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Getbig Misc Discussion Boards => Religious Debates & Threads => Topic started by: FREAKgeek on October 16, 2016, 11:56:43 AM
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Recently in the news, a mother left her 2 year old son in a locked car on a hot day to die of dehydration - one of thousands of daily worldwide tragedies that occur to innocent children.
I guess as a believer you do have to thank god for comparatively trivial matters in your own lives, cause he can be quite the indifferent bastard.
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Recently in the news, a mother left her 2 year old son in a locked car on a hot day to die of dehydration - one of thousands of daily worldwide tragedies that occur to innocent children.
I guess as a believer you do have to thank god for comparatively trivial matters in your own lives, cause he can be quite the indifferent bastard.
Mother was at fault...not God.
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Mother was at fault...not God.
Right. God never holds any accountability, he's perfect. He was too busy at the church bingo night and athletic competitions.
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Right. God never holds any accountability, he's perfect. He was too busy at the church bingo night and athletic competitions.
Is God responsible for your post?
Are you a believer in him today?
God wills that you not post in opposition of him.
God wills you become a believer in him.
Yet you posted in opposition of him.
Yet you are not a believer in him.
How is it possible that God wills one thing and the opposite results?
Where does God's accountability begin and end in your opinion?
What if someone else has a different opinion of God's accountability?
Which one of your opinions is correct as it pertains to God?
I could ask a hundred more questions.
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Why doesn't god just speak to all people, not just religious schizzies, who hear voices.
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Is God responsible for your post?
Are you a believer in him today?
God wills that you not post in opposition of him.
God wills you become a believer in him.
Yet you posted in opposition of him.
Yet you are not a believer in him.
How is it possible that God wills one thing and the opposite results?
Where does God's accountability begin and end in your opinion?
What if someone else has a different opinion of God's accountability?
Which one of your opinions is correct as it pertains to God?
I could ask a hundred more questions.
I purposely left myself out of this argument and used innocent children instead. You seem to have no issue with god answering trivial prayers on whim while people who truly need it (my example) are abandoned. That was my point. It makes no sense.
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I purposely left myself out of this argument and used innocent children instead. You seem to have no issue with god answering trivial prayers on whim while people who truly need it (my example) are abandoned. That was my point. It makes no sense.
No need to strawman me. I can defend my actual position and beliefs perfectly fine.
Your argument is your argument. It has little or nothing to do with my actual position.
If you want to argue my position then we can do that.
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Why doesn't god just speak to all people, not just religious schizzies, who hear voices.
He does. Through his word. Through his creation. Through Jesus Christ. Through the Holy Spirit. Through believers such as myself.
Many profess his reality and many suppress it. There's really only those two categories of folks.
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Many profess his reality and many suppress it. There's really only those two categories of folks.
Wrong! There is also the category that I'm in, who just don't believe in unsubstantiated nonsense. Why don't you trot out the old geezer, and let him speak in public, where I too can hear him.
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No need to strawman me. I can defend my actual position and beliefs perfectly fine.
Your argument is your argument. It has little or nothing to do with my actual position.
If you want to argue my position then we can do that.
This wasn't directed towards you, it was generalized.
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Why doesn't god just speak to all people, not just religious schizzies, who hear voices.
He secretly reveals himself to a few people, then puts the burden on them to tell the rest of the world what's up. The fabrication couldn't work your way, it would be exposed.
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Wrong! There is also the category that I'm in, who just don't believe in unsubstantiated nonsense. Why don't you trot out the old geezer, and let him speak in public, where I too can hear him.
There's those that profess him and those that suppress him, but all know he's there. That's really it.
Claims like "unsubstantiated nonsense", "sky daddies", etc...are just excuses to continue suppression...nothing more.
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This wasn't directed towards you, it was generalized.
Oh I see, my mistake. I apologize and thanks for the clarification.
In that instance I would agree that many believers do seek God for help with the trivialities of life and ignore the substance of life.
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He secretly reveals himself to a few people, then puts the burden on them to tell the rest of the world what's up. The fabrication couldn't work your way, it would be exposed.
God reveals himself to everyone in many ways. Through his word. Through his creation. Through Jesus Christ. Through the Holy Spirit. Through believers such as myself.
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God reveals himself to everyone in many ways. Through his word. Through his creation. Through Jesus Christ. Through the Holy Spirit. Through believers such as myself.
I don't agree. It is man that reveals god to other men, either through written or verbal testimony, similar to what you do. If what you said is true, there would be universal acceptance and no conflicting religions in this world. There would be independent discovery without man-made indoctrination. It is painfully apparent that it's a product of your upbringing and environment. Some people need a god because it psychologically copes with the hardships of life and gives certainty and order in their lives. That's why it stays in business.
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I don't agree. It is man that reveals god to other men, either through written or verbal testimony, similar to what you do. If what you said is true, there would be universal acceptance and no conflicting religions in this world. There would be independent discovery without man-made indoctrination. It is painfully apparent that it's a product of your upbringing and environment. Some people need a god because it psychologically copes with the hardships of life and gives certainty and order in their lives. That's why it stays in business.
Revelation of God by men is simply one way it's accomplished, but it's God's preferred method.
Since we've entered the Christian worldview then we're bound by its tenets which also includes the spiritual enemies of God. Religious perversion is absolutely dictated by the spiritual enemies of God....the demonic kingdom. Spiritual warfare is at play and therefore strategy is employed. Islam is essentially the Bizzaro-version of Chrstianity. It borrows directly from it and then fully perverts it....that is demonically motivated. Everyone universally knows that God exists, but demonic perversion coupled with individual suppression of God's truth accounts for a non-universal acceptance of God.
