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Getbig Female Info Boards => Figure, Bikini and Fitness Info and Discussions => Topic started by: KGM on April 15, 2006, 11:49:25 AM
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Hey guys,
There is a summary of this morning's pre-judging and call outs for you on Bodysport. Look out for Julie Childs!
http://bodysport.com/contests.html
There will be more real time coverage this evening at 6:30 EST.
Enjoy
Kevin
www.Bodysport.com
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Appreciate the coverage, but...
"While its not a lineup full of big names..."
...man, you guys are brutal.
Hope you're having fun at the show. :D
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FINAL RESULTS:
3rd - Amy Haddad
2nd - Heidi Fletcher
1st - Julie Childs
Congrats!
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Heidi places last at the arnold, gets killed in the routine round, signs with JM and finishes 2nd. HA. You have to love this industry.
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Oh please.....
Can I assume by Heidi Fletcher's second place she dramatically improved her routine? I saw her routine at the Arnold, and in the spirit of being nice I will say no more ::)
Congrats to Julie, very deserving winner.
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Has anyone seen any score sheets posted anywhere?
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Oh please.....
Can I assume by Heidi Fletcher's second place she dramatically improved her routine? I saw her routine at the Arnold, and in the spirit of being nice I will say no more ::)
I really enjoyed Heidi's routine a couple of seasons ago and considered her to be strong (read: 'pro-ready') in that category. I didn't watch much of anything in 2005, but would find it hard to believe that her routines would've weakened significantly in the past year or so.
It's entirely possible that she was injured at the Arnold or maybe she was just off her game there. Unlike some others may have done, she certainly didn't make any excuses for what many have described as a subpar 2-minute routine...she merely got healthy or got focused and nailed it in New York. She shouldn't be penalized in New York for what went wrong in Columbus.
Note to everyone: Until demonstrated otherwise, all performers should be given the benefit of the doubt. If you feel someone didn't deserve a particular placing, don't just say, 'Uh, she was bad and didn't deserve 2nd.' State why you feel someone else should've been placed in her (or his) spot.
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Tre, the reason I did not state specifically why I thought she should not have placed 2nd was because I was trying to be polite [seriously]. There is alot I could say.
I saw her routine at the Nationals, and at the Arnold. I understood she did the same routine. It is not being posted, but off the boards people have a lot to say about her routines.
Like I said, I am genuinely trying to be polite so I'll leave it at that.
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I would like to know how girls that placed in front of heidi at the arnold (which every girl placed WAY in front of in all rounds) all of a sudden did a 180 with them now being beat by her by a similar margin. If it was 8 months later, that is one thing. The arnold was 5-6 weeks ago. This stuff is SOOOOOOOOOOOO rigged, why people just don't accept that, I have no idea.
It's simple logic. The manion's get a % of all money won by their athletes. Heidi signs as an athlete, places in the money, to which manion takes his %. She is now qualified for the O, where she'll likely grab a 6th place finish, just enough for them to get some more money.
It should be pointed out that this is of NO fault of heidi's. She made the smart move by signing with JM. She just goes up on stage and does her thing. She has no part in the placings. Ill will shouldn't be cast on her, it's all on the judges and the overly obvious rigging that is done.
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I'm gonna go out on a limb here since I usually dont post and stay away from threads like this. I am not trying either praise or bash Heidi but I do have a few things to say.
We all know that fitness and figure competitions are not solely based on routine/physiques, as other things are taken into account.
I have competed with Heidi in the past at the regional level and saw her at Nationals in November, and regardless of whether she has signed with JM or not, I've noticed that throughout the years she has been like a sponge. What I mean is that she takes into account all the feedback that is given to her, goes back to the drawing board and comes in with great improvements at the next show. I am mostly impressed with changes to her physique. Her overall presentation is damn near flawless. I do think and also believe that her routines will only continue to improve. No doubt in my mind about that.
So...I'm sure if given the opportunity to sign in with JM or whatever other management company is out there in order to make some $$ in a "sport" where not many of us women do...shoooooot...come on now...wouldnt you do it? I know I would!!!
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I would love the see the scoresheets.
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Tre, the reason I did not state specifically why I thought she should not have placed 2nd was because I was trying to be polite [seriously]. There is alot I could say.
I saw her routine at the Nationals, and at the Arnold. I understood she did the same routine. It is not being posted, but off the boards people have a lot to say about her routines.
Like I said, I am genuinely trying to be polite so I'll leave it at that.
CQ - you have the respect of me and (I'd bet) most other people on this board, so I did not mean to make it sound as if I was calling you out. It was not my intent to put you on the spot or to embarrass you in any way, so I apologize if that's how I came across.
When I first saw Heidi a few years back, I thought she was the 'it' girl. I don't remember the show, but I do remember thinking, "Man, that girl got robbed - she should be a fitness pro right now!" If anything - and my memory is a bit foggy on this - it was her physique which had not yet matured back then.
That's my take on Heidi. I've met her exactly once and spoken with her for no more than 60 seconds, so there's no personal or professional bias on my part whatsoever.
If people are saying she screwed up in Columbus for whatever reason, I can accept that. But I can also accept that she corrected everything and was on top of her game by the time she got to New York.
