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Getbig Bodybuilding Boards => Steroids Info & Hardcore => Topic started by: DIVISION on December 11, 2005, 02:28:59 AM

Title: PCT opinions.
Post by: DIVISION on December 11, 2005, 02:28:59 AM: For those experienced.

On an extended cycle (20+ Weeks) do you feel better using 300-500IU HCG every 4/5 days, or do you prefer to wait until after the cycle is over to do traditional PCT?

Post up your PCT and please be specific.

Speak on this.

DIV
Title: Re: PCT opinions.
Post by: Luv2Hurt on December 11, 2005, 06:27:44 AM: I think it works best while on, too bad you were not around when marble did TONS of research on this.

Sertoli cells, the kind that DON'T REPRODUCE AND YOU ONLY HAVE SO MANY OF start to die after 4-5 days. They are considered "nurse cells", cause they nourish the sperm in the semiferious tubules and I repeat; you have a fixed amount of them! A lack of LH kills em, A complete shut down of the HPTA, like you experience on gear will cause the cells to begin dying, about 4-5 days.

http://education.vetmed.vt.edu/Curriculum/VM8054/Labs/Lab27/EXAMPLES/EXSERTOL.HTM

Marble's research was much more complete on this, but HCG will keep these cells alive, cause it keeps the testes producing sperm. Its no big deal if you don't plan on fathering any children or are done with that. If you are young and may want kids this will help down the road. Mild use for shortish periods without LH will probally not kill off all these cells on you but long term use from a young age may cause you problems down the road.

The part you have to be careful of is desensitizing the testes with too large a dose of HCG, use as little as you can 300-500Ius is about right. You will know when it's working you should be having the feeling of being about 14 YO as far a sex hormones go. If you desensitize them it will take a long time for them to respond to your natty levels when you come off. But marble had research on how at low doses they will not desensitize.

Use it on any cycle, start it with your first AAS shot. make sure you are running some kind of estrogen protection, cause the HCG will cause increased aromatase.
Title: Re: PCT opinions.
Post by: gammahydroxy on December 11, 2005, 06:04:57 PM: Check this out: It's an interesting article about using Aromsin for PCT. http://www.avantlabs.com/magmain.php?pageID=431&issueID=35 (http://www.avantlabs.com/magmain.php?pageID=431&issueID=35)
I may utilize the same protocol for my next PCT..
Title: Re: PCT opinions.
Post by: Kegdrainer on December 12, 2005, 02:49:07 AM: very informative. I will have to delve a little deeper into some of my resources but if all this is legit, there should be some serious thought put into PCT especially with regard to Clomid use. Anyone else have any thoughts?
Title: Re: PCT opinions.
Post by: mem on December 12, 2005, 05:33:14 AM: Thank YOU guys for sharing this knowledge . . .

Damn there A R E some smart people here
that I am greatful for . . .

Mike
Title: Re: PCT opinions.
Post by: gammahydroxy on December 12, 2005, 06:37:37 PM: I would just wait and do the trad PCT...In my experience with long cycles...HCG doesn't really help me...I inject 500 I.u's and my boys drop for a few hours, then they atrophy even more than before..Plus it's pretty expensive drug...I use 25mg of clomid every 3-4 days after week 6-7, and that seems to help keep my boys down..
Title: Re: PCT opinions.
Post by: Blake on December 12, 2005, 07:27:35 PM: On extended cycles, yes, I have found it useful to include HCG throughout.

I had good results using 250 IU's twice weekly, on Mon. and Thur. It was enough to prevent testicular atrophy. Certainly some people will need more than that to stave off atrophy though.
Title: Re: PCT opinions.
Post by: Arnold jr on December 12, 2005, 07:40:42 PM: I've never had any trouble with atrophy... yeah I know, probably lucky. For that reason I've never used hcg during cycle, only as part of pct to help with recovery.

I'm very interested though to see where this thread goes because I am very interested in running some extended cycles. With that in mind I know hcg during cycle is something I might want to think about.

Great thread!
Title: Re: PCT opinions.
Post by: denvmuscle on December 14, 2005, 09:16:51 AM: This is an interesting thread- and I dont' mean to "hijack" the thread but I'd like to ask some questions of my own since I JUST am starting my PCT and.. guess what with??? HCT and Clomid! Can I get advice from you guys on what do do with what I've got- the more I read, the more confused I am:

I just finished my first cycle which was 20 weeks of test and eq and some Dbol thrown in. Not much problem with testicular atrophys so that's good. I am planning on doing a show mid-April.

Can you guys suggest what dosages, frequency and duration I should do my HCG and Clomid.

Thanks.
Title: Re: PCT opinions.
Post by: sportingsteroids on December 14, 2005, 09:32:50 AM: hi div, can u post here your 20 weeks long cycle !!

thanks
Title: Re: PCT opinions.
Post by: DIVISION on December 17, 2005, 02:07:50 PM: Quote from: gammahydroxy on December 11, 2005, 06:04:57 PM
Check this out: It's an interesting article about using Aromsin for PCT. http://www.avantlabs.com/magmain.php?pageID=431&issueID=35 (http://www.avantlabs.com/magmain.php?pageID=431&issueID=35)
I may utilize the same protocol for my next PCT..

