clarify, or point me to a website that explains it!

thanks!

-A DUB

enjoy a-dub

http://www.alanaragon.com/myths-under-the-microscope-the-fat-burning-zone-fasted-cardio.html
Title: Re: Fat Burning vs Cardio
Post by: wes on December 06, 2009, 06:30:13 AM
Fuck all that heartrate and fatburning zone crap.

Just eat clean,train hard,and mix cardio up for variety, and above all,be consistant at all three!!

30-45 minutes 5-6 x a week depending on bodyfat levels is all that`s needed as long as diet is spot on.
Title: Re: Fat Burning vs Cardio
Post by: The Ugly on December 09, 2009, 01:16:55 PM
Fuck all that heartrate and fatburning zone crap.

Just eat clean,train hard,and mix cardio up for variety, and above all,be consistant at all three!!

30-45 minutes 5-6 x a week depending on bodyfat levels is all that`s needed as long as diet is spot on.

What about tacking it on immediately after weights? Still 30-45 on those days?
Title: Re: Fat Burning vs Cardio
Post by: nolotil on December 09, 2009, 04:53:03 PM
I'm hoping someone can shed some light on this:

On the stationary bike in my gym, it states that for a 30 year old:

65% of my max heart rate should be around -123 bpm. And that at this rate- this is optimal for FAT BURNING.

and that, 80% of my max HR should be around 152 bpm and that this rate is optimal for Cardiovascular health.

Now, I do not fully understand this concept...  Let's say that I ride the bike for 15 minutes and at 65% of my max HR, i burn 150 calories... Now compare that to if i ride the bike for 15 minutes at 80% of my max HR and I burn 200 calories... Isn't the latter going to help me decrease my overall bodyfat better due to the fact that im burning more calories this way?

Or do we mobilize fat better at lower heart rates? or something!?

Hopefully someone can clarify, or point me to a website that explains it!

thanks!

-A DUB

stop this, it doesnt matter, just do fast walking for 30-60min thats all you need to worry about and that you are ina caloric deficit. i have dieted for many shows, science is good but no need for science in bodybuolding very simple sport
Title: Re: Fat Burning vs Cardio
Post by: nolotil on December 09, 2009, 04:56:21 PM
What about tacking it on immediately after weights? Still 30-45 on those days?

no do not do cardio after weights, put it in the morning if you do weights in the evening or vicer versa. seperate them maximally .
Title: Re: Fat Burning vs Cardio
Post by: tbombz on December 09, 2009, 05:05:07 PM
more calories burned= more weight lost

keeping your heart rate low= improved ability to retain muscle
Title: Re: Fat Burning vs Cardio
Post by: nolotil on December 09, 2009, 08:05:08 PM
more calories burned= more weight lost

keeping your heart rate low= improved ability to retain muscle

bodybuilders should never run or do too high intensity..fast walks is the best. tried and true x millions.
Title: Re: Fat Burning vs Cardio
Post by: dyslexic on December 09, 2009, 08:59:21 PM
Fuck all that heartrate and fatburning zone crap.

Just eat clean,train hard,and mix cardio up for variety, and above all,be consistant at all three!!

30-45 minutes 5-6 x a week depending on bodyfat levels is all that`s needed as long as diet is spot on.


five to six times a week???? Oh shit!!!!


Title: Re: Fat Burning vs Cardio
Post by: local hero on December 10, 2009, 01:45:35 AM
no do not do cardio after weights, put it in the morning if you do weights in the evening or vicer versa. seperate them maximally .

makes no difference what so ever if you do them after weights....
Title: Re: Fat Burning vs Cardio
Post by: nolotil on December 10, 2009, 04:23:30 AM
makes no difference what so ever if you do them after weights....

yes it does, the cardio sends reverse signal to the body compared to lifting weights. so seperate cardio and weights, specially if natural bodybuilder
Title: Re: Fat Burning vs Cardio
Post by: The Ugly on December 10, 2009, 06:41:03 AM
yes it does, the cardio sends reverse signal to the body compared to lifting weights. so seperate cardio and weights, specially if natural bodybuilder

Signal?
Title: Re: Fat Burning vs Cardio
Post by: local hero on December 10, 2009, 07:16:28 AM
yes it does, the cardio sends reverse signal to the body compared to lifting weights. so seperate cardio and weights, specially if natural bodybuilder

sorry, thats utter bullshit...... dont even care if u have some proof
Title: Re: Fat Burning vs Cardio
Post by: The Ugly on December 10, 2009, 07:41:31 AM
sorry, thats utter bullshit...... dont even care if u have some proof

I do it regardless, no interest in morning/evening split shit anymore.

