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Getbig Main Boards => Politics and Political Issues Board => Topic started by: Soul Crusher on June 21, 2012, 09:42:53 AM
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dont fucking post another youtube video, 33. please.
i took the time to point out why all 4 of your main points are flawed. you aren't going to respond to them.?
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dont fucking post another youtube video, 33. please.
i took the time to point out why all 4 of your main points are flawed. you aren't going to respond to them.?
You are a lying sack of shit and a pathological liar and a fraud. You are a dildo and a gag ball for obama.
So fucking sad what you have become, a trolling liar.
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Human Events Blog
No, Operation Wide Receiver Does Not Excuse Obama Or Holder
By:John Hayward
10/7/2011 03:59 PM
After a long period of resolutely ignoring Operation Fast and Furious, the bulk of the mainstream media has been dragged into covering the “gun walking” scandal by the charges of perjury directed at Attorney General Eric Holder. Flailing around for something they can spin, liberals have suddenly become very interested in Operation Wide Receiver, a gun walking program from the Bush era. Longtime observers of the Obama scandal have long been camped out on Operation Wide Receiver’s front porch with a bowl of Halloween candy, knowing it was only a matter of time before the Left showed up.
The L.A. Times, which has provided excellent coverage of the rapidly evolving Fast and Furious scandal, is curiously negligent in explaining Wide Receiver to its readers:
The Times reported from Washington on Monday that the Bush administration managed a program similar to Fast and Furious in 2006-07. Mexican President Felipe Calderon took office in December 2006.
In that program, dubbed Wide Receiver, weapons were allowed into Mexico, just as later occurred in Operation Fast and Furious in 2009 and 2010, The Times reported. About 2,000 weapons were "walked" in Mexico and later showed up at scores of crime scenes, Mexican officials have said.
The Monday report from the L.A. Times didn’t really say anything about Wide Receiver at all, beyond mentioning its name:
In the emails that the department turned over to congressional investigators, Justice Department officials last October discussed both the Fast and Furious gun-trafficking surveillance operation in Phoenix and a separate investigation from 2006 and 2007 called Operation Wide Receiver. In Wide Receiver, which took place in Tucson, firearms also were acquired by illegal straw purchasers and lost in Mexico, the emails say.
The Associated Press made a much more explicit attempt to claim Wide Receiver was essentially identical to Fast and Furious, meaning the Bush Administration was walking guns just like Obama:
The federal government under the Bush administration ran an operation that allowed hundreds of guns to be transferred to suspected arms traffickers — the same tactic that congressional Republicans have criticized President Barack Obama's administration for using, two federal law enforcement officials said Tuesday.
Rep. Darrell Issa, R-Calif., Sen. Chuck Grassley, R-Iowa, and other Republicans have been hammering the Obama Justice Department over the practice known as "letting guns walk." The congressional target has been Operation Fast and Furious, which was designed to track small-time gun buyers at several Phoenix-area gun shops up the chain to make cases against major weapons traffickers. In the process, federal agents lost track of many of the more than 2,000 guns linked to the operation.
When Bush, a Republican, was president, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives in Tucson, Ariz., used a similar enforcement tactic in a program it called Operation Wide Receiver. The fact that there were two such ATF investigations years apart in separate administrations raises the possibility that agents in still other cases may have allowed guns to "walk."
The Washington Post packs its spin right into the headline: “Earlier ATF Gun Operation ‘Wide Receiver’ Used Same Tactics As ‘Fast and Furious.’”
Operation Wide Receiver came to light when Rep. Darryl Issa (R-Calif.) and Sen. Charles E. Grassley (R-Iowa) released new documents and e-mails this week which they said showed that although Attorney General Eric H. Holder Jr. told Congress in May that he had just learned about Fast and Furious, he had known for about 10 months.
That alleged discrepancy led some Republican lawmakers to accuse Holder of perjury. They have pounded on Holder over Fast and Furious, in some cases calling for his resignation.Their investigation of the program has led to the reassignment of the former ATF director and others, and the resignation of the U.S. attorney in Arizona.
But Wide Receiver, conducted in the Bush administration, has not received a lot of attention. According to Justice spokeswoman Tracy Schmaler, some of the e-mails used in the attempt to discredit Holder were referring to the Tucson case, Wide Receiver.
More specifically, Schmaler said that when the e-mails mention “guns walking,” they are referring to the 2006-07 Tucson case, Operation Wide Receiver. Schmaler said neither of the officials knew about guns walking in the Fast and Furious case.
(Emphasis mine.) Of course, “some” emails referring to Wide Receiver has absolutely no logical bearing on other emails referring specifically to Fast and Furious. I’m sure the next Republican Attorney General can count on the same kind of helpful spin and misdirection from the Washington Post.
Courtesy of Jim Shepherd at The Outdoor Wire, with a hat tip to Bob Owens at Pajamas Media, here are a few things the media is curiously forgetting to tell audiences about Operation Wide Receiver, which ran during the Bush years of 2006 and 2007 – and was indeed a bad idea, but not a monstrous horror like the Obama gun walking programs:
1. Wide Receiver was less than one-quarter the size of Fast and Furious, involving about 500 guns. About 450 guns made it across the border into Mexico. Not only was Fast and Furious much larger, but it was only one of several gun walking operations launched by the Obama Administration. In fact, intrepid CBS reporter Sharyl Attkisson says she has “found allegations of gun walking in at least 10 cities in five states.”
2. Unlike the Obama Administration programs, there actually was a serious attempt made to track the Wide Receiver weapons. Some of them were fitted with radio tracking devices. The cartel gun buyers figured out how to defeat the tracking system by driving around in circles, until the tracking planes ran out of fuel and were forced to return to base. Also, some of the tracking devices were damaged when ATF agents improperly inserted them into the guns.
By contrast, one of the signature features of Obama gun walking is that absolutely no effort to track the guns was ever in place. ATF agents have testified they were expressly ordered to stand down when they tried to follow the cartel straw purchasers. Whatever mistakes were made in Operation Wide Receiver, there’s no way to argue that Operation Fast and Furious was not much worse… because they should have learned from what happened in Wide Receiver.
3. And by “they” I mean “Special Agent In Charge Bill Newell.” That’s right – the same Phoenix ATF supervisor who became famous during the investigation of Fast and Furious was involved with Operation Wide Receiver. He’s also the ATF agent that originally told Congress that he mentioned gun walking in a roundabout way to his old buddy Kevin O’Reilly of the White House national security staff, who he communicates with maybe three or four times a year… only to be exposed as a liar when the same document dump that put AG Holder in jeopardy of perjury charges revealed a constant stream of emails between Newell and O’Reilly, lasting over a month.
4. Operation Wide Receiver was, by all accounts, shut down after its weapons dropped off the grid, and the ATF realized it had blundered. Operation Fast and Furious was only shut down because two of its weapons were discovered at the scene of U.S. Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry’s murder. According to congressional testimony, the Terry shooting - along with the mistaken suspicion that Tucson mass murderer Jared Loughner might have been packing a Fast and Furious gun – panicked top ATF brass into halting its gun walking operations.
