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Getbig Misc Discussion Boards => Wrestling Board => Topic started by: mass 04 on January 02, 2011, 11:52:53 AM
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Who do you prefer? Who do you think the better worker was and who had the better career?
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I’m going to do my best to look at this objectively, focusing on the end product while ignoring the backstage bullshit.
On the Bret Scale:
BRET
Look: 8
To this day I’m shocked that the long, greasy hair and neon bubblegum pink ring gear caught on.
I don’t know if anyone else could have pulled that off the same way, and for that I give the Hitman credit.
Bret never had the body of a Warrior, or even Rude for that matter, but he had an athletic build and it worked to his advantage.
Hitman had an attainable/believable physique, which matched his realistic character & wrestling style.
Also, they gave him the top spot at a time when Vince was trying to distance the company from the negative press of the steroid scandal.
Talk: 7
Certainly not the greatest, but it worked.
He connected with the audience, which matters most, but I attribute much of that to his overall character.
By adding bits of his real/personal life, he grew the legend of his family to international heights, which also built up his own “mystique.”
Some of his promos seemed mundane and often ran maybe longer than they should have, but many of them had an edge - particularly towards the end of his first WWF run.
Wrestling Ability: 9.8
Solid ground game.
Versatile.
VERY REALISTIC.
EMOTIONALLY CHARGED.
Vast improvement over the era of Hogan’s, Warrior’s, etc.
Had Steamboat not shot himself in the foot, I believe the Dragon would have eventually stepped into this type of role.
While other guys maybe knew more and/or flashier moves, Bret knew how to make his moves MEAN THE MOST.
That comes from knowing how to tell a story in the ring; not with the microphone.
Bret’s matches always looked reactionary; never rehearsed.
The pacing, timing, psychology - everything was as close to perfect as one can get.
SHAWN
Look: 8.5
Got better with time.
In the Rocker days he didn’t even look like he trained, but once he went solo, he developed a respectable amount of muscularity.
He looked his best from about 96 to when he dropped the big belt to Austin.
I always thought the hair & ring gear matched the flamboyance of the character to a "T."
Talk: 8.3
Not the worst, but far from the best.
Used to stutter & lose his place a lot - can‘t even blame the placydils and booze because his ring work was damn near flawless.
The cockiness of the character really got him over as both a heel and a face: a true rarity in pro wrestling at that time.
Wrestling Ability: 9.7
Flashier than Bret, but still believable to a degree - especially when he had a good opponent to work with.
Like Bret, his performances almost always had an emotional hook.
Shawn also took great bumps that got him and his opponents over.
He could bring out the best and get the most out of any opponent.
Both men’s finsihers relied a great deal on the cooperation of the opponent.
Bret would sometimes hit the sharpshooter from an awkward/unexpected position (which made it more interesting), but almost always, the only way you could hook that move is if the other guy allowed you.
Sweet Chin Music was even more tacky.
Unless your opponent had never seen an HBK match and/or was deaf, that foot stomp & skip across the ring was perhaps the biggest telegraph in history.
I always preferred when Shawn hit it from out of nowhere - that always made more sense to me.
The other way, the guy had a good 10 seconds to move out of the way.
Regardless, the way Bret & HBK sold their finishers always popped the crowd.
I think their ratings are close enough to a tie.
Both were EXCELLENT workers.
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I would give the edge to Bret, although it is close. Shawn might have had the better career, but Bret was better.
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I lean very slightly towards Shawn. If Shawn had stayed retired, I'd go Bret, but the matches he had post comeback(HHH, Angle, Taker etc..) are impossible to ignore. Overall, I prefer Bret but I think Shawn was a bit better. I think Bret was underrated on the mic, his promos when he started the New Hart Foundation and went "anti American", were amazing. Both guys really made you believe like they were fighting for something, and in Bret's mind, I think he really thought he was.