Plenty of examples of folks born and raised outside of Christians nations that had no biblical scripture or influence came to know God within those circumstances. Being born into a Christian nation is simply a blessing of God and I'm fortunate that I was. Doesn't make me better than someone that wasn't, just makes me better off. Although, some of the world's greatest Christian apologists/theologians came out of non-Christian homes, countries and circumstances.
Yes, some people need psychological help via God, but not all. Some genuinely seek God and are grieved in their souls because of their offenses against God. Those that come to know the Lord tend to cling to him fully for their total sustanence. Non-believers attempt to spin that circumstance as a negative. The notion of "I'm stronger than that....y'all are weak and need God to survive." It's simple ignorance on part of the non-believer, but fact of matter is that God is assembling his church...an army of the meek, humble and contrite.
Although, when claims of "only physically and mentally weak men believe in God" is raised before me I'm happy to challenge that individual to an arm wrestling match while I share the gospel with them and answer their objections. Haven't had any takers yet. :)
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Plenty of examples of folks born and raised outside of Christians nations that had no biblical scripture or influence came to know God within those circumstances.
Not without some missionary or human influence.
For example, the spread of Christianity to the Americas -when European civilization discovered and colonized them. You would have a strong argument if the indigenous tribes there independently discovered Christianity, but that's just simply not the case.
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Not without some missionary or human influence.
For example, the spread of Christianity to the Americas -when European civilization discovered and colonized them. You would have a strong argument if the indigenous tribes there independently discovered Christianity, but that's just simply not the case.
That isn't always the case. Missionary work is certainly important and commanded in scripture, but it isn't the only means by which folks from non-Christian countries/regions come to Christ. What folks don't often understand that there is also a drawing by God to believers. Many folks intrinsically recognize this divine drawing and act upon it of their own accord. Many folks that have never heard of Jesus Christ recognize God via his creation and give their lives to God in humble surrender without knowing Jesus' name yet they are made righteous by Christ like others that have heard his word. There are also special revelations of God to many in non-Christian countries/regions....another aspect of God's drawing. Bibles are shipped worldwide are far as they can possibly be shipped and have no missionary influence attached to them whatsoever. Yet through the very power of that word people come to Jesus Christ. These bibles are translated in almost every known language today so that the Great Commission can be fulfilled.
Yes, early America was founded upon Christian values, but the fact that the gospel is spread via missionary work through men doesn't negate my position or devalue my argument. It strengthens it and brings glory to God. Often times nonbelievers mistakenly interpret man's involvement in the spreading the word of God as somehow flawed, but that's simple ignorance.
The Great Commission is a command of Jesus. To spread the gospel to all areas of the world. Early on that was accomplished on via word-of-mouth, but as time has gone on the ability to communicate is growing rapidly and technology is certainly aiding the missionary cause and whole of the great commission.
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, but the fact that the gospel is spread via missionary work through men doesn't negate my position or devalue my argument.
Yes it does. Your god can't exist without human influence. You also can't justify a loving god that is supposedly involved in human affairs that lets innocent children die every day no fault of their own. That is pure contradiction.
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Yes it does. Your god can't exist without human influence. You also can't justify a loving god that is supposedly involved in human affairs that lets innocent children die every day no fault of their own. That is pure contradiction.
You'll need to explain how God can't exist without human influence. You'll need to justify how you know that.
Why is it unloving for children to die? Why is it a contradiction? What is a contradiction?
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You'll need to explain how God can't exist without human influence. You'll need to justify how you know that.
God's existence is entirely absent. This is easily verifiable via empirical observation. The burden of proof is on you because you claim otherwise. You simply saying it's self evident or quoting scripture is not proof. You have mentioned nothing that's substantial.
Here is a quote from Jesus Mathew 7:7
Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!
How does this apply to the 20, 000 children who starve to death and other atrocities that happen on a daily basis?You find nothing contradictory in this?
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God's existence is entirely absent. This is easily verifiable via empirical observation. The burden of proof is on you because you claim otherwise. You simply saying it's self evident or quoting scripture is not proof. You have mentioned nothing that's substantial.
Here is a quote from Jesus Mathew 7:7
Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!
How does this apply to the 20, 000 children who starve to death and other atrocities that happen on a daily basis?You find nothing contradictory in this?
Yet I've experienced God so that claim is instantly refuted.
What proof am I required to provide? These are your assertions that I'm responding too LOL and I know you're avoiding...done these dances for years.
That said, you'll need to explain how God can't exist without human influence. You'll need to justify how you know that.
Why is it unloving for children to die? Why is it a contradiction? What is a contradiction?
Further, quoting scripture for which you have no foundation to interpret or discern is meaningless. It's a red herring to avoid answering questions.
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It's OK if you can't answer my questions. Don't mirror them back at me in futility, that's weak.
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It's OK if you can't answer my questions. Don't mirror them back at me in futility, that's weak.
LOL, really? All I do is answer questions....all the time.....for years......but when I ask a few questions for clarification or to further discussion most run for the hills. If this is your M.O. then tell me how the view is.
Now, if you're able to dialogue I'll still need to understand more about the following:
You'll need to explain how God can't exist without human influence. The simple assertion that "you say so" or "it's common sense" isn't sufficient.
You'll need to justify how you know that. Now, I'm assuming you're an atheist and given that you have no genuine experience with God so you're speaking from a place of absolute ignorance.
Why is it unloving for children to die? Saying that it's unloving doesn't provide any justification. It's pure subjectivity. Do you have more than your opinion to base this conclusion on?
Why is it a contradiction? Which elements of your statements make up the contradiction? God's love and children's death? God's existence and children's suffering?
