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Getbig Misc Discussion Boards => Religious Debates & Threads => Topic started by: Dos Equis on October 16, 2010, 10:32:30 AM
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What does this mean?
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I think it could mean that they do believe in a spirit world and maybe God as well but don't subscribe to any existing religion or belief system.
Maybe they believe in angel like entities and beings that are not seen....or maybe they consider believing in a good vs evil type thing is spiritual.
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I think it could mean that they do believe in a spirit world and maybe God as well but don't subscribe to any existing religion or belief system.
Maybe they believe in angel like entities and beings that are not seen....or maybe they consider believing in a good vs evil type thing is spiritual.
Could be. I have trouble distinguishing a belief in spirits, etc. from a belief in a "religion." Seems like the same thing.
But maybe it's as you say a way to try and explain a non-belief in organized religion.
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Spiritual but not religious=PC for I haven't really thought much about the issue at hand but is sure sounds cool when I say spiritual!
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Spiritual but not religious=PC for I haven't really thought much about the issue at hand but is sure sounds cool when I say spiritual!
Pretty much!!
Or, "I believe in God; but I don't feel I have to actually uphold any standards or be accountable to anyone".
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Pretty much!!
Or, "I believe in God; but I don't feel I have to actually uphold any standards or be accountable to anyone".
Exactly! Belief without accountability...very convenient!
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Exactly! Belief without accountability...very convenient!
Not sure it has anything to do with that. Christians seem obsessed with accountability mostly likely because some of them would go around in a murderous rampage without their god (I have met people who said they would kill their neighbors if their god had not commanded them to do so). I have said it before and I will say it again, for me the tangible lack of evidence to support the existence of the Christian deity (or any other for that matter) is what makes me an atheist not so idea of accountability. Society holds me accountable, my own conscience holds me accountable as do the people in my life. I don't need a Canaanite storm deity to that for me.
'Spiritual' people are just people who haven't thought much about such things; it doesn't mean anything when they say the word.
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Not sure it has anything to do with that. Christians seem obsessed with accountability mostly likely because some of them would go around in a murderous rampage without their god (I have met people who said they would kill their neighbors if their god had not commanded them to do so). I have said it before and I will say it again, for me the tangible lack of evidence to support the existence of the Christian deity (or any other for that matter) is what makes me an atheist not so idea of accountability. Society holds me accountable, my own conscience holds me accountable as do the people in my life. I don't need a Canaanite storm deity to that for me.
'Spiritual' people are just people who haven't thought much about such things; it doesn't mean anything when they say the word.
I find Christians wishy washy on the accountability thingy...
On one hand they (some) say atheist just don't want to be accountable and do anything they want... on the other they (some) are the dirtiest, lyingest, most immoral people I have known and they fall back on "I'm not perfect, just forgiven" when caught.. go figure
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I've talked to a few who say they aren't religious but spiritual. I was left with the impression while they don't believe in the typical biblical type god, they believe there are spiritual forces at work in the universe, it may be nature itself. Or all humans are interconnected with other humans and nature through some type of vague bond. Mostly I find it means different things depending on who is speaking.
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I find Christians wishy washy on the accountability thingy...
On one hand they (some) say atheist just don't want to be accountable and do anything they want... on the other they (some) are the dirtiest, lyingest, most immoral people I have known and they fall back on "I'm not perfect, just forgiven" when caught.. go figure
I actually made a video about this topic:
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Not sure it has anything to do with that. Christians seem obsessed with accountability mostly likely because some of them would go around in a murderous rampage without their god (I have met people who said they would kill their neighbors if their god had not commanded them to do so). I have said it before and I will say it again, for me the tangible lack of evidence to support the existence of the Christian deity (or any other for that matter) is what makes me an atheist not so idea of accountability. Society holds me accountable, my own conscience holds me accountable as do the people in my life. I don't need a Canaanite storm deity to that for me.
'Spiritual' people are just people who haven't thought much about such things; it doesn't mean anything when they say the word.
I'd hardly call that "obsessed". As the saying goes, when the cat's away, the mice will play. We saw that, for example, when Moses left the Israelites for nearly a month and a half. They're barely out of Egypt, after praying for CENTURIES to be delivered; yet they revert right back to their heathen ways.
As for your claim of society holding you accountable, that comes, in no small part, because those in society will also be held accountable for their actions (or lack thereof).
