Getbig.com: American Bodybuilding, Fitness and Figure
Getbig Bodybuilding Boards => Steroids Info & Hardcore => Topic started by: OTHstrong on May 13, 2014, 03:46:58 PM
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I am asking this question because this is a common PM I get from naturals who want to cross over.
So let's say 25 years old, training for 7 years, has done his research.
Let's hear some thoughts gentleman so we can get some advice to people who are thinking of their first cycle. ;) 8)
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Assuming they are a good natural and committed to run a good first cycle?
250mg test
500mg NPP
After 10 weeks replace the NPP with
Tren A 350mg for 6 weeks
final 4 weeks up tren to 500mg
20 week first cycle i would do if i was starting again from natural.
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500mg's of test for 10 weeks.
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if I could do it over again...
first 10weeks
gram of cyp
500 deca
50mg/day proviron
second 10 weeks
gram of cyp
500 tren enanthate
50mg/day proviron
1mg arimidex/day the two days post cyp injections.
in my experience, there's no such thing as overkill.. if you don't experience 'side effects', and you can afford it, why not use higher doses? I've never understood the "overkill" thinking.. "that's too much, you don't NEED that much".. ect... well, we dont' NEED to use steroids to grow muscle either, do we? but we are, so why short change yourself... that's like having 1 arm bigger than the other, and instead of training the smaller arm harder, you neglect the strong arm in hopes of it not making the other arm look bad.
does a Lambo need 700hp to do 75mph on the freeway? no. not when a '96 civic has 170hp and can still do 75mph... just takes longer to get there.
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Test and nothing else in my opinion then after they see how they do they can try other shit but start low and easy
500mg's of test for 10 weeks.
I am leaning towards this^^
Plenty can be gained on test alone first time out
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500mg test is enough for like 10 weeks and slowly stepping up the game aftrr. But this is a hard question its what there goals are but that is what i recomend flr gymrats that dont have plans to compete...they have time to up the game
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After 7 years of committed natural training the person should know their body, and how it reacts to calorie ranges, cardio, water retention, macro ratios, training frequency - high volume low volume etc.
This entire dynamic changes when you add in even 250mg test a week. For example: on 250mg test a week you would maintain way more muscle mass on a serious "cut" than you ever would naturally.
And this is why I advocate starting with low dose test only for(ever) the first year...Yes a year. At 25 if you run serious cycles until you are, let's say 30, you will never recover 100% production. Or at least you should just assume you won't because it is a side effect...You won't know until you get there. It could never recover after 1 8 week "prohormone" cycle..So why "cycle" in the first place..
If you are 15% bf or higher: 250mg test to cut down to 8%, should take 12 weeks conservatively. It will give you time to learn what test feels like, how your body reacts to it, mess around with calories etc., learn how to use syringes, sterile practices etc. The subtleties of using injectables.
Once at 8%: 500mg test 500mg EQ spend the next 20 weeks putting on 1lb of weight per week. Be patient and super consistent.
After this it is really up to the guy, do different stuff...
Some fun intermediate ones..
200 test 500 tren 75 anavar. Get insanely strong...
200 test 2 grams of EQ. Put on actual muscle and not bloof...Lee Haney pounded EQ by the gram. Very mild stuff.
1 gram of test with 4 weeks superdrol, then dry out and cut on 250 test, and var, depleted as fuck...the week before your beach vacation, start the anadrol and carbs to fill up, pussy pulling stuff here...
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From what i have learned at getbig 6 grams is the sweet spot no matter what you use, but for beginners 4 grams should be the best.
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Dbol only cycle if scared of needles. Tapering up and down dosage
500mg Test only if willing to inject.
Combine test and dbol for next cycle. Add deca for the classic test, deca and dbol cycle for cycle 3.
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After 7 years of committed natural training the person should know their body, and how it reacts to calorie ranges, cardio, water retention, macro ratios, training frequency - high volume low volume etc.
This entire dynamic changes when you add in even 250mg test a week. For example: on 250mg test a week you would maintain way more muscle mass on a serious "cut" than you ever would naturally.
And this is why I advocate starting with low dose test only for(ever) the first year...Yes a year. At 25 if you run serious cycles until you are, let's say 30, you will never recover 100% production. Or at least you should just assume you won't because it is a side effect...You won't know until you get there. It could never recover after 1 8 week "prohormone" cycle..So why "cycle" in the first place..
If you are 15% bf or higher: 250mg test to cut down to 8%, should take 12 weeks conservatively. It will give you time to learn what test feels like, how your body reacts to it, mess around with calories etc., learn how to use syringes, sterile practices etc. The subtleties of using injectables.
Once at 8%: 500mg test 500mg EQ spend the next 20 weeks putting on 1lb of weight per week. Be patient and super consistent.
After this it is really up to the guy, do different stuff...
Some fun intermediate ones..
200 test 500 tren 75 anavar. Get insanely strong...
200 test 2 grams of EQ. Put on actual muscle and not bloof...Lee Haney pounded EQ by the gram. Very mild stuff.
1 gram of test with 4 weeks superdrol, then dry out and cut on 250 test, and var, depleted as fuck...the week before your beach vacation, start the anadrol and carbs to fill up, pussy pulling stuff here...
a lot of good info in this post
On a side note though, my last blood work after not injecting for only a few months was perfect, my test levels were normal, full production back no problem.
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500mg test
Easy, simple, know what to expect with testosterone
If I could do it over I would have used :
500mg to cut for 12 weeks
then another 12weeks to bulk on 750test and add either. 600mg deca or eq
The most biggest mistake most make is trying to gain weight when you are %15 body fat
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250mgs test e a week for 16 weeks
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250mgs test e a week for 16 weeks
Agreed with this. This is already so much over normal levels that results should be very significant if all parameters are in order.
Hell, I've been on 325 mg/w total, and just told my wife I needed to reduce to 225 mg/w* because after 7 months of his I am still growing! Slow and steady, don't get injured from rapidly increasing weights, don't get depressed when coming off dosages which are 10 times higher. In retrospect this is what I wished I had done.
*dropping from 125 mg test + 200 mast weekly to 125 test + 100 tren weekly. Grown out of yet another jacket in the last six weeks. :-\
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TL;DR- Dont be a pussy, use low test with a solid dose of an anabolic like NPP, and change your primary anabolic halfway thru to keep gains flowing steady. Smart usage of hormones in effective dosages and in the right combos along with solid training and diet are the key to success.
Some good and bad advice in here IMO especially about test. I don't disagree on a test only first cycle, as you will gain a fair bit and most will be happy with it... But you're not going to look like a bodybuilder really, only taking half a g of test. You can cry all you want that its all down to diet and whatnot, but the fact of the matter is that NO BODY ON THEIR FIRST CYCLE IS AT AN IDEAL POSITION TO BEGIN ANABOLIC STEROIDS. You start gear for a reason and that is because you are unhappy with how you look naturally. You can have all the natural training in the world, but the moment you do your first pin it is a totally different world.
The problem with a test only cycle is 99% of people who do a test only cycle are fucking retards and have no clue what they are doing. They either get fat as shit, gain a little then lose it when they come off, OR the 1% that look amazing on their first test only cycle.
The reason I DO NOT advocate a test only cycle is simply because a first time user is very likely to look like a pile of dog shit because of the aromatization of say 500mg Test, and thus be turned off to the magic that intelligent and planned AAS use can achieve. And yes, Steroids ARE magic if you know what you are doing and use high quality products (again, something most people do NOT have access to; the right knowledge, and the quality gear).
There are a lot of variables for a first timer, as most first timers do not start in an ideal situation of having gotten to a good 8% or below bf without hormones. Most start at a higher fat level, and experience the god awful estrogen side effects test at half a gram will give for a first timer at 15%.
The best advice I can possibly give is this.
Natural training is important, but I see nothing wrong with a person carrying a decent amount of muscle mass, with even as few as 6 months of consistent training and eating under their belt, doing a cycle.
4 conditions must be met in my opinion to get the most out of a first cycle.
1- Knowledge of training- must be able to train and stimulate the muscles to the fullest. Anyone can learn to train their body in 6 months.
2- knowledge of food. the word nutrition needs to be taken out of body building. Nutrition is something naturals care about. X amount of protein per meal and all that bull shit. Just fucking eat until you are full. Eat carbs and protein. And veges if you wish as well. Eat when hungry, eat until satisfied and make sure it is good stuff that your body can use to build muscle. Counting macros is for skinny chumps and delusional idiots. Ain't nobody got time for that shit.
3- Love of bodybuilding. You have to really love it, to stick a needle in your ass and shoot synthetic hormones into your body, hormones you have no idea what will they will do to you. Not only that, but you have to do this consistently. Also, learn to present yourself. So many people have no idea how good they can look if they just learned how to stand up straight with their shoulders back. There's a reason Paul Dillet didn't live up to his potential and it had nothing to do with his condition or size. Guy couldn't present himself to save his life. Use that mirror, you bought it for a reason.
4- Ability to commit to at least 20 weeks of pinning. A 10 or 12 week cycle is going to curtail ones gains significantly. I'll explain- you need to have the gear in your blood for an extended period of time. Your initial few weeks gaining muscle and enjoying the training are all well and good, anyone's going to grow for the first 10 weeks. But for the muscle you have gained to mature and solidify on your physique you need more time on than just 10 weeks. Every one of my cycles have been at least 20 weeks long; even when I am off cycle and training unenhanced, I hold more muscle mass than ANY natural ever can (except for some blacks and maybe some eastern european freaks of nature) at my normal bodyfat, which is around 9%. Steroids build significant muscle that you keep, even if it's not blown up with drugs it's still there. This is what many refer to as muscle memory.
As for my advice to any beginner? Get as lean as humanly possible WITHOUT STEROIDS OR OTHER PED's. but at the same time, DON'T go and turn into a puny twig. Aim for 8%, this is an EXCELLENT place to begin. From here, it's very simple to design a cycle. Fuck asking about goals or any of that, we all want the same thing unless we're talking about a powerlifter here. We want to be lean, and big. What will get us there in the most efficient manner?
Well. You need to know your drugs and what they actually do to your body. Learn what each on does to the physique, how it contributes to a specific 'look' and from there you can piece together your cycle.
I recommended in a post above to use 250mg weekly of a long estered testosterone, this is a bit over a TRT dose and it can build muscle on it's own, but it is mostly to support the heavy hitter- the ANABOLIC STEROID NANDROLONE. In this case I prefer NPP, a short estered version of Nandrolone. Using a higher dosage of androgens than anabolics is a bad idea for most, you will hold a lot of water. I believe NPP to be the best beginner friendly anabolic because it kicks in quickly, water retention is low compared to its big brother Deca, and you will gain a lot of muscle on this anabolic if used in an effective dose (no, a 200mg weekly dosage to 'test the waters' ::) is not an effective dosage). So to that effect 500mg of NPP weekly is ideal.
BUT ITS A SHORT ESTER! OH NO I HAVE TO PIN MORE THAN ONCE A WEEK.
BIG FUCKING DEAL. The pain in your muscles when you train is 10x more painful than an injection into ones glute or delt. Get used to pinning. The pinning schedule for 250mg Test E and 500mg NPP is 1cc weekly of the test, make it the first pin of the week, and every other day pin 150mg of the NPP. Use 1.5 inch pins into the glutes.
In 10 weeks you should see drastic changes to your body sticking to this routine.
At the 10 week mark, begin pinning Tren Ace (by now you should be fine to handle a low dosage of Tren; this drug is NOWEHERE NEAR AS BAD AS PEOPLE MAKE IT OUT TO BE) 100mg every other day instead of the NPP. At week 16 up the tren to 150mg EOD, you will look ridiculous and you will be VERY happy with your first cycle. Also, the only side effects you are likely to have are night sweats, a bit of insomnia, and maybe some acne if you didn't keep as clean as you should (hygiene is very important on cycle).