Only 20 minutes, though, post-workout; 30 off days.

Done.
Title: Re: Fat Burning vs Cardio
Post by: Fatpanda on December 10, 2009, 08:35:39 AM
sorry, thats utter bullshit...... dont even care if u have some proof

he is correct. there have been studies done on this. hence the reason powerlifters spilt max effort and speed days. the 'signals' interfere with each other - producing less results than either protocol done by itself on seperate days. However i will quantify it by saying i think its only if working the same muscle group.
Title: Re: Fat Burning vs Cardio
Post by: local hero on December 10, 2009, 08:41:47 AM
so your body will only grow when it gets the signal from weight training, so when you do your cardio after it looses the signal, and you loose less fat too???..... i suppose the bodybuilders doin 2 or 3 sessions of cardio pre contest most be signal crazy, specialy if they do weights that day too


people try to make things much harder than they need to be,,,,,, ive done this protocol both ways, split and after training and it makes no difference what so ever,,, altho i do actualy train and look like i train, unlike alot of people on here...
Title: Re: Fat Burning vs Cardio
Post by: Fatpanda on December 10, 2009, 08:45:55 AM
so your body will only grow when it gets the signal from weight training, so when you do your cardio after it looses the signal, and you loose less fat too???..... i suppose the bodybuilders doin 2 or 3 sessions of cardio pre contest most be signal crazy, specialy if they do weights that day too


people try to make things much harder than they need to be,,,,,, ive done this protocol both ways, split and after training and it makes no difference what so ever,,, altho i do actualy train and look like i train, unlike alot of people on here...

i didn't say that. For the average joe it probably won't make much difference, but for elite athletes it does.

So if you want to be getting 100% optimal results split it up. If not don't.
Title: Re: Fat Burning vs Cardio
Post by: nolotil on December 10, 2009, 08:48:11 AM
sorry, thats utter bullshit...... dont even care if u have some proof

no its not bullshit, educate yourself you idiot. it matters more for natural bodybuilders tho. but sometimes you don't have a choice due to time constraints.





Title: Re: Fat Burning vs Cardio
Post by: Fatpanda on December 10, 2009, 08:49:24 AM
i'll see if i can find one of the studies that backs this to help this thread. i have it stored somewhere......
Title: Re: Fat Burning vs Cardio
Post by: tbombz on December 10, 2009, 08:51:27 AM
i saw thhe studies in MD on this. its true, it seems from the few articles i saw. however,as fatpanda said, it only works if its the same muscle group.  what muscles are used in 99% of cardio ? primarily the legs.  so really, this would only stand true after leg day, BUT most people find theirlegs respond better to an endurance type of training anyway. so what difference would it make? probably none.
Title: Re: Fat Burning vs Cardio
Post by: nolotil on December 10, 2009, 08:53:39 AM
i'll see if i can find one of the studies that backs this to help this thread. i have it stored somewhere......

you are correct about if affecting the worked body part more...if you work legs and then go running  = not good at all. but hormonization makes seperation of cardio and weights much less imporant. not that you have to do cardio at all when dieting. personally i prefer to keep cardio in my diets 30-60min fast walks.
Title: Re: Fat Burning vs Cardio
Post by: local hero on December 10, 2009, 08:56:10 AM
no its not bullshit, educate yourself you idiot. it matters more for natural bodybuilders tho. but sometimes you don't have a choice due to time constraints.