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Slight edge to Shawn. When DX first began, he was pure gold.....the interviews, angles, etc... fit him perfectly and he always delivered in the ring.
It's interesting that both of them first made it big as TT wrestlers and later developed into singles stars. Something you just don't see much of anymore.
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Shawn was very innovative during the time he came up.
Bret also introduced to the mainstream WWF the realistic style common in the Northern territories.
Both men should be remembered for being the first to do a lot of what we saw then.
It always seemed to me that the farther North you got, the more solid & realistic a lot of the ring action was.
Conversely, the farther South you went, the cheesier the product was; even the gimmicks.
There were exceptions, but think AWA vs. MCW overall...
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Shawn was very innovative during the time he came up.
Bret also introduced to the mainstream WWF the realistic style common in the Northern territories.
Both men should be remembered for being the first to do a lot of what we saw then.
It always seemed to me that the farther North you got, the more solid & realistic a lot of the ring action was.
Conversely, the farther South you went, the cheesier the product was; even the gimmicks.
There were exceptions, but think AWA vs. MCW overall...
I think there were very different regions....the northeast was cheese-central under VKM, but once you got south of that, the Mid-Atlantic, Georgia, Texas areas were very old-school. Florida could get a little goofy, but the other other southern territories were just more about wrestling without over the top gimmicks like the WWF.
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I think there were very different regions....the northeast was cheese-central under VKM, but once you got south of that, the Mid-Atlantic, Georgia, Texas areas were very old-school. Florida could get a little goofy, but the other other southern territories were just more about wrestling without over the top gimmicks like the WWF.
Yeah.
I think Vince shattered the North's reputation a bit.
Although, they did have their share of cheese before that.
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Yeah.
I think Vince shattered the North's reputation a bit.
Although, they did have their share of cheese before that.
I always thought of the WWF, even years ago, as more of a "spectacle" like a circus.....they typically played in large metro areas, paid to have outside talent stop in on a regular basis but not for long.....later i thought of them more as the "hollywood blockbuster" type movies....very over the top, rely on gimmicky stuff, etc... The NWA and AWA especially were more of the traditional movies of the past. Some matches had a lot of layers, but others were just a kind of lead-in with some silliness.
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If you notice, the best wrestlers are they guys who worked in many territories and more importantly, Japan.
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If you notice, the best wrestlers are they guys who worked in many territories and more importantly, Japan.
Agreed. Look at all the guys that went overseas...it speaks for itself.
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The thing with Bret and Shawn is that they are two totally different styles of wrestlers. Bret is very technically sound and could tie a guy up in all kinds of holds. He has a huge wrestling background and has been around it his whole life. Shawn on the other hand has more of the entertaining side down to such an art that he could wrestle a ladder and make the ladder look great. In terms of comparison, they are both good in their own way. Watch Bret versus Diesel in their street fight from Summerslam in 1995 and watch Shawn vs Diesel in early 1996 in one of the very first IYH show PPV street fight match. You'll see both wrestlers making Kevin Nash aka "Diesel" look like a million dollars but in two very different ways. I voted Michaels ONLY because Michaels has the total package in terms of giving a good match which will never disappoint, his innovative moves, good promo's (remember his heartbreak Hotel segment back in 1994-1995 not to mention all the DX stuff), etc. Respect from the locker room and sheer wrestling ability definately goes to Hart.
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I think Bret had better guys to work with. Hennig, Owen etc...even a guy like Backlund who was well past his prime was better than 95% of the roster. I agree that Shawn was more versatile. I couldn't see Bret having a good match in a Hell in a Cell. Shawn definitley was a better bumper.
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I think Bret had better guys to work with. Hennig, Owen etc...even a guy like Backlund who was well past his prime was better than 95% of the roster. I agree that Shawn was more versatile. I couldn't see Bret having a good match in a Hell in a Cell. Shawn definitley was a better bumper.
Bullseye.