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This stuff is SOOOOOOOOOOOO rigged, why people just don't accept that, I have no idea.
I've seen contests - specific placings, that is - which did seem (read: 'were') pre-determined, but it doesn't happen every show, despite what some would have you believe.
It's simple logic. The manion's get a % of all money won by their athletes. Heidi signs as an athlete, places in the money, to which manion takes his %. She is now qualified for the O, where she'll likely grab a 6th place finish, just enough for them to get some more money.
You are incorrect. The performer-athletes keep 100% of their contest winnings.
You're correct in stating that this so-called conspiracy is no fault of Heidi's, but on the financial claim, your 'simple logic' fails.
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Her overall presentation is damn near flawless.
Thank you so much for saying that - I know it means a lot coming from a fellow competitor.
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Rather than believe your account tre, I'll look at the facts of each case. Looking at a history of fitness and figure it is SO obvious that shows are rigged. Why you would deny this, I have no idea. Ok, I may be wrong on manion getting money from her win, but it is still in their best interest to see their girls win. How do you know they don't get a % of winnings? Does anyone have a copy of the contract they have to sign?
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(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h44/Biizarre/06nyprofit.gif)
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CQ - you have the respect of me and (I'd bet) most other people on this board, so I did not mean to make it sound as if I was calling you out. It was not my intent to put you on the spot or to embarrass you in any way, so I apologize if that's how I came across.
No problem at all Tre, I know you're cool and thanks.
Thank you Militiamen for the scoresheet.The routine round scoring is beyond laughable. A complete joke :-[
I have never been one for the conspiracy/fixed show theories...but this makes me wonder. There is no way any reasonable judge [and I have judged] could have scored those routines like that.
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OK.. I just got a report from a very well trusted source who has seen well over 6000 routines and was at this show and the Arnold. This is what was sent to me. Sorry about the typos etc..I just cut and pasted.
1st
The biggest prob was the placing of Mindi OBrien and Maria Allegro. Maria was called out first round and Mindi in the second. Somehow Mindi got called up to place in the first set of girls and Maria got moved back to middle of second without being compared to each other.
2nd
Heidi's routine
It is hard to believe that a group of non-druged adults all scored her 2nd straight across. Same Arnold routine not better not worse same.Not to to come across as harsh but she needs some time. It was middle of the pack well hell maybe upper middle but got straight across 2nd and was not better than Mindi no way and i mean nooooooooway!
3rd
Manion Theory. This is not even possible, if it was rigged why not conceal it better and make it close and as far as that goes why not Angie Semsch instead of Amy Haddad???? she is a Manion girl and no check and a Julie S 1st angie s 2nd and Heidi 3rd would look much better and get an all manion line-up.
SO WHAT HAPPENDED?????
New judges or math error (maybe the had curious george doing the math!)
Judges
There mostly non-seasond judges . Why this was the case I have no idea. This is a good show but the judges will be pulled thin this year with all the figure and fitness shows. Frank Seppe's
(sp?) 1st IFBB judged show (where is his expertise in
fitness??) Rich Gaspari and several others I did not recognize.
no Bev F, no Steve W no Tuman, no Rockell, no Sandy, no Carol S. How about having judges that have seen a fitness show before and not have to disccus with one another about the outcome.
Math
Just looked weird on the scores the callouts vs the placings????? sometimes with expert judges they will buck the callouts some, but as explained no EXPERTS here and A SEMSCH called out 1st solid but from there is was a mess Julie S callout like 4th or 5th in 2 piece then moved up to tie for first???
Mindi was called out in 2nd call outs Maria A callout in 2nd then they were switched ?????and on and on.....
I could go on for hours but just a weird night to say the least on this stuff but to wrap it up I'll with the biggest ripoffs and the biggest gifts:
BIGGEST RIPOFFS:
Katie Szep not getting best routine (or atleast top 3)
Angie Semsch not getting solid 1st in body (tied for 2nd and tied for 1st???)
Mindi O not getting 2nd in routine
Biggest gift:
Heidi 2nd finish in routine???????? no way a group of non-drinking adults could it this way. Her routine was not better or different, from the arnold and not better than Mindi, Katie s, Sandy grant, Angie s, or Elizabeth M. this was prolly the biggest gift of all time. I am not saying she is not talented, but that routine was just bad regardless of who did it.
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hehehe...Thanks alot Dina..excellent 'cut and paste' from you ;)
Very interesting assessment, and IMO completely accurate.
Like the post said..."one of the biggest gifts of all time" :-\
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lol CQ. I trust the person who sent me that. I was not there so I cannot comment, but the person felt very strongly about what happened to the athletes at this show and wanted to comment.
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The judges screwed up. They meant to put semesh 3rd and cut it to close. The new manion girl goes from straight last place scores, finishing 2x higher in points than the next place athlete at the arnold, to beating the entire field with a score half the amount of 3rd place. Shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii iiiiiiiiiiiiiit.