The reasoning sounds good, just wish we had corroboration from people who have used that PCT.

Using Aromasin because it effectively inactivates estrogen receptors completely is interesting. I think I'll use this PCT for my next LONG cycle, but I still think I'll use HCG 300-500IU e4d during cycle though.

DIV
Title: Re: PCT opinions.
Post by: IFBBwannaB on December 17, 2005, 03:06:17 PM: In previous studies of testicular biopsy tissue from healthy men, intratesticular testosterone (ITT) has been shown to be much higher than serum testosterone (T), suggesting that high ITT is needed relative to serum T for normal spermatogenesis in men. However, the quantitative relationship between ITT and spermatogenesis is not known. To begin to address this issue experimentally we sought to determine the dose response relationship between human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) and ITT to determine the minimum dose needed to maintain ITT in the normal range. Twenty-nine men with normal reproductive physiology were randomized to receive 200 mg T enanthate (TE) weekly in combination with either saline placebo or hCG 125 IU, 250 IU, or 500 IU every other day for 3 weeks. ITT was assessed in testicular fluid obtained by percutaneous fine needle aspiration at baseline and the end of treatment. Baseline serum T (14.1 nmol/L) was 1.2% of ITT (1174 nmol/L). LH and FSH were profoundly suppressed to 5% and 3% of baseline respectively, and ITT was suppressed by 94% (1234 nmol/L to 72 nmol/L) in the TE/placebo group. ITT increased linearly with increasing hCG dose (P < 0.001). Post-treatment ITT was 25% less than baseline in the 125 IU hCG group, 7% less than baseline in the 250 IU hCG group, and 26% greater than baseline in the 500 IU hCG group. These results demonstrate that relatively low dose hCG maintains ITT within the normal range in healthy men with gonadotropin suppression. Extensions of this study will allow determination of the ITT concentration threshold required to maintain spermatogenesis in man.

Last time I cycled I used ~350/EOD.
Title: Re: PCT opinions.
Post by: DIVISION on December 17, 2005, 03:18:35 PM: Quote from: IFBBwannaB on December 17, 2005, 03:06:17 PM
Last time I cycled I used ~350/EOD.

Based on this study, what do you see as the advantage of running 350IU EOD vs. 500IU E4D?

I see these are basically the same, concentration wise over the course of a cycle.

1400IU vs. 1000IU every 7 days......that's what it comes down to.

DIV
Title: Re: PCT opinions.
Post by: BIGMIKE on December 17, 2005, 03:22:47 PM: THIS IS ALL VERY INTERESTING,ESPECIALLY SINCE I'VE NEVER HEARD OF ANYONE ACTUALLY GOING THRU WITH THIS.IT IS OBVIOUS,THOUGH,THAT EVERYONE (INCLUDING MYSELF ALLTHOUGH I HAVEN'T TRIED IT)AGREES THAT HCG NEEDS TO BE KEPT ON THE LOW SIDE TO AVOID OVERSTIMULATION OF THE TESTES WHICH CAUSES DESENSITIZATION.ALTHOUGH I HAVE ALWAYS GONE ON THE ADVICE OF A UROLOGIST WHO ONCE TOLD ME THAT THE BEST I COULD DO WAS TO MAKE SURE I KEPT STIMULATING THE BOYS ,AND MAKE SURE TO "RELIEVE PRESSURE" AS OFTEN AS POSSIBLE.WITH OR WITHOUT HELP.HE SAID THAT THIS WOULD HELP FORCE THEM INTO STAYING ACTIVE.I REALIZE THAT THIS IS OLD SCHOOL MENTALITY BUT I NEVER REALLY HAVE A PROBLEM WITH ATROPHY EXCEPT TOWARDS THE END OF PREP FOR A SHOW,WHEN ALL I HAVE THE ENERGY FOR IS EATING ,SLEEPING,AND TRAINING.EVEN THEN,IT IS ALWAYS MINIMAL.STILL,THIS DOES DESERVE A SHOT.JUST STARTED PREP FOR MY NEXT SHOW THIS WEEK,SO I'M RIGHT ON TIME TO TRY IT OUT.I'M NORMALLY PRONE TO SOME CONVERSION SO I IMAGINE THAT IT WILL BE MUCH WORSE NOW.ANY SUGGESTIONS?
Title: Re: PCT opinions.
Post by: xkol on December 17, 2005, 11:05:58 PM: some studies i didnt write these go figure...

Human chorionic gonadotrophin is a strange hormone. Its only found in the placenta of pregnant women. For women it has fairly little use if any however, but to the male athlete it has one interesting property. It can mimic the action of luteinizing hormone (LH) in the body. LH is a pituitary hormone that is released and signals the manufacture of testosterone in the testicles. The sex hormones in the body work via a negative feedback system, where too much sex hormone (like anabolic androgenic steroids and estrogens) causes a signal to the brain to stop the release of LH. During long duration cycles, if natural test stays suppressed for considerable time, a male user will begin to note an atrophy in his testicles, meaning they will visibly shrink purely out of disuse. By administering an LH-mimicking agent, one can bring back the function of the testicles and let them regain their size. This is the main use of HCG.