dont throw a natty rage on me!!!!!
i stopped educating my self on all this crap years ago, dont get too wrapped up in all the new findings, i used to over analise everything, untill i found much of it made no difference at all in real world terms, and much of this upto date stuff changes with the wind.. end of the day you can follow all the best upto date sceintific advice to the letter, but if u dont have the genes youl still look shit

where as if you have decent genes youl grow and get lean as long as you put the hard work in, and thats how it is,,, end of story, dont get angry if you belong to the 1st group and not the latter
Title: Re: Fat Burning vs Cardio
Post by: nolotil on December 10, 2009, 09:00:51 AM
dont throw a natty rage on me!!!!!
i stopped educating my self on all this crap years ago, dont get too wrapped up in all the new findings, i used to over analise everything, untill i found much of it made no difference at all in real world terms, and much of this upto date stuff changes with the wind.. end of the day you can follow all the best upto date sceintific advice to the letter, but if u dont have the genes youl still look shit

where as if you have decent genes youl grow and get lean as long as you put the hard work in, and thats how it is,,, end of story, dont get angry if you belong to the 1st group and not the latter

fuck you, you know nothing about me. you were wrong so i pointed it out.
Title: Re: Fat Burning vs Cardio
Post by: local hero on December 10, 2009, 09:03:33 AM
put a few pics up to proove me wrong if youd like,,, take my hat off to you if you did and you look good..
Title: Re: Fat Burning vs Cardio
Post by: nolotil on December 10, 2009, 09:03:56 AM
also i think too much high intensity cardio is shit...makes you tired and increases risk of muscle loss when dieting and will force complete opposite adaptation (endurance) compared to what you want as  a bodybuilder (hypertrophy). in other words bodybuilders should limit their cardio to fast walks if you chose to do cardio when dieting.
Title: Re: Fat Burning vs Cardio
Post by: Fatpanda on December 10, 2009, 09:05:17 AM
Here's a quicl general study:

Interference of strength development by simultaneously training for strength and endurance

Summary:  The purpose of this study was to determine how individuals adapt to a combination of strength and endurance training as compared to the adaptations produced by either strength or endurance training separately. There were three exercise groups: a strength group (S) that exercised 30–40 min·day–1, 5 days·week–1, an endurance group (E) that exercised 40 min·day–1, 6 days·week–1; and an S and E group that performed the same daily exercise regimens as the S and E groups. After 10 weeks of training, VO2 max increased approx. 25% when measured during bicycle exercise and 20% when measured during treadmill exercise in both E, and S and E groups. No increase in VO2 max was observed in the S group. There was a consistent rate of development of leg-strength by the S group throughout the training, whereas the E group did not show any appreciable gains in strength. The rate of strength improvement by the S and E group was similar to the S group for the first 7 weeks of training, but subsequently leveled off and declined during the 9th and 10th weeks. These findings demonstrate that simultaneously training for S and E will result in a reduced capacity to develop strength, but will not affect the magnitude of increase in VO2 max
Title: Re: Fat Burning vs Cardio
Post by: nolotil on December 10, 2009, 09:08:01 AM
put a few pics up to proove me wrong if youd like,,, take my hat off to you if you did and you look good..

you totally misunderstand me...im def not an overanalyser and i dont get caught up in details . bodybuilding is very simple and should be inits application.
Title: Re: Fat Burning vs Cardio
Post by: SamoanIrishman on December 10, 2009, 09:10:41 AM
dont throw a natty rage on me!!!!!
i stopped educating my self  on all this crap years ago, dont get too wrapped up in all the new findings, i used to over analise everything, untill i found much of it made no difference at all in real world terms, and much of this upto date stuff changes with the wind.. end of the day you can follow all the best upto date sceintific advice to the letter, but if u dont have the genes youl still look shit

where as if you have decent genes youl grow and get lean as long as you put the hard work in, and thats how it is,,, end of story, dont get angry if you belong to the 1st group and not the latter

It shows...anyone that takes anything serious, will always strive to improve. This is done by education..whether by learning from those who have experience or literature. Educating yourself means you evolve and become less likely to viewed as ignorant or controlled by others. Why do you think Tyrants of times past forbid education to the masses on certain subjects. Vatican, Hitler, Middle East (with regards to their women)..etc...

Grow up.
Title: Re: Fat Burning vs Cardio
Post by: The Ugly on December 10, 2009, 09:16:38 AM
i'll see if i can find one of the studies that backs this to help this thread. i have it stored somewhere......

Studies are gay.
Title: Re: Fat Burning vs Cardio
Post by: Fatpanda on December 10, 2009, 09:18:32 AM
here is a good article on this.

http://www.sport-fitness-advisor.com/strength-training.html

has lots of studie links.
Title: Re: Fat Burning vs Cardio
Post by: local hero on December 10, 2009, 09:46:48 AM
It shows...anyone that takes anything serious, will always strive to improve. This is done by education..whether by learning from those who have experience or literature. Educating yourself means you evolve and become less likely to viewed as ignorant or controlled by others. Why do you think Tyrants of times past forbid education to the masses on certain subjects. Vatican, Hitler, Middle East (with regards to their women)..etc...