As the risk of inaccurately speaking for Loco, he and I stated what we did, because the whole "spiritual not religious" routine is often just a talking PC point for nominally recognizing there's a God, provided they don't have to answer to Him or abide by any regulations that go contrary to their philosophical, political, emotional, or even physical inclinations (or, in Biblical laymen's terms, their flesh).
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I'd hardly call that "obsessed". As the saying goes, when the cat's away, the mice will play. We saw that, for example, when Moses left the Israelites for nearly a month and a half. They're barely out of Egypt, after praying for CENTURIES to be delivered; yet they revert right back to their heathen ways.
As for your claim of society holding you accountable, that comes, in no small part, because those in society will also be held accountable for their actions (or lack thereof).
As the risk of inaccurately speaking for Loco, he and I stated what we did, because the whole "spiritual not religious" routine is often just a talking PC point for nominally recognizing there's a God, provided they don't have to answer to Him or abide by any regulations that go contrary to their philosophical, political, emotional, or even physical inclinations (or, in Biblical laymen's terms, their flesh).
I honestly have no idea what 'spiritual' is supposed to mean; I guess it is a very individual thing. It could mean anything. I am not spiritual at all.
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I honestly have no idea what 'spiritual' is supposed to mean; I guess it is a very individual thing. It could mean anything. I am not spiritual at all.
I think that both your explaination and mine pretty much sum it up.
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I think that both your explaination and mine pretty much sum it up.
Yeah, wow, we agree! :o
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I've talked to a few who say they aren't religious but spiritual. I was left with the impression while they don't believe in the typical biblical type god, they believe there are spiritual forces at work in the universe, it may be nature itself. Or all humans are interconnected with other humans and nature through some type of vague bond. Mostly I find it means different things depending on who is speaking.
That goes back to what I said earlier. Those vague spiritual forces or "nature" won't tell them not to steal or lie, won't tell them pesky things like "Thou shalt not commit adultery". Certainly, it won't say that homosexuality is wrong or that you should actually care for the children you conceive (in and out of the womb).
As long as "the universe" doesn't clash with my flesh, everything's fine.
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Yeah, wow, we agree! :o
Who said there are no such things are miracles!! ;D
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That goes back to what I said earlier. Those vague spiritual forces or "nature" won't tell them not to steal or lie, won't tell them pesky things like "Thou shalt not commit adultery". Certainly, it won't say that homosexuality is wrong or that you should actually care for the children you conceive (in and out of the womb).
As long as "the universe" doesn't clash with my flesh, everything's fine.
I think I wasn't clear..
I left the conversations not feeling at all like they were spiritual because it gave them the freedom to lie, cheat and steal without beholding to any eye in the sky. One particular person I can think of I recently interacted with was in fact by all observable accounts a pretty stellar pillar of the community and moral person.
As an agnostic, I've been accused of actually not believing in a god because it would hamper my desire to be as wild and wicked as I want to be. Sadly, I'm a pretty boring, law abiding citizen. What I suspect, is many have perhaps tried the beaten path of organized biblical religion, found it lacking, and created their own belief system or lack thereof.. well, pretty much like every organized religion has, and every sect of every organized religion has... The Under the Christian umbrella of churches you have splinter groups of Catholics, First baptist and Southern Baptist, Pentecostal, Methodist, etc etc.. each disagreeing over some point or another with the original sect. The "spiritualist" for a lack of a better term took a different path. I think it unfair and inaccurate to paint them as people who feel the way they do simply to avoid rules and regulation of the biblical or organized gods.
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Could be. I have trouble distinguishing a belief in spirits, etc. from a belief in a "religion." Seems like the same thing.
But maybe it's as you say a way to try and explain a non-belief in organized religion.
It's not the same thing and it's NOT a way to try and explain non-belief in organized religion. Example: As a Christian, you're locked into what you believe right? Well someone who "believes in the spiritual" but is not "religious" is not locked into that. They can observe and attempt to understand and adjust. They know there is something else but they're not being told what that is like Christians are and how they should behave. They're not told there are eternal consequences for questioning. They believe that if they live a good life and do right by others and always attempt to do the right thing, that this is all they can do as individuals in this mortal realm. They are not bound by a set of rules written thousands of years ago and are not about to be herded into a weekly sermon telling them what they should feel, do and be. This, contrary to popular Christian belief is a line of thought that goes back a long way in America. There were many from the start that didn't have a very favorable view of "the church"
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It's not the same thing and it's NOT a way to try and explain non-belief in organized religion. Example: As a Christian, you're locked into what you believe right? Well someone who "believes in the spiritual" but is not "religious" is not locked into that. They can observe and attempt to understand and adjust. They know there is something else but they're not being told what that is like Christians are and how they should behave. They're not told there are eternal consequences for questioning. They believe that if they live a good life and do right by others and always attempt to do the right thing, that this is all they can do as individuals in this mortal realm. They are not bound by a set of rules written thousands of years ago and are not about to be herded into a weekly sermon telling them what they should feel, do and be. This, contrary to popular Christian belief is a line of thought that goes back a long way in America. There were many from the start that didn't have a very favorable view of "the church"
Who's been told that there are eternal consequence for questioning? I've NEVER heard that, during my years in the Christian faith.