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Judges
There mostly non-seasoned judges . Why this was the case I have no idea. This is a good show but the judges will be pulled thin this year with all the figure and fitness shows. Frank Sepe's (sp?) 1st IFBB judged show (where is his expertise in
fitness??) Rich Gaspari and several others I did not recognize.
no Bev F, no Steve W no Tuman, no Rockell, no Sandy, no Carol S. How about having judges that have seen a fitness show before and not have to discuss with one another about the outcome.
That group is no more reliable than the ones who were present - they just have more experience jacking up the results. lol
I need to see a video of this routine of Heidi's that everyone hates so much.
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All I can say is that the ahssessment that Angie Semsch deserved 1st in regards to her physique sounds right to me. I have always been very impressed with the combo of muscularity and shape she brings to the stage.
People often discount the "Manion factor" by saying,"well, why didn't so-and-so place higher?" I think things can never be SO obvious as to have all the JM girls in the top spots. But the JM girls almost always seem to get the invite to compete in the Arnold (big stage), and one way or another will all qualify to compete at the Olympia by the end of the competitive season.
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That group is no more reliable than the ones who were present - they just have more experience jacking up the results. lol
I need to see a video of this routine of Heidi's that everyone hates so much.
Do you have access to a video of the nationals PPV Tre? It is on that. Then watch any routine of the other girls esp. Mindi O'Brien & Angela Semsch to get a good perspective. I rarely post negative things but this "judging" was simply such a joke I cannot shut up >:(
This is somewhat rude and I debated about posting it, but since I have paid thousands of dollars[literally] to attend and support shows I'll say it. Her routine has no place on the Olympia stage at all.The O should be for the best of the best. I mean no personal offence to her, she has a great physique and overall a very cute look, but it is just so unfair to many of the other girls. Plus, it turns off ticket buying fans, like myself, which are needed for the shows to prosper :-\
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Went with my buddy to the show...after attending about 20 shows at this point, here's my 2 cents:
Julie Childs deservedly won the show...she looked great and had a first rate routine. There is no question on this one.
Heidi Fletcher...huh???? Need not say more.
After a few years in the middle of the pack, Amy Hadadd has finally been noticed as a good, solid competitor. She is a very pretty girl and a good rep for the sport.
What happened to Angie Semsch...she was called out first in both rounds...has a solid routine and ends up 4th??...she deserved 2nd.
As for the rest of the pack...Sandy Grant got her due...she deserved the good callouts that she got. Amy Huber was fairly scored. Shannon Dey got screwed royally again, what do they have against this girl? Her routine was FLAWLESS, full of serious difficulty and got scored 2nd to last?? How did Sandra Wickam go from 6th in Sacremento last year to 16th? She was the only girl with abs, was in top notch condition and looked great on stage.
What are they looking for? The winner was just the right combo of muscular and athletic, 2nd place was chunky and 3rd place was thin and lean...what is the standard these days??
Til next time...
Fitfan
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Just wanted to clear up that JM gets 0% of any winnings. And also wanted to say that I think you can still go to Bodybuilding.com to see the online coverage of the show. They would still have the routine round up-so you can judge for yourself on who YOU think should place where in this subjective sport.
Now being a JM "girl" you have my permission to bash me like normal. Just please be gentle -I'm 6mos pregnant.
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Just wanted to clear up that JM gets 0% of any winnings. And also wanted to say that I think you can still go to Bodybuilding.com to see the online coverage of the show. They would still have the routine round up-so you can judge for yourself on who YOU think should place where in this subjective sport.
Now being a JM "girl" you have my permission to bash me like normal. Just please be gentle -I'm 6mos pregnant.
Yeah, be nice to Shannon, or you'll have to deal with me. >:(
:P
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I have read this thread with peaked interest, as I too attended the NY Pro and left with a WTF feeling. I tried to brush it off as subjectivity and the nature of the beast, but when I saw the routine scores, well...I think I threw up in my mouth a little. :o
As far as viewing the routines in this "subjective" sport, I would like to bring up the point that there are (and correct me if I am wrong) 6 cumpulsory moves that are to be included in the 45 second routines, and should be in their 2 minutes. Well, objectively speaking, how do you reward any competitors who:
1. Cannot "high kick" higher than 90 degrees.
2. Tap down on their straddle and L or Pike holds
3. Cannot perform a toe touch
4. Cannot complete one or both splits
5. Can barely squeak out a 1 arm push-up
I think that it is plain to see that some of these basic functions were not executed by many of the high placing competitors. People rest on the defense that the sport is subjective, and I do believe that each persons image of the best physique can vary, along with judgements on performance style in a routine. I will say with conviction though that cumpulsory strength and flexibility moves are cut and dry. It is quite obvious that although these judges may be proficient in bodybuilding, they obviously are not experienced enough to judge a fitness competition.
I would like to add that none of what occured is the fault of any competitors, and everyone is out to do their best in what I think is a great sport. It is just a big fat shame that any win should be clouded with such doubt, and for that I blame both the judges and promoters.