Want to have a great start to being the best bodybuilder you can be? Take this advice.
1-10 250mg Test E 500mg NPP, pin the test on your first pin of the week along with 150mg EOD of the NPP
11-16- Keep the test the same, drop the NPP add in Tren Ace at 100mg EOD
17-20 Keep the test the same, or you can halve it to 125mg weekly to get a bit drier, either way up the Tren Ace to 150mg EOD this is what gets you results not a pussy dosage of test E.
If you just want to look like an average gym rat rocking 15 inch arms at 15% 190lbs then go ahead and use your test only cycle. Don't go crying on the boards when you end up with gyno, a shit ton of water retention, and no gains remaining after 6 weeks of being off.
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lots of good info in this thread, very nice. 8)
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if I could do it over again...
first 10weeks
gram of cyp
500 deca
50mg/day proviron
second 10 weeks
gram of cyp
500 tren enanthate
50mg/day proviron
1mg arimidex/day the two days post cyp injections.
in my experience, there's no such thing as overkill.. if you don't experience 'side effects', and you can afford it, why not use higher doses? I've never understood the "overkill" thinking.. "that's too much, you don't NEED that much".. ect... well, we dont' NEED to use steroids to grow muscle either, do we? but we are, so why short change yourself... that's like having 1 arm bigger than the other, and instead of training the smaller arm harder, you neglect the strong arm in hopes of it not making the other arm look bad.
does a Lambo need 700hp to do 75mph on the freeway? no. not when a '96 civic has 170hp and can still do 75mph... just takes longer to get there.
This is a first time user ????????
Thats the type of course a dealer would recommend to a gym rat who had too much money.
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This is a first time user ????????
Thats the type of course a dealer would recommend to a gym rat who had too much money.
Really? because if I wanted profit, id have him using products with huge margins.. Like lots of test and methyltrienolone.
Stick to talking about things you have experience with, like advising 250Mg-wk "cycles" while you use a gram and saying to yourself "I blow those guys away".
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Personally not a big fan of the 250mg dose test only cycle recommendations. Not near the results most are going to want to see, imo. Not saying you should overdose either but to me that is too little to make it really worthwhile in the overall grand scheme of things. You'll get some results.
And actually depending on how much it aromatizes/body reacts to it you may get little to none. I was receiving pharma grade test cyp at 200mg a week for a bit and put me at just above high normal levels or just below that (would have to look back at my bloodwork). Estrogen was at 75 so a lot was aromatizing as well.
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Fuck bro why the tren for first time that's overkill this cycle is over the to
I would disagree with this as well. Most issues with tren are caused by paranoia/message boards, imo. All those at my gym who I know don't frequent boards, etc. rarely have any issues except the cardio one comes up a bit.
Not saying you won't but I find that people often get "sides" from simply hearing/reading about them. There are sides to all of them and tren doesn't seem to give any more percentage-wise then any of the others from what I've seen.
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Personally not a big fan of the 250mg dose test only cycle recommendations. Not near the results most are going to want to see, imo. Not saying you should overdose either but to me that is too little to make it really worthwhile in the overall grand scheme of things. You'll get some results.
And actually depending on how much it aromatizes/body reacts to it you may get little to none. I was receiving pharma grade test cyp at 200mg a week for a bit and put me at just above high normal levels or just below that (would have to look back at my bloodwork). Estrogen was at 75 so a lot was aromatizing as well.
I seriously doubt 200mg/wk of pharma cyp put you just above high... as that's 2x the regular hrt dose that puts most ppl around 900. 2 days post injection (of 200mg cyp, 13-14days since your last injection) should put you at 1200-1400 and will decrease to 750-900 about 10days post injection.. that's true for 90% of those who use HRT, myself included.. and my test was sub-100 w/o hrt (for many months, not just clean for a few months and got tested).
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Really? because if I wanted profit, id have him using products with huge margins.. Like lots of test and methyltrienolone.
Stick to talking about things you have experience with, like advising 250Mg-wk "cycles" while you use a gram and saying to yourself "I blow those guys away".
A first time user will make big gains from 250mgs of test if you are cut out for the sport.
If you dont then its not for you.
People should accept their genetic limitations.
Its people like you that simply doesnt respond to sensible dosages and have to take more than pro level dosages to look mediocre.
Take up racket ball.
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I'm doing perfectly well on 250mg weekly. Don't see any reason to up the dose or add anything in....
Start low and increase dose slowly. I wouldn't come off! Perhaps after a year if I was happy with the size I had. You'll grow better with a good dose of testosterone than a low dose + some anabolics so I don't think anything but testosterone is needed at the beginner level. 500mg of test a week over 2 years with decent training will have you looking pretty large
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A first time user will make big gains from 250mgs of test if you are cut out for the sport.
If you dont then its not for you.
People should accept their genetic limitations.
Its people like you that simply doesnt respond to sensible dosages and have to take more than pro level dosages to look mediocre.
Take up racket ball.
people like me? lol.. have you read any of my posts? I've said repeatedly that I look the same, give or take hardness and vascularity, whether I use 1g or 3g or 6g.
and how many people actually QUIT bodybuilding because 'it's not for them'? are you really that clueless? lol...
like you're the bodybuilding gatekeeper, with the say-so of who gets to train and use drugs... you have a problem with me, yet your little buddy Autismhalo is on plenty of drugs and has yet to break the 200lb barrier. lol... fucking clueless.
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people like me? lol.. have you read any of my posts? I've said repeatedly that I look the same, give or take hardness and vascularity, whether I use 1g or 3g or 6g.
and how many people actually QUIT bodybuilding because 'it's not for them'? are you really that clueless? lol...
like you're the bodybuilding gatekeeper, with the say-so of who gets to train and use drugs... you have a problem with me, yet your little buddy Autismhalo is on plenty of drugs and has yet to break the 200lb barrier. lol... fucking clueless.
lmao ;D
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lmao ;D
What about starting with 6g of peace
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people like me? lol.. have you read any of my posts? I've said repeatedly that I look the same, give or take hardness and vascularity, whether I use 1g or 3g or 6g.
and how many people actually QUIT bodybuilding because 'it's not for them'? are you really that clueless? lol...
like you're the bodybuilding gatekeeper, with the say-so of who gets to train and use drugs... you have a problem with me, yet your little buddy Autismhalo is on plenty of drugs and has yet to break the 200lb barrier. lol... fucking clueless.
Hardness and vascularity?
In your latest photo you look exactly the same as your old photos just bloated with water and oil.
So when we all laughed at your old photos and you claimed you dont look like that anymore you were lying?
6gms of gear to look like "gingernut"
(https://topicalisle.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/carrottop1.jpg)
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would you 2 please stop already, this is good thread without you guys bickering
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Long post with some things I agree with, some that I don't. Especially this strange disconnect: steroids are magic -- yet you need to use a fuckton of them to see any results. ???
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Long post with some things I agree with, some that I don't. Especially this strange disconnect: steroids are magic -- yet you need to use a fuckton of them to see any results. ???
a negligible test dosage with 500mg of npp is not a fuck ton
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a negligible test dosage with 500mg of npp is not a fuck ton
at the absolute minimum 250mg test is double natural levels. For many it will triple or quadruple the test in their system. I would hardly call that negligible.
Of course we are both guilty of using n=1 examples, but as mentioned earlier I am reducing my dose to 225 mg weekly in total, because my growth isn't stopping even after nearly 8 months. All fun and games until you grow out of tailored jackets every 2-3 months...
Also I disagree (for part of the population at least) with your comments on diet. Counting macros is indeed mostly unnecessary, but having some idea of kcals is vital for proper growth. Many eat too little and delude themselves they are gorging themselves. Others (like me) would be 400 lbs if we kept eating what we wanted.
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I seriously doubt 200mg/wk of pharma cyp put you just above high... as that's 2x the regular hrt dose that puts most ppl around 900. 2 days post injection (of 200mg cyp, 13-14days since your last injection) should put you at 1200-1400 and will decrease to 750-900 about 10days post injection.. that's true for 90% of those who use HRT, myself included.. and my test was sub-100 w/o hrt (for many months, not just clean for a few months and got tested).
It was for trt and received shots direct from dr....
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It was for trt and received shots direct from dr....
you sure it was 200mg/wk? and not 100mg?
your bloodwork seems about 1/2 what it should be for 200mg/wk.
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Sounds about right to me
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out of respect for my man OTH I'll contribute to this thread in a positive manner, altho ripping a certain poster a new one for his 'advice' could probably be one of the more positive courses of action I could take esp given I'm sure first time users are reading this thread.
enanthate. 300-400mg a wk.
it's like this. if you want a body that will hold a shit ton of dense rock hard muscle when you are in your 40's with relatively little effort, then the more time you take to create that build, using the least amount of chemicals necessary is the course to take.
if you want to look like a chemical dumpsite with no quality muscle, bloaty, acne ridden and unhealthy feel free to follow ESFitness' advise.
ok I cant do this any longer. sorry OTH I tried.
ESF you look like SHIT. I've saw the pic you took in the gym in the sleeveless top. HOW THE FUCK CAN YOU GIVE OUT ADVISE LOOKING LIKE THAT? do you think the way you look validate the use of such heavy cycles for a beginner.
bro, your a fucking headcase. like you have serious mental issues. your a retard.
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out of respect for my man OTH I'll contribute to this thread in a positive manner, altho ripping a certain poster a new one for his 'advice' could probably be one of the more positive courses of action I could take esp given I'm sure first time users are reading this thread.
enanthate. 300-400mg a wk.
it's like this. if you want a body that will hold a shit ton of dense rock hard muscle when you are in your 40's with relatively little effort, then the more time you take to create that build, using the least amount of chemicals necessary is the course to take.
if you want to look like a chemical dumpsite with no quality muscle, bloaty, acne ridden and unhealthy feel free to follow ESFitness' advise.
ok I cant do this any longer. sorry OTH I tried.
ESF you look like SHIT. I've saw the pic you took in the gym in the sleeveless top. HOW THE FUCK CAN YOU GIVE OUT ADVISE LOOKING LIKE THAT? do you think the way you look validate the use of such heavy cycles for a beginner.
bro, your a fucking headcase. like you have serious mental issues. your a retard.
such heavy cycles? lol a gram of test and 500 tren? lol.. bwahahaha.
you know, it's the pieces of shit like yourself who advocate the minimal doses for 2 reasons...
reason 1, you yourself use 2-3x the amount and are too insecure (and you ARE insecure, just judging my your posts it's blatant) to tell others the 'truth' and would rather hold others back to make yourself look 'better'.
reason 2, you yourself have zero experience using higher doses.. which brings back the 'the world is flat' analogy. you have no experience with something, yet you cry about it being dangerous and all the bad things that come with it. i.e. you're talking out of your ass.
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such heavy cycles? lol a gram of test and 500 tren? lol.. bwahahaha.you know, it's the pieces of shit like yourself who advocate the minimal doses for 2 reasons...
reason 1, you yourself use 2-3x the amount and are too insecure (and you ARE insecure, just judging my your posts it's blatant) to tell others the 'truth' and would rather hold others back to make yourself look 'better'.
reason 2, you yourself have zero experience using higher doses.. which brings back the 'the world is flat' analogy. you have no experience with something, yet you cry about it being dangerous and all the bad things that come with it. i.e. you're talking out of your ass.
Thats exactly what he means, you just dont realise what is a "heavy cycle" in the realms orf the rational man.
You think 4-6 gms is normal because you cant make gains on anything less, you have already said that apart from hardness you look no different on a gram than 6gms, if thats the case then why 6 gms? Seriously, an extra 5 gms to look harder when a drop in carbs and a tighter diet would do exactly the same.
Sorry OTH but no one is right, this guys retarded.
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:'(
fuck I give up, you guys are too much :-\
do what you want :P
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Autismhalo is on plenty of drugs and has yet to break the 200lb barrier. lol... fucking clueless.
