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Getbig Main Boards => Politics and Political Issues Board => Topic started by: tonymctones on March 02, 2013, 04:02:07 PM
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I wrote about this a while back in a thread started by Hugo I believe. This essentially allows them to drive around and a camera scans the plates of cars it sees. The location time etc are then logged into a database painting a picture of day to day movement of individual law abiding citizens.
http://news.yahoo.com/ark-police-photograph-license-plates-store-data-180420324.html
It also allows authorities to monitor where average citizens might be at any particular time. That bothers some residents, as well as groups that oppose public intrusions into individual privacy. The groups are becoming more alarmed about license plate tracking as a growing number of police departments acquire the technology.
Though authorities in Washington, D.C., London and Chicago conduct extensive electronic surveillance of public areas to detect security threats or deter gang crime, "Today, increasingly, even towns without stoplights have license plate readers," said Catherine Crump, a New York-based staff attorney with the American Civil Liberties Union.
In Little Rock, even some city officials wonder about keeping data on drivers' movements.
"It bothered me particularly if someone wasn't guilty of a crime or didn't have any active warrants or hadn't committed a crime," city director Ken Richardson said.
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Police state.
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Creepy.
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Papers...
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They have had this for a while with the automated emissions testing. The machines would sit on the side of a road and somehow measure the emissions of passing cars. Most people don't even know they are being tested. A few weeks later you would get a notice in the mail if you passed or failed.
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Great tool. We used it for recovering stolen vehicles. You could drive through apartment parking lots and readily locate them. Another potential use is on Amber alerts, setting up on major highways. The few we were testing out were spotty in accuracy. At this point we are waiting for future upgraded models. We didn't care about the law abiding citizens whereabouts.
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Great tool. We used it for recovering stolen vehicles. You could drive through apartment parking lots and readily locate them. Another potential use is on Amber alerts, setting up on major highways. The few we were testing out were spotty in accuracy. At this point we are waiting for future upgraded models. We didn't care about the law abiding citizens whereabouts.
You don't see how this could be used for very unconstitutional means?
You don't care about law abiding citizens, but you're still basically mapping out their day to day movements...
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there is no expectation of privacy in public
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The government has the willingness to use this technology but they are not willing to close the borders or enforce the immigration laws that are already in the books. Nice.
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You don't see how this could be used for very unconstitutional means?
You don't care about law abiding citizens, but you're still basically mapping out their day to day movements...
I can only speak to how it was used, not how it could be/might be used. I think the general population has an unrealistic perception of how much the average police care what you do. Our use of the plate scanning revolved around recovering stolen vehicles and getting hits on felony warrants. With literally thousands of plates being scanned in over a few hours time, I can't imagine anyone of us caring about any plate but the ones that come up hot. I just don't think the average police department is as diabolical or has the resources to do all the things we are thought to do.
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and that's a problem, why?
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I can only speak to how it was used, not how it could be/might be used. I think the general population has an unrealistic perception of how much the average police care what you do. Our use of the plate scanning revolved around recovering stolen vehicles and getting hits on felony warrants. With literally thousands of plates being scanned in over a few hours time, I can't imagine anyone of us caring about any plate but the ones that come up hot. I just don't think the average police department is as diabolical or has the resources to do all the things we are thought to do.
Perhaps not yet, ...but you can see where the application of this technology in the wrong hands,
...and for the wrong reasons can be potentially problematic don't you? Given the increasing psycopathy we are being witness to, do you really trust those who may come behind you?
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Perhaps not yet, ...but you can see where the application of this technology in the wrong hands,
...and for the wrong reasons can be potentially problematic don't you? Given the increasing psycopathy we are being witness to, do you really trust those who may come behind you?
I suppose a group of folks said that about fingerprinting, DNA forensics, NCIC, Infra red search capabilities and about any other technology and advancement made over the last 100 yrs..
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I suppose a group of folks said that about fingerprinting, DNA forensics, NCIC, Infra red search capabilities and about any other technology and advancement made over the last 100 yrs..
And all of those things HAVE in some way been used for nefarious activities.
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And all of those things HAVE in some way been used for nefarious activities.
Then I propose we simply stop any advancement in technology because you believe those things have been used in some nefarious activities. In fact, lets go back to the technology of 1900.