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Best there was, is, or ever will be! ( ;D ) My vote goes to Bret... In everything except career, i think Shawn had a "better" career than Bret did...
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Today also was the 1 year anniversary of
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Today also was the 1 year anniversary of
Wonder if they got the card I sent.
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;D
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Wonder if they got the card I sent.
I'm pitching Vince an evil mail man gimmick.
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Today also was the 1 year anniversary of
Has it been that long already? Man how time flies.
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shawn.
and I'm Canadian LOL
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bret,by far shawn was flashier,but bret had more skill and a better career.,
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Their both great in their own respective way. It all depends on what type of match your looking for. I like them both and could watch any of their matches over and over.
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Shawn was all about the show whereas Bret was all about the match. I appreciated the emphasis being on the match even though a great buildup was necessary in most occasions so i would always pick Bret over Shawn. He was never the best on the mic even though his promo's improved with time (probably due to being the face of WWF when he was required to cut promos all the time) but the one consistency was his ability to have a brilliant match with men of all sizes, strengths and experience.
I just hated Shawn's attitude towards everyone, theres a time and place for crap like that but he always made a point of rubbing it peoples faces that he was #1. The whole "get out of my ring" scenario cemented my distaste of the man.
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Sometimes I wonder if Bret’s and Shawn’s characters were what they wanted and tried to be in real life.
Bret seemed more down to earth inside and outside the ring.
Yes, he had his faults - as does everyone.
But, basically, he seemed like a genuinely good person.
I get the impression that Shawn tried playing the mouthy little runt/prick as often as he could get away with…Syracuse being one of the times he could not.
I never got into Shawn’s kayfabe character, and if that is how he is in real life (don‘t simply rely on what his detractors say), he’s not someone I’d sit down and have a beer with.
It sounds as though HBK was lucky to have some “big-bastard” friends to watch his back when he screwed up.
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Sometimes I wonder if Bret’s and Shawn’s characters were what they wanted and tried to be in real life.
Bret seemed more down to earth inside and outside the ring.
Yes, he had his faults - as does everyone.
But, basically, he seemed like a genuinely good person.
I get the impression that Shawn tried playing the mouthy little runt/prick as often as he could get away with…Syracuse being one of the times he could not.
I never got into Shawn’s kayfabe character, and if that is how he is in real life (don‘t simply rely on what his detractors say), he’s not someone I’d sit down and have a beer with.
It sounds as though HBK was lucky to have some “big-bastard” friends to watch his back when he screwed up.
That goes along w/ what I was posting to Playboy in another thread.....the whole "keep the character as close to you are in real life" idea that I first heard Arn talk about many years ago. Bret and Shawn are just two of many, many examples of it.
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That goes along w/ what I was posting to Playboy in another thread.....the whole "keep the character as close to you are in real life" idea that I first heard Arn talk about many years ago. Bret and Shawn are just two of many, many examples of it.
Foley once said that the best/most realistic on-air characters are often merely extensions of the people portraying them.
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Foley once said that the best/most realistic on-air characters are often merely extensions of the people portraying them.
No doubt. i remember Arn talking about that in his book, in 2000. Not sure if he was the first one to say it, but I agree 100%.
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Foley once said that the best/most realistic on-air characters are often merely extensions of the people portraying them.
I'll never forget that night he won the world title for the first time on Raw when he started doing laps around the ring, lol....and i'll never forget that RR card when the Rock won the title back after handcuffing Foley and hitting him with a chair about 25 times in the aisle way...OUCH!
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...and i'll never forget that RR card when the Rock won the title back after handcuffing Foley and hitting him with a chair about 25 times in the aisle way...OUCH!
According to Foley, there was a lot of legit heat between the two of them because of that incident.
Apparently, they'd agreed on about seven shots...but, in the heat of battle, 7 turned into something like 22.
After learning of Mick's account, I laughed briefly and then felt pity when watching the match again and seeing Mick trying to move away from Rock, who simply refused to let up.