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I have read this thread with peaked interest, as I too attended the NY Pro and left with a WTF feeling. I tried to brush it off as subjectivity and the nature of the beast, but when I saw the routine scores, well...I think I threw up in my mouth a little. :o
As far as viewing the routines in this "subjective" sport, I would like to bring up the point that there are (and correct me if I am wrong) 6 cumpulsory moves that are to be included in the 45 second routines, and should be in their 2 minutes. Well, objectively speaking, how do you reward any competitors who:
1. Cannot "high kick" higher than 90 degrees.
2. Tap down on their straddle and L or Pike holds
3. Cannot perform a toe touch
4. Cannot complete one or both splits
5. Can barely squeak out a 1 arm push-up
I think that it is plain to see that some of these basic functions were not executed by many of the high placing competitors. People rest on the defense that the sport is subjective, and I do believe that each persons image of the best physique can vary, along with judgements on performance style in a routine. I will say with conviction though that cumpulsory strength and flexibility moves are cut and dry. It is quite obvious that although these judges may be proficient in bodybuilding, they obviously are not experienced enough to judge a fitness competition.
I would like to add that none of what occured is the fault of any competitors, and everyone is out to do their best in what I think is a great sport. It is just a big fat shame that any win should be clouded with such doubt, and for that I blame both the judges and promoters.
Excellent post!
This was the exact same things I was saying after the Arnold. It is actually amusing as I typed practically this exact same thing - "Cannot "high kick" higher than 90 degrees."
This sport is subjective in physique yes, but realistically speaking the routine round should be easier to score. If person A's high kicks get to their waist, and person B's kicks reach their nose - it is blatantly obvious that person B has superior high kicks. Same goes with any moves in the routine, as well as the routine in general.
Subjective can be more readily applied to figure, however in this case it wasn't 'subjectivity' it was simply horrendous judging. I have not spoken to one person who was at the show, watched the webcast, or is familar with fitness in general who disagrees.
Welcome to the board MrsQ, it is very obvious you are very knowledgable about fitness.Stick around ;)
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I wasn't there so can't speak on the show's results but has there ever been a show where someone didn't cry politics or it was BS? It seems this is the same debate that takes place after every show, replace abc competitor with xyz competitor and we're discussing the same thing.
At least one thing seems to be consistent this time, everyone agrees Julie deserved to win and congrats to her.
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Solid post, MrsQ, but one thing I've been saying for a long time is that there ought to be different judges for the physique and routine rounds.
On that point, the IFBB has made an effort to recruit more judges for the fitness routines, but the reality is that there just aren't enough fitness experts willing to volunteer their services.
It's a problem, but the federation is doing its part - they just can't find anyone willing to take on these duties other than those who are already in place. Maybe the current group of fitness pros will be able to be more active in judging once they begin to retire, but for now, we have to rely on the judges we've got.
Yes, they absolutely should be held accountable for their decisions, but we cannot expect a physique expert to be a fitness (routine) expert, too.
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I wasn't there so can't speak on the show's results but has there ever been a show where someone didn't cry politics or it was BS? It seems this is the same debate that takes place after every show, replace abc competitor with xyz competitor and we're discussing the same thing.
At least one thing seems to be consistent this time, everyone agrees Julie deserved to win and congrats to her.
I generally think this myself.
I've attended numerous pro shows, have followed fitness since it's inception [literally] and have been posting on boards for 5+ years. I have never posted anything negative, or ranted about scoring before...but in this case it was very bad.
And normally in this threads [discounting the hater patrol on the main board, talking about the girls board] it will go both ways. No one has come on the thread and said "no, she has a great routine". That speaks volumes.
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I would like to add that JM doesn't take any percentage of price money. I was not at the show so can't comment on the routines or anything else. Just would like to say congratulations to all the girls for the great job. I feel that for a long time it did not matter how much I improved my fitness routine people will still say something negative about it. I won because of being signed with J.M but never because I was the best athlete on that stage that night. All we can do is get better and prove people wrong... So anyway, Congratulations to all the fitness divas and see you all soon..
Besitos :-*
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Tre, do you have to constantly kiss manion's ass when the opportunity comes up? Just accept the face this stuff is rigged. We all know it and until recently we didn't have such obvious proof.
Adela, comparing you and some of these other girls, not even close. You've always had the talent. People may argue with your placing being 1st-2nd-3rd, but no argument to you being IN the top 3. This is a WHOLE different situation.
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Thanks for the welcome guys!
I would like to start by saying that despite my discontent at the scores, I have the utmost respect for all of the women who competed last Saturday. Each should be commended for their dedication and athleticism, and I truly don't want to sound like a typical basher who sits in the audience and plays arm-chair quarterback. All of the 17 women are superior athletes, and deserve their position as a professional competitors. Yes, this could turn in to another one of those sour grapes threads, but at this point it seems more to me a discussion on judging standards and inconsistencies. I understand your frustration agpro, as many people do tend to critique competitors too harshly and that must be hurtful after all of your hard work.
However...I do believe that the general complaint in this particular thread comes down to judging standards based on the competitors fundemental skill level, not the style or performance quality. As Tre said, (paraphrasing, forgive me) the IFBB has and must continue to put more fitness experts in its judging pool. Maybe they don't have enough, maybe they are asking the wrong people, who knows?