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Then I propose we simply stop any advancement in technology because you believe those things have been used in some nefarious activities. In fact, lets go back to the technology of 1900.
if we did that we be stuck only being paraniod about the things we don't hear about. what would the fear propaganda machine do with itself?
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I suppose a group of folks said that about fingerprinting, DNA forensics, NCIC, Infra red search capabilities and about any other technology and advancement made over the last 100 yrs..
Those technologies, when properly used, target criminals or people reasonably believed to have committed a crime.
This technology targets everyone.
As this is just an extension of what cops can do on their own one by one, it's probably not unconstitutional...but it's still creepy, especially in the hands of a dishonest cop like you.
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Those technologies, when properly used, target criminals or people reasonably believed to have committed a crime.
This technology targets everyone.
As this is just an extension of what cops can do on their own one by one, it's probably not unconstitutional...but it's still creepy, especially in the hands of a dishonest cop like you.
Anyone need an example of someone who is irrational and thinks all cops are dishonest but his brother the cop and a few friends ... look no further ;)
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Anyone need an example of someone who is irrational and thinks all cops but his brother and a few friends are "okay"? look no further ..
I never said all cops were like that. In fact, I've indicated on several occassions that many are decent.
Just because you've been nailed lying mulitple times, doesn't mean other cops are bad.
We'll chalk this up as yet another lie from you.
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I suppose a group of folks said that about fingerprinting, DNA forensics, NCIC, Infra red search capabilities and about any other technology and advancement made over the last 100 yrs..
And we've seen them all abused haven't we. One case that stands out for me was the case of a woman convicted on fingerprint evidence. Years later she was released from custody when police officers confessed to having planted her fingerprints at he scene.
That said... you still haven't answered my question. Telling me what others have said over the past 100 years doesn't tell me how YOU feel or what YOU think, ...or has HR 347 got you too scared to speak your mind? ;)
Can you see where the application of this technology in the wrong hands, ...and for the wrong reasons can be potentially problematic? Given the increasing psycopathy we are being witness to, do you really trust those who may come behind you?
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I never said all cops were like that. In fact, I've indicated on several occassions that many are decent.
Just because you've been nailed lying mulitple times, doesn't mean other cops are bad.
We'll chalk this up as yet another lie from you.
Surprised you can see the monitor being as full of Sh*t as you are Skip ;)
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And we've seen them all abused haven't we. One case that stands out for me was the case of a woman convicted on fingerprint evidence. Years later she was released from custody when police officers confessed to having planted her fingerprints at he scene.
That said... you still haven't answered my question. Telling me what others have said over the past 100 years doesn't tell me how YOU feel or what YOU think, ...or has HR 347 got you too scared to speak your mind? ;)
Can you see where the application of this technology in the wrong hands, ...and for the wrong reasons can be potentially problematic? Given the increasing psycopathy we are being witness to, do you really trust those who may come behind you?
I thought I answered it. I think technology and advances in forensics is overwhelmingly a good thing. I would not fail to advance because of a few isolated instances of abuse in almost any area. And yes, I have no reason at this point to think the person who just got hired doesn't have the same good intentions to help people that I did 30 yrs ago. I actually see my profession becoming even more professional as time goes by. There will always be a small minority that will abuse anything.. I don't see that as a reason to throw in the towel
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Then I propose we simply stop any advancement in technology because you believe those things have been used in some nefarious activities. In fact, lets go back to the technology of 1900.
How about we simply stop using the technology for fascism?
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How about we simply stop using the technology for fascism?
is it being used for that?
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is it being used for that?
Yes... Yes it is.
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Here's the article, from the editors at Associated Press (search keywords with AP to find several sources):
LITTLE ROCK, Ark. (AP) — Little Rock may not be a likely terrorism target or a gang crime hotspot, but the Arkansas capital has decided to follow the example of high-security cities by expanding electronic surveillance of its streets.
A police car with a device that photographs license plates moves through the city and scans the traffic on the streets, relaying the data it collects to a computer for sifting. Police say the surveillance helps identify stolen cars and drivers with outstanding arrest warrants.