HELLO EVERYBODY
FIRST CYCLE I DID 300MG TEST ENANTHATE FOR 12 WEEKS AND WENT FROM ABOUT 83KG TO 92KG BODYWEIGHT, FROM 15.5" ARM TO 16.5"
THE ONLY THING I REGRET ABOUT MY FIRST CYCLE IS ENDING IT, AFTER THAT THE RESULTS WERENT THE SAME THE SECOND CYCLE
I don't know what this "200 lbs BARRIER" is ESF speaks of", but if he means pressing 200lbs dumbbells, forget about it, not gonna happen folks.
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Thats exactly what he means, you just dont realise what is a "heavy cycle" in the realms orf the rational man.
You think 4-6 gms is normal because you cant make gains on anything less, you have already said that apart from hardness you look no different on a gram than 6gms, if thats the case then why 6 gms? Seriously, an extra 5 gms to look harder when a drop in carbs and a tighter diet would do exactly the same.
Sorry OTH but no one is right, this guys retarded.
because I can't make gains? when did I ever say that? you fucking troll... you know what's the limiting factor in my 'gains'? or how I look in general? it's fucking FOOD.. you fucking troll. re-read my posts.. search through them idiot.. you'll see it repeated by ME over and OVER.. fucking idiot.
I use what I use because I can.. doesn't cost me more than a couple dollars a week, so if my body can withstand it, which it can, obviously given my lack of health problems, why wouldn't I use it?
you don't like what I use? fine.. don't do what I do.
you know what whining and crying about what I do makes you? a bitch. 100% bitch.
keep trolling.
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Test E and EQ is probably one of the best first cycles one could use. 500mg range for both. Or Test and Deca. same dosage.I don't really believe in twice the amount of Test as the Deca dosage.
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because I can't make gains? when did I ever say that? you fucking troll... you know what's the limiting factor in my 'gains'? or how I look in general? it's fucking FOOD.. you fucking troll. re-read my posts.. search through them idiot.. you'll see it repeated by ME over and OVER.. fucking idiot.
I use what I use because I can.. doesn't cost me more than a couple dollars a week, so if my body can withstand it, which it can, obviously given my lack of health problems, why wouldn't I use it?
you don't like what I use? fine.. don't do what I do.
you know what whining and crying about what I do makes you? a bitch. 100% bitch.
keep trolling.
If food is the problem why you're not getting enough growth then why are you fat in those photos?
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:'(
fuck I give up, you guys are too much :-\
do what you want :P
Too bad. I actually respected your request. It might have been a very good discussion.
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out of respect for my man OTH I'll contribute to this thread in a positive manner, altho ripping a certain poster a new one for his 'advice' could probably be one of the more positive courses of action I could take esp given I'm sure first time users are reading this thread.
enanthate. 300-400mg a wk.
it's like this. if you want a body that will hold a shit ton of dense rock hard muscle when you are in your 40's with relatively little effort, then the more time you take to create that build, using the least amount of chemicals necessary is the course to take.
if you want to look like a chemical dumpsite with no quality muscle, bloaty, acne ridden and unhealthy feel free to follow ESFitness' advise.
ok I cant do this any longer. sorry OTH I tried.
ESF you look like SHIT. I've saw the pic you took in the gym in the sleeveless top. HOW THE FUCK CAN YOU GIVE OUT ADVISE LOOKING LIKE THAT? do you think the way you look validate the use of such heavy cycles for a beginner.
bro, your a fucking headcase. like you have serious mental issues. your a retard.
No one,
Although I completely agree with you, please let's keep this in the G&O. I've been known to 'disagree' with ESF as well, but at least he did post a picture now. And out of respect for the Steroid section I didn't even comment on it. Fucking hard not to, but I kept my mouth shut. ;D
Like many others I come to this section to learn. In order to learn I need to hear both sides of the story, not just the one I already agree with. Any lurkers and noobs reading this topic won't be convinced to start with rational dosages if all they see are personal attacks going back and forth. Let's fight this war with logic and science.
So please, as a personal appeal to you: Let's keep this section clean so that I and others like me can learn. Then get our low blows in over at the G&O. ;)
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If food is the problem why you're not getting enough growth then why are you fat in those photos?
Ouch
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This was mine and at one point I had a record of every pin I had ever shot charted, started with the fast esters and the log died... Week 1-20 500 mg Test E. Week 1-6 50mg D-Bol had 10s and took it through out the day. Week 3-14 300mg Deca. .25 dex EOD with the standard HCG/nolva/clomid pct. Blew up and not in a good way. Diet wasn't horrible, but not the best should have started leaner. I couldn't believe how strong I got and I got focused completely on strength gains. I don't think it matters what they run. 250-500 Test only is the norm and see how your body reacts to each compound blah blah blah, but seriously educating them before is more important. Make sure they're 10% or under, make sure they know how to diet but eat. The importance of labs. Set goals and stick to them, instead of setting PRs everyday really train to grow. Find out if dude is ready to lose a lot of it or is he going to cruise. For me cycles were okay, but cruising and blasting is where it's at and are they ready to make that commitment.
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If food is the problem why you're not getting enough growth then why are you fat in those photos?
good point
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If food is the problem why you're not getting enough growth then why are you fat in those photos?
That pretty much blows his whole theory out of the water.
The fact that hes fat clearly indicates hes eating too much food.
I await his response.
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because I can't make gains? when did I ever say that? you fucking troll... you know what's the limiting factor in my 'gains'? or how I look in general? it's fucking FOOD.. you fucking troll. re-read my posts.. search through them idiot.. you'll see it repeated by ME over and OVER.. fucking idiot.
I use what I use because I can.. doesn't cost me more than a couple dollars a week, so if my body can withstand it, which it can, obviously given my lack of health problems, why wouldn't I use it?you don't like what I use? fine.. don't do what I do.
you know what whining and crying about what I do makes you? a bitch. 100% bitch.
keep trolling.
Because its pointless.
You said yourself you look virtually the same taking 1 gram and 6 grams
Dont you see doing something thats pointless is pointless, why inject yourself 30 times aweek when you can do it twice for the same results?
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I think the most important thing for a first timer is to think long-term. If they're thinking in terms of weeks and not months or years, they'll blow up a little and then deflate just as quick.
Pick a dosage of test, 250-500/week, and run that consistently for months. You'll feel great, perform better in the gym, and look pretty good. It's cheap and side effects ought to be minimal. At that point, you'll have an idea of what steroids do and should be able to decide where to go from there
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For the record, I couldnt give a flying fuck what esfitness takes himself to look as bad as he does, its the advice he dispenses to others, especially threads like this regarding a first ever course.
gram of cyp
500 deca
50mg/day proviron
Do you realise that could cause some serious sides to a first time user?
I use 250mgs test a week, if I go to 500 I bloat and smooth over and any more than that generally feel unwell.
You also have advised in another post/thread, rather than drop your dose because of sides to take additional compounds to alleviate them????
Did it ever occur to you "sides" might be your bodies way of telling you its too much?
Just because you are a steroid "cum bucket" and they dont work on you dont presume everyone else is your genetic equal.
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^^^^that's a serious fuckin cycle ;D
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such heavy cycles? lol a gram of test and 500 tren? lol.. bwahahaha.
you know, it's the pieces of shit like yourself who advocate the minimal doses for 2 reasons...
reason 1, you yourself use 2-3x the amount and are too insecure (and you ARE insecure, just judging my your posts it's blatant) to tell others the 'truth' and would rather hold others back to make yourself look 'better'.
reason 2, you yourself have zero experience using higher doses.. which brings back the 'the world is flat' analogy. you have no experience with something, yet you cry about it being dangerous and all the bad things that come with it. i.e. you're talking out of your ass.
actually, no bozo. im a 235 pound 6% male who dwarfs you. i look like a god compared to the fucking disaster you are. as of 4 weeks ago for the summer i am using 1ml of summit winstrol every other day, and a 350 mg shot of tren e/mast e/ and e every 5 days. lol 2-3 times. bitch please.
the REASON i tell other to not use the cycles you adivse isnt because im worried about anyone looking better than me, as theres always someone better than me somewhere, but because its not needed. at all. WHAT THE FUCK DOES A FIRST TIME USER NEED 2G OF GEAR FOR YOU FUCKING CLOWN? lol my god your DENSE. like DUMB. jesus.
no experience w higher doses eh? i dont know many guys who have run 2g of tren ace a week alone. i have. know why i dont 'recommend' stupidly high doses? because they are not necessary. dont talk about things you have no clue about. it only makes you look more stupid and ignorant that you already come across as being.
how you ever looked in the mirror and asked yourself why you look like shit? like have you ever wondered why the fuck dont you look good despite the shit you use?
ever think that maybe, just MAYBE your body cant utilise properly the shit your pumping yourself full of? ever think that maybe more isnt better, that being smart is better?-and no, im not going to tell you how you could be doing it better, cause your a know it all who id be wasting my words on- of course not, you wouldnt think that maybe theres something else different you could be doing. because your not smart. your a clown who thinks the be all end all is in the needle, and how many ml he can jam in his ass.
and thats why you look like shit, and so will anyone else whos unfortunate enough to listen to your stupidity
and ps dont call me a piece of shit. thats not very nice.
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actually, no bozo. im a 235 pound 6% male who dwarfs you. i look like a god compared to the fucking disaster you are. as of 4 weeks ago for the summer i am using 1ml of summit winstrol every other day, and a 350 mg shot of tren e/mast e/ and e every 5 days. lol 2-3 times. bitch please.
the REASON i tell other to not use the cycles you adivse isnt because im worried about anyone looking better than me, as theres always someone better than me somewhere, but because its not needed. at all. WHAT THE FUCK DOES A FIRST TIME USER NEED 2G OF GEAR FOR YOU FUCKING CLOWN? lol my god your DENSE. like DUMB. jesus.
no experience w higher doses eh? i dont know many guys who have run 2g of tren ace a week alone. i have. know why i dont 'recommend' stupidly high doses? because they are not necessary. dont talk about things you have no clue about. it only makes you look more stupid and ignorant that you already come across as being.
how you ever looked in the mirror and asked yourself why you look like shit? like have you ever wondered why the fuck dont you look good despite the shit you use?
ever think that maybe, just MAYBE your body cant utilise properly the shit your pumping yourself full of? ever think that maybe more isnt better, that being smart is better?-and no, im not going to tell you how you could be doing it better, cause your a know it all who id be wasting my words on- of course not, you wouldnt think that maybe theres something else different you could be doing. because your not smart. your a clown who thinks the be all end all is in the needle, and how many ml he can jam in his ass.
and thats why you look like shit, and so will anyone else whos unfortunate enough to listen to your stupidity
and ps dont call me a piece of shit. thats not very nice.
(http://replygif.net/i/95.gif)
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ever think that maybe, just MAYBE your body cant utilise properly the shit your pumping yourself full of? ever think that maybe more isnt better, that being smart is better?-and no, im not going to tell you how you could be doing it better, cause your a know it all who id be wasting my words on- of course not, you wouldnt think that maybe theres something else different you could be doing. because your not smart. your a clown who thinks the be all end all is in the needle, and how many ml he can jam in his ass.
He has already admitted that apart from vascularity and a bit of additional hardness he looks the same off 1 gram as he does of 6gms, then I think the answer is staring him in the face.
I think he just likes to be the guy in the gym who takes the most.
TBH I think 90% of his gear is bunk.
200mgs of ISIS Parabolon and Im night sweating like a turkey on Christmas Eve.
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For the record, I couldnt give a flying fuck what esfitness takes himself to look as bad as he does, its the advice he dispenses to others, especially threads like this regarding a first ever course.
Do you realise that could cause some serious sides to a first time user?
I use 250mgs test a week, if I go to 500 I bloat and smooth over and any more than that generally feel unwell.