5. The Obama Justice Department cobbled together significant inter-agency co-operation for its huge gun walking programs. As Kurt Hofmann of the Gun Rights Examiner notes, “At this point, we don’t seem to have any evidence that earlier ‘gunwalking’ involved the FBI, the DEA, DHS, the State Department, the IRS, and even the White House Security Council.”
6. And, of course, there was no massive cover-up of Wide Receiver. No senior Administration officials committed perjury to distance themselves from it. The ATF was not exactly advertising the existence of the operation, or its unhappy conclusion, but that’s very different from the thick stone wall Obama and his people tried to build around their far larger and deadlier operations.
In fact, a confidential informant named Mike Detty, who participated in Wide Receiver as a gun dealer, specifically told David Codrea of the Gun Rights Examiner that the Bush Administration was not involved in the earlier gun walking program:
The AP story said that under Bush this case was never prosecuted and it took the Obama administration to find this Bush debacle and prosecute.
The truth is that the first two AUSA's assigned to this case declined to prosecute it because ATF, ASAC, SAC and above, lied to him and told him that the guns were being followed on the other side of the border. One AUSA told me, "Why would I take this case to court when I'd have to sacrifice my integrity and professional credibility because ATF screwed up so badly?"
There you have it. It had nothing to do with Bush or even DOJ at that point. ATF decision makers made the decision to devote 3 years worth of resources on a case based on a lie.
(Emphasis mine.) In summary, Operation Wide Receiver was a small-scale botched sting operation, in which a foolish, but faintly plausible, plan to track straw gun buyers to their criminal customers went terribly wrong. The Obama Administration used this disaster as a template, radically increased its scale, and turned it into something else altogether.
Far from letting the Obama Administration “off the hook” because “Bush did it too,” an understanding of the full Operation Wide Receiver story makes the Obama scandal worse.
http://www.humanevents.com/2011/10/07/no-operation-wide-receiver-does-not-excuse-obama-or-holder
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Just curious, 333, you do know that if we had a Republican President, Issa wouldn't have said a word about F&F right?
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Wide Receiver" Wasn't Gunwalking Like Fast and Furious Is Gunwalking
http://minx.cc/?post=323260
Sheryl Aktinson, one of the only major media reporters even covering Fast and Furious, alleged that "Wide Receiver," a Bush era program, was a "gunwalking" program in the same sense that Fast and Furious was.
But was it?
Bob Owens, notes that Wide Receiver actually involved surveillance -- or at least attempted surveillance. It's just that the surveillance failed.
In Operation Wide Receiver, Tucson agents allowed the sales of more than 500 firearms to known straw purchasers. Like Gunrunner/Fast and Furious, the operation apparently backfired.
Some firearms in Wide Receiver were equipped with RFID tracking devices. In Wide Receiver, it seems the illegal purchasers seemed more than slightly knowledgeable of the ATF and how to take their aerial and electronic tracking procedures down.
Knowing the time aloft numbers for virtually all planes used in government surveillance, the buyers had a simple method of getting their purchases across the border undetected. They simply drove four-hour loops around the area.
As surveillance planes were forced to return to base for refueling, the smugglers simply turned and sprinted their cargo across the border.
The RFID tags also turned out to be problematic.
Rather than making large enough holes for the tags to be laid out inside weapons, agents force-fit them into the rifles.
That cramming caused the antennae to be folded, reducing the effective range of the tags. And an already short battery life (36-48 hours maximum) meant that should purchasers allow the firearms to sit, the tracking devices eliminated themselves.
In addition, Wide Receiver was conducted in cooperation with the Mexican authorities -- not kept secret from them, as a rogue American agency conducted a murderous covert operation in a neighboring sovereign country.
Now, Wide Receiver failed. It all seems like a pretty dumb operation in hindsight. But you can see how it could have been predicted to work -- if the surveillance works, you've nabbed your bad guys.
In Fast and Furious, there was no surveillance.
So what was the goal?
In Wide Receiver, the guns "walked" without surveillance due to technical failure of the RFID devices and the gun-runners outwitting the ATF.
Someone in the administration please tell me a story wherein Fast and Furious was also a botch, a failure -- rather than having proceeded as planned.
I don't want to think that -- that seems a little farfetched -- but unless the administration can explain how their plan to let 2000+ guns "walk" into Mexico (without a head's up for Mexican law enforcement) accidentally became a failure, rather than proceeded according to plan, there are going to be serious suspicions about our government's actual motive.
Posted by: Ace at 04:31 PM
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Blaming Bush is not going to work.
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Just curious, 333, you do know that if we had a Republican President, Issa wouldn't have said a word about F&F right?
Instead we'd have Piglosi shrieking like the taut, plastic banshee she is.
Good point! ::)
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Instead we'd have Piglosi shrieking like the taut, plastic banshee she is.
Good point! ::)
True we would.. The vote for contempt was exactly what we expect from our government. All democrats voted no, all republicans voted yes. Had it been a Republican Prez it would have been the exact opposite. It's not about us, it's not about the border agents, it's about politics..
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True we would.. The vote for contempt was exactly what we expect from our government. All democrats voted no, all republicans voted yes. Had it been a Republican Prez it would have been the exact opposite. It's not about us, it's not about the border agents, it's about politics..
Agree - in a sane world the vote would have been unanimous for contempt against holder
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Agree - in a sane world the vote would have been unanimous for contempt against holder
In a sane world, F&F wouldn't have happened
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http://video.foxnews.com/v/1699405835001
Michelle Malkin drops a nuke on that Jesse Jackson whore Tamra Holder
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Bush didn't fire the guy that lost all the guns the first time.
he's the same dude that lost all the guns the 2nd time.
He was not stripped of ability to send guns over the border. In fact, he was given many more guns to lose.
So I'd like to hear 33 tell us why Bush didn't fire the guy in 2006/2007... Or why he didn't at the very least say "Dude, you lost 400 guns or whatever... You are no longer allowed to run undercover gun operations.. much less much larger undercover gun operations that are IDENTICAL"..
It's like the churches that just sent the pedo down the road to a new parish every time he gets caught molesting a child. Fire him!
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Just curious, 333, you do know that if we had a Republican President, Issa wouldn't have said a word about F&F right?
Any proof of this? Please provide some evidence to back up your claim.
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Just curious, 333, you do know that if we had a Republican President, Issa wouldn't have said a word about F&F right?
Perhaps, although the main issue now is the AG either lying or covering up misconduct.
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WATCH AND LEARN ASSHOLES
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Any proof of this? Please provide some evidence to back up your claim.
My evidence would be and is circumstancial. On the vote for contempt, it was divided exactly down party lines. All Democrates voting no, all Republicans voting yes. Historically, a party rarely, if ever goes after it's own party members, however it is routine for one party to attack or seek investigations, sanctions, impeachment on the other party... sooooo
Based on what has transpired overe the last 50 yrs, I think a reasonable assumption would be that Issa would not be so tenacious had McCain won and was in office and appointed a Republican AG
You feel differently?
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My evidence would be and is circumstancial. On the vote for contempt, it was divided exactly down party lines. All Democrates voting no, all Republicans voting yes. Historically, a party rarely, if ever goes after it's own party members, however it is routine for one party to attack or seek investigations, sanctions, impeachment on the other party... sooooo
Based on what has transpired overe the last 50 yrs, I think a reasonable assumption would be that Issa would not be so tenacious had McCain won and was in office and appointed a Republican AG
You feel differently?