Since it forms testosterone in the body to some extent, it can impart certain performance enhancing properties, but usually these are not major. The side-effects accompanied with HCG use (usually androgenic such as extreme acne), its low rate of effect, the cost compared to more effective steroids and so on will mostly keep athletes from using it for that purpose. Moreover it can be tested for in athletic competitions, so most will stay clear of it. But to the steroid user HCG is an almost essential part of a cycle. Because of its effect on bringing testicle size back it can promote the return of natural testosterone, since the first natural signals can immediately deliver a higher yield of testosterone in the body. And getting natural testosterone back online after a cycle is crucial, especially if you intend to keep most of your hard-earned gains. Without adequate natural endocrine response you will not be able to maintain a mass that was higher than before.

The downside is that HCG too is suppressive of natural testosterone. Because it takes the place of LH. LH is not the first step in the chain of command, instead its manufactured in the pituitary under the response of Gonadotropin releasing hormone (GnRH) which is secreted from the hypothalamus. And since an LH mimicking agent is supplied exogenously, the negative feedback signal to the hypothalamus will still tell it to stop making GnRH, and so no natural LH is produced. This is why the product is always used in conjunction with a potent estrogen receptor antagonist like clomid or Nolvadex. When the androgen level in the body has dropped, these antagonists will lower estrogenic response creating a steroid deficit that signals the Hypothalamus to start making GnRH. When it does, after HCG therapy, testicle size is up again and shortly thereafter natural testosterone manufacture should return to normal. But therefore its crucial that users note that though HCG is essential after long cycles, it shouldn't be used without clomid or Nolvadex AND HCG should be discontinued at least two weeks before coming off Clomid or Nolvadex or else it will suppress natural testosterone itself.

Also important to take into account : using HCG for too long a period of time or in doses that are excessively high, can desensitize the testicles to the effect of LH and would put your right back where you started from. Basically that would mean you spent money to no avail. In terms of side-effects one should expect some androgenic signs such as acne and there is a risk for hair loss or prostate hypertrophy, but in most cases this compound will be used for 3-4 weeks, so these should not manifest themselves to any serious degree. There will also be some estrogen build-up, but since the user HAS to be on clomid or Nolvadex, this should not become apparent either. Next to this, HCG being a fertility drug, one should be aware that increased blood pressure and blood clotting can occur. HCG is clinically used to make women ovulate, or to invoke birth in pregnant women.

Stacking and Use:

You would normally opt to use HCG after you've done a long cycle, usually 8 weeks or more. Note that almost all proper cycles are 8 weeks or more in length, its just that some beginners have a phobia of needles and opt to waste their time with an all oral stack first, in which case the cycle wouldn't be longer than 6-7 weeks. In these cases too HCG can have a use, but most of the time testicular atrophy will not have progressed to such a stage that it is an absolute necessity. In any case, you should run it about 3 weeks, totaling about 4 shots. One every 5-6 days. Start off with one shot of 3000 IU somewhere in the last week of your stack, then another 3000 5 days later, then drop to 1500 5 days later and a last shot of 1500 6 days after that. Sometime after the second or third shot, therapy with Nolvadex or clomid should be commenced and continued for 4-5 weeks. How to do this, I refer you to the Nolva/clomid profile.

In any case, I'll repeat it again, since it is important. HCG IS and always will be an important part of post-cycle recovery, but it should never be run too long or at too high a dose and should always be accompanied by the use of either Clomid or Nolvadex. The use of Clomid or Nolvadex should also be continued at least 2 weeks after HCG is discontinued to avoid the HCG causing problems.
Title: Re: PCT opinions.
Post by: xkol on December 17, 2005, 11:06:50 PM: and another 1...........

I advise my AAS patients to use small amounts of HCG (250IU to 500IU) every third day, right from the beginning of the cycle. This serves to maintain testicular form and function. This is infinitely better than waiting until they have seriously atrophied. It makes more sense to me to keep the horse in the barn, so to speak, then to have to chase it across three counties later on. I am also a big fan of maintaining estrogen within physiological ranges. Both therapies have been shown to hasten recovery.

Any more than 500IU of HCG per day causes too much aromatase activity. This drives up estrogen levels, unopposed by increased testosterone production. Some feel aromatase is actually toxic to the Leydig cells of the testes. You are then inducing primary hypogonadism (which is permanent) while treating steroid-induced secondary (hypogonadotrophic) hypogonadism (which is temporary--hopefully).

If 250IU or 500IU on two days each week isn’t enough to stave off testicular atrophy, then I recommend using it more days each week (as opposed to taking larger doses). In fact, I wouldn’t mind having a guy use 250IU per day ALL THROUGH the cycle. Those that have tell me they thus avoid that edgy, burned-out feeling they usually get. They also say they simply feel better each day. Subjective reports, to be sure, but they are hard not to appreciate. Especially when HCG is so inexpensive.