It also allows authorities to monitor where average citizens might be at any particular time. That bothers some residents, as well as groups that oppose public intrusions into individual privacy. The groups are becoming more alarmed about license plate tracking as a growing number of police departments acquire the technology.
Though authorities in Washington, D.C., London and Chicago conduct extensive electronic surveillance of public areas to detect security threats or deter gang crime, "Today, increasingly, even towns without stoplights have license plate readers," said Catherine Crump, a New York-based staff attorney with the American Civil Liberties Union.
In Little Rock, even some city officials wonder about keeping data on drivers' movements.
"It bothered me particularly if someone wasn't guilty of a crime or didn't have any active warrants or hadn't committed a crime," city director Ken Richardson said.
However, Little Rock Police Chief Stuart Thomas said the law enforcement benefits outweigh any concerns about possible abuse of the information, which, as a public record, is legally available for anyone to see. He said the department may get more of the devices.
"Should that potential of misuse therefore eliminate the capacity of law enforcement to collect data which has a legitimate purpose for the safety of our officers or the appropriateness of enforcement actions? I don't think so," he said.
Little Rock police bought the tracker last year for about $14,000, as interest in the technology began spreading in law enforcement circles. The purchase didn't require city council approval and didn't attract much attention in town.
"There was no public notice or anything," police spokeswoman Sgt. Cassandra Davis said.
Richardson said he didn't hear about the device until after it had been collecting data for months. He said he said he hasn't heard many complaints.
"It's hard for you to have a problem with something if you don't know it's going on," he said.
Many Little Rock residents apparently still haven't heard about the surveillance. Angel Weston, 45, said she's glad to hear that police are looking for stolen cars and people with warrants but wondered about keeping logs of citizens' movements.
"I don't feel like they should keep the data for six or 12 months," Weston said.
Lawmakers in several states, including Minnesota and Utah, have suggested setting a time limit for their departments, but Little Rock has no policy yet. The department now has a growing archive of license plate photos, along with time stamps and the locations, showing where motorists were at certain times.
Privacy advocates worry about the potential uses for such outside law enforcement, from snooping by stalkers and private investigators to businesses that sell personal data.
"Given how few rules are currently on the books to protect our privacy, it's plausible that private investigators and data-mining companies could acquire this location data," Crump said. So far, the organization has requested more information from government agencies, but hasn't filed any lawsuits, Crump said.
Little Rock's license plate reader is mounted in Officer Grant Humphries' patrol car. He said it's led to dozens of arrests and the recovery of a number of stolen vehicles and vehicles and license plates, although the exact number isn't known.
As Humphries drives around town, a laptop processes the license plate numbers being photographed and emits a sound and flashes red when it finds a match.
On a recent drive, Humphries fell in behind an SUV and pulled it over after the laptop went off.
Moments later, he and another officer arrested passenger Montague Martin, who was wanted on outstanding warrants.
As he sat handcuffed in the back of the patrol car, Martin said he thought the license plate reader was a good idea.
"I'm not mad at what they're doing," Martin said before Humphries drove him to jail. "They're doing their job. I just didn't pay my ticket on time."
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Yes... Yes it is.
I suspect you've vastly overestimated our government's interest in your whereabouts, assuming you are not a criminal.
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I suspect you've vastly overestimated our government's interest in your whereabouts, assuming you are not a criminal.
I suspect you vastly underestimate the government's desire to invade your personal life.
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If you don't have anything to hide...
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...right?
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If you don't have anything to hide...
There were a lot of Jewish people in Germany that said that I'm sure.
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There were a lot of Jewish people in Germany that said that I'm sure.
We'll continue to fight, all the way down the line, against people who will proclaim that security demands this, and that they "don't have anything to hide".
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By the way, it should be noted that ALL information gathered by these devices is processed, stored, reprocessed, etc., at the whim of the entity that controls it, and it is supposed to be an achievement of some concession, when an occasional several-month time limit is placed on the storage of the information. Absolutely batshit, that we still have morons that don't get it.
We are talking about something that can only be described as an attempt to replicate full awareness--meaning a maintained, real-time reading of all aspects of an innocent person's movements and activities. Whether or not you feel you "have something to hide", you'd better understand how this replication of awareness will funnel power away from citizens and toward elitist structures. Every person, no matter how dumb, no matter how comfortable he or she is with their crypto-fascist ways and smug comments, right now, needs to understand that.