You also have advised in another post/thread, rather than drop your dose because of sides to take additional compounds to alleviate them????
Did it ever occur to you "sides" might be your bodies way of telling you its too much?
Just because you are a steroid "cum bucket" and they dont work on you dont presume everyone else is your genetic equal.
if you're afraid of 'side effects', maybe you shouldn't be using any steroids at all in the first place and stick to HRT and refrain from giving out steroid advice.. especially based on your very limited experience.
and I 'presume' everyone else is my genetic equal? dude, you're a straight up liar.. you make up this shit in your head and for whatever reason you believe it and expect others to believe it as well.. when did I ever say I assume everyone else is my genetic equal? lol
btw... am I the only one who's ever said run a gram of cyp and 500 tren e a week for a first cycle? lol
you're an clown dude. if I were you, I'd just hang myself and be done with it. your life is miserable.. waking up each morning with your mind occupied with what others are doing on a message board. you're 50yrs old, a nobody, washed up never-was bodybuilder who took last place at a bodybuilding show (at least you did the show.. then again, just shows how delusional you are, even though you lost, you're relegated to 'owning' people on bbing boards. lol.. fuckiig loser)... just hang yourself
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actually, no bozo. im a 235 pound 6% male who dwarfs you. i look like a god compared to the fucking disaster you are. as of 4 weeks ago for the summer i am using 1ml of summit winstrol every other day, and a 350 mg shot of tren e/mast e/ and e every 5 days. lol 2-3 times. bitch please.
the REASON i tell other to not use the cycles you adivse isnt because im worried about anyone looking better than me, as theres always someone better than me somewhere, but because its not needed. at all. WHAT THE FUCK DOES A FIRST TIME USER NEED 2G OF GEAR FOR YOU FUCKING CLOWN? lol my god your DENSE. like DUMB. jesus.
no experience w higher doses eh? i dont know many guys who have run 2g of tren ace a week alone. i have. know why i dont 'recommend' stupidly high doses? because they are not necessary. dont talk about things you have no clue about. it only makes you look more stupid and ignorant that you already come across as being.
how you ever looked in the mirror and asked yourself why you look like shit? like have you ever wondered why the fuck dont you look good despite the shit you use?
ever think that maybe, just MAYBE your body cant utilise properly the shit your pumping yourself full of? ever think that maybe more isnt better, that being smart is better?-and no, im not going to tell you how you could be doing it better, cause your a know it all who id be wasting my words on- of course not, you wouldnt think that maybe theres something else different you could be doing. because your not smart. your a clown who thinks the be all end all is in the needle, and how many ml he can jam in his ass.
and thats why you look like shit, and so will anyone else whos unfortunate enough to listen to your stupidity
and ps dont call me a piece of shit. thats not very nice.
i'll call you whatever I like, dimwit. you attack me, and you get what you get. you and your fanboys post up lies and think that if you repeat them enough, ppl will believe them.. so, you are a piece of shit.
lol@ you dwarfing me.
you realize how pathetic you are? you're an old man on a message board telling others how great you look... most of us grow out of that when we're 17 on these msg boards. yet, here you are, old enough to be the grandparent of some 17yr old kids baby, still going on about it. 50yrs old and still using steroids to "look good at the beach" and "look like a god" compared to other guys on msg boards? lol... that's pathetic... straight up pathetic. dieting and starving yourself so you look 'good'? for what?? lol.. so some girls who you'll NEVER fuck or have a relationship with (due to your complete lack of social skills) will give you a second glance? lol... absolutely pathetic.. and even at 50yrs old, you still haven't figured it out yet.
you want to talk about me and my advice being dangerous? lol.. dude you're 50 and still running tren, mast, winstrol, test and gh!... what's your PSA? how many times do you get up at night to piss? have fun at your next prostate exam.. fucking moron.
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if you're afraid of 'side effects', maybe you shouldn't be using any steroids at all in the first place and stick to HRT and refrain from giving out steroid advice.. especially based on your very limited experience.
and I 'presume' everyone else is my genetic equal? dude, you're a straight up liar.. you make up this shit in your head and for whatever reason you believe it and expect others to believe it as well.. when did I ever say I assume everyone else is my genetic equal? lol
btw... am I the only one who's ever said run a gram of cyp and 500 tren e a week for a first cycle? lol
you're an clown dude. if I were you, I'd just hang myself and be done with it. your life is miserable.. waking up each morning with your mind occupied with what others are doing on a message board. you're 50yrs old, a nobody, washed up never-was bodybuilder who took last place at a bodybuilding show (at least you did the show.. then again, just shows how delusional you are, even though you lost, you're relegated to 'owning' people on bbing boards. lol.. fuckiig loser)... just hang yourself
I get up every morning and look in the mirror and I stop....."is this really a 49 year old guy looking back at me?"
What do you see in the mirror?
A bloated mess with oil filled shoulders and 40 inch waist desperately wanting what I have.
The ability to look great with not a lot of effort.
You are chasing the impossible star, its never going to happen for you, nothing has happened up to now, what makes you think tomorrows going to be any different?
Keep chucking in the placebos because your gear cant be real.
As for being afraid of side effects, Im aware of them and I act accordingly, if I feel like shit, I listen to my body, you on the other hand just chuck in another pharmaceutical.
It will all end in tears, you will look in the mirror at 49 and think, "I wish this fucking oil would dissipate out of my shoulders now everything else has disappeared"
Thats if you ever get to 49
As for this
btw... am I the only one who's ever said run a gram of cyp and 500 tren e a week for a first cycle? lol
You are in this thread, its just guys like GH15 who used to spout shit like that.
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If food is the problem why you're not getting enough growth then why are you fat in those photos?
fat? lol
I still have abs and serratus, dude.
don't confuse water retention with fat.
and what 'photos'? the little billboard photo? that was at 15-17% bf, a few days after my release, after 5yrs of 200mg cyp every two weeks (legit hrt) eating ramen noodles and 4 jars of peanut butter a week, just trying to maintain a 230+ bodyweight.
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i'll call you whatever I like, dimwit. you attack me, and you get what you get. you and your fanboys post up lies and think that if you repeat them enough, ppl will believe them.. so, you are a piece of shit.
lol@ you dwarfing me.
you realize how pathetic you are? you're an old man on a message board telling others how great you look... most of us grow out of that when we're 17 on these msg boards. yet, here you are, old enough to be the grandparent of some 17yr old kids baby, still going on about it. 50yrs old and still using steroids to "look good at the beach" and "look like a god" compared to other guys on msg boards? lol... that's pathetic... straight up pathetic. dieting and starving yourself so you look 'good'? for what?? lol.. so some girls who you'll NEVER fuck or have a relationship with (due to your complete lack of social skills) will give you a second glance? lol... absolutely pathetic.. and even at 50yrs old, you still haven't figured it out yet.
you want to talk about me and my advice being dangerous? lol.. dude you're 50 and still running tren, mast, winstrol, test and gh!... what's your PSA? how many times do you get up at night to piss? have fun at your next prostate exam.. fucking moron.
Errr.....if you afraid of sides maybe you shouldnt be using steroids.
By the way, before you get yourself in too deep. ::)
(http://s14.postimg.org/ksyp7ubz5/was.jpg)
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fat? lol
I still have abs and serratus, dude.
don't confuse water retention with fat.
and what 'photos'? the little billboard photo? that was at 15-17% bf, a few days after my release, after 5yrs of 200mg cyp every two weeks (legit hrt) eating ramen noodles and 4 jars of peanut butter a week, just trying to maintain a 230+ bodyweight.
now theres a challenge.
Post a pic with your shirt off.( a clear one)
I fucking dare you.
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I get up every morning and look in the mirror and I stop....."is this really a 49 year old guy looking back at me?"
What do you see in the mirror?
A bloated mess with oil filled shoulders and 40 inch waist desperately wanting what I have.
The ability to look great with not a lot of effort.
You are chasing the impossible star, its never going to happen for you, nothing has happened up to now, what makes you think tomorrows going to be any different?
Keep chucking in the placebos because your gear cant be real.
As for being afraid of side effects, Im aware of them and I act accordingly, if I feel like shit, I listen to my body, you on the other hand just chuck in another pharmaceutical.
It will all end in tears, you will look in the mirror at 49 and think, "I wish this fucking oil would dissipate out of my shoulders now everything else has disappeared"
Thats if you ever get to 49
As for thisYou are in this thread, its just guys like GH15 who used to spout shit like that.
you're delusional.. I believe that you actually believe I want to look like you.. and that's sad, for you.
my waist is actually 34in buddy.. largest it's ever been was 41 when I was powerlifting, and haven't been over 34 in about 4yrs.
you really need to make up your mind... because before, you said I was a skinny little twink who's never been over 205... now I'm fat? lol... galeniko went this rout as well.
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now theres a challenge.
Post a pic with your shirt off.( a clear one)
I fucking dare you.
constantly begging me to post pictures, yet I've seen only 1 pic of you, after a show, which if you're doing a show really WAS the best you've ever looked, 10yrs ago... yet you beg and beg for others to post pics.
you notice how I never goad you or anybody else into posting pics?
because I don't care.. doesn't matter to me.. doesn't affect me one bit. how you look or anybody else looks doesn't impact my daily life 1 bit... but the way I look affects you in a big big way, as witnessed by your obsession with me and my appearance and you constantly comparing yourself to me.
I occupy so much space in your mind... you need counseling. maybe that's why you're single and have no friends and your entire life revolves around msg boards.
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constantly begging me to post pictures, yet I've seen only 1 pic of you, after a show, which if you're doing a show really WAS the best you've ever looked, 10yrs ago... yet you beg and beg for others to post pics.
you notice how I never goad you or anybody else into posting pics?
because I don't care.. doesn't matter to me.. doesn't affect me one bit. how you look or anybody else looks doesn't impact my daily life 1 bit... but the way I look affects you in a big big way, as witnessed by your obsession with me and my appearance and you constantly comparing yourself to me.
I occupy so much space in your mind... you need counseling. maybe that's why you're single and have no friends and your entire life revolves around msg boards.
Left 1996, Right 2013
(http://s30.postimg.org/k1c0g8981/17_years.jpg)
Its called consistency.
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Left 1996, Right 2013
(http://s30.postimg.org/k1c0g8981/17_years.jpg)
Its called consistency.
well, I'm not like you, I tend not to bash others physiques on here, no matter what the flaws... but if you think you're 'god-like'... you're delusional.
but like I said earlier... I really don't care how you look, in 96 or in 13. doesn't impact my life 1 bit... so if it make you happy, keep on comparing yourself to me.
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Translated as "Fuck me , my t-shirts staying on"
Dismissed.
says the guy who's only posted pics from his two contest showings. lol
epic irony.
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I think 250-400 test is about right. I have seen a 250 eq only cycle blow up a well trained lifter.
Something that I don't think people consider is that your natural test production is pulsatile and varies throughout the day. Exogenous test, your levels are consistently high. 250mg is well beyond the highest of gifted natural production.
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I'm really starting to question ESF's mental health. Constant lies and evasions. Then posting a pic he apparently thinks is fabulous, but that horrifies everyone else from the blatantly obvious synthol/PMMA/"I just weekly site inject 20 mls of AAS at 50mg/ml in there!" abuse. Always moving the goal posts ('You don't post pics either!' *multiple pics posted* 'You don't look nearly as good as me and you will have to take my word for it!'). Making up ridiculous stories and when confronted with them denying he ever said it -- even when he is literally quoted as doing so.
Either he is a much better troll than I give him credit for, or he is deep into Cswol levels of delusion and impending mental breakdown/suicide. I'm actually feeling sorry for him now and will try to take it easy on him.
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#1 a shitty body, for taking drugs as long as you have and even competing? lol..