The bottom line is that it is not fair for the competitors who continually put out solid and unquestionably elite routines to be penalized due to the judges lack of experience. I dare to say, what is so terribly hard for a bodybuilding expert to figure out when it comes to cumpulsory skills. They could look on the NPC website and see the proper execution if they need some pointers ;D
Heck, it's not even fair for the athlete whos placement is shadowed with doubt. It is equally not fair for the faithful audience who pays to see a professional competition, and are met with such blatant poor judging. In the spirit of competition you will always have your opinions on the outcome, that can happen even in a basketball game. You will always hear grumblings from the crowd over some placements. However, usually the talk is over whether the top 5 should have been in a different order, not mishaps to this degree.
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There have been some great post on this subject!! Keep it up!
Anyone who follows fitness knows the routine scoring has been a problem for years. Unfortunately the IFBB gives the impression they do not care enough about the sport or its athletes to make improvements.
I love MrsQ's question from her last post, "what is so terribly hard for a bodybuilding expert to figure out when it comes to compulsory skills? They could look on the NPC website and see the proper execution if they need some pointers." The bottom line is the fans are becoming smarter and more educated and we want more consistant judging.
What more can anyone say or prove. Until a judge or IFBB official answers these issues directly (or change them), the fans and competitors will continue to leave fitness competitions with obvious debates. Think about it, bodybuilding has disagreements, #2 or #3 should have beat #1 or #2, but it is rare when everyone except the judges and a few of the competitors friends know a #10 should have beat a #1 in a round. This happens all the time in the fitness routine rounds. And fitness has 2 routine rounds, half of the competition! It only hurts fitness and the sport has lost some amazing talent over the years because of this major flaw. I believe fitness was becoming very popular a few years ago however I believe the obvious routine scoring mishaps stopped that growth in its tracks.
Please listen to the fans for once and make some changes.
Best regards,
Liz
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Adela and Isaac are correct in saying that everyone is always quick to "cry politics" and insist that someone should have beat someone else. I usually shake my head when I read that type of post and ignore it...especially when the person was not even present at the show. However, in this instance many of the posts I believe are more concerned with the fact that this show was judged poorly...not necessarily judged with a bias to one competitor or another but just BADLY.
I was at the show and I feel very sad for the competitors. For the girls that had kick butt routines and scored poorly...what are they to think? Do they start changing things around? Hopefully they see these posts and know it was a bad judging day and they rocked. For the girls that had weak routines but scored high...what a false sense of security. To top it off, this show had a decent number of rookies. I can think of at least 2 competitors off the top of my head who made their pro debut. What an awful way to start the year off.
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Tre, do you have to constantly kiss manion's ass when the opportunity comes up? Just accept the fact this stuff is rigged. We all know it and until recently we didn't have such obvious proof.
Are you kidding?
I've been more critical of the IFBB and NPC (includes judges, promoters, officials, etc) over the last several years than almost anyone! You'll be hard-pressed to find too many people - using their real names and not hiding behind an alias - who've been as outspoken about the problems as I have been.
But at the same time, I always make certain to give credit where it's due.
In this case, as has been confirmed by both Shannon and Adela, J.M. does not receive ANY of his athletes' prize money. Contradicting your FALSE CLAIM that he takes a percentage of their winnings - which then made your 'simple logic' collapse - does not equate to kissing anyone's ass.
I'm not denying that there have been very questionable placement decisions over the years, but making that big a jump in the placings against a different lineup with 6 weeks to prepare is NOT unheard of. You guys are talking about this as if it's in the realm of the impossible, but 6 weeks is a long time to tighten up one's physique and to sharpen up one's routine.
The real flaw in your argument is that you're pretty much only saying that Heidi should not have placed where she did, but you have yet to say what the top placings should've been and why.
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You obviously haven't seen the pictures from the show.
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In theory one can improve alot in 6 weeks yes. But when it comes to routine skills, you can't really build a massive amount of flexibility, triple your strength/co-ordination etc in 6 weeks. Also, the same routine is being used, which lacks any real level of difficulty.
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where can you find the pictures from the show ???
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There are 2/3 pics on Dave Palumbo's site.
If anyone knows of anymore let us know :)
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There are 2/3 pics on Dave Palumbo's site.
If anyone knows of anymore let us know :)
That stage background is horribly cluttered.
Whose idea was that?
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You obviously haven't seen the pictures from the show.
I was not there, and I'm willing to reserve judgment on the placement decisions until I've seen some evidence.
My only point here has been that, having seen Heidi compete previously, I knew that she was pro-ready. I also stand behind my argument that a person can go from worst to first in a matter of six weeks and that it doesn't necessarily have to be the result of any conspiracy.
If she had been marked down in New York just because she had been off in Columbus, then THAT would be a problem of judging bias, despite what some of you are arguing. I strongly believe that every single round of judging should be treated as a separate entity (as it were) unto itself. Round 3 in Columbus should have nothing to do with Round 4 in Columbus, let alone have anything to do with Round 1 in New York.
Let's see what happens next.
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We have pictures up now on Bodysport. Just click on the New York Pro Fitness banner on our "Contest" page.
Kevin
http://bodysport.com/contests.html
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Thanks Kevin!