At one point, Mick turned his back to Rock, and Rocky stepped around to front and bashed him again!
I can understand getting caught up in the heat of the moment, but that still seems damn inconsiderate.
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According to Foley, there was a lot of legit heat between the two of them because of that incident.
Apparently, they'd agreed on about seven shots...but, in the heat of battle, 7 turned into something like 22.
After learning of Mick's account, I laughed briefly and then felt pity when watching the match again and seeing Mick trying to move away from Rock, who simply refused to let up.
At one point, Mick turned his back to Rock, and Rocky stepped around to front and bashed him again!
I can understand getting caught up in the heat of the moment, but that still seems damn inconsiderate.
In Beyond The Mat, they showed Foley getting stitched up backstage after that indident and he actually thanked the Rock for a great match and said that tose extra chair shots made the match even better.
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In Beyond The Mat, they showed Foley getting stitched up backstage after that indident and he actually thanked the Rock for a great match and said that tose extra chair shots made the match even better.
Yeah, but I don't think Mick was thinking too straight immediately followin that match...lol!
I think it was when Blaustein showed him the footage after the fact, and when he saw his family's reaction, etc. that Mick got a bit pissed.
Also, I'd have to go back & find it, but Mick wrote about a conversation he had with his wife prior to the triple threat match (or whatever that year's Mania main event was), in which he & Rock were participants: something along the lines of, "Don't expect this match to be anything fantastic."
He attributed this statement to "philosophical differences" he was having with "one of the participants."
The reader had little reason to believe he was referring to anyone other than Johnson.
:-\
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The thing about Rock is that he isn't anything incredible as an in-ring performer.....adequate, but none of his matches really jump out at you....but he has good in-ring psychology and of course great mic work to build heat for the match.
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The thing about Rock is that he isn't anything incredible as an in-ring performer.....adequate, but none of his matches really jump out at you....but he has good in-ring psychology and of course great mic work to build heat for the match.
Sure, he had a good look, charisma, and drew money.
The last one is the most important.
The fact that he's been gone for so long will also add a ton to his appeal.
Also, as someone else mentioned, it'd be nice if this will usher in an edgier/more interesting product.
I think there's a good chance they'll even work Austin into this at some point - he's already doing the TE spot.
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Sure, he had a good look, charisma, and drew money.
The last one is the most important.
The fact that he's been gone for so long will also add a ton to his appeal.
Also, as someone else mentioned, it'd be nice if this will usher in an edgier/more interesting product.
I think there's a good chance they'll even work Austin into this at some point - he's already doing the TE spot.
I think Austin might even do something at Mania. Would jumpstart the TE show.
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Yeah, but I don't think Mick was thinking too straight immediately followin that match...lol!
I think it was when Blaustein showed him the footage after the fact, and when he saw his family's reaction, etc. that Mick got a bit pissed.
Also, I'd have to go back & find it, but Mick wrote about a conversation he had with his wife prior to the triple threat match (or whatever that year's Mania main event was), in which he & Rock were participants: something along the lines of, "Don't expect this match to be anything fantastic."
He attributed this statement to "philosophical differences" he was having with "one of the participants."
The reader had little reason to believe he was referring to anyone other than Johnson.
:-\
He didn't even know where the locker room was...lol...he had to have Brisco and Patterson escort him in the right direction....and they say wrestling is ALL FAKE ;D
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He didn't even know where the locker room was...lol...he had to have Brisco and Patterson escort him in the right direction....and they say wrestling is ALL FAKE ;D
You know, when you consider all of the multiple (KNOWN) concussions that Foley's sustained over his career, it kind of weakens the whole argument that Benoit's family makes in regards to repeated head trauma essentially causing him to kill his family.
I guess it's easier to blame concussions because it allows them to ultimately blame the old man.
So, Chris committed a double-murder and suicide...