What is a contradiction? Do you mean the logical impossibility of the contrary? Do you mean something else?
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You'll need to explain how God can't exist without human influence. The simple assertion that "you say so" or "it's common sense" isn't sufficient.
You'll need to justify how you know that. Now, I'm assuming you're an atheist and given that you have no genuine experience with God so you're speaking from a place of absolute ignorance.
If you want a proof that god doesn't exist it's not possible. See, I do answer questions unlike yourself. You claim to have a relationship with god, like a diplomat, I don't know why you can't do the same. It should be easy
However, you can argue the justification for one. Prove to me that Russell's teapot doesn't orbit the sun. You can't then it must exist.
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If you want a proof that god doesn't exist it's not possible. See, I do answer questions unlike yourself. You claim to have a relationship with god, like a diplomat, I don't know why you can't do the same. It should be easy
However, you can argue the justification for one. Prove to me that Russell's teapot doesn't orbit the sun. You can't then it must exist.
Stop saying I don't answer questions....you'll lose that argument very quickly. I have years and years and thousand and thousands of posts in defense of my faith. You already know this though.
I don't need a formal proof from you as it pertains to how God doesn't exist. I simply need to understand your rationale....your justification for claims. Is it "Russell's teapot"?
Remember FREAKgeek, atheism neither holds the patent/copyright on asking questions nor has it cornered the market on asking questions. Nothing wrong with me asking questions of you to understand your position better. And constantly going to the well of "those with the positive claim only have the burden of proof". That simply isn't the case.
In basic philosophy the burden of proof is required for both positive(affirmative) and negative claims.
"[insert concept] is true." is an example of a positive(affirmative claim)
"[insert concept] is not true." is an example of a negative claim.
Both require support.
The idea that only affirmative claims require proof is fallacious. It's a notion that has run rampant in arguments between atheists and theists and it isn't correct.
You basically stated one positive and one negative claim:
"It is true that nothing exists before birth and after death" (positive claim because concept of "nothing" isn't necessarily automatic a negation....the concept of nothing is often treated as something)
"God is not true." (negative claim because of the inclusion of "no God")
My claims require evidence and so do yours. I've provided evidence many times. It's up to the objector to determine whether or not they will follow said evidence.
I fully admit this can be disputed endlessly, but I can't prevent that either.
You've made some assertions so tell me more about why it is you know that's the case so I can understand your position.
No, you haven't answered my questions.
You're asking about a spin on the problem of evil. I've addressed this questions dozens and dozens of times. I'll find my previous responses for you and repost them here.
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Remember what I stated earlier as you began to enter the Christian worldview and present your criticism:
Since we've entered the Christian worldview we're bound by its tenets...
The unbeliever often presents God as the source of the problem of evil. "God can't be loving and let children die at the same time....that's a contradiction".
A statement or situation is a contradiction when it it logically impossible that the contrary be true.
What unbelievers often remove from the Christian worldview are the following concepts:
Their sin (offenses against God).
Their accountability for their sin.
The effects of sin on each of us and the world.
Our divine responsibility as governors of God's creation.
Our responsibility in the failings within that creation.
That said, here's one of many similar responses:
The God of this world is divine and infinite and transcends it and the universe that contains it. To enter into infinity with God means to exit this life in death. Sin has brought about death and decay upon the world and the free will given to men to engage in whatever acts of evil they choose gives way to an incalculable list of potential threats.
God entrusted the whole of creation to humanity and we wonder why humanity has made such a mess of things. God deemed his creation good and created man without sin. Man chose to defy that relationship with God and thereby corrupt the goodness God established and incur his wrath. Begs the question: given we know the potential for evil and outright engagement of evil within ourselves why we continue to allow it? We have every God given resource at our fingertips to prevent all sorts of atrocities, but we don’t eradicate such horrible things. We hide behind politics and rhetoric and do nothing…..or we casually blame God…..shameful.
How is it you know he ignores the pain and suffering of millions? He abhors it. The problem of evil is resolved through Jesus Christ.
The reality is, it’s God’s good creation which is the platform for resolving the problem of evil. Jesus left eternity and entered his finite creation as the incarnate Son of God who came to collect his church – those folks that reject sin and accept his standards and desire to be with him. He didn’t preprogram our choices into us, but yet he still knows the outcome….omniscience can’t be helped….it just is. “But God’s also all powerful. Couldn’t he have created a better world? Living in this existence while facing the problem of evil now isn’t just.” How so? Would you rather he create us as automatons with a fully scripted existence that negates our choices? God wants folks to come unto him that truly want to be with him. It’s our choice to accept or reject him that provides the purest pathway to eliminating evil. Notice also that this creation we exist in today was deemed “good” not “perfect”. The new creation is coming once the church - that has willfully chosen Christ - has been collected. Jesus Christ overcame our sin on Calvary’s cross and it’s up to us to make a choice to align ourselves with him or not based on what he did for us.
Our autonomy ends when we enter eternity. You’re a finite creation with finite choices to freely make in this finite existence, but those choices are still subject to infinite ramifications based upon his infinite terms (because God is infinite in nature). The finite existence we live in is merely staging for what is yet to come and what we choose to do now determines the outcome of our eternal existence. The realm of eternity – the infinite – is the final setting in which justice will be dealt out based upon our free choices in the finite. Again, we are autonomous in the finite (our realm), but not in the infinite (God’s realm). Yet, when each of us exits this life the problem of evil is one step closer to achieving full resolution because the problem of evil is reconciled individually (despite the fact we typically only acknowledge it collectively). It’s individuals that freely choose to assemble together to form the body of Christ and it’s individuals that freely choose to reject Christ. In this life we’re meant to go through the fire, but that fire is cleansing if you’re aligned with Christ.