Edit: There are also 100+ more here (http://www.musclemayhem.com/gallery/2006-NYC-Pro-Fitness)
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Are you kidding?
I've been more critical of the IFBB and NPC (includes judges, promoters, officials, etc) over the last several years than almost anyone! You'll be hard-pressed to find too many people - using their real names and not hiding behind an alias - who've been as outspoken about the problems as I have been.
Uhhhh....almost anyone?...hehehe....ohhh...that's right...I do use picsman as my board name...hmmmm wonder if I should change that?...lol...go get 'em Tre:}
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Uhhhh....almost anyone?...hehehe....ohhh...that's right...I do use picsman as my board name...hmmmm wonder if I should change that?...lol...go get 'em Tre:}
Yes, George we're all aware of your hatred towards the NPC & IFBB. Glad to see you participate in the board you love to bash as well. Mayhem must really be boring these days. ;)
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I just looked through the pictures. Only a few people have posted that were at that show. I was not one of them. However, I do find it funny that you guys keep bashing Heidi on her routine flaws. Yet, on bodysport, there is a picture of her doing a high kick that is quite a bit higher than her waist. Having not seen the show, I can't comment on anything else. While shorter than most of the other girls, she came in good condition. She has a good taper in her back without a big imbalance in her body.
I'm only looking at a still picture, which isn't the same as being there, but it's my opinion.
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let us use the word constructive criticism as bashing is baseless, and in this case fans are definitely allowed to speak their mind as long as they explain where they are coming from.
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Glad to see you participate in the board you love to bash as well. Mayhem must really be boring these days. ;)
George is a GetBig basher??
"There will be consequences and repercussions."
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Yes, George we're all aware of your hatred towards the NPC & IFBB. Glad to see you participate in the board you love to bash as well. Mayhem must really be boring these days. ;)
yeah yeah....and you're still the butthead you've always been....so you might as well start deleting...loser!
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yeah yeah....and you're still the butthead you've always been....so you might as well start deleting...loser!
Doh! :D
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yeah yeah....and you're still the butthead you've always been....so you might as well start deleting...loser!
Different board, same bitter George. God Bless ya, ya old fart.
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Different board, same bitter George. God Bless ya, ya old fart.
First off...don't act like you know me...you don't....you know absof*ckinglutely NOTHING about me...you say I'm bitter?....you don't get it...I tell the truth....it doesn't jive with your idea of reality...so you call me bitter....I'm not bitter...you're just a blind, lemming, butthead plain and simple...you accuse me of things I don't do...and you don't even have the wherewithall to try to make sure your facts are straight...remember when you acussed me of emailing one of your "clients"?....well...I didn't forget that...and that's why I consider you king of all buttheads...for a supposedly "in the know" Internet guy....how simple would it have been to CHECK AN IP ADDRESS?......but noooo....you had your mind made up it was me...and you were wrong....100% wrong....you know why?...because I found out who did it...he actually pvt msg'd me......I'll tell you just like I told you're "buddy"....I have one thing and one thing only in common with superman....I don't lie....so please...let's keep God out of this one....he won't/can't help you.....no matter what...you'll always be a loser....you're so laughable.....roflmfao!
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George - with all due respect, I'm going to have to shut you down at that point - this is a serious thread which has presented some serious allegations that need to be addressed.
Please keep the personal tit-for-tat stuff on the main gossip or X boards.
Thanks and welcome.
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Having had a chance to view all the two-minute routines, I now see what all the fuss was about.
According to this scoresheet:
(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h44/Biizarre/06nyprofit.gif)
Heidi Fletcher was placed 3rd in round 3 (which I'm assuming is the two-minute round - please correct me if I'm mistaken) when there were NO LESS THAN 12 routines better than hers.
Judges - you can claim that those of us who weren't there didn't see what you saw, but although video evidence can sometimes be misleading, it could not have lied that much.
Considering that we're talking about 2nd place overall here, this was - without question - one of your worst judging 'jobs' that I've ever seen. Even someone who knew nothing at all about how fitness routines should look would've known that that routine was nowhere close to being the 3rd-best in the competition.
To CQ and the others I doubted, my apologies. I was clearly wrong to in any way defend the possibility that the judges may have been correct on this one. They screwed the pooch, bigtime.
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Note: That's not an attack on Heidi at all, but is an attack on that blatantly incompetent judging panel (unless they're going to assign the blame to the tabulators) who robbed the other competitors, the fans, and the sport itself.
The judges - collectively - were either incompetent or crooked or both.
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George - with all due respect, I'm going to have to shut you down at that point - this is a serious thread which has presented some serious allegations that need to be addressed.
Please keep the personal tit-for-tat stuff on the main gossip or X boards.
Thanks and welcome.
Respect and props back at ya...the fact is you know who just had to put his 2 pesos/slam remark towards me in when the thread had nothing to do with him...or ANY comments I made as NONE were directed at him. Given the importance of this thread...as I also agree it is important...that's all I'll have to say about it...regarding you know who...other than that...let the judges/tabulators have it...because there is NO basis for those placings!