The testes are then ready, willing and able to again produce testosterone at the end of the cycle. They have been shown to represent the rate-limiting step in HPTA recovery (usually). LH levels rise fairly rapidly, but endogenous testosterone production is limited by lack of testicular stimulation by same. I also want to make sure a SERM, such as Clomid or Nolvadex, is at effective serum dosage (around 50mg QD for Clomid, 20mg QD for Nolvadex) when serum androgen levels drop to a concentration roughly equal to 200mg of testosterone per week. That is when androgenic inhibition at the HP no longer dominates over estrogenic antagonism with respect to inducing LH production. Of course, if the fellow has been doing Clomid or Nolvadex all along the way (and I now prefer Nolvadex over Clomid, due to the possibility of negative sides from the Clomid), he is all set to simply continue it at the end (no need to switch from one to the other). BTW, I see no evidence of any benefit in using BOTH SERM’s (Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator—the class of drugs Nolvadex and Clomid belong to) at the same time. I used to think a couple of weeks of the SERM was enough; now I like to see an entire month after the last shot of AAS (and migration of long to short esters as the cycle matures), BEFORE beginning to taper down the SERM. Tapering the SERM is a must at the end, dropping the dose in half every five days until you are taking only 12.5mg of Clomid, or 5mg of Nolvadex, before stopping.

I want my patients to stop taking HCG a week or so after the end of the cycle. Exactly how long you take it depends upon the half-life of the AAS used, and their dosing. Otherwise, the testosterone production HCG induces will further inhibit recovery, as will using Androgel, or any other testosterone preparation, while in recovery. There is no escaping this, as there is no such thing as a “bridge”. Just because you are not inhibiting the HPTA for the entire 24 hours does not mean you are not suppressing it at all. IOW, you can’t “fool” the body—it is smarter than you are.

I like Arimidex during the cycle (in fact, consider use of an AI while taking aromatizable steroids is a necessity) but it ABSOLUTELY should not be used post cycle (even though it has been shown to increase LH production) because the risk of driving estrogen too low, and therefore further damaging an already compromised Lipid Profile, is too great (this also drives libido back into the ground—and we don’t want that, do we?).

All this is meant to get my guys through recovery as fast as possible (the real goal, yes?). So far, all of them who have tried it have reported they are recovering faster than when they have tried other protocols.

Copyright 2004 John Crisler, DO. This article may, in its entirety or in part, be reprinted and republished without permission, provided that credit be given to its author, with copyright notice and www.AllThingsMale.com clearly displayed as source. Written permission from Dr. Crisler is required for all other uses.

_________________
Title: Re: PCT opinions.
Post by: DIVISION on December 18, 2005, 01:23:55 AM: Quote from: Big X on December 17, 2005, 11:05:58 PM
some studies i didnt write these go figure...

Good work, Xkol.....

Good lookin' out, bro.

DIV
Title: Re: PCT opinions.
Post by: IFBBwannaB on December 18, 2005, 06:37:34 AM: I prefer EOD shots because of the short half life of HCG.
It reachs maximum levels at about 6 hours and exponantialy decline.
I think I had a study who qouted this ,I will look for it when I get home.

So no,total intake isnt what matter like you said.

If you like I can send you my old study summarys when me and Marbel discussed usage of HCG mid cycle.

EDIT:

Do note the extremly importent factor of the study I posted.They measured ITT which is a much better indicator of your testicals operation then blood Test levels.

And with such beautiful results from teh study why go play with it and do shot/5days on a substance that is known to have a short half life?

When I first read it I felt like this study was made by some juicer,it awnsered on many questions for me :D
Title: Re: PCT opinions.
Post by: Luv2Hurt on December 18, 2005, 06:59:50 AM: The info Big X posted is awesome! The later is the protocol I used and damn I could not BELIEVE how fast I recovered from an almost 10 month cycle.

If I didn't know better I would say it was marble who wrote that??????? or his mentor at least.

After reading it it further proves to me my theory that using fast clearing compounds specifically test propinate for the last month, will hasten recovery also....in my experience it worked too. Have learned to listen to my body pretty good over the years....like most BB. I was monitoring myself lots during this PCT and as expected I felt a small "lull" period in the process about week 2, as I figured I would because the LH had worn off and the natty test had not been all the way back up. But about week 3-4 felt things comming back around. It even felt like I jumped back on for a couple weeks, while my test levels rebounded.

Thats why I posted the HCG source, so guys who cant find it could protect themselves. But the mods deleted it....in a smug way :(

The reason I'm so supprized is I'M freaking 42 and am recovering better than when i was younger.
Title: Re: PCT opinions.
Post by: Luv2Hurt on December 18, 2005, 07:02:40 AM: Quote from: IFBBwannaB on December 18, 2005, 06:37:34 AM
If you like I can send you my old study summarys when me and Marbel discussed usage of HCG mid cycle.

Please do that would be great. Post it for all, just credit the author.
Title: Re: PCT opinions.
Post by: IFBBwannaB on December 18, 2005, 02:25:21 PM: Attaching .doc file with the intresting studies I found.I highlighted parts who seemed relative to me.
I dont summary it in a way of making an article because Im lazy....and...by needing to read it again I might have some new ideas and theorys on the subject.