As I stated above, he created man free from sin, but with the ability to choose to engage in sin. Man chose to defy God and in doing so incurred his judgment.
Everyone is born with the proclivity to sin, but not born with sin or immediate condemnation to hell. How do we know this? Children.
When I read about King David’s child with Bathsheba passing away and David suggesting that as a believer he would he see his child again in God’s kingdom it affirmed for me the innocence of children and others with disabilities that prevent them from making an honest choice about sin and Christ in their lives. They don’t need salvation because being saved by grace through faith in Christ means we are saved from the wrath/judgment of God. The innocents need not fear God’s wrath for they are without blame or need for judgment.
“Jesus called a little child to him and put the child among them. Then he said, ‘I tell you the truth, unless you turn from your sins and become like little children, you will never get into the Kingdom of Heaven. So anyone who becomes as humble as this little child is the greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven.’”
Christ also indicated how severely those that cause the children (the little ones) to fall into sin would be judged. The children are lead into sin and out of innocence.
As believers in Christ we are saved by grace through faith and thereby justified and deemed righteous….like the innocents who are inherently righteous we become like the them through Christ.
Christ’s act of salvation on the cross was very extreme, but in essence what he did was simply sweeten the deal for us…..not for him, for us…..everything is about us. Again, as believers we acknowledge and accept blame for our sins. Jesus Christ left the divine and came as a man on earth as the perfect sacrifice for us. The act on Calvary’s cross is about love….love for us. He took upon himself all the pain that we deserve and in one mighty act forever bridged the gap between the finite and infinite if only we make the choice to accept him. Life is in the blood and because of the perfect, blameless, sinless shed blood on the cross that sin debt was extinguished permanently. It’s then up to us to again choose to accept or reject this act of love.
Sin has a powerful impact upon our lives. It’s an infection of sorts that spread from first man to current man. God’s law is based upon his righteous, divine nature; yet, he allows his creation to exist in a state where the potential for sin is there. As we choose to engage in sin it creates a divide between us and God. Yet, we aren’t forced to sin….we make the choice. Still he already knows that man in his state of finite autonomy will opt for sin…that we have a “sinful nature”. He also knows that man is capable of choosing righteousness instead. If we exist in that state of potential sin yet choose God’s righteousness and allow him to work in us to overcome our sin the gulf between our unrighteousness and his righteousness is bridged. Giving folks the option for both ends of the spectrum and everything in between makes our decision for God pure because we seek righteousness. That’s why Jesus Christ came.
As it pertains to evidence for God we can consider the following:
We have historical proof of Jesus' life and ministry, archeological proof of biblical people and places, manuscript proof of biblical reliability via the field of textual criticism, multiple independent attestations that agree closely on the facts of Jesus Christ's life/death/resurrection, proof via logic (God as source of logic, TAG argument, Kalam Cosmological argument), extra-biblical accounts that validate the historicity of Jesus Christ's ministry/death/resurrection, the ministry and death of Jesus' apostles after his ascension, the fulfillment of biblical prophecy spanning hundreds of years between initial prophecy and fulfillment, the intelligent design of the universe, the utter improbability of the intricate structure of the universe without a designer and the testimonial evidence of millions and millions of Christ's followers today. This isn't an exhaustive list either.
The problem with evidence is that our presuppositions and subjectivity often determine our judgment of evidence even prior to reviewing said evidence (that is if it's ever reviewed). Further, people that want to understand and know God have a personal desire to actively pursue God....this is key!! Atheists don't pursue God according to his terms as outlined in scripture and generally have no desire to understand and know God at all. Atheists object to God based upon a lack of scientific evidence and testing (a logical fallacy referred to as a "category mistake") or they put forth demands that certain criteria must be met within the evidence that is simply unreasonable. That or they simply reject anything and everything "God" and refuse to explore and follow the evidence. Those that truly desire to know the reality of God pursue him.
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Both require support.
The idea that only affirmative claims require proof is fallacious. It's a notion that has run rampant in arguments between atheists and theists and it isn't correct.
You have categorized claims too simplistically. There are more things to consider other than positive or negative, notably the outrageous.
Bertrand Russell perfectly applies to your reasoning:
Many orthodox people speak as though it were the business of sceptics to disprove received dogmas rather than of dogmatists to prove them. This is, of course, a mistake. If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time.
My claims require evidence and so do yours. I've provided evidence many times.
This is where we disagree. Scripture and testimonials aren't valid evidence. Every other religion that has ever existed has that, and both you and I dismiss it with no issues.
And there is certainly no scientific evidence. To paraphrase Neil deGrasse Tyson, all efforts to reconcile religion with science throughout humanity, has failed. The greatest minds have tried!
I'll address contradiction later.
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Is God responsible for your post?
Are you a believer in him today?
God wills that you not post in opposition of him.
God wills you become a believer in him.
Yet you posted in opposition of him.
Yet you are not a believer in him.
How is it possible that God wills one thing and the opposite results?
Where does God's accountability begin and end in your opinion?
What if someone else has a different opinion of God's accountability?
Which one of your opinions is correct as it pertains to God?
I could ask a hundred more questions.
This is actually a solid refute to your questions:
http://godisimaginary.com/i1.htm
I've yet to hear a solid rebuttal from any theist as to why a believer is let down after reading Matthew 7:7. And yes, I can quote scripture too in proper context:
Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!
This is what I was eluding to regarding contradiction, either Jesus is a liar or he doesn't exist, because it's painfully apparent that believers don't have their prayers answered. It does not say on occasion or on whim either.