And, as I've asked when similar topics have come up, when you talk about "live a good life" and "do right by others" and "attempt to do the right thing", exactly WHO IS making the rules as to what is right vs. what is wrong? Per Proverbs 14:12, There is a way which seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death.
What's the standard, here?
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It's not the same thing and it's NOT a way to try and explain non-belief in organized religion. Example: As a Christian, you're locked into what you believe right? Well someone who "believes in the spiritual" but is not "religious" is not locked into that. They can observe and attempt to understand and adjust. They know there is something else but they're not being told what that is like Christians are and how they should behave. They're not told there are eternal consequences for questioning. They believe that if they live a good life and do right by others and always attempt to do the right thing, that this is all they can do as individuals in this mortal realm. They are not bound by a set of rules written thousands of years ago and are not about to be herded into a weekly sermon telling them what they should feel, do and be. This, contrary to popular Christian belief is a line of thought that goes back a long way in America. There were many from the start that didn't have a very favorable view of "the church"
And who told these "spiritual" people that "if they live a good life and do right by others and always attempt to do the right thing, that this is all they can do as individuals in this mortal realm"? Looks like a set of rules to me. And what is "good" and "moral"? Who determines that?
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Who's been told that there are eternal consequence for questioning? I've NEVER heard that, during my years in the Christian faith.
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Hugo, I think God welcomes questioning... Questioning has lead many to accept Jesus as real and true.
And as for those of us that already believe, God wants us to come to Him w/our questions as well. Many people questioned God in the bible and were not punished for doing so.
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Hugo, I think God welcomes questioning... Questioning has lead many to accept Jesus as real and true.
And as for those of us that already believe, God wants us to come to Him w/our questions as well. Many people questioned God in the bible and were not punished for doing so.
My guess is that Hugo is (or was) Catholic. It appears that a lot of folks with a bone to pick with religion, particularly from foreign countries, comes from Catholic backgrounds. That would make sense as (according to a poll I saw a few years ago) claimed that 67% of all professed Christians are Catholic internationally; but only 33% or so were such, in the United States.
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Who's been told that there are eternal consequence for questioning? I've NEVER heard that, during my years in the Christian faith.
And, as I've asked when similar topics have come up, when you talk about "live a good life" and "do right by others" and "attempt to do the right thing", exactly WHO IS making the rules as to what is right vs. what is wrong? Per Proverbs 14:12, There is a way which seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death.
What's the standard, here?
The standard is the golden rule (which we know was not original to your Jesus). Christians are obsessed with authority but you don't need a cosmic tyrant to tell you what is right and wrong. It is rational and logical to not want have pain inflicted on you and hence it follows that it not be inflicted on others by you either. Pretty simple.
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It's not the same thing and it's NOT a way to try and explain non-belief in organized religion. Example: As a Christian, you're locked into what you believe right? Well someone who "believes in the spiritual" but is not "religious" is not locked into that. They can observe and attempt to understand and adjust. They know there is something else but they're not being told what that is like Christians are and how they should behave. They're not told there are eternal consequences for questioning. They believe that if they live a good life and do right by others and always attempt to do the right thing, that this is all they can do as individuals in this mortal realm. They are not bound by a set of rules written thousands of years ago and are not about to be herded into a weekly sermon telling them what they should feel, do and be. This, contrary to popular Christian belief is a line of thought that goes back a long way in America. There were many from the start that didn't have a very favorable view of "the church"
I think you have some misconceptions about mainstream Christianity. I'm locked into certain beliefs, just like everyone else, and not locked into others. No one tells me how to behave. There is an expectation that you behave in a certain way when you join most organized Christian churches, but it's no different than any other organization (job, school, etc.) that has the same expectation.