Yet you agree that had McCain won and Pelosi still SOTH she would be doing the same thing correct?
Either way, this issue needs to be dealt with. the family deserves answers.
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Perhaps, although the main issue now is the AG either lying or covering up misconduct.
I guess it's harder to say "I fuc*ed up" the higher you go, but there is so much value is being able to say it. When you can't or won't say it, you lose credibility and venture into the lying and cover up area. If that happened in this case, love to see him do some jail time
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Yet you agree that had McCain won and Pelosi still SOTH she would be doing the same thing correct?
Either way, this issue needs to be dealt with. the family deserves answers.
Yes and Yes
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I guess it's harder to say "I fuc*ed up" the higher you go, but there is so much value is being able to say it. When you can't or won't say it, you lose credibility and venture into the lying and cover up area. If that happened in this case, love to see him do some jail time
There is also a dead ICE agent - Jamie Zapata who also died w a FnF weapon.
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I guess it's harder to say "I fuc*ed up" the higher you go, but there is so much value is being able to say it. When you can't or won't say it, you lose credibility and venture into the lying and cover up area. If that happened in this case, love to see him do some jail time
This.
Tremendous value in being able to admit your mistakes.
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There is also a dead ICE agent - Jamie Zapata who also died w a FnF weapon.
That is horrible. No doubt. And it should have bearing on the proceedings.. But you and I both know weapons are readily available and had it not been that exact weapon, it would have been another more than likely.
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http://video.foxnews.com/v/1699405835001
Michelle Malkin drops a nuke on that Jesse Jackson whore Tamra Holder
You should have seen what she did to Juan Williams.
BTW, Holder has yet to deny those claims that she's been screwing Jesse Jackson.
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why didn't the Bush DOJ fire the man who lost 400 guns over the mex border in 2006?
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why didn't the Bush DOJ fire the man who lost 400 guns over the mex border in 2006?
Maybe
A.Because an ICE agent didnt die
B.They were making a concentrated effort to track the firearms on BOTH sides of the border
C.Mexican government was part of the operation
D.They pulled the plug as soon as the Op wasn't going to work.
The difference between a failed op, and one so retarded that Agents die, is huge.
The best planning can still fail - but when you do the same thing again, only twice as retarded, and people die, then it becomes a total fuckup.
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why didn't the Bush DOJ fire the man who lost 400 guns over the mex border in 2006?
Show me where they lost 400 guns?
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Show me where they lost 400 guns?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATF_gunwalking_scandal
2006-2007) Detty would sell a total of about 450 guns during the operation.[22] These included AR-15s, semi-automatic AK-pattern rifles, and Colt .38s. The vast majority of the guns were eventually lost as they moved into Mexico.[7][23][25]
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATF_gunwalking_scandal
2006-2007) Detty would sell a total of about 450 guns during the operation.[22] These included AR-15s, semi-automatic AK-pattern rifles, and Colt .38s. The vast majority of the guns were eventually lost as they moved into Mexico.[7][23][25]
Lost is one thing and that was not the intent!
FnF was intentional!
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATF_gunwalking_scandal
2006-2007) Detty would sell a total of about 450 guns during the operation.[22] These included AR-15s, semi-automatic AK-pattern rifles, and Colt .38s. The vast majority of the guns were eventually lost as they moved into Mexico.[7][23][25]
It says eventually lost. How long is eventually? After the Op was shut down?
You said they were lost the 2nd they went over the boarder.
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It says eventually lost. How long is eventually? After the Op was shut down?
You said they were lost the 2nd they went over the boarder.
ah, I see.
So we're now arguing about how fast this dude lost track of 450 guns.
THAT is the crux of your argument. Gotcha. This dickhead deserved to keep his job - and later spearhead the F&F operation on a much larger scale.
Hey, it's cool to say "Bush should have fired his ass" or "He should have been demoted to mail room".
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It says eventually lost. How long is eventually? After the Op was shut down?
You said they were lost the 2nd they went over the boarder.
I'm missing why it matters how long it took to lose the 400 guns... the results would be the same wouldn't it?
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ah, I see.
So we're now arguing about how fast this dude lost track of 450 guns.
THAT is the crux of your argument. Gotcha. This dickhead deserved to keep his job - and later spearhead the F&F operation on a much larger scale.
Hey, it's cool to say "Bush should have fired his ass" or "He should have been demoted to mail room".
Incorrect. I asked you for specifics.
One op that failed due to unforseen problems (and shut down as soon as the failure was apparent) is not the same as an Op planned to fail from the beginning, that cost the life of a US border patrol agent (that wasnt shut down until their cover was blown, rather than when it failed, which was in the PLANNING STAGE).
There was actually an attempt to follow the firearms from WR.
There was NO attempt to follow the firearms for F&F. Hell, there was no PLANNING on following the firearms.
How you think the 2 are even remotely comparable besides the fact that firearms are missing, is beyond me broham.
Thats like looking at a cheescake and a ice cream cake and saying "Well theyre the same, theyre both cakes"
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I'm missing why it matters how long it took to lose the 400 guns... the results would be the same wouldn't it?
My point was that 240 was intentionally lying again. It had nothing really to do with the weapons being lost.
WIKI said the 400 or so guns were lost the minute they crossed the border.
Now this is important, because during WR, they actually were attempting to follow the firearms across the border.
In FF, they were not, so the weapons literally disappeared the moment they crossed.
With 240 trying so hard to draw comparisons between 2 ops that failed for totally different reasons, this becomes important.
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My point was that 240 was intentionally lying again. It had nothing really to do with the weapons being lost.
oh... Cool.
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450 guns were lost in mexico. that dude kept his job. he was allowed to run the next op, where 2000 guns were lost in mexico.
To me, when a guy loses 450 guns, you don't give him the opportunity to lose 2000 guns. That's just me, though.
We don't know what crime those 450 guns were involved with - let's admit, ,F&F was rare to have a rifle with serial numbers DROPPED at scene of crime. Kinda fishy there, to be hoenst.
But back to the point, if an employee loses 450 guns, you don't trust him with 2000 more.
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I'm missing why it matters how long it took to lose the 400 guns... the results would be the same wouldn't it?
Because many were fitted w actual gps devices and there was actual tracing.
the entire goal of FnF was to not trace the weapons until they ended up at a murder scene.
180 is again trolling , lying, shilling, and trying to divert attention away from the stark differences here.
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450 guns were lost in mexico. that dude kept his job. he was allowed to run the next op, where 2000 guns were lost in mexico.
To me, when a guy loses 450 guns, you don't give him the opportunity to lose 2000 guns. That's just me, though.
We don't know what crime those 450 guns were involved with - let's admit, ,F&F was rare to have a rifle with serial numbers DROPPED at scene of crime. Kinda fishy there, to be hoenst.
But back to the point, if an employee loses 450 guns, you don't trust him with 2000 more.
Exactly. And guess what? Holder, Obama, whoever is responsible, gave this man the opportunity to do the same thing again, only 1000x worse. Who's fault is that? The man? Or the people holding his leash?