Hmm...
There's GOT to be a way we can pin this on Vince!!
:-\
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You know, when you consider all of the multiple (KNOWN) concussions that Foley's sustained over his career, it kind of weakens the whole argument that Benoit's family makes in regards to repeated head trauma essentially causing him to kill his family.
I guess it's easier to blame concussions because it allows them to ultimately blame the old man.
So, Chris committed a double-murder and suicide...
Hmm...
There's GOT to be a way we can pin this on Vince!!
:-\
Very true. And look at many other sports where guys suffer multiple concusions during their careers. Benoit obviously had some serious mental issues, whether they were affected by concussions, is not VKM's fault. Plus the VAST majority of Benoits concussions probably came before he was even in the WWF.
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Very true. And look at many other sports where guys suffer multiple concusions during their careers. Benoit obviously had some serious mental issues, whether they were affected by concussions, is not VKM's fault. Plus the VAST majority of Benoits concussions probably came before he was even in the WWF.
If I was Michael Benoit, I wouldn't want to believe my son was a cold-blooded murderer, either.
But, when it's known that your son personally murdered his wife and little boy, and you're going to blame SOMEONE ELSE for the actions HE COMMITTED, then you'd better have DAMN, GOOD FUCKING EVIDENCE to back that claim!!!
I'm sorry, but the explanation they offer is too non-sequitur in my opinion, and it's not enough to convince me.
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If I was Michael Benoit, I wouldn't want to believe my son was a cold-blooded murderer, either.
But, when it's known that your son personally murdered his wife and little boy, and you're going to blame SOMEONE ELSE for the actions HE COMMITTED, then you'd better have DAMN, GOOD FUCKING EVIDENCE to back that claim!!!
I'm sorry, but the explanation they offer is too non-sequitur in my opinion, and it's not enough to convince me.
i agree. i can understand the pain and not wanting to put the blame on your son, but c'mon....to force it upon someone else, when it was his family, mom and dad, who should have really noticed a difference and gotten him some help. I'm sure Nancy was probably just trying to get thru the days at that point..... his parents also raised him, so of course they don't want to think it was anything they did, or didn't do, that could have caused it.
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You know, when you consider all of the multiple (KNOWN) concussions that Foley's sustained over his career, it kind of weakens the whole argument that Benoit's family makes in regards to repeated head trauma essentially causing him to kill his family.
I guess it's easier to blame concussions because it allows them to ultimately blame the old man.
So, Chris committed a double-murder and suicide...
Hmm...
There's GOT to be a way we can pin this on Vince!!
:-\
I think the "concussion" theory is bullshit. It is a clever way for the Benoit family to hide the fact that their son is a murderer. If concussions cause people to get demincia and turn them into murderers, the whole NFL would be sitting on death row right now.
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First off, Bret is my all-time favorite wrestler, so I'm totally biased. The thing that stood out to me in the Bret vs Shawn question is selling. Bret made everyone he wrestled look good. He sold like he was legit hurt, it was never cartoony. Some of my favorite Bret matches are ones he lost, because he built the other guy, while still managing to make himself look like gold.
Shawn pulled fantastic moves and was dang entertaining to watch, but I never felt like he sold another guy throughout the match. Just my 2 cents.
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Shawn pulled fantastic moves and was dang entertaining to watch, but I never felt like he sold another guy throughout the match.
Hulkster agrees:
;D ;D
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Hulkster agrees:
;D ;D
See, overselling is the same as no-selling in my book.
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See, overselling is the same as no-selling in my book.
Oh, it was a total mockery on HBK's part.
At least, that's how it appeared to me, and knowing some of the bitch moves that Shawn has made over the years, it's completely believable
It's just your post made me think of this clip, which is still kind of funny.
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See, overselling is the same as no-selling in my book.
You think it was a mockery? Michaels always took a chop or a punch and did ten summersaults and landed outside the ring from anyone he ever wrestled.