And what you've described is pretty much what I theorized about: an attempt to distance oneself from organized religion.
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Some good points made in this thread...my own 2 cents.
I call myself a Christian but I wouldn't call myself religious. For some people, myself included, religious is a term that is impossible to live up to, regardless of the religion at hand...most all religions call for perfection, which is humanly impossible. When we look at Christianity and Jesus' actions in the bible, those who were "Religious" Jesus had no time for them, in-fact he could not stand the way they acted, the pharisees being the prime example. Jesus called for men to be good, to love their neighbors and to seek the heart of God through him...he didn't call for people to join a certain sect of the Christian religion.
I do believe a lot of people say they're "Spiritual" because as said in this thread, they're unsure but don't won't to call themselves atheist. But there are many who call themselves "Spiritual" who are Christians yet do not take on the title of "Religious."
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The standard is the golden rule (which we know was not original to your Jesus). Christians are obsessed with authority but you don't need a cosmic tyrant to tell you what is right and wrong. It is rational and logical to not want have pain inflicted on you and hence it follows that it not be inflicted on others by you either. Pretty simple.
And who made this Golden Rule? If your implication is that a mere man made that rule, it means that another man (with more military, financial, and/or political power) can make a "Platinum Rule", stating that they can inflict pain on YOU, even if they don't want such put on themselves.
I'm sure no rapist wants to be raped. No murderer wants to get shot. No thief wants his goods taken from him. And, no man, whoring around on his wife, wants to have another guy laying the pipe to his Mrs.
So, contrary to your claim, people can easily rationalize inflicting pain and harm to others, without such happening to themselves.
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And who made this Golden Rule? If your implication is that a mere man made that rule, it means that another man (with more military, financial, and/or political power) can make a "Platinum Rule", stating that they can inflict pain on YOU, even if they don't want such put on themselves.
I'm sure no rapist wants to be raped. No murderer wants to get shot. No thief wants his goods taken from him. And, no man, whoring around on his wife, wants to have another guy laying the pipe to his Mrs.
So, contrary to your claim, people can easily rationalize inflicting pain and harm to others, without such happening to themselves.
Sure they can rationalise this all and they do so with or without a god. Plenty of 'god fearing' folk rape and murder. Their belief in the authority of a god does nothing to stop them. It is not about authority and proclamation, it is about what is good in a rational and constructive way. You, being a Christian, are obsessed with authority, yet that alleged authority doesn't stop many Christians and religious people from committing crimes.
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Sure they can rationalise this all and they do so with or without a god. Plenty of 'god fearing' folk rape and murder. Their belief in the authority of a god does nothing to stop them. It is not about authority and proclamation, it is about what is good in a rational and constructive way. You, being a Christian, are obsessed with authority, yet that alleged authority doesn't stop many Christians and religious people from committing crimes.
Deicide,
You still haven't given an acceptable answer to the question "who sets the standard for morality and good?"
The standard is the golden rule (which we know was not original to your Jesus). Christians are obsessed with authority but you don't need a cosmic tyrant to tell you what is right and wrong. It is rational and logical to not want have pain inflicted on you and hence it follows that it not be inflicted on others by you either. Pretty simple.
MCWAY just showed you that your are incorrect. Just because someone does not want others doing him/her harm, it does not follow that he/she won't want to and won't do harm to others.
A huge part of the reason we are in this bad global economy is because economists and investors were sure that when it comes to financial decisions, "most people will do the right thing most of the time." But guess what, we all eventually found out the hard way that "most people will do the wrong thing most of the time." And it's not because of ignorance, but because of greed, irresponsibility, negligence and selfishness.
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Sure they can rationalise this all and they do so with or without a god. Plenty of 'god fearing' folk rape and murder. Their belief in the authority of a god does nothing to stop them. It is not about authority and proclamation, it is about what is good in a rational and constructive way. You, being a Christian, are obsessed with authority, yet that alleged authority doesn't stop many Christians and religious people from committing crimes.
Scripture has long addressed that, particularly in 1 John 2:4, "He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."
So, it's hardly a surprise that such things happen. But, your claim about what is "good" and "rational" and "constructive" makes no sense. The aforementioned rapists, murderers, and adulterers rationalized their actions and thought that, at some level, they were good and constructive.
Again, who's making the rules as to what's good, rational, and constructive? Who makes the call, ultimately?
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Scripture has long addressed that, particularly in 1 John 2:4, "He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."