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The unbeliever often presents God as the source of the problem of evil.
Human suffering without one's fault is evil. And why won't Matthew 7:7 deliver one from it?
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Human suffering without one's fault is evil. And why won't Matthew 7:7 deliver one from it?
Provided the one at fault is God, correct? No human responsibility over creation despite the divine governance of creation given to humanity by God. No responsibility for sins and its effects. Did you read what I posted above?
God doesn't hear the prayers of the unrighteous. Further those who are believers in Christ seek God's will in their lives, within prayer, for others, etc.....One isolated verse or a pericope of verses does not always define the entirety of a concept; hence scripture harmonizes across books, authors, etc..... Nothing will be impossible for folks provided their motivations are to FIRST seek the will of God for their lives. If you are aligned with God's will and seek that above your own in prayer that makes an enormous distinction. Simple problem with unbelievers approaching prayer is that they seek their own desires and not the will of God. The idea often being that if their request goes without answer that prayer doesn't work. It's short-sighted and void of understanding of God and scripture, but unbelievers simply can't discern.
I glossed your article and it does nothing to debunk anything regarding prayer.....sorry. It's just another bit of subjectivity that aligns with your subjectivity.
Hey BS....good read!
Dave’s comments presuppose that God has predetermined a path for our lives according to his will. Dave is correct.
As Dave concludes: “Either your prayer is against God's will and therefore won't happen because you can't change his mind, or your prayer is according to God's will but doesn't make a difference because God's will would have been carried out anyway. Prayer is pointless. It's a waste of time.”
Appears to be sewn up pretty neatly.
Dave also suggests that God’s perfection has predetermined the best possible outcome for our lives. Dave is correct again.
As Dave suggests our prayers are merely recommendations that are only valid if they agree with God’s preset choices because anything less than God’s preset choice is a step in the wrong direction.
Ultimately Dave blames God’s perfection and omniscience because he feels it invalidates the act of prayer rendering our prayers meaningless.
God is omniscient and has a will for each of our lives and chronologically that foreknowledge precedes our future choices, but the world he created takes into account our future choices and allows for his will and our will to be accomplished within the same perfect creation. Now certainly only God’s will for our lives and our will for our lives can only be fulfilled simultaneously if they agree, but still God’s will for our lives takes second fiddle to our own will for our lives if they don’t agree.
God desires that we desire his will for our lives, but he honors our choice to defy his predetermined will. In essence, just because God is omniscient and has a predetermined will for our lives doesn’t mean his will is pre-executed. We can easily defy his will for our lives. For example, Jesus Christ desires that we all come to accept him as our Lord and Savior, but I’m gonna guess that the atheists and agnostics on Getbig aren’t going to gives their lives to Christ again today. That said, God’s predetermined will for our lives still exists, but has been defied. As Dave stated, God’s mind isn’t going to change either, but that doesn’t mean his will for our lives is going to come to fruition ….we can prevent it.
So why pray?
The main reason I can think of to pray is that Jesus Christ told us to pray and later the apostle Paul affirmed that we should pray (without ceasing) according to that which was revealed to him by Jesus Christ.
A second reason to consider praying is that while Jesus Christ came as the incarnate Son of God on earth and assumed a limited human form that he prayed to God the Father for guidance and strength as an example of how we should seek him in our own lives. If prayer was appropriate for the Son of God then it’s appropriate for me…..God set the standard.
Another reason to pray is because believers are engaged in a personal relationship with the Almighty and relationships are two-way streets. How many successful relationships involve only one party engaged in communication with the other? None that I’ve ever known of. This is our opportunity as believers to consistently remain connected with our Lord and Savior and experience the tangible presence of the Holy Spirit (not the only way to feel the Holy Spirit's presence, but a powerful way).
A third reason to consider is that the act of prayer is not for God’s edification, it’s for ours (God doesn't need our prayers). Prayer is a means by which we as believers can strengthen our faith. Prayer is our opportunity to draw closer to God, to feel his presence via the Holy Spirit, to worship and to seek his will. As believers our will for our lives should always match God’s will for our lives. Almost every day I pray and I ask God that he reveal himself through me to others and that his will be done in my life. I pray that I am able to recognize his fingerprints and guidance along the way to ensure that he will is being accomplished and that I’m not a hindrance. As Dave already suggested, God’s will for our lives is perfect and anything less than that is a step in wrong direction.
A fourth reason to consider prayer is that despite the fact that God doesn’t change his mind about his will for our lives this doesn’t necessitate his inability to intervene supernaturally to right the course of our lives while remaining in complete harmony with his preset will for our lives…..he is God afterall. How does he accomplish this? Wish I could tell you LOL.
There are more reasons to pray that I'm not mentioning, but this is a first blush explanation.
God "changing his mind" suggests that he gained new information that he didn't have previously and negates and contradicts his omniscience. God "changing his mind" based on Moses' intercession via prayer wasn't about God's edification, it was about Moses and the Israelites edification and the growing of their faith.
Moses came to the conscious decision to request that God show mercy on the Israelites.....exactly the type of attributes God wanted his beloved creation to display amongst themselves and to others. God's character is that of divine mercy, grace, love and justice. God repeatedly showed mercy towards his chosen people that screwed up over and over and over again....this instance is no different. God’s mind wasn’t changed, he was going to show mercy regardless.
The situation offered an opportunity for Moses (and the Israelites) to first grow their faith and exhibit mercy. Prayer is not needed by an infinite God, but the result of our prayers can help God’s finite creation develop their faith and learn to align themselves with the divine will of an infinite God. This is a “hindsight is 20/20” situation for Moses in which after the fact he can look back and realize, “God you were going to show mercy all along, but you wanted me to seize the opportunity and step up and request mercy be shown.” And that example would then permeate through the Israelites led by Moses.