Grow up.

 ::)....... train hard, eat well.... how hard is that, why the need for endless studies, if youve got it youve got it, if youve trained for over a decade and dont know your own body its time to take up a new hobby
Title: Re: Fat Burning vs Cardio
Post by: SamoanIrishman on December 10, 2009, 10:09:46 AM
Because...like most science, adaptation / evolution occurs which breeds innovation via research, education, study, trial and error to find ways to achieve bigger better results more efficiently. What works for your body one year may not the next...why do you think there are 20 different ways to train the same muscle? Plateaus happen. Why is there constant medical research? Disease evolve, discovered etc...

For example, your local Ravens (Gay) Rugby club sucks because they read the rules of rugby and train like novices..hence failure. They have decide they know ALL there is to know about training, diet, form, strategy because they've been playing for years. What's the difference between all teams with experienced players??? Desire & Passion for constant improvement, mental readiness to accept new ideas, willingness to subdue their ego enough to deploy the new found knowledge. :-*

...just saying that not educating yourself and being so naive and arrogant to think you have it "all figured out" is a primitive and foolish way of thinking regardless of the subject / action / career /hobby you choose to pursue. Its sets you up to fail eventually because everyone else evolves past you.

Cheers.

Title: Re: Fat Burning vs Cardio
Post by: local hero on December 10, 2009, 12:58:38 PM
the only thing thats changed in bodybuilding in 30 yrs is advances in nutrition and drugs, they trained the same 30yrs ago as they do now, and theyl train the same way in 30yrs time too..because it isnt rocket science, as much as some of you would like it to be.

the only secret in bodybuilding is learning your own body...
Title: Re: Fat Burning vs Cardio
Post by: Fatpanda on December 10, 2009, 02:11:55 PM
the only thing thats changed in bodybuilding in 30 yrs is advances in nutrition and drugs, they trained the same 30yrs ago as they do now, and theyl train the same way in 30yrs time too..because it isnt rocket science, as much as some of you would like it to be.

the only secret in bodybuilding is learning your own body...
::)
Title: Re: Fat Burning vs Cardio
Post by: wes on December 11, 2009, 05:08:43 AM
Dyslexic,I meant depending on ones bodyfat levels cardio should be done 5-6 times a week.

If a person is very fat,he should do more cardio,or longer duration of cardio,or cardio split up two times per day.

For a person in reasonably good shape with lower bodyfat levels,3-4 times a week at 30 minutes should suffice.

For pre-contest,5-6 times a week is the norm, unless you stay really low in bodyfat levels,or are naturally very lean (fast metabolism).

The best time for cardio IMO,is post-workout,ie., immediately after training.

Doing cardio right before training with weights is a bad idea...............you deplete glucose and glycogen from doing the cardio, then have shit for reserves when trying to train hard,which results in a crappy training session from lack of energy and intensity.

If cardio is done after training hard when glucose and glycogen stores are depleted from said training,you then tap into fat stores to use as fuel for the cardio, hence reducing bodyfat levels.

This is only accomplished from eating clean for the most part and keeping protein intake high to retain muscle size.

Also,to retain muscle size,fast walking on an inclined treadfmill is the best way alternated at times with HIT cardio on an eliptical machine.

Vary the incline during the session as well as varying speed and incline throughout the week.

Avoid cardio on leg day or just take a slow walk of longer duration outside after training legs.

Just my 2 cents and the way I get into contest condition for decades.
Title: Re: Fat Burning vs Cardio
Post by: nolotil on December 11, 2009, 05:33:54 AM
Dyslexic,I meant depending on ones bodyfat levels cardio should be done 5-6 times a week.

If a person is very fat,he should do more cardio,or longer duration of cardio,or cardio split up two times per day.

For a person in reasonably good shape with lower bodyfat levels,3-4 times a week at 30 minutes should suffice.

For pre-contest,5-6 times a week is the norm, unless you stay really low in bodyfat levels,or are naturally very lean (fast metabolism).