These partial steps, such as license plate tracking, should be fought--HARD. A person needs to stand against it, at the very least, and make his or her stand known, and I mean loudly.
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I suspect you vastly underestimate the government's desire to invade your personal life.
I suspect I will fill in this post with a proper response to your and Jack's comments in this thread sometime later in the week because I am too lazy at present.
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I suspect I will fill in this post with a proper response to your and Jack's comments in this thread sometime later in the week because I am too lazy at present.
I suspect I will eagerly await your response.
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I'm looking forward to it, too...
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What's going to happen when some divorce lawyer subpoenas these records to prove some clients spouse was fucking some chick at the motel?
Ya gotta wonder.
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If you don't have anything to hide...
An appropriate response to that is... It's not a matter of what you may have to hide.
It is a matter of what you intend to maintain... your absolute right to privacy.
What ever happened to the necessity of probable cause to cooduct a search?
Random searches contravene the 4th amendment imo, ...but I'm no constitutional lawyer ... like obama.
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What's going to happen when some divorce lawyer subpoenas these records to prove some clients spouse was fucking some chick at the motel?
Ya gotta wonder.
What's to wonder? Aside from the MAJOR ALIMONY, ...the outcome is obvious!!!
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An appropriate response to that is... It's not a matter of what you may have to hide.
It is a matter of what you intend to maintain... your absolute right to privacy.
What ever happened to the necessity of probable cause to cooduct a search?
Random searches contravene the 4th amendment imo, ...but I'm no constitutional lawyer ... like obama.
Why would equate getting information from a publicly displayed license plate as a search?
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Why would equate getting information from a publicly displayed license plate as a search?
Now you're simply playing with semantics.
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Now you're simply playing with semantics.
No, you actually were equating license plate scanning to a search requiring p.c. If not, you were not very clear you were not on the same topic as everyone else
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What's going to happen when some divorce lawyer subpoenas these records to prove some clients spouse was fucking some chick at the motel?
Ya gotta wonder.
good for the spouse!
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Why would equate getting information from a publicly displayed license plate as a search?
I see you went on to clarify further, in your next post.
Because it is a search. There's no other way to describe it.
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I see you went on to clarify further, in your next post.
Because it is a search. There's no other way to describe it.
No, it's not a search. Certainly privacy issues involved depending on how they treat the data with people who aren't doing anything wrong.
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No, it's not a search. Certainly privacy issues involved depending on how they treat the data with people who aren't doing anything wrong.
Maybe I'm misreading your intention, here, but the fact that the information would even be stored (which it is), at the absolute minimum, means that it is a search. (if that's what you were saying in your post, sorry for the redundancy :))
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...the obvious kicker is that it is presumably in a public place.
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Lawmakers in several states, including Minnesota and Utah, have suggested setting a time limit for their departments, but Little Rock has no policy yet. The department now has a growing archive of license plate photos, along with time stamps and the locations, showing where motorists were at certain times.
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...even without a single other consideration, of which there are others, that's enough to define it as a search.
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Maybe I'm misreading your intention, here, but the fact that the information would even be stored (which it is), at the absolute minimum, means that it is a search. (if that's what you were saying in your post, sorry for the redundancy :))
If you're referring to a database search, then I suppose so...but I'm referencing in terms of a 4th amendment search.
I've never heard of any protection against the police referencing DMV/DOT data.
But, the SCOTUS has ruled we have a right to privacy. So, the more pertinent issue, IMO, is whether or not holding this data violates that protection.
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If you're referring to a database search, then I suppose so...but I'm referencing in terms of a 4th amendment search.
I've never heard of any protection against the police referencing DMV/DOT data.
But, the SCOTUS has ruled we have a right to privacy. So, the more pertinent issue, IMO, is whether or not holding this data violates that protection.
Exactly. It is done with an absolute intent to search. There's no way around that.
The idea is that it's intended as tool to be used in a public place, meaning that it's "ok" to begin a composite structure of information pertaining to the timed whereabouts of all citizens. Again, there's no way around that conclusion.