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First off...don't act like you know me...you don't....you know absof*ckinglutely NOTHING about me...you say I'm bitter?....you don't get it...I tell the truth....it doesn't jive with your idea of reality...so you call me bitter....I'm not bitter...you're just a blind, lemming, butthead plain and simple...you accuse me of things I don't do...and you don't even have the wherewithall to try to make sure your facts are straight...remember when you acussed me of emailing one of your "clients"?....well...I didn't forget that...and that's why I consider you king of all buttheads...for a supposedly "in the know" Internet guy....how simple would it have been to CHECK AN IP ADDRESS?......but noooo....you had your mind made up it was me...and you were wrong....100% wrong....you know why?...because I found out who did it...he actually pvt msg'd me......I'll tell you just like I told you're "buddy"....I have one thing and one thing only in common with superman....I don't lie....so please...let's keep God out of this one....he won't/can't help you.....no matter what...you'll always be a loser....you're so laughable.....roflmfao!
major melt down ::)
please step away from the computer and give yourself a time out.
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Great post Tre, and I concur on all points. I have never before posted negative things like this, but in this case the "judging" was so ludicrous it had to be done. I have always just ignored people when they say shows are fixed etc.. but this *really* makes me wonder :-\
Everyone is busy trying to be politically correct and not comment on it...little do they realize that does not help, it will only allow things like this to continue.
Was the vid digital? Do you have a link or anything?
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Note: That's not an attack on Heidi at all, but is an attack on that blatantly incompetent judging panel
Bump for this point. I think this speaks for all those in this thread who have criticized the judging.
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Tre - I believe that round 3 is actually the 2 piece placings. Round 4 is the 2 minute routines....Heidi placed 2nd in round 4...which just highlights your point even more. It is very refreshing to see someone take a different view point after seeing all the facts...thanks for your well written post! :)
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Hey thanks, yeah, just got a note about the rounds...and you're right, that made it even worse. Second?? Are you kidding me???
Someone should've demanded a re-count right then and there. I can imagine that the NYC crowd must've gone nuts, assuming they were paying attention.
Since there was an obvious scoring error, why hasn't the head of the judging panel from that night issued an apology and correction of the placings? That would be the fair and classy thing to do. Oh no, wait...for a moment there, I forgot that I was talking about the IFBB.
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That would be the fair and classy thing to do. Oh no, wait...for a moment there, I forgot that I was talking about the IFBB.
Tre is an IFBB basher??
"There will be consequences and repercussions."
LOL
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Tre- If I hadn't been there myself, I too would have given the judges the benefit of the doubt and assumed sour grapes.
I also agree that the message of this thread should not be wrongly considered a bash on Heidi, she is a great competitor and is actually not the focus of my frustration. I only hope that maybe one of the 2000 viewers of this thread is someone who can make a changes where they are needed. None of us would be going to so many events and posting on websites if we didn't care about this sport and want to see its continued success.
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this is the craziest post i have ever seen. i wasnt in NY but i wish i was based on this.
physiques and facial beauty is subjective yes, but the other stuff does not have to be as much.
do you all know that there are ways to make routine scoring less bias(especially the 45 second). i have 2 nieces in the bay area that come from sport aerobics and there is nothing like this for them. they never bitch about scores. it is what it is based on how they perfrom. mandatories are mandatories and are judged on technical merit and endurance. they dont care if you are the queen of the @#$% 'in IFbb. if you miss a skill it does not matter who your management team is.
why not have EVERYONE have a perfect score of 100 pts and deductions are taken based on missing a skill, bent legs in a skill, splits not touching down all the way, energy is less than par, toes not pointed etc. it can be so simple and yet its made so complex. 12 judges cant all miss bent knees and missed press holds. unless they are not even watching.
the 2 minute can also be judged on tech merit, endurance ratings and entertainment value.
if the athletes are happy with the scoring then fine. but it seems like everyone is bitching EXCEPt the athletes. why doesnt the fitness ifbb rep take a poll for a new way to judge. it can be an experiment. it aint gonna hurt thats for sure.
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I am an athlete who competed in the NY Pro and have been reading this thread since the show. I think athletes like myself may have been hesitant to reply because they feel that they may be penalized in their next show for voicing their opinions. They may also be afraid that by complaining, they will sound like they are crying "sour grapes", or possibly offending other competitors.
I want to first make it clear that in no way do I feel that I should have placed in this show. I am a rookie who still has much to improve on and there were many seasoned, talented competitors in this show. I am just plain confused about how the score sheets read. As a rookie, I feel that it is important for me to look at the physiques and routines of those who place higher than me to see what it is that I need to work on for the next show. However, when I look at the scores of those who placed ahead of me (and there were a lot :)), I have no idea in what direction I should be headed. The placings seemed to show lack consistency-especially in routines (on a personal level, this is what made me the most frusturated, as performing routines is my favorite aspect of competing)
Since I can not come close to predicting what the judges are looking for, I have decided to stop pondering the NY Pro and focus on coming into the Little Rock show the best that I can, as I have always tried to do. I hope that fair and consistent placings in upcoming shows will help any disenchanted fans and athletes return to their love of the sport.