I’ve come to similar revelations in my own life concerning growing my faith and later recognizing the will of God for my life….it changed me.
Here's another, similar viewpoint for you to consider as it pertains to Matthew 7 (and other similar) passages:
https://gotquestions.org/ask-and-you-shall-receive.html (https://gotquestions.org/ask-and-you-shall-receive.html)
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You have categorized claims too simplistically. There are more things to consider other than positive or negative, notably the outrageous.
Bertrand Russell perfectly applies to your reasoning:
Many orthodox people speak as though it were the business of sceptics to disprove received dogmas rather than of dogmatists to prove them. This is, of course, a mistake. If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time.
This is where we disagree. Scripture and testimonials aren't valid evidence. Every other religion that has ever existed has that, and both you and I dismiss it with no issues.
And there is certainly no scientific evidence. To paraphrase Neil deGrasse Tyson, all efforts to reconcile religion with science throughout humanity, has failed. The greatest minds have tried!
I'll address contradiction later.
I'll respond when I have more time later on.
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God doesn't hear the prayers of the unrighteous. Further those who are believers in Christ seek God's will in their lives, within prayer, for others, etc.....One isolated verse or a pericope of verses does not always define the entirety of a concept; hence scripture harmonizes across books, authors, etc..... Nothing will be impossible for folks provided their motivations are to FIRST seek the will of God for their lives. If you are aligned with God's will and seek that above your own in prayer that makes an enormous distinction. Simple problem with unbelievers approaching prayer is that they seek their own desires and not the will of God. The idea often being that if their request goes without answer that prayer doesn't work. It's short-sighted and void of understanding of God and scripture, but unbelievers simply can't discern.
Would you say this at a eulogy for a dead child? A murdered or rape victim? Anyone in true need of help? They all must be unbelievers ? Do you realize how delusional and absurd this is?
"One isolated verse or a pericope of verses does not always define the entirety of a concept; hence scripture harmonizes across books, authors, etc....."
You're spinning the meaning of this passage to suit your argument. It means it's not true. Did it ever occur to you that one may become a skeptic because they actually took this seriously in the first place? Should I just take everything with a grain of salt and look at it ambiguously?
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Would you say this at a eulogy for a dead child? A murdered or rape victim? Anyone in true need of help? They all must be unbelievers ? Do you realize how delusional and absurd this is?
"One isolated verse or a pericope of verses does not always define the entirety of a concept; hence scripture harmonizes across books, authors, etc....."
You're spinning the meaning of this passage to suit your argument. It means it's not true. Did it ever occur to you that one may become a skeptic because they actually took this seriously in the first place? Should I just take everything with a grain of salt and look at it ambiguously?
You don't understand scripture. You have no relationship with Jesus Christ. You have no experience with God. You speak from a place of willful ignorance. I'm sorry if that is harsh.
1 Corinthians 2:14
14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. I exist in the truth of God so I have no need to spin anything. My motivation is for those that don't know the true, living God to come to know him in repentance and turn from their sins and escape his judgment.
Here's what I've experienced with believers and unbelievers concerning death, eulogies, etc....the grace of God:
I've seen my best friend deny God because of the loss of his grandmother (who served as his mother for most of his youth). I've seen families torn apart because of the loss of loved ones. I've seen men and women of God leave their faith behind when death comes in their lives. My grandmother lost my grandfather 21 years ago and to this day she talks about him and misses him dearly every single day and questions why God took him like he did.
I've also seen the best come out of folks in moments of utter despair.
I watched my sister tragically lose her fiance 4 years ago. Great guy....strong, fit, growing career and then one evening on a stair climber at the gym his heart stopped and he died almost instantly. It was later discovered he had an undiagnosed heart condition since birth (doctors believe) and the Lord took him home. My sister was obliterated, but she grew in her faith because of it....she actually drew closer to God in the process. Since that time she's undertaken a number of charitable events in his name and keeps contact with his family. She’s witnessed to members of my family and others and has become a strong, strong woman because of the loss. Just two weeks ago she announced her engagement to a new man in her life.....another terrific man. It's a blessing seeing all my sisters married to good men that love them and their families. My sister will always remember the man she lost tragically and we won't know exactly why the Lord called him home like he did, but I can say that he's now with his Lord and savior and his memory and my sister's testimony has touched so many over the last 4 years.
Another story (and I've shared this before) involves a coworker of my wife....awesome story!! My wife's coworker lost her baby granddaughter tragically in an accident caused by her son (the child's uncle). The child's mother was devastated as was her brother who was responsible for the accident, but in a moment of sheer grace and love the mother completely forgave her brother. While on their knees, within a private moment of utter grace and despair and forgiveness, my wife's coworker snapped a picture of the two of them on their knees in an embrace in the child's room. At the child's funeral the child's estranged biker father came with his entire biker gang with the intent of killing his brother in law because of the death of his daughter. At the funeral service the mother shared Christ with the crowd and the forgiveness and love she had for her brother. They showed a slide show of the life of the young child that was taken and the precious image capture by their mother (my wife’s coworker) on their knees in the child's room. That day the entire biker gang dedicated their lives to Christ and forgave the lost child’s uncle.
I recall a story I was told by an African missionary who had worked in various countries of Africa for many years. He and his wife were both wonderful servants of the church. One tragic day a notorious gang apprehended the missionary couple and proceeded to beat the missionary man half to death. They allowed him to live in order for him to watch the gang rape his wife and then beat her and murder her by firing squad. These men were eventually caught for their crimes, but the missionary man (filled with the love and grace of Christ Jesus) forgave the men (despite his loss) and evn lead some of to accept Christ as their savior turning their lives completely around.
