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Getbig Bodybuilding Boards => Training Q&A => Topic started by: Shinobi on April 19, 2006, 05:33:53 AM
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My fellow iron bros.
When doing barbell rows, I have noticed that the heavier I go, the more difficult it becomes for me to "pull" the barbell to my lower chest. I find that when I use heavy weight(which for me is about 70kgs) I can't get the barbell to touch my chest as I would with a lower weight(say 30kgs for eg).In fact my bicep starts to twist/cramp up whenever I try to row with heavy weight.
My question then, is my form sloppy and should I then stick to the lower weights, bearing in mind that I want a bigger back ?
thanks
Shinobi
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never and i repeat never sacrifice feeling the weight in the intended muscle just to add more weight to the bar and jerk it around.so many people life for years (back work) moving a ton of weight but not feeling the complete motion and pull from the weight and thats why they see little growth. who cares what the number is at the end you want to feel the movement and cause muscle breakdown in your back not arms and thru eating and sleeping you will see growth. always keep trying to add weight but better to do 10 reps and feel the stress than do 6 reps with sloppy/jerky form with 35 more pounds on the bar.I think if you add a little weight and always try to do one more rep even if your only adding 1/4 a pound per workout it will keep the muscle growing by placing more stress and forcing change.look long term after a year you will have added 25 or more pounds to the bar and even more size to the target muscle.good luck
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Somewhere in between-do most of the set fairly strictly, then loosen form at the end in order to progress by doing some cheats, partials or rest-pause reps.
Also try other versions of rowing, that I personally find more effective: T-bars, rows while lying face down on a bench, and hammer machine rows, all of which are more isolating and don't tax the lower back as much. Stick with whatever works the back best.
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I stopped doing barbell rows years ago, simply because it is such an awkward exercise, and when you do go up in weight, then your form gets all out of wack, plus there is a lot of strain on the lower back----talk about an injury waiting to happen.
So... I instead have been doing one arm dumbell rows, I feel absolutely NO STRAIN on my lower back, and I get results !!!
Rather than resting my arm on a bench, I use no bench at all, and rest my forearm on my lower thigh, and it is comfortable and works just fine (well, this exercise is never comfortable , as you all know it can take the breath out of you after a heavy set).
Typically I use around a 100 lb. dumbell for around 10 reps, and have worked up to a 130 lb. dumbell-----now that may not sound like a lot for some of you, but my form is excellent, I get a much better stretch, so I feel it in the muscle more, I am not constantly fighting my form and balance--and I feel no lower back strain or pressure on the lower back.
Since I use 100 lbs. for one arm, that would mean 200 lbs. on a barbell, but anytime I got up to that kind of weight, my form was terrible, and it was just not good.
I love the one arm dumbell rows, and so does my back !!! good luck ;)
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stop doing barbell rows....unless they are really working fo ryou. ive never found them usefull, and they are exceptionally hard to isolate my back with..also they really fuckin hurt my lower back. just doing machine rows ....different vrieties and grips.....hyperextension s will make up fo anylosss of lower back thickness.
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stop doing barbell rows....unless they are really working fo ryou. ive never found them usefull, and they are exceptionally hard to isolate my back with..also they really fuckin hurt my lower back. just doing machine rows ....different vrieties and grips.....hyperextension s will make up fo anylosss of lower back thickness.
I didnt want to sound too harsh about barbell rows in my reply, as they have been one of the key exercises for years and years, but you said it perfectly in your first couple of statements-----I have never found them usefull, hard to isolate, back injury waiting to happen... but I will say, one arm dumbell rows are worth a try !!! Good luck !!!
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I used to do this excercise with perfect form but found I could go much heavier when I was lax with form. Mostly I concentrate on lifting as much as I can and don't think about keeping my back parrallel with the floor, sometimes using a 65 degree angle, I also bounce a little. My logic is this:
1. After watching Coleman and Jay Cutler's videos I noticed they use a higher than 45 degree angle. Coleman even bounces a little.
2. In Dr. Hatfield's book, he says that rows are rows it doesn't matter which ones you do they all effect the back the same. When watching people, like Coleman, doing t-bar rows, I noticed they are standing almost straight up.
So why not use a high angle?
3. I believe that you have to do at least one power excercise per major body part, and no other exercise fits better for the back except maybe t-bar rows.
4. One armed rows suck, like all excercises you do one side at a time. It is too hard to concentrate on an excercise for that long. I barely can concentrate on normal excercises.
Just what works for me. My thickness as gone up a lot since I started going heavy on this movement.