#2 zero social skills
#3 no friends
#4 no significant other.. I dont' care if you're gay or straight, you're a bitter old man who people cannot stand to be around
#5 no life, you're online 24-7
#6 a piss-poor job.. you're a 50yr old employee with a poor attitude.. 50yrs old and an attidue like yours, I could understand If you owned your own business, but you don't.. you're am employee with no social skills.... absolute fucking loser.
1. how many 49 year olds look like me?
2. im, a teacher /trainer in a large industry
3. not many, just a select few.
4. 18 year relationship
5. Im almost 50, i dont go clubbing anymore, apart from that i do fine.
6.I have a well paid job that doesnt take up all my time.
Now lets see how you fare
1.6 gms of gear to look like shit
2.drug dealer
3. real friends? not many, just people who want some drugs from you
4. 5 year relationship with a child who likely wont see much of you when you are jailed again when you finally snap and pull a gun on someone else.
5. I wouldnt want your life, regardless of what it is, i would have to be you.
6,. cant get gainful employment due to being an ex-stick up man so deals drugs instead.
Yep, must be great to be you.
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12 weeks of sust
one or two shots per week depending on some other factor
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If I could do it again, 250 test a week and 1/2 an abomb pre workout.
Run this for a couple of months to get to my natural limits without being shutdown for a long time.
and then not run another cycle again until I hit 35 and went on TRT.
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Move this thread to the G&O and/or start deleting worthless posts.....this could have been a useful thread :-\
Anyways, the best advice for a first-time juicer is to think in terms of months & years, not weeks. Start small, 250-500 test, and stay with that for a few months. If you're impatient, take an oral for the first couple weeks until the test starts taking effect.
After a few months you'll see what a little bit of juice can do for you. If need be, up the dose of test or maybe throw in some deca/eq/tren.
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Move this thread to the G&O and/or start deleting worthless posts.....this could have been a useful thread :-\
Anyways, the best advice for a first-time juicer is to think in terms of months & years, not weeks. Start small, 250-500 test, and stay with that for a few months. If you're impatient, take an oral for the first couple weeks until the test starts taking effect.
After a few months you'll see what a little bit of juice can do for you. If need be, up the dose of test or maybe throw in some deca/eq/tren.
fuck bro, im finding after 20 years what a little bit of juice can do for you.
i wish i had known 20 years ago what i know now. i probably would have better physique, and used a lot less gear. i actually dont mind ESF i think hes an alright guy i just like winding him up cause he gets so fucking mad. lol but in part too my posts are serious about just not needing that much gear. its simply not necessary.
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Errr.....if you afraid of sides maybe you shouldnt be using steroids.
By the way, before you get yourself in too deep. ::)
(http://s14.postimg.org/ksyp7ubz5/was.jpg)
To be fair I don't think that is no one on the low doses he now advocates ?
That pic is a couple of years old (maybe) and he was on a decent cycle there .
He is also no stranger to higher amounts for long periods (juicing fairly heavy near on 20 years).
He recommended a cycle for summer he was currently running (at the time) to me of
700mg each of prop, tren a ,dros p and npp per week along with orals of stan and var and generic r-hgh around when that pic was first shown.
Sure it's not 6 grams (which has been taken well out of context what he actually said) a week but it's over three and far from the lower doses now mentioned.
I also believe he has carried a lot more muscle on his frame in that 20 odd years so that would come back to
more food the type of training he was doing at the time and more "support" .
He has a dense look that that comes from many years of training and fairly heavy use comparing it to the low doses you and he are advocating.
I'm pretty sure he will admit his current look would not of been possible without the many years of heavy use that proceeded the now lower doses, (he has typed that on here before.)
Now the above is in no means disrespecting him or you , No One knows I respect him very highly on all levels but some clarity is needed here.
Yours and his physiques are hugely impressive and show years of dedication and sacrifice and cant be brought from just out of a bottle.
I tend to agree with you and him for first timers but a lot of ESF says is true (not just on this subject) so I don't know why you continue to troll
him ?
He has never claimed to be an NPC or top rated amateur but that doesn't mean what he says is not knowledgeable and/or true.
His PED knowledge is up there and this is fact.
Duchaine was years ahead of everyone else in terms of PED/AAS use and how to apply it yet even when he competed he didnt look like much ,
still didn't mean what he said wasn't true.
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^Hi ESF
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To be fair I don't think that is no one on the low doses he now advocates ?
That pic is a couple of years old (maybe) and he was on a decent cycle there .
He is also no stranger to higher amounts for long periods (juicing fairly heavy near on 20 years).
He recommended a cycle for summer he was currently running (at the time) to me of
700mg each of prop, tren a ,dros p and npp per week along with orals of stan and var and generic r-hgh around when that pic was first shown.
Sure it's not 6 grams (which has been taken well out of context what he actually said) a week but it's over three and far from the lower doses now mentioned.
I also believe he has carried a lot more muscle on his frame in that 20 odd years so that would come back to
more food the type of training he was doing at the time and more "support" .
He has a dense look that that comes from many years of training and fairly heavy use comparing it to the low doses you and he are advocating.
I'm pretty sure he will admit his current look would not of been possible without the many years of heavy use that proceeded the now lower doses, (he has typed that on here before.)
Now the above is in no means disrespecting him or you , No One knows I respect him very highly on all levels but some clarity is needed here.
Yours and his physiques are hugely impressive and show years of dedication and sacrifice and cant be brought from just out of a bottle.
I tend to agree with you and him for first timers but a lot of ESF says is true (not just on this subject) so I don't know why you continue to troll
him ?
He has never claimed to be an NPC or top rated amateur but that doesn't mean what he says is not knowledgeable and/or true.
His PED knowledge is up there and this is fact.
Duchaine was years ahead of everyone else in terms of PED/AAS use and how to apply it yet even when he competed he didnt look like much ,
still didn't mean what he said wasn't true.
I can only speak for myself but i use 250mgs test e a week to ten days year round and every 10 weeks I add in 200-300mgs of tren., and then off the tren for 8-10 weeks
I took a lot more last year 5 weeks out from a show on the advice of someone I thought new best (someone a bit like ESFitness TBH) and the high dosage did fuck all.
I will never go high dosage again as it doesn't make all that much difference to how i look for the better but it makes a difference to how I feel, 500mgs of test makes me bloat with water and look shit.
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hey will! good to see you around bro.
that pic was last year. abt 240ish. abt 2 weeks after the one I'll post below where I was 230. on both those pics I had been on nothing more than 40mg var Ed and a blend I run at 350mg e5d. actually this winter I ran 250mg e7/8d for 4 months. I keep lowering the doses. and keep holding good tissue.
the pic your thinking of I was 255lbs. I was in 2g of gear plus 5iu Ed in that. they were taken in the same place this the familiarity of it to you. I posted it below as well.
this is 230 on very low dose. I haven't gone over 750mg total in a very very long time. well over a year and a bit. you'd *think* by now I would have lost some tissue. hasn't happened. therefor I don't equate high dose> more growth. I equate time in, as in serious lifting, juicing and eating over several years > muscle growth.
in fact I feel i would look exactly the same in the pic below had I run 750mg a year for the past two decades rather than the heavier cycles of 2g. I don't think the heavy cycles created this tissue or else it would have gone by now.
cheers bro. glad to see you back man.
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hey will! good to see you around bro.
that pic was last year. abt 240ish. abt 2 weeks after the one I'll post below where I was 230. on both those pics I had been on nothing more than 40mg var Ed and a blend I run at 350mg e5d. actually this winter I ran 250mg e7/8d for 4 months. I keep lowering the doses. and keep holding good tissue.
the pic your thinking of I was 255lbs. I was in 2g of gear plus 5iu Ed in that. they were taken in the same place this the familiarity of it to you. I posted it below as well.
this is 230 on very low dose. I haven't gone over 750mg total in a very very long time. well over a year and a bit. you'd *think* by now I would have lost some tissue. hasn't happened. therefor I don't equate high dose> more growth. I equate time in, as in serious lifting, juicing and eating over several years > muscle growth.
in fact I feel i would look exactly the same in the pic below had I run 750mg a year for the past two decades rather than the heavier cycles of 2g. I don't think the heavy cycles created this tissue or else it would have gone by now.
cheers bro. glad to see you back man.
If you are destined to be a bodybuilding champion it will be obvious within a year or so using low dosages.
If you cant grow on low dosages its not going to happen on high either.
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If you are destined to be a bodybuilding champion it will be obvious within a year or so using low dosages.
If you cant grow on low dosages its not going to happen on high either.
What about the SSOP?
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What about the SSOP?
Urban myth, see ESFitness photographs.
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If you are destined to be a bodybuilding champion it will be obvious within a year or so using low dosages.
If you cant grow on low dosages its not going to happen on high either.
I don't think most people want to be "a bodybuilding champion" in the first place but I disagree with your statement entirely that if you don't make good progress with low doses over a year you can't grow by upping the dose/changing compounds etc as this is simply not true or physiologically accurate. It is far more complicated than what you suggest there.
It depends on many factors (in terms of how much you grow etc) but I have personally seen guys who won't grow much beyond a certain point taking say 1gram of test but as soon as they switch up compounds to say to something like tren etc even at lower doses they make significant progress and get past sticking points.
Bottom like is individuals react differently to different compounds at various doses and you just can't make sweeping generalizations like that etc. Key is to experiment and find out what does and does not work for you
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hey will! good to see you around bro.
that pic was last year. abt 240ish. abt 2 weeks after the one I'll post below where I was 230. on both those pics I had been on nothing more than 40mg var Ed and a blend I run at 350mg e5d. actually this winter I ran 250mg e7/8d for 4 months. I keep lowering the doses. and keep holding good tissue.
the pic your thinking of I was 255lbs. I was in 2g of gear plus 5iu Ed in that. they were taken in the same place this the familiarity of it to you. I posted it below as well.
this is 230 on very low dose. I haven't gone over 750mg total in a very very long time. well over a year and a bit. you'd *think* by now I would have lost some tissue. hasn't happened. therefor I don't equate high dose> more growth. I equate time in, as in serious lifting, juicing and eating over several years > muscle growth.
in fact I feel i would look exactly the same in the pic below had I run 750mg a year for the past two decades rather than the heavier cycles of 2g. I don't think the heavy cycles created this tissue or else it would have gone by now.
cheers bro. glad to see you back man.
thats my ideal look in the top pic
looking like a boss props 8)
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I don't think most people want to be "a bodybuilding champion" in the first place but I disagree with your statement entirely that if you don't make good progress with low doses over a year you can't grow by upping the dose/changing compounds etc as this is simply not true or physiologically accurate. It is far more complicated than what you suggest there.
It depends on many factors (in terms of how much you grow etc) but I have personally seen guys who won't grow much beyond a certain point taking say 1gram of test but as soon as they switch up compounds to say to something like tren etc even at lower doses they make significant progress and get past sticking points.
Bottom like is individuals react differently to different compounds at various doses and you just can't make sweeping generalizations like that etc. Key is to experiment and find out what does and does not work for you
Because you're an expert.
Yes, we should all listen to your advice Mr 6 weeks on steroids and up to 20% bodyfat
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Because you're an expert.
Yes, we should all listen to your advice Mr 6 weeks on steroids and up to 20% bodyfat
Yes because by your rational anyone's steroid advice is immaterial unless they look the part are 200lb + and have less than 6% BF?
Dan Duchaine didn't look the part, Lyle Mcdonald didn't either, neither do 90% of doctors that understand steroidology, what is your point?
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Yes because by your rational anyone's steroid advice is immaterial unless they look the part are 200lb + and have less than 6% BF?
Dan Duchaine didn't look the part, Lyle Mcdonald didn't either, neither do 90% of doctors that understand steroidology, what is your point?
My point, which is blatantly obvious to anyone with half a brain is that you look like shit and you know shit about steroids.
You couldnt even work out how to get needles even after I posted you two links.
You stumbled across this site on a drunken ramble on the internet, that is your total experience of training and bodybuilding.