Most of the studies are from the post me and Marble had a long time ago.God that was some good times :P

BTW : attaching it in .jpg cause it wont let me attach .doc ,just rename the extention once you DL the attachment.
Title: Re: PCT opinions.
Post by: theman on December 19, 2005, 01:10:01 AM: Quote from: Luv2Hurt on December 18, 2005, 06:59:50 AM
The info Big X posted is awesome! The later is the protocol I used and damn I could not BELIEVE how fast I recovered from an almost 10 month cycle.

If I didn't know better I would say it was marble who wrote that??????? or his mentor at least.

After reading it it further proves to me my theory that using fast clearing compounds specifically test propinate for the last month, will hasten recovery also....in my experience it worked too. Have learned to listen to my body pretty good over the years....like most BB. I was monitoring myself lots during this PCT and as expected I felt a small "lull" period in the process about week 2, as I figured I would because the LH had worn off and the natty test had not been all the way back up. But about week 3-4 felt things comming back around. It even felt like I jumped back on for a couple weeks, while my test levels rebounded.

Thats why I posted the HCG source, so guys who cant find it could protect themselves. But the mods deleted it....in a smug way :(

The reason I'm so supprized is I'M freaking 42 and am recovering better than when i was younger.

Dr. Crisler is a highly respected doctor in the field of HRT...

http://www.allthingsmale.com

theman
Title: Re: PCT opinions.
Post by: DIVISION on December 19, 2005, 02:04:38 AM: Quote from: IFBBwannaB on December 18, 2005, 06:37:34 AM
I prefer EOD shots because of the short half life of HCG.
It reachs maximum levels at about 6 hours and exponantialy decline.
I think I had a study who qouted this ,I will look for it when I get home.

So no,total intake isnt what matter like you said.

Do note the extremly importent factor of the study I posted.They measured ITT which is a much better indicator of your testicals operation then blood Test levels.

And with such beautiful results from teh study why go play with it and do shot/5days on a substance that is known to have a short half life?

John Crisler, DO. of www.AllThingsMale.com is the one who advocated 250-500IU E3D, which is what I was recommending. He specializes in HRT for a living, so I'd probably be more apt to take his experience over a study that you have interpreted on your own.

Nothing against you or Marble, but my thinking is that Doc has worked with many patients specifically with the aim of bringing up endegenous test levels, so he knows what he's talking about.

Now, if Marble was here to dispute this with his own rationalizations and points of contention, by all means I'd listen.

As is, though.......if the Doc says E3D, I'd likely try that before EOD.

DIV
Title: Re: PCT opinions.
Post by: IFBBwannaB on December 19, 2005, 02:38:07 AM: http://www.anabolex.com/forums/showthread.php?t=145484

If 250IU or 500IU on two days each week isn?t enough to stave off testicular atrophy, then I recommend using it more days each week (as opposed to taking larger doses). In fact, I wouldn?t mind having a guy use 250IU per day ALL THROUGH the cycle. Those that have tell me they thus avoid that edgy, burned-out feeling they usually get. They also say they simply feel better each day. Subjective reports, to be sure, but they are hard not to appreciate. Especially when HCG is so inexpensive

I read his article long time ago.But you missed the fact he looks for stable levles.His patients DONT ever recover they start from the state you want to prevent.

Your intentions to use high amounts of HCG on large intervals have no basis from his article or studies.
If you will look for the old HCG post you will see mine and Marble conclusions.No need for Marble to come again,he had it all written out there.

ALTHOUGH E3D sound ok too but i wouldnt go over ~350IU ,the DR and the stuides clearly show its counterproductive.
Title: Re: PCT opinions.
Post by: DIVISION on December 19, 2005, 04:46:14 AM: Quote from: IFBBwannaB on December 19, 2005, 02:38:07 AM
Your intentions to use high amounts of HCG on large intervals have no basis from his article or studies.

If you will look for the old HCG post you will see mine and Marble conclusions.No need for Marble to come again,he had it all written out there.

What are you talking about, bro?

I said 250-500IU.....those are not high amounts at all. E3D is not a large interval either. I think you're missing the point. I didn't write the article, the Doctor did and I'd trust his expertise over one study, regardless of what you and Marble deciphered from said study.

Regarding Marble, yes he should come back again. He was one of the few who actually could read a study and explain it so most people could understand it. I'm trying to get him back......

DIV
Title: Re: PCT opinions.
Post by: IFBBwannaB on December 19, 2005, 08:04:56 AM: You first post stated 500IU/5days. Which is a large dosage on long intervals.The DR article state that 500IU is a dangerious amount and you did say you follow his advice didnt you?

If you would reread both of the DR articles you would notice he mostly check for blood Test levels.And assume the athrophey is minimal.His follow up article stated that he rather use 2 smaller shots then a big one because of the fast large peaks HCG creates.