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The angle of the back is completely individual, use whichever angle doesn't stress the back.
One-arm rows, like T-bars, machine rows and face-down bench rows, all isolate the back better, IMO. The *best* way to isolate the back using barbell rows is to rest your head on a pad and keep it there, to eliminate cheating; then it has the same isolation as one-arm dumbbell rows with one arm braced against the bench or leg.
Stick with whatever works-for some, it's rows that use a loose style-if it's hitting the back in good ways, don't worry about strictness. If that doesn't hit the muscles, ensure that the form is kept strict, at least until the last few reps.
Barbell rows are definitely not essential, given that other versions often work better. One-arm rows for example, because of greater strictness and the fact the strain's removed from the lower back, seems to hit the back better, for many.
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When doing barbell rows, I have noticed that the heavier I go, the more difficult it becomes for me to "pull" the barbell to my lower chest.
monster observation. r u retarded?
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just stop lifting before u hurt yourself
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stop Barbell Rows!?!? Are you serious? this is probably one of the best if not THE best exercise for the Lats. Haney and Yates swear by the exercise, This was also one of Arnolds favorite exercises. Just reading people saying get rid of this exercise and stop doing it is making myself sick.
I'll ALWAYS include bb row in my routine, great exercise.
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I WAS BEING SARCASTIC THREE THINGS U NEED FOR A GREAT BACK DEADLIFT'S, BARBELL ROWS, PULL UPS
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Are you serious? this is probably one of the best if not THE best exercise for the Lats. Haney and Yates swear by the exercise, This was also one of Arnolds favorite exercises.
There are many good exercises for lats; various forms of rows & chins are equally good or better than BB rows. Yates loved the Hammer row version enough that Hammer named one of their machines after him. Yates also loves machine pullovers, IMO the best single lat exercise and better than the free weight version of same.
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DO barbell rows....
use weight u can manage till..u slowly advance in weight..
not doin an excercise because its hard......
thats pussy..
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DO barbell rows....
use weight u can manage till..u slowly advance in weight..
not doin an excercise because its hard......
thats pussy..
exactly, gotta man up. Thats like saying "I dont want to squat cuz its uncomfortable" pffft get the hell out of here
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My fellow iron bros.
When doing barbell rows, I have noticed that the heavier I go, the more difficult it becomes for me to "pull" the barbell to my lower chest. I find that when I use heavy weight(which for me is about 70kgs) I can't get the barbell to touch my chest as I would with a lower weight(say 30kgs for eg).In fact my bicep starts to twist/cramp up whenever I try to row with heavy weight.
My question then, is my form sloppy and should I then stick to the lower weights, bearing in mind that I want a bigger back ?
thanks
Shinobi
I suggest sticking with
Deadlifts,rotate on a 3week schedule: 1.regular deadlifts 2.deep deadlifts(standing on a plate or 2) 3.rack deads
DUMBBELL ROWS
Chins, shoulder width
YIP
Zack
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One of the prime exercises for lat/back thickness & width are BB rows. Try curl grips to the lower abs, medium grip to the middle range abs and wide grip to the chest (keeping the elbows out and in line with the shoulders.....also affects the posterior delts very stronger). Might try doing two sets of each in a regular back workout. Can also try DB's with a curl grip, medium & wide. Alternate each side. With doing them together with DB's the focus becomes somewhat lost.
Feel free to cheat on any form of BB rows from time to time. The really strong and massive guy's do. I've been presented with many opportunities to watch some of the top BB'ers & Pro's work the back. Those SLDL-Hi-pull-Row combination BB row's are pretty common in most of the HD gym's in SoCal. I've yet to see many thick, massive back/lats built with doing strict, by the book, BB rows. The Pro's cheat for a reason, it makes them real big, real fast. Try for 4 or 5 fairly good style rep's and than let the looser style begin.
Don't worry that your not "feeling" the lat exercises all the time. The only feeling you want is the feeling when you lat's become big enought to rip out all of your shirts. Now that's a good feeling. Good Luck.
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They're a great exercise, but my lower back can't take the punishment for too long.
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They're a great exercise, but my lower back can't take the punishment for too long.
then you my friend need to start hitting the deads harder
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Untrue; some aren't built for some exercises, in which case deads won't help and might even hurt. Better to try different angles for rows, and other exercises. Bottom line's hitting the back, not forcing the issue. No reason at all to stick with a particular exercise if there are better alternatives.