-Katie Szep
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Katie, you have a fantastic routine :)
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I was at the show...... I have been reading this from day one but haven't posted because my feelings have been so left and right. I am not sure where to start. But I have been trying to justify why the judges scored the way the did. (I agree with everybody else) I adore Heidi. She looks beautiful on stage. She is polished and poised. Her style is not what "we" expect of a Pro fitness competitor. But I have to say, I do enjoy watching her. I personally would choose a stronger, more powerful competitor as a winner or high finisher in the routine rounds. I was shocked at first. Then I just felt so badly for Heidi. She was probably on cloud 9 after this. To be a topic in such a horrible situation can't possibly feel good.
As a fitness competitor myself...I can only hope that maybe,...just maybe this might be the start of some sort of structure. I want to improve and be the best I can be just like the girl next to me. But I have no map to follow. I feel like I'm closing my eyes, holding my breath and just going in hopes I get lucky.
I get so irritated when I see girls perform elements that they simply can not do. If you can't dance, don't dance. If you can't do a one arm push up .....well, do figure until you can. Why do I bust my ass to perfect even the easiest of moves if I know it will never make a difference?? I finally just found a few people who I go to with questions ect. and ignore everything else.
Is there hope?
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Who is the fitness rep now that Ryan is somewhat um, out of commision. all the athletes, even the "best scored" athletes need to take a stand and send in some sort of petition to the IFBB requesting some simple changes . if you do not speak up as a whole, you will never be heard. is there anyone that is a good voice to speak for all of you fitness women. if it is the whole damn group in its entirety that speaks, you will not be acting like a cry baby or "sour grapes". start with the mandatory routines it would be the simplest to judge. katie, you have a great routine. it is clearly one of your strengths. if you missed a mandatory, would you throw a hissy fit if the judges had a new system and penalized you? Hell no, of course not, because you had concrete facts to back their decision. good GOD people. do something collectively or DEAL with the sports BS. Deal with it or dont compete. it aint gonna change til you ALL do something.
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Tre - Very well written post, thank you for your research and honesty with what you found.
Hardlyhard - If it was only as easy as you make it sound. I have been a fan for many years and I'm the type of person that gets to know the rules and intimate details for the events I enjoy watching. Why did I tell you this? Because the rules (especially for the mandatory) are already in place and very simple to learn and enforce if a judge cares enough about the fitness competitors to learn them. Granted the rules only tell you the basics and it is up to the IFBB to train and each individual judge to learn what makes each one of the six mandatory moves easier or more difficult so they can judge accordingly.
Second, you can’t expect the athletes to change terrible judging and unfair practices. It is up to the fans (the ones on this board) to write the IFBB and most importantly the media that cover fitness competitions. The media that covers football, baseball or Olympic events would love to report these huge inconsistencies and what seem to be blatant ethical dilemmas that continue to hurt fitness and its competitors year after year. The Olympics may have problems now and then with judges, however when they do the perpetrators are punished (usually banned for life) and the issue is addressed by the IOC. It only makes the competing organization look silly when they pretend no problem exists. In addition most competitors are afraid to speak to the fitness media because of the ties with the highly appointed IFBB officials and neither the competitor or media personality want to rock the boat for fear of being pushed out.
So Hardlyhard I respectively disagree, the concrete facts from the routine rounds already exists, only they support the reason this thread was started and they (the competitors) should not deal with the BS or get out. As a matter of fact everyone should KEEP being vocal and send complaints to the IFBB. Compete for the love of the sport and fight for what is right. This thread has had to have received some attention in the IFBB headquarters?
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Fair enough "huge fitness fan" you do make some strong points. Ive been watching fitness since back in the day when timea and all those girls were around. it seems the same problems are still happening today. i get so torqued up about the athletic side veres the physique side.
i have been intrigued by fitness women for years. i think they are just incredible athletes . and some are INCREDIBLY hot too i might add . the most athletic skills are asked of women who are at their bodies most deprived state. its crazy. they should be judged failry and "huge fitness fan" i have learned a hell uva lot about the rules you are referring to and most dont comply period to rules. so why have them.
IT CAN be MORE simple. IT CAN However it is not due to the blind eye lead by judges etc and as they say old habits die hard. they are afraid of trying something new or too lazy. it is quite sad when the fans know more about the execution of a routine than a judging panel. in fact i was just talking to a fitness pro who trains at my gym. she is going to be promoting her own show and the promoters told her quote "judges dont like and dont want to judge fitness". so it starts at the npc level and moves forward. she is having a hard time finding fitness competitors period.
if you honestly feel that the ifbb will listen to "fans" then people need to speak up. who do you recommend sending a letter to first? id be happy to start the process. im done with my ranting. Hardly Hard
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if you honestly feel that the ifbb will listen to "fans" then people need to speak up. who do you recommend sending a letter to first? id be happy to start the process. im done with my ranting. Hardly Hard
Real quick, as I've only got a moment - I'm really glad to see so many well-founded opinions being expressed here.
No one within the IFBB 'listens', because they do not have to. Again, that's the problem with a zero-accountability system. If a fitness performer-athlete would like to air a grievance, she has no idea who to write or call. The athletes aren't a part of the process, because there is no process.
Don't stop ranting, though. Bang enough drums loudly and eventually something will change.