So, it's hardly a surprise that such things happen. But, your claim about what is "good" and "rational" and "constructive" makes no sense. The aforementioned rapists, murderers, and adulterers rationalized their actions and thought that, at some level, they were good and constructive.
Again, who's making the rules as to what's good, rational, and constructive? Who makes the call, ultimately?
We all do as individuals, even if someone believes there is some divine power watching his/her every move, we generally accept that there is free will, so individuals, regardless of their particular belief system, make those calls, divine invigilation or not. And I seriously doubt people who commit serious crimes, (rape, murder, etc.) actually think of much of what they are doing at all, let alone, good.
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What does this mean?
I am not sure what the standard definition of it is, but to me it means:
- belief in a afterlife
- belief that spirits in the afterlife influence our lives
- belief that there is singular god
- does not adhere to organized religion
- belief religion is man made
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I am not sure what the standard definition of it is, but to me it means:
- belief in a afterlife
- belief that spirits in the afterlife influence our lives
- belief that there is singular god
- does not adhere to organized religion
- belief religion is man made
Thanks. That's pretty consistent with what I thought it meant.
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What does this mean?
In case of most people, both means nothing. They are following an ideology, a construct of their egos.
What it could mean is that one has found the spiritual core in one's religion, which is the essential part of it.
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I think it could mean that they do believe in a spirit world and maybe God as well but don't subscribe to any existing religion or belief system.
Maybe they believe in angel like entities and beings that are not seen....
I've talked to a few who say they aren't religious but spiritual. I was left with the impression while they don't believe in the typical biblical type god, they believe there are spiritual forces at work in the universe, it may be nature itself. Or all humans are interconnected with other humans and nature through some type of vague bond. Mostly I find it means different things depending on who is speaking.
While I can't and won't speak for anybody else, for me, STella's & Agnostic's definitions comes closest to describing my identity as one who is extremely spiritual, but not "religious".
I definitely believe life exists in many forms and on many planes & dimensions invisible to the naked eyes, and while usually undetectable to us in our 3 dimensional existence, exert influence in our lives based on how we choose to live our lives, and how open we are to the influence. I also believe these entities & forces do not exist in the forms traditionally assigned to them by the hypocritical lies and self-serving bullshit often preached in traditional dogmatic "religious" circles.
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i think it depends on the person you ask. for me, I don't believe in religous dogma/practices. I also think that the bible is more of a fairy tale story book trying to teach lessons than anything truly literal
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While I can't and won't speak for anybody else, for me, STella's & Agnostic's definitions comes closest to describing my identity as one who is extremely spiritual, but not "religious".
I definitely believe life exists in many forms and on many planes & dimensions invisible to the naked eyes, and while usually undetectable to us in our 3 dimensional existence, exert influence in our lives based on how we choose to live our lives, and how open we are to the influence. I also believe these entities & forces do not exist in the forms traditionally assigned to them by the hypocritical lies and self-serving bullshit often preached in traditional dogmatic "religious" circles.
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Look who is talking. You are a Nation of Islam follower. How is this for "hypocritical lies and self-serving bullshit"?
Nation of Islam Core Beliefs:
God: Wallace D. Fard came as God incarnate (God is man)
Muhammad: Elijah Muhammad is the prophet to tell about incarnation of Fard
Race: The original black race of man is superior, especially to the white man: a race of "blue-eyed devils" created by the black man
Creation: Black scientists created the plan which repeats every 25,000 years
Qur'an: Black scientists created and revealed the Bible and the Qur'an
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Nation_of_Islam#Comparison_with_traditional_Islam
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::)
Look who is talking. You are a Nation of Islam follower. How is this for "hypocritical lies and self-serving bullshit"?
Nation of Islam Core Beliefs:
God: Wallace D. Fard came as God incarnate (God is man)
Muhammad: Elijah Muhammad is the prophet to tell about incarnation of Fard
Race: The original black race of man is superior, especially to the white man: a race of "blue-eyed devils" created by the black man
Creation: Black scientists created the plan which repeats every 25,000 years
Qur'an: Black scientists created and revealed the Bible and the Qur'an
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Nation_of_Islam#Comparison_with_traditional_Islam
I'm not a Nation of Islam follower.
I will listen to what Farrakhan has to say on occasion, just as I might listen to what the Dalai Lama has to say, or even what Billy Graham may have to say on occasion. If I listened to Christopher Hitchens argue against waterboarding and agreed with his sentiments, would that make me an atheist?