Thats the point IMHO, and one you dont seem to grasp.
Youre trying to treat the symptom, not the underlying problem.
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ah, I see.
So we're now arguing about how fast this dude lost track of 450 guns.
THAT is the crux of your argument. Gotcha. This dickhead deserved to keep his job - and later spearhead the F&F operation on a much larger scale.
Hey, it's cool to say "Bush should have fired his ass" or "He should have been demoted to mail room".
So what if Bush didn't fire him?
What the hell does that have anything to do with F&F and the Democrats covering for Holder and the President?
Change. Remember that? I thought Dems fancied themselves being BETTER than the GOP.
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Because many were fitted w actual gps devices and there was actual tracing.
the entire goal of FnF was to not trace the weapons until they ended up at a murder scene.
180 is again trolling , lying, shilling, and trying to divert attention away from the stark differences here.
But.... many were not? Any operation where they allow weapons to go into the hands of the cartel is stupid is it not?
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Because many were fitted w actual gps devices and there was actual tracing.
i thought the GPS devices failed due to battery life. They worked in 2006 but failed in 2008, 2009?
Either you are okay with this LEO strategy of losing guns to bad guys over the border - or youre not.
You're not "okay" with it in 2006 because its only 450 guns, and ready to impeach in 2008 because it's 2000 guns.
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450 guns were lost in mexico. that dude kept his job. he was allowed to run the next op, where 2000 guns were lost in mexico.
To me, when a guy loses 450 guns, you don't give him the opportunity to lose 2000 guns. That's just me, though.
We don't know what crime those 450 guns were involved with - let's admit, ,F&F was rare to have a rifle with serial numbers DROPPED at scene of crime. Kinda fishy there, to be hoenst.
But back to the point, if an employee loses 450 guns, you don't trust him with 2000 more.
that is why the program was shut down moron!
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So what if Bush didn't fire him?
What the hell does that have anything to do with F&F and the Democrats covering for Holder and the President?
Change. Remember that? I thought Dems fancied themselves being BETTER than the GOP.
Whats worse? Bush not firing him, or Holder/Obama giving him the thumbs up to do it again on a much more retarded scale?
Giving him the thumbs up for a much more poorly planned, yet much larger operation that already had failed once?
People fuck up. Theyre not always instantly fired. And its not black and white, well "youre ok with WR so youre ok now", thats retarded.
One op was attempted. It botched. They shut it down.
Doing it again? Completely retarded.
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Whats worse? Bush not firing him, or Holder/Obama giving him the thumbs up to do it again on a much more retarded scale?
Giving him the thumbs up for a much more poorly planned, yet much larger operation that already had failed once?
People fuck up. Theyre not always instantly fired. And its not black and white, well "youre ok with WR so youre ok now", thats retarded.
One op was attempted. It botched. They shut it down.
Doing it again? Completely retarded.
180 is so far gone its not funny. And I know why too.
He still is reeling from his 9/11 truth bullshit that he was convinced bush orchestrated and has never been the same since.
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whatever happened on 911, I believe bush was as clueless as the rest of us.
"orchestrated" = a word you learned watching billo and former truther michelle malkin.
you hang on every word alex jones says, except 911, cause you live in NYC. and 'they wouldn't do that'.
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whatever happened on 911, I believe bush was as clueless as the rest of us.
"orchestrated" = a word you learned watching billo and former truther michelle malkin.
you hang on every word alex jones says, except 911, cause you live in NYC. and 'they wouldn't do that'.
no, 10 years later and still not a single shred of evidence pointing to an inside job.
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But.... many were not? Any operation where they allow weapons to go into the hands of the cartel is stupid is it not?
You can argue that in either operation things should have been done differently. That still doesn't justify the President and the Dems protecting Holder, the Dems preventing the Terry family from getting answers and the attorney general refusing to provide all documents and using those same documents as a bargaining chip.
Why is the supposed party of change playing politics now? I thought they were going to get rid of the games and be more TRANSPARENT.
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You can argue that in either operation things should have been done differently. That still doesn't justify the President and the Dems protecting Holder, the Dems preventing the Terry family from getting answers and the attorney general refusing to provide all documents and using those same documents as a bargaining chip.
Why is the supposed party of change playing politics now? I thought they were going to get rid of the games and be more TRANSPARENT.
I'm sorry you were misled into thinking that. It's ALWAYS politics as usual... no matter who is President
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I'm sorry you were misled into thinking that. It's ALWAYS politics as usual... no matter who is President
Eh. I wasn't misled. I voted for McCain knowing that Obama was full of crap.
My posts only repeat the exaggerations made by Obama's campaign in 2008, which clearly induced a few idiots on this board to vote for him AND who will vote for him again even after he has proven to be a failure.
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Eh. I wasn't misled. I voted for McCain knowing that Obama was full of crap.
My posts only repeat the exaggerations made by Obama's campaign in 2008, which clearly induced a few idiots on this board to vote for him AND who will vote for him again even after he has proven to be a failure.
Honestly, the options aren't all that encouraging. Been voting the lesser of two evils for years..
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no, 10 years later and still not a single shred of evidence pointing to an inside job.
we've shown the same guy ran F&F on a much smaller scale in 2006 under Bush and was allowed to keep his job. He lost 450 guns and nobody was busted, right?
No wonder you wanna talk about 911 LMAO. Didn't like how this discussion was going?
F&F happened on a smaller scale under Bush - we just don't know who the guns killed because nobody LEFT ONE SMOKING AT A CRIME SCENE.
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we've shown the same guy ran F&F on a much smaller scale in 2006 under Bush and was allowed to keep his job. He lost 450 guns and nobody was busted, right?
No wonder you wanna talk about 911 LMAO. Didn't like how this discussion was going?
F&F happened on a smaller scale under Bush - we just don't know who the guns killed because nobody LEFT ONE SMOKING AT A CRIME SCENE.
You are really a fucking idiot. I swear 180 - you are a pathological liar and a con man. WR WAS DONE W MEXICO AND SHUT DOWN ONCE THE PROGRAM FAILED!
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Friday, June 22, 2012
Differences between Bush's "Wide Receiver" and Obama's "Fast & Furious" explained for stupid liberals:
Wide Receiver - The number of guns used in the operation from the beginning until the end of the operation was 300
Fast & Furious - The number of guns used in the operation from the beginning until the end of the operation was 2,000
Wide Receiver - Guns were traced with miniature GPS devices inserted inside the guns
Fast & Furious - No tracking devices were used
Wide Receiver - ATF agents were ordered to follow the gun smugglers from the gun store to the US/Mexico border.
Fast & Furious - ATF agents were ordered to stand down and not follow the gun smugglers after they left the gun store
Wide Receiver - Mexican army and police was in the loop about Wide Receiver. They took over the surveillance of the gun smugglers after they crossed with the guns in Mexico.
Fast & Furious - Mexican authorities were kept in the dark by the ATF and the US DOJ. They had no idea about Fast & Furious and the fact that guns provided to gun smugglers by the American authorities were "walked" in Mexico into the hands of drug cartel murderers.