Sometimes the evil we perceive in our lives, when put in the hands of God, can change lives in powerful positive ways we'd never expect.
We tend to focus on the darkness and negativity of each moment, but we rarely take the time to revisit the situation years later or chronicle the aftermath.....we miss the potential and the reality of so much goodness that often arises out of tragedy. I don’t enjoy being put to the fire, but I can assure you that Jesus Christ is best way through it! His grace, mercy and justice is simply unfathomable.
You seem like a decent, intelligent man as well. If you needed help I’d help you or your family. If was stranded and needed help I believe you'd help me or my family.
Apologetics does not turn a blind eye on anything. It adds the all important context, explains ideas, helps give theological guidance, but most importantly it gives the reason for having the hope we do in Christ.
It’s why I have 1 Peter 3:15 is under my avatar…..that’s the foundation of apologetics in scripture.
1 Peter 3:15
15 but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence;
I exist in the truth....the objective truth of God and have no reason whatsoever to twist. I share my faith and defend my faith so that others may come to relationship with Jesus Christ...you included.
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You don't understand scripture. You have no relationship with Jesus Christ. You have no experience with God.
One thing we can agree on, no harshness taken.
I've seen my best friend deny God because of the loss of his grandmother (who served as his mother for most of his youth). I've seen families torn apart because of the loss of loved ones. I've seen men and women of God leave their faith behind when death comes in their lives. My grandmother lost my grandfather 21 years ago and to this day she talks about him and misses him dearly every single day and questions why God took him like he did.
I've also seen the best come out of folks in moments of utter despair.
I watched my sister tragically lose her fiance 4 years ago. Great guy....strong, fit, growing career and then one evening on a stair climber at the gym his heart stopped and he died almost instantly. It was later discovered he had an undiagnosed heart condition since birth (doctors believe) and the Lord took him home. My sister was obliterated, but she grew in her faith because of it....she actually drew closer to God in the process. Since that time she's undertaken a number of charitable events in his name and keeps contact with his family. She’s witnessed to members of my family and others and has become a strong, strong woman because of the loss. Just two weeks ago she announced her engagement to a new man in her life.....another terrific man. It's a blessing seeing all my sisters married to good men that love them and their families. My sister will always remember the man she lost tragically and we won't know exactly why the Lord called him home like he did, but I can say that he's now with his Lord and savior and his memory and my sister's testimony has touched so many over the last 4 years.
Another story (and I've shared this before) involves a coworker of my wife....awesome story!! My wife's coworker lost her baby granddaughter tragically in an accident caused by her son (the child's uncle). The child's mother was devastated as was her brother who was responsible for the accident, but in a moment of sheer grace and love the mother completely forgave her brother. While on their knees, within a private moment of utter grace and despair and forgiveness, my wife's coworker snapped a picture of the two of them on their knees in an embrace in the child's room. At the child's funeral the child's estranged biker father came with his entire biker gang with the intent of killing his brother in law because of the death of his daughter. At the funeral service the mother shared Christ with the crowd and the forgiveness and love she had for her brother. They showed a slide show of the life of the young child that was taken and the precious image capture by their mother (my wife’s coworker) on their knees in the child's room. That day the entire biker gang dedicated their lives to Christ and forgave the lost child’s uncle.
I recall a story I was told by an African missionary who had worked in various countries of Africa for many years. He and his wife were both wonderful servants of the church. One tragic day a notorious gang apprehended the missionary couple and proceeded to beat the missionary man half to death. They allowed him to live in order for him to watch the gang rape his wife and then beat her and murder her by firing squad. These men were eventually caught for their crimes, but the missionary man (filled with the love and grace of Christ Jesus) forgave the men (despite his loss) and evn lead some of to accept Christ as their savior turning their lives completely around.
Sometimes the evil we perceive in our lives, when put in the hands of God, can change lives in powerful positive ways we'd never expect.
We tend to focus on the darkness and negativity of each moment, but we rarely take the time to revisit the situation years later or chronicle the aftermath.....we miss the potential and the reality of so much goodness that often arises out of tragedy. I don’t enjoy being put to the fire, but I can assure you that Jesus Christ is best way through it! His grace, mercy and justice is simply unfathomable.
You seem like a decent, intelligent man as well. If you needed help I’d help you or your family. If was stranded and needed help I believe you'd help me or my family.
Apologetics does not turn a blind eye on anything. It adds the all important context, explains ideas, helps give theological guidance, but most importantly it gives the reason for having the hope we do in Christ.
It’s why I have 1 Peter 3:15 is under my avatar…..that’s the foundation of apologetics in scripture.
1 Peter 3:15
15 but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence;
Oh the contradictions you quote...
Perhaps these terrible things happened to these people because "God doesn't hear the prayers of the unrighteous". Maybe it's all deserved! The granddaughter was clearly unrighteous!
But maybe "calling one home" via a heart attack is to be looked as a sign of endearment. Wow such grace.
And, why are these people all turning to god afterwards? He holds "No responsibility for sins and its effects"! Don't gravitate to him he holds no accountability!
I could go on but I'll stop. This is going to lead to a runaround and it will get nowhere.
Thanks for your persistence though, I've enjoyed this
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One thing we can agree on, no harshness taken.
Oh the contradictions you quote...
Perhaps these terrible things happened to these people because "God doesn't hear the prayers of the unrighteous". Maybe it's all deserved! The granddaughter was clearly unrighteous!