Further more from his article:

If 250IU or 500IU on two days each week isn?t enough to stave off testicular atrophy, then I recommend using it more days each week (as opposed to taking larger doses). In fact, I wouldn?t mind having a guy use 250IU per day ALL THROUGH the cycle. Those that have tell me they thus avoid that edgy, burned-out feeling they usually get. They also say they simply feel better each day. Subjective reports, to be sure, but they are hard not to appreciate. Especially when HCG is so inexpensive

Now when you add all of his words to the study who specificly checked for ITT which is probably the biggest and best indicator for a juicer on his testy function ,you got it all wraped up.

And I did say E3D is ok :
ALTHOUGH E3D sound ok too but i wouldnt go over ~350IU ,the DR and the stuides clearly show its counterproductive.

So Im not the one of us who should reread this.I read all of this and much more long ago.
From 500IU/5day you went to 250-500 E3D ,I would say you have changed your mind but wont admit it which is pretty funny.
Title: Re: PCT opinions.
Post by: Luv2Hurt on December 19, 2005, 11:41:10 AM: Some people may need a little more than 250IU for a favorable response, MO somewhere in the 250-500 is OK. Its really not totally critical to keep it to the IU # exactly, just put it in that range and let your body do the rest. Its really not that complicated.
Title: Re: PCT opinions.
Post by: DIVISION on December 19, 2005, 07:59:13 PM: Quote from: IFBBwannaB on December 19, 2005, 08:04:56 AM
So Im not the one of us who should reread this.I read all of this and much more long ago.
From 500IU/5day you went to 250-500 E3D ,I would say you have changed your mind but wont admit it which is pretty funny.

That's a HUGE jump......500IU e5d ----> 500IU e3d......

Do you see my point? You're splitting hairs here, bro.

None of this is set in stone, and it all depends on the individual. I might get in to a long suppressive cycle and decide to go EOD like Hurt2Luv suggested.

Quote from: Luv2Hurt on December 19, 2005, 11:41:10 AM
Some people may need a little more than 250IU for a favorable response, MO somewhere in the 250-500 is OK. Its really not totally critical to keep it to the IU # exactly, just put it in that range and let your body do the rest. Its really not that complicated.

^Exactly.

It's not an exact science.

DIV
Title: Re: PCT opinions.
Post by: Luv2Hurt on December 19, 2005, 08:16:10 PM: Quote from: DIVISION on December 19, 2005, 07:59:13 PM
Hurt2Luv

Hummmm....very interesting......your getting closer
Title: Re: PCT opinions.
Post by: DIVISION on December 19, 2005, 08:23:32 PM: Quote from: Luv2Hurt on December 19, 2005, 08:16:10 PM
Hummmm....very interesting......your getting closer

That's what I call you from now one (Hurt2Luv).........recognize this.

Accept it, it's law.

DIV
Title: Re: PCT opinions.
Post by: Luv2Hurt on December 19, 2005, 08:32:52 PM: I submit to your athoritie (said south park style) :-*
Title: Re: PCT opinions.
Post by: Luv2Hurt on December 19, 2005, 08:41:53 PM: Oh yeah one more thing about the PCT stuff. I guess I'm gonna find out soon REALLY how well I recovered. Having my annual physical Thursday and having my doc run my test, LH, FSH levels. Will let you guys know when i get em.
Title: Re: PCT opinions.
Post by: DIVISION on December 19, 2005, 09:18:54 PM: Quote from: Luv2Hurt on December 19, 2005, 08:41:53 PM
Oh yeah one more thing about the PCT stuff. I guess I'm gonna find out soon REALLY how well I recovered. Having my annual physical Thursday and having my doc run my test, LH, FSH levels. Will let you guys know when i get em.

POST IT UP.

WE NEED THIS!!!!!

DIV
Title: Re: PCT opinions.
Post by: BIGMIKE on December 20, 2005, 04:08:09 PM: THANKS BRO'S FOR ANSWERING W/OUT ANSWERING.LOL.I GET THE POINT.JUST STARTED THIS WEEK.THIS IS WHAT THE WHOLE THING WILL BE LIKE:
WKS 1-12 CYP @ 900 MGS PER WEEK
WKS 1-10 TREN @ 100 MGS EOD
WKS 10-14 PROP @ 150 MGS EOD
WKS 10-16 WINNY @ 50 MGS ED
BY THE END OF THIS WEEK I'LL HAVE TO START HCG/NOLVA AND SEE HOW THIS GOES.I AM OLD SCHOOL,BUT READY ,WILLING,AND CERTAINLY ABLE TO LEARN NEW THINGS...
Title: Re: PCT opinions.
Post by: DIVISION on December 20, 2005, 05:25:29 PM: Quote from: BIGMIKE on December 20, 2005, 04:08:09 PM
WKS 1-12 CYP @ 900 MGS PER WEEK
WKS 1-10 TREN @ 100 MGS EOD
WKS 10-14 PROP @ 150 MGS EOD
WKS 10-16 WINNY @ 50 MGS ED
BY THE END OF THIS WEEK I'LL HAVE TO START HCG/NOLVA AND SEE HOW THIS GOES.I AM OLD SCHOOL,BUT READY ,WILLING,AND CERTAINLY ABLE TO LEARN NEW THINGS...

Look alright to me.

I would go with Sustanon over Cypionate and would have added the Tren toward the end, but that's minor.