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i didn't think it looked all that bad.....but if Shawn was going to do that oversell for anyone to try to make a point, I'm SURE glad it was Hogan... ;D
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You think it was a mockery? Michaels always took a chop or a punch and did ten summersaults and landed outside the ring from anyone he ever wrestled.
Maybe it looked like a mockery due to Hogan's (lack of) offense. ;D
As with most things, there’s a story to this.
And, as with most things, I don’t know how accurate it is, but…
Supposedly, the original deal was for HBK to job to Hogan in this match, with the understanding that Shawn would go over in the rematch.
Prior to this match (above clip), Hogan began complaining of back problems and decided to take time off from action following that night’s event.
Shawn took that as an insult (after all, not putting people over is his gimmick), and decided to do a little overselling to get even a bit.
He could always make the argument that he was just going high for Hogan out of respect, but many people feel this match was a mockery.
From what Bret has written & said, Hogan also has a history of not wanting to put certain top guys over.
This, IMO, is what sets guys like Rock, Taker, & Bret apart from the Hogan's and HBK's.
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Maybe it looked like a mockery due to Hogan's (lack of) offense. ;D
As with most things, there’s a story to this.
And, as with most things, I don’t know how accurate it is, but…
Supposedly, the original deal was for HBK to job to Hogan in this match, with the understanding that Shawn would go over in the rematch.
Prior to this match (above clip), Hogan began complaining of back problems and decided to take time off from action following that night’s event.
Shawn took that as an insult (after all, not putting people over is his gimmick), and decided to do a little overselling to get even a bit.
He could always make the argument that he was just going high for Hogan out of respect, but many people feel this match was a mockery.
From what Bret has written & said, Hogan also has a history of not wanting to put certain top guys over.
This, IMO, is what sets guys like Rock, Taker, & Bret apart from the Hogan's and HBK's.
I agree with your last statement. Being raised on the NWA where EVERYBODY put people over, I think it had a huge effect on me when Hogan went to th WWF and put nobody over. To me it just gave the product a corny "you know the routine" feel. Granted at that point it was more VKM's idea than Hogan's......but wow did those two create a monster.
What annoys me about HBK is that he really didn't need to do that crap. Much like Flair, he was going to be over either way. I think his was more of him just being a prick because he could, kinda thing. I really don't think h needed to do it to keep his spot on the roster. His talent was undeniable.
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I agree with your last statement. Being raised on the NWA where EVERYBODY put people over, I think it had a huge effect on me when Hogan went to th WWF and put nobody over. To me it just gave the product a corny "you know the routine" feel. Granted at that point it was more VKM's idea than Hogan's......but wow did those two create a monster.
What annoys me about HBK is that he really didn't need to do that crap. Much like Flair, he was going to be over either way. I think his was more of him just being a prick because he could, kinda thing. I really don't think h needed to do it to keep his spot on the roster. His talent was undeniable.
I love when Vince used to always talk about the "time-honored traditions" of wrestling - especially back around the '97 SS.
Do you know how many traditions the old man broke?
:-\
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I love when Vince used to always talk about the "time-honored traditions" of wrestling - especially back around the '97 SS.
Do you know how many traditions the old man broke?
:-\
I have always felt the VKM has a complex in that he enjoys what wrestling brings him (power, money, etc...) but just loathes the fans and industry as a whole. Almost like he has some self-hatred issues. I think its why he always tested exactly what he could say or get away with in the business. In other words, no way in hell ole Vince would be promoting to 200 fans at the local Moose's Lodge in some small town simply for the love of the sport.....
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I want to see what happens when the old man retires and Stef and HHH take over....
Vinnie Mac is already in his mid sixties. He can't run the ship forever and do you really think that Triple H and Stephanie have the know-how and vision that Vince and his father had?
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I want to see what happens when the old man retires and Stef and HHH take over....