Wide Receiver - When a small number of guns (30-40) were lost due to the malfunctioning GPS tracking devices operation Wide Receiver was immediately aborted and cancelled
Fast and Furious - Operation continued even after ATF and DOJ lost track of all 2,000 guns sold to Mexican drug cartels
Wide Receiver - The operation was planned in such a way the gun smugglers and their cargo were kept under surveillance step by step, from the gun store to the US/Mexico border, across the border into Mexico and to their final destination: the hands of the drug cartel killers. This could have led to arrests made in joint operations by the Mexican authorities and DEA and ATF agents.
Fast & Furious - The operation was planned to let the guns go without any surveillance. Guns were supposed to be recovered at the murder scenes. One of the 150+ murder scenes where Fast & Furious guns were recovered was that of US border patrol agent Brian Terry. So far DOJ and ATF didn't came with any explanation about how they were planning to make arrests of the drug cartel murderers BEFORE THEY KILLED PEOPLE with the Fast & Furious guns, and how they were supposed to do those arrest in Mexico without the Mexican authorities knowing anything about this operation.
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You are really a fucking idiot. I swear 180 - you are a pathological liar and a con man. WR WAS DONE W MEXICO AND SHUT DOWN ONCE THE PROGRAM FAILED!
WR involved the corrupt mexican govt. And the DOJ official that lost all the guns wasn't reprimanded for it.
Dude loses 450 guns across the border to drug gangs - and the US did not dismiss that strategy nor the man that did it. They tried it again, 3 years later.
Your ONLY beef appears to be "we didn't inform Mexico" - and since they're a bunch of corrupts bitches, I'm okay with that. We didn't tell pakistan about the OBL raid either. Sometimes you can't trust a corrupt govt to help you.
33, I didn't know this came down to you being upset about MEX not being notified of a law enforcement operation. Very rude, I agree.
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WR involved the corrupt mexican govt. And the DOJ official that lost all the guns wasn't reprimanded for it.
Dude loses 450 guns across the border to drug gangs - and the US did not dismiss that strategy nor the man that did it. They tried it again, 3 years later.
Your ONLY beef appears to be "we didn't inform Mexico" - and since they're a bunch of corrupts bitches, I'm okay with that. We didn't tell pakistan about the OBL raid either. Sometimes you can't trust a corrupt govt to help you.
33, I didn't know this came down to you being upset about MEX not being notified of a law enforcement operation. Very rude, I agree.
They didnt lose the guns due to incompetence jackass! stop lying. You are a pathological liar and dishonest troll.
The reason the guns went missing was because the tracking devices failed in some of the guns and in others the smugglers figured out a gps device was in the gun and took it out.
Why do you continue to lie and spread such dishonesty and falsehoods?
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They didnt lose the guns due to incompetence jackass! stop lying. You are a pathological liar and dishonest troll.
The reason the guns went missing was because the tracking devices failed in some of the guns and in others the smugglers figured out a gps device was in the gun and took it out.
Why do you continue to lie and spread such dishonesty and falsehoods?
So why on earth did they try it AGAIN in 2008/9 - if that Bush appointed DOJ agent KNEW that the tracking methods would fail?
Who is this dude that decided "hey, we know they're all gonna escape (again) - let's quadruple the # of guns this time?
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and what kinda rocket scientist didn't know that GPS units' batteries would fail? Was he that incompetent not to check their battery life?
Who leaked the intel about the GPS trackers to the gangs? Corrupt govt? no wonder we didn't tell them when we tried it again.
33, if Wide Receiver happened on Obama's watch, you'd be fucking pissed. Those guns didn't go to police, they went to bad guys, and the only reason we don't know about them is because bad guys didn't drop the weapons at the crime scene (as suspect as can be...)
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So why on earth did they try it AGAIN in 2008/9 - if that Bush appointed DOJ agent KNEW that the tracking methods would fail?
Who is this dude that decided "hey, we know they're all gonna escape (again) - let's quadruple the # of guns this time?
They didnt try it again!
WTF are you talking about!
WR and F&F had nothing to do with each other.
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and what kinda rocket scientist didn't know that GPS units' batteries would fail? Was he that incompetent not to check their battery life?
Who leaked the intel about the GPS trackers to the gangs? Corrupt govt? no wonder we didn't tell them when we tried it again.
33, if Wide Receiver happened on Obama's watch, you'd be fucking pissed. Those guns didn't go to police, they went to bad guys, and the only reason we don't know about them is because bad guys didn't drop the weapons at the crime scene (as suspect as can be...)
::) ::)
Just fucking stop. Your lying and dishonesty is revolting.
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They didnt try it again!
WTF are you talking about!
WR and F&F had nothing to do with each other.
They both involved the SAME DOJ agent losing a pile of guns across the Mex border in an attempt to catch bad guys.
"nothing to do with each other"? The same fucking agent did the same fucking thing. Fail the first time, fail the second time.
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::) ::)
Just fucking stop. Your lying and dishonesty is revolting.
dude, when you're pwning my ass in an argument, you are very good at it.
when you run out of arguments, you roll eyes, throw insult, and tell me to stop.
I guess I'm of the belief that Obama/holder belong in jail for FF, but someone should have at the very least been demoted for losing 450 guns back in 2006. You disagree?
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They both involved the SAME DOJ agent losing a pile of guns across the Mex border in an attempt to catch bad guys.
"nothing to do with each other"? The same fucking agent did the same fucking thing. Fail the first time, fail the second time.
WHY DO YOU KEEP LYING?
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dude, when you're pwning my ass in an argument, you are very good at it.
when you run out of arguments, you roll eyes, throw insult, and tell me to stop.
I guess I'm of the belief that Obama/holder belong in jail for FF, but someone should have at the very least been demoted for losing 450 guns back in 2006. You disagree?
Because even when certain facts are pointed out to you on this, with video evidence from actual Obama DOJ officials, you still ignore it and blame bush.
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180 - WILL YOU ADMIT NOW THAT YOU ARE WRONG?
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i can't watch clips at the moment. can you summarize them with several text sentences?
WHy didn't bush remove this guy's ability to lose hundreds of guns? that's all i wanna know.
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WR involved the corrupt mexican govt. And the DOJ official that lost all the guns wasn't reprimanded for it.
Dude loses 450 guns across the border to drug gangs - and the US did not dismiss that strategy nor the man that did it. They tried it again, 3 years later.
Your ONLY beef appears to be "we didn't inform Mexico" - and since they're a bunch of corrupts bitches, I'm okay with that. We didn't tell pakistan about the OBL raid either. Sometimes you can't trust a corrupt govt to help you.
33, I didn't know this came down to you being upset about MEX not being notified of a law enforcement operation. Very rude, I agree.
the strategy itself is f'ng lame
if they were even going to attempt this why not do it with a very small amount of guns first to make sure they can actually implement it and have the guns with some kind of microscopic tracking device and even better give, make sure you give them guns that don't work (I assume that is possible some how)
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the strategy itself is f'ng lame
if they were even going to attempt this why not do it with a very small amount of guns first to make sure they can actually implement it and have the guns with some kind of microscopic tracking device and even better give, make sure you give them guns that don't work (I assume that is possible some how)
I hate the strategy. But - i fault the 2006 DOJ and the 2009 DOJ for it.