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What needs to happen, is that the search MUST be limited to storing data that pertains to the legal issues that a cop on a routine traffic stop would deal with. There MUST be a way to guarantee that all other information is removed as it is processed. Removed. Period.
And people know this shit. The guys implementing this stuff know it. There's no "confusion" about what's proper.
Please, to anyone, don't kid yourself about this.
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Crazy, crazy world, man.
But so fucking predictable, when we allow the psychopaths to set the score.
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Exactly. It is done with an absolute intent to search. There's no way around that.
The idea is that it's intended as tool to be used in a public place, meaning that it's "ok" to begin a composite structure of information pertaining to the timed whereabouts of all citizens. Again, there's no way around that conclusion.
Well the database search is merely an extension of what a cop could do on their own, so I don't see that as going anywhere. Perfectly legal as far as I know (I'm no attorney though).
Agreed on the privacy aspect.
A more amusing question is whether or not the cops supporting this technology on the basis of it being 'public' info, are also against being filmed while doing their job in public.
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Well the database search is merely an extension of what a cop could do on their own, so I don't see that as going anywhere. Perfectly legal as far as I know (I'm no attorney though).
Agreed on the privacy aspect.
What do you mean, Skip? That cops, theoretically, could drive around entering license plates manually?
A more amusing question is whether or not the cops supporting this technology on the basis of it being 'public' info, are also against being filmed while doing their job in public.
I'd love to hear one of them explain. Because you know there are many, many cops who would try to defend both stances.
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What do you mean, Skip? That cops, theoretically, could drive around entering license plates manually?
I'd love to hear one of them explain. Because you know there are many, many cops who would try to defend both stances.
Yeah basically. This technology just automates police manually checking and noting plates. I don't think they need any reason to run your plates.
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Yeah basically. This technology just automates police manually checking and noting plates. I don't think they need any reason to run your plates.
I'm not sure if it would be possible to build a meaningful database in such a way, but you never know...lol
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Excellent point on the potential hypocrisy of the average cop regarding this, versus being recorded. I'd love for 007 and other cops to state their opinions.
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As long as cops can get away with the shit they pull off(see the police state thread) their access to technology and things that yields them power should be limited.
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You know, it's funny. If you think about what Skip was saying, regarding that, theoretically, cops could spend all free time recording license plates, locations, times, etc., it really puts things into perspective. Imagine how the conversation would be different, if that was the case.
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Well the database search is merely an extension of what a cop could do on their own, so I don't see that as going anywhere. Perfectly legal as far as I know (I'm no attorney though).
Agreed on the privacy aspect.
A more amusing question is whether or not the cops supporting this technology on the basis of it being 'public' info, are also against being filmed while doing their job in public.
...and while supposedly in the capacity of "public servants" hmmmm... quite the contradiction wouldn't you say?
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...and while supposedly in the capacity of "public servants" hmmmm... quite the contradiction wouldn't you say?
This!!
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Well the database search is merely an extension of what a cop could do on their own, so I don't see that as going anywhere. Perfectly legal as far as I know (I'm no attorney though).
Agreed on the privacy aspect.
A more amusing question is whether or not the cops supporting this technology on the basis of it being 'public' info, are also against being filmed while doing their job in public.
I'm all for being filmed doing my job in public. My department films me, I have no expectation of privacy in the public sector. I don't understand some cops issue with this. Having said that, there are some groups that like to interject themselves in the cops face while they are conducting business, causing a safety issue. That, I'm opposed to, but filming me in general, have at it.
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I'm all for being filmed doing my job in public. My department films me, I have no expectation of privacy in the public sector. I don't understand some cops issue with this. Having said that, there are some groups that like to interject themselves in the cops face while they are conducting business, causing a safety issue. That, I'm opposed to, but filming me in general, have at it.
You would admit that there are a great many of your like who do not appreciate the filming... No?
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Fuck this shit.. im getting a bicycle
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Fuck this shit.. im getting a bicycle
then we'll be checking out your muscular ass and thighs.
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then we'll be checking out your muscular ass and thighs.
you forgot to put no homo
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you forgot to put no homo
why would I put that there? ;) it would be a mis statement. and immediately corrected by 333386.
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you forgot to put no homo
Chad is 100% homo.