Vinnie Mac is already in his mid sixties. He can't run the ship forever and do you really think that Triple H and Stephanie have the know-how and vision that Vince and his father had?
God, in Vince Jr's case, I sure hope not !!!! ;D Perhaps they could get it back to something i would want to watch on occasion....
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God, in Vince Jr's case, I sure hope not !!!! ;D Perhaps they could get it back to something i would want to watch on occasion....
I think you will see a ressurection of the territories again.
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I think you will see a ressurection of the territories again.
PLEASE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! x 100000000000000000000000 0000
;D
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PLEASE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! x 100000000000000000000000 0000
;D
It'll happen. Sooner or later.
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I think you will see a ressurection of the territories again.
I respectfully disagree.
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I don't think the WWE will buckle but I highly doubt that they will do the same business that they did when Vince Jr was running the ship.
According to the WWE creative team, Triple H as of right now is set to face the Undertaker at WM in a streak vs career match to "avenge" the retirement of his best friend HBK last year. I highly doubt that they will end the Undertaker's streak and Triple H was set to take on a backstage role in the company. Who knows though, maybe HBK will come in and interfere in the match as a one time thing. Anything can happen.
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WWE will never be as big as it was...... complete death of kayfabe, rise of MMA, etc... have all hurt it. Just like Heenan said on that interview, it will "never be the same." And i think the internet has had a huge negative effect on it as well. I can remember thinking it was SO cool in the mid 90's when i found on the "smart" websites, backstage stories, etc... but in the long run, i think it will prove to be a huge factor in why it will never be the same.
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WWE will never be as big as it was...... complete death of kayfabe, rise of MMA, etc... have all hurt it. Just like Heenan said on that interview, it will "never be the same." And i think the internet has had a huge negative effect on it as well. I can remember thinking it was SO cool in the mid 90's when i found on the "smart" websites, backstage stories, etc... but in the long run, i think it will prove to be a huge factor in why it will never be the same.
The WWE has gotten smart by putting out fake stories and things on the net. For example, The Rock's comeback was kept such a secret that he was brought in the arena through the back door and hidding in a secluded area locker room all to himself until it was time to come out.
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The WWE has gotten smart by putting out fake stories and things on the net. For example, The Rock's comeback was kept such a secret that he was brought in the arena through the back door and hidding in a secluded area locker room all to himself until it was time to come out.
Thats good and the only way they will be able to get any sort of excitement is doing things like that.
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WWE will never be as big as it was...... complete death of kayfabe, rise of MMA, etc... have all hurt it. Just like Heenan said on that interview, it will "never be the same." And i think the internet has had a huge negative effect on it as well. I can remember thinking it was SO cool in the mid 90's when i found on the "smart" websites, backstage stories, etc... but in the long run, i think it will prove to be a huge factor in why it will never be the same.
And, that echoes my feelings about seeing territories start up again.
The original territories were built on kayfabe and other outdated premises.
A big reason those qualities became dated is that, when Vince modernized his product, he ultimately modernized the entire industry.
You can’t reverse evolution.
You can’t recreate kayfabe after you smarten up the public.
Also, nothing means the same as it did years ago.
The fans have evolved.
They’re more demanding - primarily because they’ve seen just about everything within the realm of human possibility.
The fact that fans are smart, as well as desensitized to almost everything now, makes it damn near impossible for anyone to get heat.
The qualities that made the old territories work are obsolete.
I find it believable that we’ll see some smaller outfits pop up - orgainizations that are some degree bigger than your typical indy promotion.
But, I don’t think these new-version “territories” will serve the same ends as their original incarnations, because the old recipe can never be used again.
The same things that took wrestling to its greatest heights also killed it.
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And, that echoes my feelings about seeing territories start up again.
The original territories were built on kayfabe and other outdated premises.
A big reason those qualities became dated is that, when Vince modernized his product, he ultimately modernized the entire industry.