Trying to excuse one of them, blaming batteries, etc - but clobbering the program 3 years later (run by the same agent!) Is just plain political buffoonery.
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I hate the strategy. But - i fault the 2006 DOJ and the 2009 DOJ for it.
Trying to excuse one of them, blaming batteries, etc - but clobbering the program 3 years later (run by the same agent!) Is just plain political buffoonery.
isn't that the primary charactertic and tactic of the modern Republican party
I mean that and actively trying to sabotage the economic stability of the country for the sake of personal political gain and to enrich a handful of multinational corporations who have no allegiance at all to this country or it's citizens
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isn't that the primary charactertic and tactic of the modern Republican party
I mean that and actively trying to sabotage the economic stability of the country for the sake of personal political gain and to enrich a handful of multinational corporations who have no allegiance at all to this country or it's citizens
2 dead agents
200 plus dead mexicans
1500 guns still muissing in the hands of the cartels
Program only stopped when whistelblower went forward
Obama/Holder asserting an EP claim over docs.
And you think this is all about nothing?
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2 dead agents
200 plus dead mexicans
they tracked 200+ dead people to the guns? were they all left at the scene?
that seems shady as fck to me. who leaves a rifle at the scene of the crime?
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oh brother,like your racist ass cares about 200 dead mexicans ::)
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they tracked 200+ dead people to the guns? were they all left at the scene?
that seems shady as fck to me. who leaves a rifle at the scene of the crime?
really 240? I posted the fucking map how many times?
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;)
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2 dead agents
200 plus dead mexicans
1500 guns still muissing in the hands of the cartels
Program only stopped when whistelblower went forward
Obama/Holder asserting an EP claim over docs.
And you think this is all about nothing?
when did I say it was about nothing
hasn't the Obama Administration been making arrests and isn't there an ongoing and active investigation as was the intended purpose of this epically stupid program
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were the guns dropped at the crime scene eaach time/ Odd.
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pretty amazing that obama was able to track so many guns to so many places -
yet we don't have a clue where the bush 450 guns went. Odd also.
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were the guns dropped at the crime scene eaach time/ Odd.
no, they were FnF guns involved in shootouts and murders.
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were the guns dropped at the crime scene eaach time/ Odd.
Anyone remember how right wingers couldn't buy enough guns and ammo when Obama first got in office
isn't the right wing CT on this thing supposedly that Obama did this on purpose so that they guns would be used in crimes and then he could somehow point to that as a reason to take away everyones gun in the US?
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Anyone remember how right wingers couldn't buy enough guns and ammo when Obama first got in office
isn't the right wing CT on this thing supposedly that Obama did this on purpose so that they guns would be used in crimes and then he could somehow point to that as a reason to take away everyones gun in the US?
That was exactly the intent. To create a case for the need of AWB2
and guess what? Despite the tens of millions of new gun purchases by legal americans - there has been no surge in crime other than in detroit, chicago and other lawless areas of this country where the peeps reside
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pretty amazing that obama was able to track so many guns to so many places -
yet we don't have a clue where the bush 450 guns went. Odd also.
Yeah. They were tracked or found next to all those bodies by the MEXICAN GOVERNMENT.
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That was exactly the intent. To create a case for the need of AWB2
and guess what? Despite the tens of millions of new gun purchases by legal americans - there has been no surge in crime other than in detroit, chicago and other lawless areas of this country where the peeps reside
and how exactly do you KNOW this was the intent
did one of the voices in your head tell your or was it Glen Beck or Levine etc..
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Yeah. They were tracked or found next to all those bodies by the MEXICAN GOVERNMENT.
oh fuck all that shit. shady as fuck there.
Poor ass country.... they love their guns... lawuless... and they all choose to abandon assault rifles at scenes of crime.
oh i'm calling bullshit. 33, i can't believe you fall for that smokescreen. Probably the mex govt mad that obama's DOJ didn't leak them the intel like Bush's did.
This entire investigation is based upon the good word of the mex govt - jilted because we didn't invovle them on a big gun sting over their border.
Oh jeebus, what a bunch of crap.
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and how exactly do you KNOW this was the intent
did one of the voices in your head tell your or was it Glen Beck or Levine etc..
No, the email from the ATF agent who was asking for the stats to get the long form reporting requirement proves it. Again - you know next to nothing about FnF , just like 180, and expose your ignorance more w every post.
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No, the email from the ATF agent who was asking for the stats to get the long form reporting requirement proves it. Again - you know next to nothing about FnF , just like 180, and expose your ignorance more w every post.
great job - now just post a copy of that email so I can actually understand how that proves your point
Colbert does has done a much better job of explaining it so far
http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/415620/june-20-2012/unraveling-the--fast---furious--scandal
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oh fuck all that shit. shady as fuck there.
Poor ass country.... they love their guns... lawuless... and they all choose to abandon assault rifles at scenes of crime.
oh i'm calling bullshit. 33, i can't believe you fall for that smokescreen. Probably the mex govt mad that obama's DOJ didn't leak them the intel like Bush's did.
This entire investigation is based upon the good word of the mex govt - jilted because we didn't invovle them on a big gun sting over their border.
Oh jeebus, what a bunch of crap.
See! This is what I mean - you get destroyed on all fronts, than then you resort to an unproven CT just to bash bush and kneepad obama.
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great job - now just post a copy of that email so I can actually understand how that proves your point
Colbert does has done a much better job of explaining it so far
http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/415620/june-20-2012/unraveling-the--fast---furious--scandal
Right - a comedian who loves obama. Got it.
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Documents: ATF used "Fast and Furious" to make the case for gun regulations
By Sharyl Attkisson Topics News ,Law and Order . (Credit: CBS)
Documents obtained by CBS News show that the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) discussed using their covert operation "Fast and Furious" to argue for controversial new rules about gun sales.
In Fast and Furious, ATF secretly encouraged gun dealers to sell to suspected traffickers for Mexican drug cartels to go after the "big fish." But ATF whistleblowers told CBS News and Congress it was a dangerous practice called "gunwalking," and it put thousands of weapons on the street. Many were used in violent crimes in Mexico. Two were found at the murder scene of a U.S. Border Patrol agent.
ATF officials didn't intend to publicly disclose their own role in letting Mexican cartels obtain the weapons, but emails show they discussed using the sales, including sales encouraged by ATF, to justify a new gun regulation called "Demand Letter 3". That would require some U.S. gun shops to report the sale of multiple rifles or "long guns." Demand Letter 3 was so named because it would be the third ATF program demanding gun dealers report tracing information.
On July 14, 2010 after ATF headquarters in Washington D.C. received an update on Fast and Furious, ATF Field Ops Assistant Director Mark Chait emailed Bill Newell, ATF's Phoenix Special Agent in Charge of Fast and Furious:
"Bill - can you see if these guns were all purchased from the same (licensed gun dealer) and at one time. We are looking at anecdotal cases to support a demand letter on long gun multiple sales. Thanks."