Oh, and you are no great shakes on the Poker circuit either, I have made a few enquiries and sent your picture, nobody knows you. ;)
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My point, which is blatantly obvious to anyone with half a brain is that you look like shit and you know shit about steroids.
You couldnt even work out how to get needles even after I posted you two links.
You stumbled across this site on a drunken ramble on the internet, that is your total experience of training and bodybuilding.
Oh, and you are no great shakes on the Poker circuit either, I have made a few enquiries and sent your picture, nobody knows you. ;)
You have been warned about your trolling on this site, save it for the G&O.
So if you have nothing on topic or constructive to say lets agree not to carry on with this conversation.
Id rather listen to people like ES Fitness, No One and Onetimehard who actually know what the fuck they are talking about Mr "oh I take 250mg Test only" on the board and 2g via pm when I come shitty 8th place.
Yes I am aware about you trying to out me various poker forums, how is that working out for you? I think you got literally zero responses.
Why would you with a name no one knows and a picture that looks nothing like me? Carry on your stupidity amuses me. ;D
Anyway this is not the section for this so I will save it.
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Just to give you guys the heads up. Tomorrow when i get out of the hospital. Half these posts will be deleted and no name calling will be tolerated for now on.
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Yes because by your rational anyone's steroid advice is immaterial unless they look the part are 200lb + and have less than 6% BF?
Dan Duchaine didn't look the part, Lyle Mcdonald didn't either, neither do 90% of doctors that understand steroidology, what is your point?
neither does pat Arnold or bill Roberts.
you'll find that the majority of guys who are either pro's or look like pros (ie 260+ with sub 7%) are very very ignorant of how steroids work or how to take them.. they don't need to understand why they work, because everything works for them. you've got orville burke taking 7g test and 20 amps of primo per week and a whole vial of humatrope once a day and nothing more. lol... and you've got paul dillet to start the 'craze' of taking a whole bottle of serostim per day because I couldn't do the math to measure out how many iu's to take so he just took the whole thing... then after seeing that his heart/head/hands/feet didn't swell up 5x normal, everybody else did the same.
the guys with normal genetics.. or shitty genetics... have to work a lil harder to figure out the HOW's and WHY's of what works.
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Just to give you guys the heads up. Tomorrow when i get out of the hospital. Half these posts will be deleted and no name calling will be tolerated for now on.
why are you in the hispital
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hey will! good to see you around bro.
that pic was last year. abt 240ish. abt 2 weeks after the one I'll post below where I was 230. on both those pics I had been on nothing more than 40mg var Ed and a blend I run at 350mg e5d. actually this winter I ran 250mg e7/8d for 4 months. I keep lowering the doses. and keep holding good tissue.
the pic your thinking of I was 255lbs. I was in 2g of gear plus 5iu Ed in that. they were taken in the same place this the familiarity of it to you. I posted it below as well.
this is 230 on very low dose. I haven't gone over 750mg total in a very very long time. well over a year and a bit. you'd *think* by now I would have lost some tissue. hasn't happened. therefor I don't equate high dose> more growth. I equate time in, as in serious lifting, juicing and eating over several years > muscle growth.
in fact I feel i would look exactly the same in the pic below had I run 750mg a year for the past two decades rather than the heavier cycles of 2g. I don't think the heavy cycles created this tissue or else it would have gone by now.
cheers bro. glad to see you back man.
I stand corrected and as always you still look fantastic , great inspiration to everyone. :)
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why are you in the hispital
Just had a baby boy ;)
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Just had a baby boy ;)
Congrats!
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Just had a baby boy ;)
(http://www.arenaflowers.com/product_image/large/327-its_a_boy_balloon.jpg)
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Just had a baby boy ;)
Congratulations my man, how much he weigh & does he look like his dad? :)
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thanks everyone. third child, a boy, 6lb 14oz
I have 8 year old boy, 5 year girl and a new born boy ;)
I am loving life right now. 8) :) :)
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Too bad. I actually respected your request. It might have been a very good discussion.
Thank you bro, you are good dude ;)
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Just had a baby boy ;)
aaa congrats to you and wifey then. Now you can mid this board full time at nights when the baby wont sleep =D
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aaa congrats to you and wifey then. Now you can mid this board full time at nights when the baby wont sleep =D
YES SIR, I intend to. I want this place to be full of the top best info of all boards but at the same time I do not want to discourage the new guys because they are scared to be ridiculed or made fun of....
this board is for all levels, including the new guys that know very little, they are here to learn.
also to learn from the conservative user and the extreme user and make informed decision on their personal goals.
2014 is where all come to getbig steroid board for the best info ;)
stick around bro, you are a huge contributor to this board :)
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"The most biggest mistake most make is trying to gain weight when you are %15 body fat"
- This, my biggest effect ever was changing from a perma-bulker mindset. Now chicks look at me, before it was just little (r) dudes...
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YES SIR, I intend to. I want this place to be full of the top best info of all boards but at the same time I do not want to discourage the new guys because they are scared to be ridiculed or made fun of....
this board is for all levels, including the new guys that know very little, they are here to learn.
also to learn from the conservative user and the extreme user and make informed decision on their personal goals.
2014 is where all come to getbig steroid board for the best info ;)
stick around bro, you are a huge contributor to this board :)
excellent post
thanks will post more here to, havent trained or juiced in 6months because of my injury but starting again soon so i will follow the board more closely then
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"The most biggest mistake most make is trying to gain weight when you are %15 body fat"
- This, my biggest effect ever was changing from a perma-bulker mindset. Now chicks look at me, before it was just little (r) dudes...
X2 ....although thankfully I smartened up before starting gear. Still, I think back to the time I spent as a chubby natty and I just shake my head
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Simple Simon, No One, and anyone else that would like to chime in. I'm going to start my first cycle in a few weeks. I'm 40 years old, 6'3.5" 235lbs and 8-9% bf. My training and diet are on point. I'm looking to add some lean body mass, but NOT look bloofy and bloated. I'm leaning towards starting with 250mgs(125mgs/.5ml on M/Th) a week of Test E for at least the next 6-8 months and see where it takes me. I don't want to have to use anti-aromatase for bloat using higher doses. I "might" add an anabolic down the road like NPP, EQ, or Anavar. What do you think? Good or bad idea?
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would you bloat on 500mg test a week if diet and training is good?
With your large frame you need more IMO. I would do 500mg test as base plus with bursts of tren a,npp,oral winstrol,anavar.
When I say I would do, I mean if I was you...I use way more lol :D
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would you bloat on 500mg test a week if diet and training is good?
With your large frame you need more IMO. I would do 500mg test as base plus with bursts of tren a,npp,oral winstrol,anavar.
When I say I would do, I mean if I was you...I use way more lol :D
Its his first course Ro, no need to start throwing Tren in.
Millennium man, I would start on 250mgs test e a week, no need to split it either.
See how you go with that.
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Forgot its his first cycle. Still would do 500mg test if he dont bloat on it.
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Forgot its his first cycle. Still would do 500mg test if he dont bloat on it.
BigRo is spot on.
This whole bloat bullshit is a myth for 95% of people.
And even if you do get it you can easily control with Arimidex or AI.
Also this first cycle should always be just 500mg test is bollox.
I would go 250 Test E, 100 NNP or Deca EOD + 50mg Dbol, classic cycle. Up the test to 500 if you get deca dick etc.
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Simple Simon, No One, and anyone else that would like to chime in. I'm going to start my first cycle in a few weeks. I'm 40 years old, 6'3.5" 235lbs and 8-9% bf. My training and diet are on point. I'm looking to add some lean body mass, but NOT look bloofy and bloated. I'm leaning towards starting with 250mgs(125mgs/.5ml on M/Th) a week of Test E for at least the next 6-8 months and see where it takes me. I don't want to have to use anti-aromatase for bloat using higher doses. I "might" add an anabolic down the road like NPP, EQ, or Anavar. What do you think? Good or bad idea?
At 235 and 8%, why would you even need AAS with such elite genetics? ::)
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If only taking only testosterone, would finasteride be able to fully block out the side-effects of accelerated hairloss, body hair growth, facial hair etc?
Also, when off, would the body's natural production of testosterone be permanently decreased from whatever the minimum was before?
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If only taking only testosterone, would finasteride be able to fully block out the side-effects of accelerated hairloss, body hair growth, facial hair etc?
Also, when off, would the body's natural production of testosterone be permanently decreased from whatever the minimum was before?
in theory, yes
and,
yes.
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At 235 and 8%, why would you even need AAS with such elite genetics? ::)
Why does anyone use gear, bro? ::)
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would you bloat on 500mg test a week if diet and training is good?
With your large frame you need more IMO. I would do 500mg test as base plus with bursts of tren a,npp,oral winstrol,anavar.
When I say I would do, I mean if I was you...I use way more lol :D
Does it really matter what size you are before you begin? A guy weighing 175lbs would need less than someone weighing 200lbs even though they produce the same amount of test?
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Does it really matter what size you are before you begin? A guy weighing 175lbs would need less than someone weighing 200lbs even though they produce the same amount of test?
androgen receptors.
some have more, some have less... doesn't matter if you start at 175 or 255. 175 guy could possibly have many more AR than the guy that's 255, yet have lower levels of natural test/gh/igf1 (which would make sense... body compensating for lower test by 'upregulating' AR.... in theory)
the goal is to saturate those receptors.
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If only taking only testosterone, would finasteride be able to fully block out the side-effects of accelerated hairloss, body hair growth, facial hair etc?
Also, when off, would the body's natural production of testosterone be permanently decreased from whatever the minimum was before?
I think bodyhair and facial hair I don't think will be affected they will grow faster if anything but hairloss yes but finstaride must be in system for few months before test and doesn't fully work for long time
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it takes more muscle to make a tall guy with a big frame look full than a short arse.
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Cool. I'll start with 250mgs of Test E once a week for 6-12 months like Galeniko recommends. Should be nice.... ;)
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Cool. I'll start with 250mgs of Test E once a week for 6-12 months like Galeniko recommends. Should be nice.... ;)
lol... that'll last about 2 months... maybe 4. then you'll be wanting to either add more stuff or double your dose.
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lol... that'll last about 2 months... maybe 4. then you'll be wanting to either add more stuff or double your dose.
Why do you say that? ???
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Why do you say that? ???
because you'll do your first shot and stay awake most that night from the influx of androgens.. wake up in the am expecting to feel tired from lack of sleep, but you'll feel just fine.
next day you'll start your first day as a 'steroid using bodybuilder' and have great workouts just from the psychological 'boost' in knowing you have androgens in your system.
first couple weeks you'll feel what a 'real' pump feels like and so on... this will go on for a couple months, all the while you'll be waiting for any of the 'side effects' you hear about, but they won't come and you'll think 'what's the big deal?'... you'll make gains in LBM and strength, your sex drive, 'ambition' and assertiveness will increase, and your bodyfat will decrease... but then you'll get used to it and you won't feel any different and you'll be curious "if I don't have anything by good results from 250/wk, why not use 500mg/wk? or why not add some deca to get some synergy going? I can afford it.. it's cheaper than supplements at GNC".
you'll find out 'the world isn't really flat' and big dosages dont' give the horrible side effects most say they will.
just remember bodybuilding, even for steroid using bbers, is 80% diet. the better you eat, the better you look.
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Why do you say that? ???
I'll give 2 analogies.....
1. A person that says II'll just smoke one joint on the weekends will very quickly start smoking more frequently and add other drugs.
2. Ever here a new motorcycle rider say I'll just start on a ninja 250 because it's a starter biker? With in 2 months they sell it or trade it in for a bigger bike. Should start on a 500 cc bike at least.
Ironically the bike analogy is the doses were talking about lol. You start at 250 but many will upgrade to 500mgs.
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I'll give 2 analogies.....