You can’t reverse evolution.
You can’t recreate kayfabe after you smarten up the public.
Also, nothing means the same as it did years ago.
The fans have evolved.
They’re more demanding - primarily because they’ve seen just about everything within the realm of human possibility.
The fact that fans are smart, as well as desensitized to almost everything now, makes it damn near impossible for anyone to get heat.
The qualities that made the old territories work are obsolete.
I find it believable that we’ll see some smaller outfits pop up - orgainizations that are some degree bigger than your typical indy promotion.
But, I don’t think these new-version “territories” will serve the same ends as their original incarnations, because the old recipe can never be used again.
The same things that took wrestling to its greatest heights also killed it.
Very well put. I've never followed closely, but what is the industry like in Japan now? They always took it so seriously, but now with kayfabe being destroyed, I wonder if they have changed as well?
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Very well put. I've never followed closely, but what is the industry like in Japan now? They always took it so seriously, but now with kayfabe being destroyed, I wonder if they have changed as well?
Thanks.
Japan was always different.
I honestly don’t know what it’s like now, but 15-30 years ago, the fans didn’t care so much about heels and babyfaces; they cheered the action and performance.
I think the Japanese fans were serious in that they wanted a good, solid, realistic product.
If you did something hokey, they’d literally laugh at you.
Dynamite claims someone over there warned him not to do ball shots because they were obviously fake and the fans would fart on it.
Anyway, in regards to your question, I don’t know that kayfabe ever mattered all that much in Japan - at least, in the sense it did here.
They appreciated different aspects of the art, and I don’t know that the "end of kayfabe" has really diminished their perception of the show.
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HBK all the way.
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In a new interview with The UK Sun, former WWE star Chris Jericho had the following to say concerning who he thinks is the best wrestler of all-time:
"The best way to put it is that Shawn IS the Hall of Fame.
There's nobody that has ever been in the business that deserves to be in the Hall of Fame more than Shawn Michaels. That includes Ric Flair, Hulk Hogan, The Rock, Steve Austin or anybody else.
Shawn is the epitome of what the Hall of Fame is because to me he is the best performer of all time. He is not even close to anybody else.
You can debate it with me until the cows come home — you can say all you want. You can give me all the facts and figures, it's not going to change my mind.
I'm so excited that he is in the Hall of Fame, but it's essential that he be in there. If he wasn't it would be a waste of time."
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In a new interview with The UK Sun, former WWE star Chris Jericho had the following to say concerning who he thinks is the best wrestler of all-time:
"The best way to put it is that Shawn IS the Hall of Fame.
There's nobody that has ever been in the business that deserves to be in the Hall of Fame more than Shawn Michaels. That includes Ric Flair, Hulk Hogan, The Rock, Steve Austin or anybody else.
Shawn is the epitome of what the Hall of Fame is because to me he is the best performer of all time. He is not even close to anybody else.
You can debate it with me until the cows come home — you can say all you want. You can give me all the facts and figures, it's not going to change my mind.
I'm so excited that he is in the Hall of Fame, but it's essential that he be in there. If he wasn't it would be a waste of time."
I'm a big HBK (in ring and on the mic) fan.....but I wouldn't got that far. As purely an in-ring performer, he probably is the best of all-time, but the HOF isn't just about that, IMO.
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I'm a big HBK (in ring and on the mic) fan.....but I wouldn't got that far. As purely an in-ring performer, he probably is the best of all-time, but the HOF isn't just about that, IMO.
Exactly!
The HOF is also about former baseball managers and guys who used to come to the ring with a parrot on their shoulders.
FTR - I should have added the disclaimer that the above views are solely Y2J's and do not neccessarily reflect aaaaaaaaaaaaaanybody's on this board. ;D
But, I'm with you.
Shawn was good, but that praise goes a bit far for me.
I'd like to see Jericho in the HOF someday.
He was an excellent performer on all levels.