On Jan. 4, 2011, as ATF prepared a press conference to announce arrests in Fast and Furious, Newell saw it as "(A)nother time to address Multiple Sale on Long Guns issue." And a day after the press conference, Chait emailed Newell: "Bill--well done yesterday... (I)n light of our request for Demand letter 3, this case could be a strong supporting factor if we can determine how many multiple sales of long guns occurred during the course of this case."
This revelation angers gun rights advocates. Larry Keane, a spokesman for National Shooting Sports Foundation, a gun industry trade group, calls the discussion of Fast and Furious to argue for Demand Letter 3 "disappointing and ironic." Keane says it's "deeply troubling" if sales made by gun dealers "voluntarily cooperating with ATF's flawed 'Operation Fast & Furious' were going to be used by some individuals within ATF to justify imposing a multiple sales reporting requirement for rifles."
The Gun Dealers' Quandary
Several gun dealers who cooperated with ATF told CBS News and Congressional investigators they only went through with suspicious sales because ATF asked them to.
Sometimes it was against the gun dealer's own best judgment.
Read the email
In April, 2010 a licensed gun dealer cooperating with ATF was increasingly concerned about selling so many guns. "We just want to make sure we are cooperating with ATF and that we are not viewed as selling to the bad guys," writes the gun dealer to ATF Phoenix officials, "(W)e were hoping to put together something like a letter of understanding to alleviate concerns of some type of recourse against us down the road for selling these items."
Read the email
ATF's group supervisor on Fast and Furious David Voth assures the gun dealer there's nothing to worry about. "We (ATF) are continually monitoring these suspects using a variety of investigative techniques which I cannot go into detail."
Two months later, the same gun dealer grew more agitated.
"I wanted to make sure that none of the firearms that were sold per our conversation with you and various ATF agents could or would ever end up south of the border or in the hands of the bad guys. I guess I am looking for a bit of reassurance that the guns are not getting south or in the wrong hands...I want to help ATF with its investigation but not at the risk of agents (sic) safety because I have some very close friends that are US Border Patrol agents in southern AZ as well as my concern for all the agents (sic) safety that protect our country."
"It's like ATF created or added to the problem so they could be the solution to it and pat themselves on the back," says one law enforcement source familiar with the facts. "It's a circular way of thinking."
The Justice Department and ATF declined to comment. ATF officials mentioned in this report did not respond to requests from CBS News to speak with them.
The "Demand Letter 3" Debate
The two sides in the gun debate have long clashed over whether gun dealers should have to report multiple rifle sales. On one side, ATF officials argue that a large number of semi-automatic, high-caliber rifles from the U.S. are being used by violent cartels in Mexico. They believe more reporting requirements would help ATF crack down. On the other side, gun rights advocates say that's unconstitutional, and would not make a difference in Mexican cartel crimes.
Two earlier Demand Letters were initiated in 2000 and affected a relatively small number of gun shops. Demand Letter 3 was to be much more sweeping, affecting 8,500 firearms dealers in four southwest border states: Arizona, California, New Mexico and Texas. ATF chose those states because they "have a significant number of crime guns traced back to them from Mexico." The reporting requirements were to apply if a gun dealer sells two or more long guns to a single person within five business days, and only if the guns are semi-automatic, greater than .22 caliber and can be fitted with a detachable magazine.
On April 25, 2011, ATF announced plans to implement Demand Letter 3. The National Shooting Sports Foundation is suing the ATF to stop the new rules. It calls the regulation an illegal attempt to enforce a law Congress never passed. ATF counters that it has reasonably targeted guns used most often to "commit violent crimes in Mexico, especially by drug gangs."
Reaction
Sen. Charles Grassley, R-Iowa, is investigating Fast and Furious, as well as the alleged use of the case to advance gun regulations. "There's plenty of evidence showing that this administration planned to use the tragedies of Fast and Furious as rationale to further their goals of a long gun reporting requirement. But, we've learned from our investigation that reporting multiple long gun sales would do nothing to stop the flow of firearms to known straw purchasers because many Federal Firearms Dealers are already voluntarily reporting suspicious transactions. It's pretty clear that the problem isn't lack of burdensome reporting requirements."
On July 12, 2011, Sen. Grassley and Rep. Darrell Issa, R-Calif., wrote Attorney General Eric Holder, whose Justice Department oversees ATF. They asked Holder whether officials in his agency discussed how "Fast and Furious could be used to justify additional regulatory authorities." So far, they have not received a response. CBS News asked the Justice Department for comment and context on ATF emails about Fast and Furious and Demand Letter 3, but officials declined to speak with us.
"In light of the evidence, the Justice Department's refusal to answer questions about the role Operation Fast and Furious was supposed to play in advancing new firearms regulations is simply unacceptable," Rep. Issa told CBS News.
Sharyl Attkisson
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-57338546-10391695/documents-atf-used-fast-and-furious-to-make-the-case-for-gun-regulations
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My evidence would be and is circumstancial. On the vote for contempt, it was divided exactly down party lines. All Democrates voting no, all Republicans voting yes. Historically, a party rarely, if ever goes after it's own party members, however it is routine for one party to attack or seek investigations, sanctions, impeachment on the other party... sooooo
Based on what has transpired overe the last 50 yrs, I think a reasonable assumption would be that Issa would not be so tenacious had McCain won and was in office and appointed a Republican AG
You feel differently?
I absolutely feel differently. The fact that the vote went directly down party lines in an election year proves nothing except that politicians circle the wagons for their party on occasion. Democrats in Congress are an endangered species. Who wants to be the odd man out in the event that Obama ends up being re-elected? Corey Booker is the brightest, most articulate and most competent politician that the Democratic party has to offer these days. He was excommunicated by the Obama administration for making a harmless comment in support of capitalism.
The easy answer here is that if Holder had simply complied with Issa's requests, this whole saga would be moot. The fact that he has been caught lying several times, purposely withheld documents, has failed to comply with numerous requests for information and now has to have the Prez bail him out with an incomprehensible assertion of executive privilege all point to the obvious= Holder's attempts to cover up what happened and stonewall Congress have turned what is allegedly a non-story into a huge mess.
Whatever the case might be-- hundreds of people are dead. A US border agent is dead. The dept of justice fucked up beyond belief. Even if your argument about partisanship is true, it is irrelevant. Someone has to answer for this.
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333 - you finally posted something worthwhile
Since we have an email of one agent musing that he can use this to justify a demand letter on long gun multiple sales
did they ever issue such a letter ?
I assume you're aware that you haven't in any way proven that the programs intent was to justify gun regulations.
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333 - you finally posted something worthwhile
Since we have an email of one agent musing that he can use this to justify a demand letter on long gun multiple sales
did they ever issue such a letter ?
They tried to but it never went through since there was a massive outcry from gun groups at the time.
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They tried to but it never went through since there was a massive outcry from gun groups at the time.
how did they try?
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how did they try?
i think the dems entered some anti-gun legislation or something like that.
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how did they try?
Do some research on this.
I'm not going to do it for you.
They issued a letter saying they were going to do it, but then the uproar from gun groups and certain congressmen got them to back down.
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Do some research on this.
I'm not going to do it for you.