At least you have everything in order and you've tapered from Cypionate to Prop four weeks out.

DIV
Title: Re: PCT opinions.
Post by: BIGMIKE on December 20, 2005, 08:47:34 PM: I'D ACTUALLY CONSIDERED USING SUSPENSION JUST FOR THE SAKE OF GETTING ALL THE OIL OUT AND BEING ABLE TO START PCT MUCH SOONER.THIS IS FOR A SHOW IN MARCH,HOWEVER,AND I CAN'T SPARE THE TIME TO EXPERIMENT .NEXT OFFSEASON I'LL TRY IT...
Title: Re: PCT opinions.
Post by: DIVISION on December 20, 2005, 11:33:52 PM: Quote from: BIGMIKE on December 20, 2005, 08:47:34 PM
I'D ACTUALLY CONSIDERED USING SUSPENSION JUST FOR THE SAKE OF GETTING ALL THE OIL OUT AND BEING ABLE TO START PCT MUCH SOONER.THIS IS FOR A SHOW IN MARCH,HOWEVER,AND I CAN'T SPARE THE TIME TO EXPERIMENT .NEXT OFFSEASON I'LL TRY IT...

Allowing for 4 weeks will allow you to start PCT on-time, why would you want to start any sooner than that?

Suspension has it's drawbacks.........believ e me.

DIV
Title: Re: PCT opinions.
Post by: IFBBwannaB on December 21, 2005, 12:21:16 AM: LMAO.

At first you say the only thing that matters is the overall amount you use then you say 250-500 aint a big diffrence..hmmm seem like 100% variable there.... ::)

Further more your Dr and the studys show that 500IU is too much.

Just read the article you yourself claimed says the opostie of what I do and notice he even says he dont mind his paitents taking it ED,just as long as they dont use large dosage per injection.

You are all over the map here,each post you make is alot diffrent from the other.
Title: Re: PCT opinions.
Post by: DIVISION on December 21, 2005, 12:50:56 AM: Quote from: IFBBwannaB on December 21, 2005, 12:21:16 AM
At first you say the only thing that matters is the overall amount you use then you say 250-500 aint a big diffrence..hmmm seem like 100% variable there.... ::)

Further more your Dr and the studys show that 500IU is too much.

Just read the article you yourself claimed says the opostie of what I do and notice he even says he dont mind his paitents taking it ED,just as long as they dont use large dosage per injection.

You are all over the map here,each post you make is alot diffrent from the other.

You're making judgements you have no basis to make, since you are no more of an "authority" than I am.

I am a Moderator, not the be all, end all guru of all things Anabolic.

Where did you get the idea that I knew the most or was the most experienced here?

There are several guys who are older than me who have run longer more complex cycles.

The difference between 250IU and 500IU is not enough to warrant getting worked up about. If you want to get upset over it, by all means, go ahead.

That's not my Doctor, he's a specialist in the field of HRT who published that article for www.allthingsmale.com

The one study you refer to is just that, ONE STUDY. If you are basing everything you believe on one ancillary piece of evidence then that is your prerogative. I'd prefer to keep my options open and do as I see fit.

How am I all over the map exactly? You mean the e5d dosing of HCG vs. e3d or eod?

That's all over the map? I don't think so. Nothing here is set in stone. Why is it so hard for you to understand that?

DIV
Title: Re: PCT opinions.
Post by: Luv2Hurt on December 21, 2005, 04:56:06 AM: WannaB, have you used HCG on cycle in this manner? I'm gonna tell tell you I have, yes you do not wanna desensitize your testes on large doses of HCG that is true.

But It makes no difference if you keep within that low dose range. 250-500mg....damn man even marble said he used 500IU E4D.....and he was the pioneer in this.

Heres the idea, you bang lets say 412 IU HCG in on Monday night, about 24 hours later your testes start to respond and you can feel it, this dose will keep em firing thru wendsday, Thursday your blood HCG (LH) levels are dropping off, it will take another day or so for your testes to sense and react to this. So this brings us to Friday night, the 4th day, at this time we inject 379IUs HCG, testes are all warm an fuzzy still, atrophy will take about 4-5 days in the complete absence of HCG (LH) before it begins, so there is no problem with this time frame. After a shot of lets say 364 IU HCG while on a cycle, it will take almost a week (about 3 days covered by the HCG and the other 4 days it takes before they start to die in the absence of LH (HCG). Remember this is not (HPTA shut down) how it is supposed to work in nature, we are kind of modifying things here, as we all play mad scientist.

What we are doing is coaxing them along as we go, kind of holding that carrot out there. One time the carrot (389 iu HCG) is a tiny bit different than the previous one (450 IU HCG) but the horse's still reach for it. Just don't over feed em, than they will be full and wont care anymore.
Title: Re: PCT opinions.
Post by: musclestang on December 21, 2005, 07:27:22 AM: hey ifbbwannab good to see you back here, i haven't seen you on here in awhile. i don't think this a such a big deal that everyone has to argue about it but i like the idea and i am goin to try it for my next cycle. i'll probably do it every three days, but why do you change the dose every time you do it? hope you keep posting here ifbbwannab like you use to, you have a lot of good experience.
Title: Re: PCT opinions.
Post by: DIVISION on December 21, 2005, 01:46:32 PM: Quote from: Luv2Hurt on December 21, 2005, 04:56:06 AM
WannaB, have you used HCG on cycle in this manner? I'm gonna tell tell you I have, yes you do not wanna desensitize your testes on large doses of HCG that is true.