The best time for cardio IMO,is post-workout,ie., immediately after training.

Doing cardio right before training with weights is a bad idea...............you deplete glucose and glycogen from doing the cardio, then have shit for reserves when trying to train hard,which results in a crappy training session from lack of energy and intensity.

If cardio is done after training hard when glucose and glycogen stores are depleted from said training,you then tap into fat stores to use as fuel for the cardio, hence reducing bodyfat levels.

This is only accomplished from eating clean for the most part and keeping protein intake high to retain muscle size.

Also,to retain muscle size,fast walking on an inclined treadfmill is the best way alternated at times with HIT cardio on an eliptical machine.

Vary the incline during the session as well as varying speed and incline throughout the week.

Avoid cardio on leg day or just take a slow walk of longer duration outside after training legs.

Just my 2 cents and the way I get into contest condition for decades.

why would you do cardio straight after working out when all that will do is (1) send reverse signal of growth (2) prolong the time you dont eat after the workout. point of a workout is to send a growth signal. makes no sense at all. almost worse time to do cardio...together with just before a workout.

and of course people still have gotten results doing it that way,, i have to..but when you learn new things you can make changes and seperate cardio from the weights session.

best time to do cardio, if you choose to do it, is as far away from the workouts as possible.
Title: Re: Fat Burning vs Cardio
Post by: wes on December 11, 2009, 05:42:46 AM
You could be right,but I`m not hitting the gym twice a day, and this has always gotten me down to single digit bodyfat levels.

I think you may be overanalysing a bit...............it`s not rocket science!!

Bottom line is,if you create a calorie deficit,you`ll lose weight/fat.

As far as signals go,if you tear down tissue while training,it`ll grow or recover if diet is in order regardless of cardio time...........again,not rocket science.

As far as stalling eating time,I doubt if 30 minutes later is gonna` make me shrink down to nothing.

Again,overanalysing things and relying on articles read as opposed to real experience.



Studies schmudies........real world experience counts for far more.
Title: Re: Fat Burning vs Cardio
Post by: nolotil on December 11, 2009, 06:14:08 AM
You could be right,but I`m not hitting the gym twice a day, and this has always gotten me down to single digit bodyfat levels.

I think you may be overanalysing a bit...............it`s not rocket science!!

Bottom line is,if you create a calorie deficit,you`ll lose weight/fat.

As far as signals go,if you tear down tissue while training,it`ll grow or recover if diet is in order regardless of cardio time...........again,not rocket science.

As far as stalling eating time,I doubt if 30 minutes later is gonna` make me shrink down to nothing.

Again,overanalysing things and relying on articles read as opposed to real experience.



Studies schmudies........real world experience counts for far more.

im also a bottom line guys..if something is working dont mess with it...in general...but its not like you have to do cardio after weights. as for studies i dont read studies i read articles written by smart guys who read studies  ;D (and no..not regular bodybuilding magazines  :D)....

i have dieted for many shows myself doing cardio after workouts....but it doesnt meen that its the  best thing to do...cuz you cant seperate factors when you talk about anectodes.
Title: Re: Fat Burning vs Cardio
Post by: Fatpanda on December 11, 2009, 10:08:10 AM
wes i take it you never read the first link i posted  ::)

studies have shown why you shouldn't do cardio on an empty stomach. you may ignore them because you have managed doing it your way all these years, but facts are facts - you have been using sub standard inefficient tactics to get ripped and recover.
Title: Re: Fat Burning vs Cardio
Post by: wes on December 11, 2009, 03:25:16 PM
I`ll go back and check it FP.
Title: Re: Fat Burning vs Cardio
Post by: dyslexic on December 11, 2009, 10:56:42 PM
Thanks Wes.


All this scientific objectivity is giving (us) dejavu again isn't it?



First and foremost, the CNS has to be in a positive state. All the other crap will fall into place.



I would never be able to do cardio after  legs as I can barely walk out of the gym... I also have a manual transmission to contend with. You know what works for you. You have incorporated your science, logic and emperical data to maximize your efficiency.


How can someone possibly say it could have been significantly (key word) better and more efficient?


This is why I will continue to post about all the dogma and objective science that is currently being shoved down our throats (no homo)


Sooner or later, it will change when the money flows differently and the studies have perpetuated long enough to convince all the new certification orginizations.