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you forgot to put no homo
Chad is all homo/twink all the time. He trolls for hookups on this site. Maybe you should PM him and you two can exchange numbers.
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Chad is 100% homo.
awe shit... wtf
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awe shit... wtf
I dunno man... As one of my work colleagues says... "I do not understand the gay."
Chad seems alright though... He's a good-natured dude... You just gotta guard your backside around him.
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Chad is all homo/twink all the time. He trolls for hookups on this site. Maybe you should PM him and you two can exchange numbers.
no hook ups on this site. Even I have my standards. Anyone less qualified than you gets an automatic pass from me.
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I dunno man... As one of my work colleagues says... "I do not understand the gay."
Chad seems alright though... He's a good-natured dude... You just gotta guard your backside around him.
but that means you're agreeable for a little bj action? you can stay working right at your desk; i'll do the rest.
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no hook ups on this site. Even I have my standards. Anyone less qualified than you gets an automatic pass from me.
No thanks - I like chicks w booty and bog tits.
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but that means you're agreeable for a little bj action? you can stay working right at your desk; i'll do the rest.
Negative... Thanks for the offer though, but I'm good on the BJs... my woman hooks me up on the regular.
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Negative... Thanks for the offer though, but I'm good on the BJs... my woman hooks me up on the regular.
you are indeed lucky. Some of my best regular buds are married guys whose wives either stopped giving them head or they suck at it. literally.
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you are indeed lucky. Some of my best regular buds are married guys whose wives either stopped giving them head or they suck at it. literally.
Mine is fantastic... No complaints. No need to hi-jack the evil police thread to talk about my woman's skills in the blowjob realm.
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Mine is fantastic... No complaints. No need to hi-jack the evil police thread to talk about my woman's skills in the blowjob realm.
no, butt it was a nice diversion [while the police were looking up my license plate number]
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http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/17/nyregion/new-york-state-will-fight-fake-licenses-with-new-tactics.html?nl=nyregion&emc=edit_ur_20130317
Black and White and Wallet-Size, Unfit for Faking
By JESSE McKINLEY
ALBANY — Over the years, the authorities across the nation have tried all manner of tactics to combat fake drivers’ licenses. Holograms. Water marks. Even blunt red letters reading “UNDER 21.”
Now, however, New York is turning to a new design with a retro look: portraits in black and white.
Beginning in July, the state’s drivers who are seeking new licenses will be issued hard polycarbonate cards with photos that appear black and white, replacing the bendable color version, a move toward the monochromatic that is also being tried in several other states.
Officials in New York describe the new licenses as an important step in thwarting a thriving and sophisticated counterfeit market, often based online, that caters to underage drinkers. But the fakes can potentially be used for more serious crimes, including terrorism, the officials said.
“We see the New York driver’s license as the first line of defense,” J. David Sampson, executive deputy commissioner of the State Department of Motor Vehicles, said.
While the old-school images might seem odd, the new production method and a barrage of features both seen and unseen will make the licenses, officials say, virtually impossible to forge. Most critically, they say, the new licenses are laser engraved on rigid polycarbonate, replacing the current process of printing photos on more flexible material, which they say can be much more easily altered or fabricated. (While the photos at the D.M.V. will still be taken in color, the engraving is done in grayscale, hence the Ansel Adams feel.)
The new cards are so stiff that they sound like a compact disc when dropped. Personal data is also engraved, as is a “ghost image,” a small, second portrait of the driver that will float in a transparent window and will be visible from the front and the back. All of the elements are then fused together into what the department calls “a solid, monolithic structure that cannot be separated into layers and tampered with.”
After the success of a similarly designed United States passport card, New York is the second state to adopt this technology, which incorporates black-and-white images into a full color design. The first, in 2009, was Virginia. Since then, Pam Goheen, a spokeswoman for the Virginia Department of Motor Vehicles, said the department had not seen a “credible” forgery of a Virginia license, adding that those who tried had failed miserably.
“They’re really awful,” she said.
Still, the change in New York has generated some controversy.
A losing bidder for the license contract, De La Rue North America, has sued the Department of Motor Vehicles, contending that an eight-year deal with CBN Secure Technologies Inc., a United States subsidiary of the Canadian Bank Note Company, was granted unfairly. The contract for the production of the new licenses is worth up to $88.5 million, but department officials believe the actual cost could be closer to $70 million.