1. A person that says II'll just smoke one joint on the weekends will very quickly start smoking more frequently and add other drugs.
2. Ever here a new motorcycle rider say I'll just start on a ninja 250 because it's a starter biker? With in 2 months they sell it or trade it in for a bigger bike. Should start on a 500 cc bike at least.
Ironically the bike analogy is the doses were talking about lol. You start at 250 but many will upgrade to 500mgs.
I'm a hayabusa man, myself. lol
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because you'll do your first shot and stay awake most that night from the influx of androgens.. wake up in the am expecting to feel tired from lack of sleep, but you'll feel just fine.
next day you'll start your first day as a 'steroid using bodybuilder' and have great workouts just from the psychological 'boost' in knowing you have androgens in your system.
first couple weeks you'll feel what a 'real' pump feels like and so on... this will go on for a couple months, all the while you'll be waiting for any of the 'side effects' you hear about, but they won't come and you'll think 'what's the big deal?'... you'll make gains in LBM and strength, your sex drive, 'ambition' and assertiveness will increase, and your bodyfat will decrease... but then you'll get used to it and you won't feel any different and you'll be curious "if I don't have anything by good results from 250/wk, why not use 500mg/wk? or why not add some deca to get some synergy going? I can afford it.. it's cheaper than supplements at GNC".
you'll find out 'the world isn't really flat' and big dosages dont' give the horrible side effects most say they will.
just remember bodybuilding, even for steroid using bbers, is 80% diet. the better you eat, the better you look.
Ok. I see what your saying. But, that's further down the road. At 40, I'm really not looking to put on 25-30lbs like most of the younger guys. I do 60 minutes of cardio on a treadmill every morning to stay lean and my diet is 95% clean. Gaining a little size while staying lean and mean is MOST important to me.
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I'll give 2 analogies.....
1. A person that says II'll just smoke one joint on the weekends will very quickly start smoking more frequently and add other drugs.
2. Ever here a new motorcycle rider say I'll just start on a ninja 250 because it's a starter biker? With in 2 months they sell it or trade it in for a bigger bike. Should start on a 500 cc bike at least.
Ironically the bike analogy is the doses were talking about lol. You start at 250 but many will upgrade to 500mgs.
I'm not ruling out bumping it up later, but that's a ways off. I'm going to approach it in phases and try my best to stay disciplined with my doses. First, I have to see how I respond. I'm going to hold off for 6 months before trying to add anything. I think the key is just staying on reasonable doses for longer periods and not going off.
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lol... that'll last about 2 months... maybe 4. then you'll be wanting to either add more stuff or double your dose.
and it all ends where you end up like Phil Heath taking 2gms to cruise and looking like you are off.
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because you'll do your first shot and stay awake most that night from the influx of androgens.. wake up in the am expecting to feel tired from lack of sleep, but you'll feel just fine.
next day you'll start your first day as a 'steroid using bodybuilder' and have great workouts just from the psychological 'boost' in knowing you have androgens in your system.
first couple weeks you'll feel what a 'real' pump feels like and so on... this will go on for a couple months, all the while you'll be waiting for any of the 'side effects' you hear about, but they won't come and you'll think 'what's the big deal?'... you'll make gains in LBM and strength, your sex drive, 'ambition' and assertiveness will increase, and your bodyfat will decrease... but then you'll get used to it and you won't feel any different and you'll be curious "if I don't have anything by good results from 250/wk, why not use 500mg/wk? or why not add some deca to get some synergy going? I can afford it.. it's cheaper than supplements at GNC".
you'll find out 'the world isn't really flat' and big dosages dont' give the horrible side effects most say they will.
just remember bodybuilding, even for steroid using bbers, is 80% diet. the better you eat, the better you look.
This has been 100% my experience of it so far 8 weeks into my first cycle, spot on analysis from ESFitness as usual.
Only thing I would is yeah there are almost no physical sides at all but quite a few behavioral ones and you shouldn't underestimate those cos most people think purely in terms of physical side effects like acne, hairloss etc.
For example test makes my appetite go through the roof and makes me feel so good all the time all I wanna do is party all the time and fuck bitches and that's good but not good as well if you get what I am saying. Harder to control impulses and urges like.
Also I get very short tempered quickly and you have to adjust a bit to that but nothing like people exaggerate roid users to have like "roid rage" and shit.
Like if some dude gets into a road race with me at a traffic light thinking he's being funny I am gonna win every single time where as before when I was natty I would just be like go ahead you go first I don't care etc.
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because you'll do your first shot and stay awake most that night from the influx of androgens.. wake up in the am expecting to feel tired from lack of sleep, but you'll feel just fine.
next day you'll start your first day as a 'steroid using bodybuilder' and have great workouts just from the psychological 'boost' in knowing you have androgens in your system.
first couple weeks you'll feel what a 'real' pump feels like and so on... this will go on for a couple months, all the while you'll be waiting for any of the 'side effects' you hear about, but they won't come and you'll think 'what's the big deal?'... you'll make gains in LBM and strength, your sex drive, 'ambition' and assertiveness will increase, and your bodyfat will decrease... but then you'll get used to it and you won't feel any different and you'll be curious "if I don't have anything by good results from 250/wk, why not use 500mg/wk? or why not add some deca to get some synergy going? I can afford it.. it's cheaper than supplements at GNC".
you'll find out 'the world isn't really flat' and big dosages dont' give the horrible side effects most say they will.
just remember bodybuilding, even for steroid using bbers, is 80% diet. the better you eat, the better you look.
spot on!!!!!
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This has been 100% my experience of it so far 8 weeks into my first cycle, spot on analysis from ESFitness as usual.
Only thing I would is yeah there are almost no physical sides at all but quite a few behavioral ones and you shouldn't underestimate those cos most people think purely in terms of physical side effects like acne, hairloss etc.
For example test makes my appetite go through the roof and makes me feel so good all the time all I wanna do is party all the time and fuck bitches and that's good but not good as well if you get what I am saying. Harder to control impulses and urges like.
Also I get very short tempered quickly and you have to adjust a bit to that but nothing like people exaggerate roid users to have like "roid rage" and shit.
Like if some dude gets into a road race with me at a traffic light thinking he's being funny I am gonna win every single time where as before when I was natty I would just be like go ahead you go first I don't care etc.
that stuff goes away. in a year you'll wonder whatever happened to that 'chip on your shoulder' stuff, and why you don't have it anymore.
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This has been 100% my experience of it so far 8 weeks into my first cycle, spot on analysis from ESFitness as usual.
Only thing I would is yeah there are almost no physical sides at all but quite a few behavioral ones and you shouldn't underestimate those cos most people think purely in terms of physical side effects like acne, hairloss etc.
For example test makes my appetite go through the roof and makes me feel so good all the time all I wanna do is party all the time and fuck bitches and that's good but not good as well if you get what I am saying. Harder to control impulses and urges like.
Also I get very short tempered quickly and you have to adjust a bit to that but nothing like people exaggerate roid users to have like "roid rage" and shit.
Like if some dude gets into a road race with me at a traffic light thinking he's being funny I am gonna win every single time where as before when I was natty I would just be like go ahead you go first I don't care etc.
How much are you using Junior, if you don't mind me asking?
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Why do you say that? ???
You might get the itch to bump it up but you can take a little test a long way.
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How much are you using Junior, if you don't mind me asking?
500mg test, sometimes I will go up to 750mg depending on feel.
8 weeks in absolutely no side in terms of physical sides, no hairloss, no acne, balls haven't shrunk etc (like I was so anally worried and obessed about this shit before I started I actually has test in my draw for like 6 months before I pinned) ;D
Only sides are:
Increased appetite (really need to control that shit)
Mild irritability (like I hate people procrastinating) and have less patience and want everything done quickly.
Insomnia (was always an insomniac anyway)
Massive increased libido (like this sounds good and it is great) but its getting bit annoying now too!
Strength way up.
Obviously muscles and sick pumps.
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spot on!!!!!
MB, did you start at 250mgs or 500mgs/wk? What were the results?
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and it all ends where you end up like Phil Heath taking 2gms to cruise and looking like you are off.
Phil Heath never looks like he is off, ever. You are talking 250 at 5.9 single digits at his shittiest off-season ever, that is still fucken huge.
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500mg test, sometimes I will go up to 750mg depending on feel.
8 weeks in absolutely no side in terms of physical sides, no hairloss, no acne, balls haven't shrunk etc (like I was so anally worried and obessed about this shit before I started I actually has test in my draw for like 6 months before I pinned) ;D
Only sides are:
Increased appetite (really need to control that shit)
Mild irritability (like I hate people procrastinating) and have less patience and want everything done quickly.
Insomnia (was always an insomniac anyway)
Massive increased libido (like this sounds good and it is great) but its getting bit annoying now too!
Strength way up.
Obviously muscles and sick pumps.
How much weight have you gained?
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Phil Heath never looks like he is off, ever. You are talking 250 at 5.9 single digits at his shittiest off-season ever, that is still fucken huge.
At that level, there can't be ANY off time. "Whatever it takes" mindset to be top dog, Mr Olympia...
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How much weight have you gained?
23lb
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Providing all products are properly dosed(which isnt likely)week1-8 40 mg dbol,500mg.deca. week9-20 500mg.test E,500mg.EQ week21-29 250mg test prop.,350mg.tren.ace..,500mgEQ.,350mg.mast.prop
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For the record, I couldnt give a flying fuck what esfitness takes himself to look as bad as he does, its the advice he dispenses to others, especially threads like this regarding a first ever course.
Do you realise that could cause some serious sides to a first time user?
I use 250mgs test a week, if I go to 500 I bloat and smooth over and any more than that generally feel unwell.
You also have advised in another post/thread, rather than drop your dose because of sides to take additional compounds to alleviate them????
Did it ever occur to you "sides" might be your bodies way of telling you its too much?
Just because you are a steroid "cum bucket" and they dont work on you dont presume everyone else is your genetic equal.
You must be very small. 250 mg. Just isnt enough to support much more than normal amount of muscle.Maybe for your first cycle for a few weeks it might get you adding some weight(mostly water)but not much muscle more than ordinary car salesman.With statements your making you cant be 175lbs.at 5'10 and 12%bf.prove me wrong.
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actually, no bozo. im a 235 pound 6% male who dwarfs you. i look like a god compared to the fucking disaster you are. as of 4 weeks ago for the summer i am using 1ml of summit winstrol every other day, and a 350 mg shot of tren e/mast e/ and e every 5 days. lol 2-3 times. bitch please.
the REASON i tell other to not use the cycles you adivse isnt because im worried about anyone looking better than me, as theres always someone better than me somewhere, but because its not needed. at all. WHAT THE FUCK DOES A FIRST TIME USER NEED 2G OF GEAR FOR YOU FUCKING CLOWN? lol my god your DENSE. like DUMB. jesus.
no experience w higher doses eh? i dont know many guys who have run 2g of tren ace a week alone. i have. know why i dont 'recommend' stupidly high doses? because they are not necessary. dont talk about things you have no clue about. it only makes you look more stupid and ignorant that you already come across as being.
how you ever looked in the mirror and asked yourself why you look like shit? like have you ever wondered why the fuck dont you look good despite the shit you use?
ever think that maybe, just MAYBE your body cant utilise properly the shit your pumping yourself full of? ever think that maybe more isnt better, that being smart is better?-and no, im not going to tell you how you could be doing it better, cause your a know it all who id be wasting my words on- of course not, you wouldnt think that maybe theres something else different you could be doing. because your not smart. your a clown who thinks the be all end all is in the needle, and how many ml he can jam in his ass.
and thats why you look like shit, and so will anyone else whos unfortunate enough to listen to your stupidity
and ps dont call me a piece of shit. thats not very nice.
Allow me to take this time to honor the greatest BB to walk the planet 235@6%on about 1500mg./wk..about he size of flex wheeler when he turned pro.on 1500mg./wk WOW! Speechless.,but not that gullable
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23lb
Not bad, bro. How long do you plan on staying on?