They issued a letter saying they were going to do it, but then the uproar from gun groups and certain congressmen got them to back down.
oh brother, give me a break on the bellyaching
they could have just as easily issued this letter (and probably did many other times before) without needing F&F
The idea that the "intent" of the program was to produce this letter is nonsense and completely unfounded (especially considering the program was created before Obam was POTUS so kind of hard to figure out how they got Bush to go along with their secret plan to restrict gun rights)
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I hate the strategy. But - i fault the 2006 DOJ and the 2009 DOJ for it.
Trying to excuse one of them, blaming batteries, etc - but clobbering the program 3 years later (run by the same agent!) Is just plain political buffoonery.
Uh, well for one, its not the same program, dingus.
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I absolutely feel differently. The fact that the vote went directly down party lines in an election year proves nothing except that politicians circle the wagons for their party on occasion. Democrats in Congress are an endangered species. Who wants to be the odd man out in the event that Obama ends up being re-elected? Corey Booker is the brightest, most articulate and most competent politician that the Democratic party has to offer these days. He was excommunicated by the Obama administration for making a harmless comment in support of capitalism.
The easy answer here is that if Holder had simply complied with Issa's requests, this whole saga would be moot. The fact that he has been caught lying several times, purposely withheld documents, has failed to comply with numerous requests for information and now has to have the Prez bail him out with an incomprehensible assertion of executive privilege all point to the obvious= Holder's attempts to cover up what happened and stonewall Congress have turned what is allegedly a non-story into a huge mess.
Whatever the case might be-- hundreds of people are dead. A US border agent is dead. The dept of justice fucked up beyond belief. Even if your argument about partisanship is true, it is irrelevant. Someone has to answer for this.
I agree. I guess my statement is that in general, those who are after Holder, probably don't give a rats ass about the border agent, but see it as an opportunity to give the other a black eye. Regardless of motive, I agree someone needs to be held accountable
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http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/Kati
Watch and learn.
Blaming Bush is utterly absurd.
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The 5 Biggest Differences Between Operation Fast and Furious and Operation Wide Receiver
The Blaze ^ | 26 June, 2012 | Jason Howerton
Posted on June 26, 2012 10:14:10 PM EDT by marktwain
Ever since the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee voted in favor of holding Attorney General Eric Holder in contempt last week, the Left has been conducting a public relations push to downplay operation “Fast and Furious” and convince Americans that the failed gunrunning initiative was actually started under former President George W. Bush under the name “Wide Receiver.”
The insinuation is that Fast and Furious is somehow a continuation of the Bush-era operation. The only problem with that theory is that it’s not true.
Even White House Press Secretary Jay Carney last week attempted to shift the blame from Holder and the Obama administration and onto the Bush administration.
“Everything has been provided to — congressional investigators and that is really the issue, isn’t it? It is how did this operation come about. It originated in a field office during the previous administration. It was ended under this administration by this attorney general,” Carney said during a presser last week.
But even the laziest of fact-checks would prove his assertion wrong.
In no way does that excuse the Bush administration from allowing a poorly-planned operation to proceed. However, the differences between the two operations are stark and should be considered.
(1) First and foremost, operation Wide Receiver did not result in the death of a U.S. Border Patrol agent or an Immigrations and Customs Enforcement (ICE) officer. Fast and Furious did. The guns that ultimately killed Border Patrol agent Brian Terry and ICE officer Jamie Zapata were traced back to straw purchasers related to Fast and Furious. Zapata’s family filed a wrongful death suit against the U.S. Justice Department last week.
Further, officials have confirmed that the guns from Fast and Furious have already killed hundreds of Mexican citizens and Holder has said on the record that they will likely kill many more. The total number of confirmed deaths so far from Wide Receiver: Zero.
(2) Second, Wide Receiver, though flawed, was more of a gun-tracing operation than a gun-walking program. Gun-tracing involves putting specific safeguards in place to track firearms, such as RFID chips perhaps with video or aerial surveillance. Gun-walking is what happened in Fast and Furious, where ATF agents sold thousands of guns without a reliable way to recover them, apparently just hoping for the best.
Some of the guns from Wide Receiver were implanted with RFID chips and were actively tracked electronically. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) in Phoenix also implemented aerial surveillance tactics in an attempt to follow the weapons.
However, problems reportedly arose due to poorly implanted RFID chips which were forced into the guns, bending the antennas and decreasing their effectiveness. Cartels and straw purchasers also eventually came up with creative ways to shake tracking maneuvers and overhead surveillance, such as driving in loops for hours until surveillance planes had to refuel.
Those in charge of Fast and Furious took no similar steps to strengthen their chances of recovering walked guns other than recording the serial numbers before watching them disappear in the hands of Mexican drug cartels.
In fact, ATF agents involved in Fast and Furious have previously testified that they were ordered to stand down and not track the weapons even when interdiction was possible and instead “took notes” and let the guns walk across the Mexico border. Watch some of ATF whistleblower John Dodson’s Congressional testimony:
(3) Third, one must take into account the size and scope of the operations.
Speaking to members of the Senate Judiciary Committee earlier this month, Holder said that “three hundred guns” were allowed to “walk” (although note the difference between “tracing” and “walking” above) in Wide Receiver. While there is no evidence that suggests otherwise, the figure is dwarfed by the approximately 2,000 firearms that walked in Fast and Furious. Roughly 1,400 guns were lost and about 700 have been recovered in Mexico and at crime scenes like the sites of Terry and Zapata’s murders.
(4) Perhaps the most convincing piece of evidence proving the two operations are separate from each other is the fact that Wide Receiver was shut down in 2007 shortly after it was clear the program was a failure. This was before Obama was even in office and nearly two years before Fast and Furious began.
Fast and Furious wasn’t shut down until late 2010 after the deaths of hundreds of Mexicans, a border agent and an ICE officer.
(5) Finally, unlike Fast and Furious, officials involved in Wide Receiver were reportedly in close contact with Mexican authorities during the operation, though how involved Mexican officials were is not entirely known.
What is known is that Mexican authorities were kept completely in the dark during Fast and Furious, according to the Mexican ambassador to the U.S. Mexico. He announced on June 1, 2012, that Mexico would be launching its own probe into Fast and Furious.
It should be perfectly clear that both the Bush and Obama administration conducted two separate, flawed operations. One, however, was a much deadlier and larger operation.
If there is evidence of wrongdoing, or false testimony related to operation Wide Receiver, those responsible should be held accountable. But the argument that Fast and Furious is all about “politics” and should just be swept under the rug because the previous administration also carried out a similar program is irresponsible.
A contempt resolution will be considered by the full House of Representatives this week. If lawmakers decide to hold the attorney general in contempt, it will be a first in U.S. history for a sitting attorney general.
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/the-5-biggest-differences-between-operation-fast-and-furious-and-operation-wide-receiver
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Uh, well for one, its not the same program, dingus.
Yes, they gave it a new name, and the new president let the SAME GUY lose guns again.
I mean, I can call it "Operation date rape" and drug girls all night, and the cops can let me off on it.
If I go out 2 weeks later and call it "Operation peace on earth" and put the same drugs in drinks at the same bar, it's the same damn operation - just under a different name. And the police who let me walk the first time should be ashamed of it.
Bush is the cop that let this man get away with it last time, and Obama is the man who let them get away with it this time.