De La Rue, which makes the current bendable licenses, said that its proposal for the new contract cost significantly less than the winning bid. It also said it was not aware of the state’s preference for the more expensive, and more arty, polycarbonate. In an affidavit, a De La Rue official also argued that the polycarbonate cards could be less secure because they are produced in large sheets before they are personalized, and could be stolen and used to produce false identification.
The department would not comment on the legal challenge, but New York promises “the most counterfeit and tamper-resistant document technologically available” with some 30 security features, including embedded fine lines, variable patterns, micro-lettering.
It acknowledged that the new licenses would cost almost $1 more per license to produce and print. The department said that cost would not be passed on to drivers. It also said the waiting time for new licenses would not change.
Owen McShane, director of investigations for the department, said the cost of producing the licenses would be a deterrent to potential forgers.
“It’s hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars for an inscriber,” Mr. McShane said, referring to the engraving machine. “It’s not something a college student is going to be able to go out and get.”
Officials say that the rise of the online marketplace for fake IDs has made a crackdown even more essential.
One Web site, mr-i-d.com, lists its fake New York license as its most popular, though the site says in a disclaimer that its products are sold as novelties.
Other sites are less subtle, like the Espionage Unlimited Spy Shop and Spy Store (espionage-store.com/) which advertises “a bulletproof fake ID,” and photos of a young, cool crowd dancing in a bar.
“Let’s get straight to the point: you’re watching this video because you’re interested in getting a fake ID,” the voice-over declares in a video on the Espionage Unlimited site. “Whether you just want to go to the clubs and have drinks with your friends or you want to start a whole new life complete with a new identity, Social Security number, bank accounts, a credit score and more.”
New York and other states are also trying other strategies to fight fraud.
Gov. Andrew M. Cuomo announced this month that the Department of Motor Vehicles had used facial recognition technology to investigate some 13,000 cases of identity fraud over the last three years, resulting in about 2,500 arrests.
Raymond P. Martinez, the motor vehicle commission chairman in New Jersey and a former commissioner in New York, whose agency announced similar arrests in February, said the fake ID problem touched upon more than under-age drinking, listing crimes that sham documents could be used for, including benefit fraud and evasion of child support payments.
Still, Mr. Martinez said New Jersey had no plans to go grayscale.
“We like our license,” Mr. Martinez said. “We have a color photo which we are very happy with.”
Such state pride over documentation seems common. Virginia, for instance, says its license has 21 security elements, including raised lettering, the ghost image and various other unspoken identifiers.
There are “only about two people on the planet who know all of them,” Ms. Goheen, the Virginia spokeswoman, said, adding that it was “perhaps the most secure state-issued ID in the nation.”
North Carolina’s new polycarbonate licenses with black-and-white images, expected to make their debut at the end of the year or in early 2014, will have better stamina, said Margaret Howell, a Division of Motor Vehicles spokeswoman. The current plastic version, she added, was “vulnerable to durability, security and quality issues,” including bleeding of dye. Maryland is considering polycarbonate as well.
For its part, New York says its new licenses will put it “at the forefront of secure drivers license production and issuance.”
Both New York and Virginia owe a debt to the State Department, which began issuing polycarbonate passport cards with black-and-white portraits in 2008. The department has issued almost 6 million of these cards, which do not replace traditional passports but can be used to enter the United States by land and sea from Canada, Mexico, the Caribbean and Bermuda.
Mr. McShane of the Department of Motor Vehicles said his corps of 100 investigators had collected 1,450 counterfeit drivers’ licenses in underage drinking stings in 2012.
He said he had been amazed by the level of sophistication used by overseas forgers, who have shipped their product to underage customers in boxes of shoes (with the IDs hidden in the soles) or even in tea sets.
“It’s scary how far they’ll go,” he said.
He said he was pleased that the new licenses would be difficult to knock off.
“They’re always trying,” he said. “But hopefully this will encourage them to try another state.”
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Virginia driver's license has been like that for YEARS.
There are many fakes out there already... New York is already behind the curve and that curve has been faked for years.
They tried.