Sometimes when people post here, I can almost see them taking their A.C.E cert for the first time and getting ready to preach to the masses. I have seen pics of your physique Wes. Can't imagine you doing anything differently when it comes to getting shredded.


Oh well...  ;D
Title: Re: Fat Burning vs Cardio
Post by: local hero on December 12, 2009, 06:35:27 AM
You could be right,but I`m not hitting the gym twice a day, and this has always gotten me down to single digit bodyfat levels.

I think you may be overanalysing a bit...............it`s not rocket science!!

Bottom line is,if you create a calorie deficit,you`ll lose weight/fat.

As far as signals go,if you tear down tissue while training,it`ll grow or recover if diet is in order regardless of cardio time...........again,not rocket science.

As far as stalling eating time,I doubt if 30 minutes later is gonna` make me shrink down to nothing.

Again,overanalysing things and relying on articles read as opposed to real experience.



Studies schmudies........real world experience counts for far more
.
[/quo
Title: Re: Fat Burning vs Cardio
Post by: local hero on December 12, 2009, 06:39:31 AM
spoken by somone else on here who actual trains, and looks like he trains........... amazing how us fellow men of muscle who have dieted down to sub 5% and carried around a good amount of bodymass seem not to sweat the little stuff, just train hard eat well and still look great...
Title: Re: Fat Burning vs Cardio
Post by: wes on December 13, 2009, 02:50:52 PM
I agree with local hero (of course) !!

Thanks for the kind words dyslexic,I like your posts and views on training.
Title: Re: Fat Burning vs Cardio
Post by: Fatpanda on December 14, 2009, 09:28:36 AM



How can someone possibly say it could have been significantly (key word) better and more efficient?



Oh well...  ;D

because they have compared both methods via tightly controlled peer reviewed, double blind studies . Which shows conclusively that it is less efficient  ;)

i am not saying cardio on an empty stomach is bad, simply that the science shows it to be inferior in many respects to fed cardio.

i am not stating personal opinion, i have no preference either way. in fact i feel like i have more energy on an empty stomach. But facts are facts.

take it or leave it.
Title: Re: Fat Burning vs Cardio
Post by: Team Diver on December 14, 2009, 11:20:07 AM
I'm hoping someone can shed some light on this:

On the stationary bike in my gym, it states that for a 30 year old:

65% of my max heart rate should be around -123 bpm. And that at this rate- this is optimal for FAT BURNING.

and that, 80% of my max HR should be around 152 bpm and that this rate is optimal for Cardiovascular health.

Now, I do not fully understand this concept...  Let's say that I ride the bike for 15 minutes and at 65% of my max HR, i burn 150 calories... Now compare that to if i ride the bike for 15 minutes at 80% of my max HR and I burn 200 calories... Isn't the latter going to help me decrease my overall bodyfat better due to the fact that im burning more calories this way?

Or do we mobilize fat better at lower heart rates? or something!?

Hopefully someone can clarify, or point me to a website that explains it!

thanks!

-A DUB

I think low intensity 'cardio' activities like speedy walk must also be beneficial for cardiovascular health. Staying at 152 bpm for 30-40 minutes sounds a bit tough for me...
Title: Re: Fat Burning vs Cardio
Post by: nolotil on December 14, 2009, 06:17:23 PM
Wow lots of heated debates. I appreciate all the replies.

It was my understanding that doing cardio in low glycogen states was IDEAL... being that you burn more fat at this time.... low glycogen states being first thing in the morning (after overnight fast) and after lifting weights.

I dont know if i buy into all this negative signal stuff?

I typically lift weights for 45-90 minutes depending on the day and will do cardio for 15-30 minutes after on most days... but i will switch things up.

I am not really trying to be super scientific, moreso, just attempting to understand the basics and do things with a purpose, not simply because "thats what others do".


thanks!