But maybe "calling one home" via a heart attack is to be looked as a sign of endearment. Wow such grace.
And, why are these people all turning to god afterwards? He holds "No responsibility for sins and its effects"! Don't gravitate to him he holds no accountability!I
I could go on but I'll stop. This is going to lead to a runaround and it will get nowhere.
Thanks for your persistence though, I've enjoyed this
I understand you think you're saying something here but sadly you simply don't get it.
I can't assist folks such as yourself.
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He does. Through his word. Through his creation. Through Jesus Christ. Through the Holy Spirit. Through believers such as myself.
Apparently his words aren't clear, his "creation" isn't signed since others are also claiming to have created it and some wonder if this "creation" was actually created. Jesus Christ isn't back yet, although I hear it's any time now. The Holy Spirit, supposedly dwelling inside Christians, is apparently not allowed to go out. And believers, such as you - and I hope you'll forgive the expression -can't explain shit: all you can do is say: "if you first believe by faith that my God exists, then I can point you to evidence that proves he does." Whoop-dee-fucking-do... if I believe by faith, what need is there for proof?
Why doesn't God just appear, directly, to everyone and say "Hey Homies, I'm YHWH. Listen up, I sent my homeboy to save you all and if ya'll don't listen, imma gonna fuck you up. YHWH OUT!" Why doesn't he, once and for all, prove he exists and demand our worship?
If he loves us as much as he claims, why not just say "we're good, guys... you fucked up, but dagnabbit I love you so much, that I can't stay mad. If any of you want to live eternally, in my city lined with golden pavers, let me know. If not, that's fine. Go in peace."
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Why doesn't God just appear, directly, to everyone and say "Hey Homies, I'm YHWH. Listen up, I sent my homeboy to save you all and if ya'll don't listen, imma gonna fuck you up. YHWH OUT!" Why doesn't he, once and for all, prove he exists and demand our worship?
I have thought about this good point as well. Apparently, god only reveals himself to cohort of privilege people and places the burden on them to convince everyone else, which is a recipe for fallacy, ie this is precisely what you would expect from a false religion. There is never anything easily straightforward, because it's not possible.
And if you look at the story of Jesus, there are plenty of human antagonists needed. He would've never been doubted , jailed, and crucified otherwise. His intentions were to never help these people. It was totally necessary.
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Apparently his words aren't clear, his "creation" isn't signed since others are also claiming to have created it and some wonder if this "creation" was actually created. Jesus Christ isn't back yet, although I hear it's any time now. The Holy Spirit, supposedly dwelling inside Christians, is apparently not allowed to go out. And believers, such as you - and I hope you'll forgive the expression -can't explain shit: all you can do is say: "if you first believe by faith that my God exists, then I can point you to evidence that proves he does." Whoop-dee-fucking-do... if I believe by faith, what need is there for proof?
Why doesn't God just appear, directly, to everyone and say "Hey Homies, I'm YHWH. Listen up, I sent my homeboy to save you all and if ya'll don't listen, imma gonna fuck you up. YHWH OUT!" Why doesn't he, once and for all, prove he exists and demand our worship?
If he loves us as much as he claims, why not just say "we're good, guys... you fucked up, but dagnabbit I love you so much, that I can't stay mad. If any of you want to live eternally, in my city lined with golden pavers, let me know. If not, that's fine. Go in peace."
Sorry avxo, I didn't read but I did see the red bolding. I'm just not interested in GB atheist opinions of faith, Christ, etc...anymore.
Essentially when I see a known atheist post on this board I'm probably going to ignore it completely unless it clearly requires moderation.
At one point Butterbean had invested a ton of time modding this board and genuinely, compassionately cared about the posters, but had to step away permanently. I took up the mantel as board mod after she asked me to and I've done it faithfully for many years now, but I've also reached my capacity for board atheist tolerance and I can no longer in good conscience entertain anymore atheist nonsense.
I have no one to take over the board as mod, but I can mod it once a month and everything will be fine. I'll be spending much more time in fellowship with other believers.
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Sorry avxo, I didn't read but I did see the red bolding. I'm just not interested in GB atheist opinions of faith, Christ, etc...anymore.
Essentially when I see a known atheist post on this board I'm probably going to ignore it completely unless it clearly requires moderation.
At one point Butterbean had invested a ton of time modding this board and genuinely, compassionately cared about the posters, but had to step away permanently. I took up the mantel as board mod after she asked me to and I've done it faithfully for many years now, but I've also reached my capacity for board atheist tolerance and I can no longer in good conscience entertain anymore atheist nonsense.
I have no one to take over the board as mod, but I can mod it once a month and everything will be fine. I'll be spending much more time in fellowship with other believers.
It's never easy to engage in religious debates/discussion, it wears people down, regardless of where they fall on the spectrum. No hard feelings, really. I enjoyed our discussions and I hope you benefited from them in some way. I wish you the best. Take care!
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It's never easy to engage in religious debates/discussion, it wears people down, regardless of where they fall on the spectrum. No hard feelings, really. I enjoyed our discussions and I hope you benefited from them in some way. I wish you the best. Take care!
Please understand I don't dislike you in anyway, but after I've given repeat answers to the same questions dozens and dozens and dozens of times for many years there comes at point in which I have to stop because clearly the answers I've given (although correct) are not the desired answers to the questions asked.
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Please understand I don't dislike you in anyway, but after I've given repeat answers to the same questions dozens and dozens and dozens of times for many years there comes at point in which I have to stop because clearly the answers I've given (although correct) are not the desired answers to the questions asked.
I know - I don't take offense in any way. I completely understand. In fact, I could post the same words and they'd be applicable to me as well.