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Providing all products are properly dosed(which isnt likely)week1-8 40 mg dbol,500mg.deca. week9-20 500mg.test E,500mg.EQ week21-29 250mg test prop.,350mg.tren.ace..,500mgEQ.,350mg.mast.prop
Interesting. What's your reasoning for a rookie starting with the classic Deca/Dbol stack and not Test like so many others recommend? Just trying to learn.
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You must be very small. 250 mg. Just isnt enough to support much more than normal amount of muscle.Maybe for your first cycle for a few weeks it might get you adding some weight(mostly water)but not much muscle more than ordinary car salesman.With statements your making you cant be 175lbs.at 5'10 and 12%bf.prove me wrong.
I can maintain 225 at 5'10 @10% BF.
I have posted more than enough pictures to verify it.
You might say I'm lying, who gives a fuck.
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Interesting. What's your reasoning for a rookie starting with the classic Deca/Dbol stack and not Test like so many others recommend? Just trying to learn.
I just like the fast action of an oral to start to see positive results fast .I think primo,halo,winstrol,and most cases anavar,is a waste for a beginer.
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I c. maintain 225 at 5'10 @10% BF.
I have posted more than enough pictures to verify it.
You might say I'm lying, who gives a fuck.
Damn i am truely a priviledged person,yet another freak on this board 225@10% with 250mg.test. Thats pretty much natural.
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I can maintain 225 at 5'10 @10% BF.
I have posted more than enough pictures to verify it.
You might say I'm lying, who gives a fuck.
ut you have trained a loooong timwe, its different with guys that balloon up in a shot timw
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lols at Phil Heath never looking like he's off and at 5.9 bodyfat year round
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lols at Phil Heath never looking like he's off and at 5.9 bodyfat year round
the reason people think that is because he is mr. Olympia and their brain is programmed to picture a 300lb monster but reality is if you see a gym rat weighing 250 single digits 5. 9, that is huge and Phil never goes under these number, ever, even at his worse.
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thought you meant 5.9 bodyfat year round not his height. Surely you see he looses muscle mass in off season though, its probably a healthier approach but gets him alot of flak.
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thought you meant 5.9 bodyfat year round not his height. Surely you see he looses muscle mass in off season though, its probably a healthier approach but gets him alot of flak.
Looks like he comes off altogether, if his latest look is cruising on 2gms then for that dosage he looks like shit.
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After 7 years of committed natural training the person should know their body, and how it reacts to calorie ranges, cardio, water retention, macro ratios, training frequency - high volume low volume etc.
This entire dynamic changes when you add in even 250mg test a week. For example: on 250mg test a week you would maintain way more muscle mass on a serious "cut" than you ever would naturally.
And this is why I advocate starting with low dose test only for(ever) the first year...Yes a year. At 25 if you run serious cycles until you are, let's say 30, you will never recover 100% production. Or at least you should just assume you won't because it is a side effect...You won't know until you get there. It could never recover after 1 8 week "prohormone" cycle..So why "cycle" in the first place..
If you are 15% bf or higher: 250mg test to cut down to 8%, should take 12 weeks conservatively. It will give you time to learn what test feels like, how your body reacts to it, mess around with calories etc., learn how to use syringes, sterile practices etc. The subtleties of using injectables.
Once at 8%: 500mg test 500mg EQ spend the next 20 weeks putting on 1lb of weight per week. Be patient and super consistent.
After this it is really up to the guy, do different stuff...
Some fun intermediate ones..
200 test 500 tren 75 anavar. Get insanely strong...
200 test 2 grams of EQ. Put on actual muscle and not bloof...Lee Haney pounded EQ by the gram. Very mild stuff.
1 gram of test with 4 weeks superdrol, then dry out and cut on 250 test, and var, depleted as fuck...the week before your beach vacation, start the anadrol and carbs to fill up, pussy pulling stuff here...
The info in this post sounds pretty good.
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Looks like he comes off altogether, if his latest look is cruising on 2gms then for that dosage he looks like shit.
you are delusional if you think he comes off sustaining 20 inch arms, that is still bigger then you have ever been, think about it
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thought you meant 5.9 bodyfat year round not his height. Surely you see he looses muscle mass in off season though, its probably a healthier approach but gets him alot of flak.
oh haha, :D
Ya he looses mass of course but he still is fucken huge though, we just think he is small because we are used to seeing him making the Olympia line up look weak but he still has 20 inch arms and 30 inch thigh at his all time worse off season ever, that is still big and he still smashes 4 plates on the bench at his worse off season so to say he looks like he does not take anything is outrageous.
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Not to get side tracked, I guess MOST will agree that a First Timer should start with 250-300mgs of Test E a week if you take the conservative route.
Others will say, 500-750mgs of Test E a week, 400-500mgs of NPP, EQ, or Tren a week and some Dbol for an aggressive approach.
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you are delusional if you think he comes off sustaining 20 inch arms, that is still bigger then you have ever been, think about it
Think about what coming off means to him, its likely 8 weeks before anythings cleared his system
I can come off and not look any different for 4 weeks.
Hes probably drug free for around 4-6 weeks a year even though he stops jabbing for three months.
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Think about what coming off means to him, its likely 8 weeks before anythings cleared his system
I can come off and not look any different for 4 weeks.
Hes probably drug free for around 4-6 weeks a year even though he stops jabbing for three months.
''he's probably'' speculation at best coming from someone who does not believe pros take in excess of 6 grams, nice
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''he's probably'' speculation at best coming from someone who does not believe pros take in excess of 6 grams, nice
OK, how long would it take Phil to drop size and smooth over if he just stopped taking anything.
just quit cold turkey, and took nothing at all.
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assuming 'lean bw' is sub 9-10%
person A carries 270lbs of lbw at 5'9" and requires 2g aas to maintain weight/size
person B carries 290lbs of lbw at 5'11" and requires 3g aaas to maintain weight/size
person c carries 240lbs of lbw at 5'7" and requires 4g aas to maintain weight/size
person D carries 270lbs lbw at 5'11" and requires 4g aas to maintain weight/size
ect. ect. ect... everybody is different and you won't know until you get there, how much androgens will be required to maintain (not grow) at a certain bodyweight. how many androgen molecules to fit inside those androgen receptors to keep that muscle from atrophying.
many factors (mainly genetic) including # of androgen receptors, amount of SHBG, or androgen/androgen receptor affinity...
same reason you have the 'consensus' of 6-8g/wk dosing with most pros/npc... you hit a wall with androgens, and no matter how much more you take, you just don't continue to grow. I recall Nasser telling me to my face as a 17yr old kid that he'd 'maxxed out' with steroids years before and the only thing that allowed him to continue to progress was growth hormone, and that's from a guy who was reportedly using 5g test/wk years after his retirement and up until his death.
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assuming 'lean bw' is sub 9-10%
person A carries 270lbs of lbw at 5'9" and requires 2g aas to maintain weight/size
person B carries 290lbs of lbw at 5'11" and requires 3g aaas to maintain weight/size
person c carries 240lbs of lbw at 5'7" and requires 4g aas to maintain weight/size
person D carries 270lbs lbw at 5'11" and requires 4g aas to maintain weight/size
ect. ect. ect... everybody is different and you won't know until you get there, how much androgens will be required to maintain (not grow) at a certain bodyweight. how many androgen molecules to fit inside those androgen receptors to keep that muscle from atrophying.
many factors (mainly genetic) including # of androgen receptors, amount of SHBG, or androgen/androgen receptor affinity...
same reason you have the 'consensus' of 6-8g/wk dosing with most pros/npc... you hit a wall with androgens, and no matter how much more you take, you just don't continue to grow. I recall Nasser telling me to my face as a 17yr old kid that he'd 'maxxed out' with steroids years before and the only thing that allowed him to continue to progress was growth hormone, and that's from a guy who was reportedly using 5g test/wk years after his retirement and up until his death.
Sounds believable, a top ranked IFBB pro sharing his dosage regime with a random spotty 17 year old kid.
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Sounds believable, a top ranked IFBB pro sharing his dosage regime with a random spotty 17 year old kid.
random spotty? yea.. that's me... first time I'd ever seen or spoken with Nasser as well... hell, I hung out in the gym parking lot next to his ford probe just to assault him with questions and autograph questions as well.
keep talking like you know me dude.
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OK, how long would it take Phil to drop size and smooth over if he just stopped taking anything.
just quit cold turkey, and took nothing at all.
My point is he is still big, he doesn't lose more then 20lb, it is an illusion that he looks small, his arms are still well over 20 inches and his thighs are still 30+ and he still crushes 4 plates like its nothing on the bench.
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My point is he is still big, he doesn't lose more then 20lb, it is an illusion that he looks small, his arms are still well over 20 inches and his thighs are still 30+ and he still crushes 4 plates like its nothing on the bench.
Your total failure to answer the question is noted.
Thanks anyway.
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random spotty? yea.. that's me... first time I'd ever seen or spoken with Nasser as well... hell, I hung out in the gym parking lot next to his ford probe just to assault him with questions and autograph questions as well.
keep talking like you know me dude.
Sorry, I didnt realise you were best friends with him.
Scratch the last post.
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LOL! You guys are too much!! ;D Can we just agree to disagree? ;)
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LOL! You guys are too much!! ;D Can we just agree to disagree? ;)
:D :D
well simple simon seems to think 20 inch arms and 30 inch thighs and repping with 4 plates is a big fat embarrassment if you have to take juice to accomplish this. :-\
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:D :D
well simple simon seems to think 20 inch arms and 30 inch thighs and repping with 4 plates is a big fat embarrassment if you have to take juice to accomplish this. :-\
I dont know why you are scared to answer the question, its very easy.
Phils stats from his website
STATS:
Arms: 23
Legs: 32
Calves: 20
Neck: 18.5
Waist: 29
- See more at: http://www.phillipheath.com/about/#sthash.rYcn37Mp.dpuf
How long do you think it would take Phil to drop down to 20 inch arms and 30 inch thighs if he quit all gear cold turkey.
Try again.
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I dont know why you are scared to answer the question, its very easy.
Phils stats from his websiteHow long do you think it would take Phil to drop down to 20 inch arms and 30 inch thighs if he quit all gear cold turkey.
Try again.
his arms are not 23 but whatever, maybe a month but it would not stop there.
but now you are changing your position here, your original stance was that he looks so small that he looks like he does not juice so basically he looks like a natural to you, which is real dumb considering he is still way bigger then you have ever been.
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lol at 29 inch waist ;D
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his arms are not 23 but whatever, maybe a month but it would not stop there.
but now you are changing your position here, your original stance was that he looks so small that he looks like he does not juice so basically he looks like a natural to you, which is real dumb considering he is still way bigger then you have ever been.
Lets see what i actually wrote
and it all ends where you end up like Phil Heath taking 2gms to cruise and looking like you are off.
Now what that means is if hes taking 2gms (Phil Heath, not me) he should look better than he currently does, because TBH he could stop taking gear altogether and still look like he does now in 6-8 weeks after coming off a blast.
When I stop taking 250mgs Test a week it takes me at least 4 weeks to notice a difference, and Phil is certainly ON much more than that when hes on.
Im not saying he looks shit or comparing myself to him, its disingenuous for you to accuse me of that.
Im saying Phil Heath looks like Phil Heath has stopped using and is clean.
Its not beyond the realms of believability that he does come off for a couple of months a year.
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Can you guys take your bullshit to a more appropriate place...look at the name of this thread.
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LOL at thinking anyone of these guys is clean ::)
. These guys bodies don't produce testosterone anymore, probably don't produce GH anymore. . Want an example of who really came clean I'd say look at levrone a couple years ago before he started the transformation youtube shit. . And he looked far smaller than phil ever did, with alot better genetics than phil ever had! phil is not clean lol.