But It makes no difference if you keep within that low dose range. 250-500mg....damn man even marble said he used 500IU E4D.....and he was the pioneer in this.

Heres the idea, you bang lets say 412 IU HCG in on Monday night, about 24 hours later your testes start to respond and you can feel it, this dose will keep em firing thru wendsday, Thursday your blood HCG (LH) levels are dropping off, it will take another day or so for your testes to sense and react to this. So this brings us to Friday night, the 4th day, at this time we inject 379IUs HCG, testes are all warm an fuzzy still, atrophy will take about 4-5 days in the complete absence of HCG (LH) before it begins, so there is no problem with this time frame. After a shot of lets say 364 IU HCG while on a cycle, it will take almost a week (about 3 days covered by the HCG and the other 4 days it takes before they start to die in the absence of LH (HCG). Remember this is not (HPTA shut down) how it is supposed to work in nature, we are kind of modifying things here, as we all play mad scientist.

What we are doing is coaxing them along as we go, kind of holding that carrot out there. One time the carrot (389 iu HCG) is a tiny bit different than the previous one (450 IU HCG) but the horse's still reach for it. Just don't over feed em, than they will be full and wont care anymore.

Thanks for that analogy.......

That's exactly what I was trying to convey.

DIV
Title: Re: PCT opinions.
Post by: IFBBwannaB on December 21, 2005, 02:20:59 PM: I have written a complete reply but decided this is a lost cause.
So I will just summrize this.

HCG while on juice should be taken EOD-E3D at doage of around 350IU.
The article you refer to as your base of knowlage give that as an outline,and the study I posted give more specific details on doage and intervals.
Thus my conclusion.

You failure to understand that 100% is alot and almost twice longer intervals is alot of time in an hourly based substance is your problem.

To Luv2Hurt:

Your analogy is quite wrong since LH is realsed in pulses in the body and it does while on juice HCG is the only LH present.Waiting for athrophy to start is beyond me,prevent it before it happen dont keep it on the edge.

Further more you should known that hormonal spikes are really bad and mainteining stable levels of hormons especialy as importent as LH is critical.
Title: Re: PCT opinions.
Post by: Luv2Hurt on December 21, 2005, 05:53:01 PM: Quote from: IFBBwannaB on December 21, 2005, 02:20:59 PM

To Luv2Hurt:

Your analogy is quite wrong since LH is released in pulses in the body and it does while on juice HCG is the only LH present.Waiting for atrophy to start is beyond me,prevent it before it happen don't keep it on the edge.

Further more you should known that hormonal spikes are really bad and maintaining stable levels of hormones especially as impotent as LH is critical.

Wanna: Your reply was kind of hard to read the way you wrote it it did not make a whole lot of sense, you may wanna re-write that.

If you would have read what I wrote I never said to wait for atrophy cause if shooting HCG it will not get that way till about day 7 or so. Like I said it takes 4-5 days for atrophy to set in AFTER all the LH is gone. I said shoot it Monday and around Thursday they are looking for more, but atrophy will not start for a few more days and you will be shooting the stuff Friday...so your nuts are still very happy.

"Realeased in pulses"? well it really don't matter much what happens when your HPTA is working, we are talking about using HCG in times of a shut down HPTA. Pulses sounds more like my damn way anyhow as opposed to your "steady" method.

Your logic is in contradiction. You really never did say if you even had any real personal experience using HCG?? :-\

PS I spell checked your post.....you may wanna do that next time it will help it make more sense. But hey bro thats what we are all here for...to debate this stuff and your opinion is valuable.....have a great holiday season and I encourage more of this open debate :-*
Title: Re: PCT opinions.
Post by: IFBBwannaB on December 21, 2005, 11:43:36 PM: First off I speak more languages then English and English aint my first language.

I did use HCG and many friends followed my method and felt great with it.

LH pulses arent once per week as you think but more around every hour or so.I dont remember the exact number.

Your analogy is based on your daily logic,it dosent work that way.And Im not going to start explaining that.

Do as you may,feel free to let your cells start dying and then desanetizing them and then waiting again...and over and over...sigh.
Title: Re: PCT opinions.
Post by: Luv2Hurt on December 22, 2005, 05:07:58 AM: Quote from: IFBBwannaB on December 21, 2005, 11:43:36 PM

LH pulses arent once per week as you think but more around every hour or so.I dont remember the exact number.

Why do you say I thought this........this is your information. Was just using your general statement.

For me it all works out the same.....I kinda think your splitting hairs here and making a moutain out of a mole hill. But that is fine for you, I think people should do what they feel is right for themselves. Thanks again for the challanges.....this is starting to remind me of the old days.

BTW did not know english was not your native language, that explains things.....what is your native tongue? You got me beat I can only speak one language....props to you!