-A DUB


1. doing cardio after weights is far from ideal. a) sends reverse signal b) delays food intake;....its important to get protein into your system to kick start anabolism after a workout (in simpliefied terms)
2. the substrate you burn during cardio isnt as important as the calories you burn and/or that you achieve a caloric deficit over a certain period of time.
3. if you do cardio on an empty stomach in the morning and burn relatively more fat, the body will burn more carbs during the rest of the day so at the end of the day it evens out. (= do cardio whenever you want except in conjunction with workouts...nothing wrong with morning cardio...but it isnt magic.)


bottom line: seperate weights and cardio and make sure you are in a caloric deficit if you wanna loose weight. keep protein high and lift heavy to keep muscle.
Title: Re: Fat Burning vs Cardio
Post by: dyslexic on December 14, 2009, 06:38:18 PM
At the same time, when observing competitive professional bodybuilders before a competition who work out at Golds in Venice-- you will still see them hit the treadmill at a very slow, near death walk after their brutal weight training.


Walk up to them when they win their placings and tell them that they could have done it better and differently. Make sure your bodyfat levels are low in the single digits when you confront them.


Better yet, interrupt their post-workout cardio sessions and tell them then...
Title: Re: Fat Burning vs Cardio
Post by: nolotil on December 14, 2009, 06:42:32 PM
At the same time, when observing competitive professional bodybuilders before a competition who work out at Golds in Venice-- you will still see them hit the treadmill at a very slow, near death walk after their brutal weight training.


Walk up to them when they win their placings and tell them that they could have done it better and differently. Make sure your bodyfat levels are low in the single digits when you confront them.


Better yet, interrupt their post-workout cardio sessions and tell them then...

look; what a drugged up pro does isnt relevant for most people..specially not naturals. aas lets you get away with alot of stuff you wouldnt asa natural. hell, you can grow without training if you take drugs.
Title: Re: Fat Burning vs Cardio
Post by: Alexander D on December 14, 2009, 07:48:38 PM
i agree... what a ifbb pro on drugs does is far from what a natural should do.

At the same time, i also think many pros could benefit from thinking outside of the box and trying something different that might actually work better for them?


-A DUB
Title: Re: Fat Burning vs Cardio
Post by: Fatpanda on December 15, 2009, 07:41:04 AM
At the same time, when observing competitive professional bodybuilders before a competition who work out at Golds in Venice-- you will still see them hit the treadmill at a very slow, near death walk after their brutal weight training.


Walk up to them when they win their placings and tell them that they could have done it better and differently. Make sure your bodyfat levels are low in the single digits when you confront them.


Better yet, interrupt their post-workout cardio sessions and tell them then...
::)

i see you have no answer to science so you continue to deflect  ::) good luck with that.
Title: Re: Fat Burning vs Cardio
Post by: nolotil on December 16, 2009, 02:59:37 PM
I don't understand what you mean by "reverse signal"? Lifting weights- breaks down muscle, fat, carbs... cardio ideally- breaks down more fat than anything else... both anerobic and areobic exercise are catabolic... what do u mean by reverse signal?

-A DUB

reverse signal: 'endurance adaptations' (among other things) which can be said to be the opposite of hypertrophy adaptations. lifting weights+amino acids stimulate protein synthesis to such a degree that you hopefully get a net gain of protein , thats how you grow. yes initially lifting weights is catabolic but when you ingest protein your become anabolic (simplified..there is always anabolism and catabolism at the same time but the ratio shifts to more anabolic for a while).
Title: Re: Fat Burning vs Cardio
Post by: nolotil on December 16, 2009, 05:21:17 PM
interesting stuff... im going to give it a try (seperate days for cardio and weight lifting)... only issue is that, while in school im only really getting into the gym 3-4 days per week... and i much prefer lifting weights than cardio!

so, i may only do cardio once or twice per week. hmm

-A DUB

not necessarily..just dont do the cardio  after weights. you can do cardio in the morning and weights in the evening. you dont have to go to the gym to do cardio. further what training goals do you have?. you have to look at the big picture. if its gaining muscle mass i would be careful with doing too much cardio..specially high intensity such as running and just stick with fast walking.

look its not that complicated: you workout with weights
3-4 days a week then you do cardio a few times per  week. if you wanna loose weight you make sure your in a caloric deficit..if you wanna gain weight you make sure your in a caloric surplus.

Title: Re: Fat Burning vs Cardio
Post by: The Ugly on December 17, 2009, 07:16:17 AM
I don't think my body's smart enough to send signals and whatnot.
Title: Re: Fat Burning vs Cardio
Post by: nolotil on December 17, 2009, 04:16:54 PM
I don't think my body's smart enough to send signals and whatnot.

it must be as you're alive  ;)