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Might try bending the knee's more and bring the bar closer to the legs when pulling the bar up for row's. Curl grip and medium grip rows to the lower ab's come to mind. When the bar/weight is too far away for the body, when pulling, there will be way too much tension on the lower back. Can also apply this to DL's, bar too far out.Think of a hinge function of the lower back, less stress when the load closest to the pivot point. There are different physics when the bar is held behind and on the neck, as in the GM'ing exercise. May consider adding a few set's of GM'ings to further strenghten the lower back area. Good Luck.
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I've had better results doing dumbbell rows as opposed to a barbell. Working each side in isolation works great and also my low back, which has been an issue, isn't stressed as much.
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stop doing barbell rows....unless they are really working fo ryou. ive never found them usefull, and they are exceptionally hard to isolate my back with..also they really fuckin hurt my lower back. just doing machine rows ....different vrieties and grips.....hyperextension s will make up fo anylosss of lower back thickness.
This comming from a guy with all the wisdom aquired at his ripe old age of 16.
Barbell rows are an excellent exercise if done correctly.Use heavy weight,but not so heavy that you can't feel it in the back.
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This comming from a guy with all the wisdom aquired at his ripe old age of 16.
The funny thing is, he's right. Do what works & doesn't cause the wrong kind of pain.
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The funny thing is, he's right. Do what works & doesn't cause the wrong kind of pain.
If done correctly how could they not work? I know everyone is different but if they are causing the wrong kind of pain I would bet he is either using way too much weight or using poor form...or both.
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I agree with the guy above who says that BB rows don't hit the lats that well: I did BB rows for years before concluding that. As mentioned, it's too easy to cheat, which removes the positive effects. That's aside from the problems some people have involving the lower back-it's not necessarily a lack of strength but rather a structural problem; some just don't have the build to take that direct downwards pressure. As far as back angle, go with whatever's comfortable, there are no rules.
There are other free-weight alternatives such as T-bars & one-arm rows that from my experience work the lats more intensely, are easier on the lower back; because of the angle of T-bars, I don't find there's the same direct downwards pressure on the lower back, and there are also considerable advantages in grip variations. On one-arms you can take pressure off the back by bracing with the other arm, which also prevents cheating, and the grip can be varied by turning the wrist in any direction.
The only versions of BB rows that I've found helpful are more isolated-bracing your head against something to remove cheating (being careful not to injure the neck in the process), or BB rows done lying face down on a bench.
BB rows are considered by some one of the fundamentals by some, but I'm talking about effectiveness vs. following what's supposed to work.
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I agree with pumpster's statement about various angles for lats...I love doing bbrows...my all time favorite exercise...I have tried various angles and grips...and I think that for ME..I get a better feel in the lats if I stand a bit more verticle than a textbook row...maybe 45 degrees, and pull up to my lower ribcage,not my chest,with both overhand and underhand grips. I alternate grips with each workout..I feel the contraction better with an overhand grip,but can use a little more weight with the underhand grip.Both ways always make my lats sore the next day...so I know I am hitting the back and not just using arm power..
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I noticed Shinobi mentions that he pulls the bar to his lower chest.If you can feel that in the lats great for you but for bent over rows you're supposed to pull the bar into your belly area.I pull to the belly button region myself.Pulling to the chest area involves the rear delts more.
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for some reason doing tbar rows for me does not work my back as much as when i do barbell rows. although DB rows are the best IMO
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I suggest sticking with
Deadlifts,rotate on a 3week schedule: 1.regular deadlifts 2.deep deadlifts(standing on a plate or 2) 3.rack deads
DUMBBELL ROWS
Chins, shoulder width
YIP
Zack
Over time or as you get stronger will deads make your waist get bigger or is that BS? I love deads but can't afford for my waist to grow. Also I have read different theories on pull ups. The wider you go the more travel your limiting which could cause partial back development. Is shoulder width the best route to go?
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On any lat exercise, experiment with grip & grip width. My own experience medium and closer grip are better.
I wouldn't worry about deads effecting your waist; you can always keep the reps higher which will also reduce the risk of injury.
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I have to say I totally agree w/pumpster on what he mentioned there.In my experience medium & close grips work my lats better than the wide grip version. However I still do both versions (cycling them).
I have also noticed in my own training that using a thumbless grip while training back takes the biceps out of the movement & more directly stresses the lats themselves leaving them to do the work.
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Here is what is said to be the best way to do a barbell row (Pendaly rows)
"Rows: Well, the best way to do them is to start with the bar on the floor every single rep. Your middle back will have slight bend to it. You pull the bar off the floor quickly with the arms, and by a powerful arch of your middle back. You finish by touching the bar to your upper stomach or middle stomach. At no time is there any movement of the hips or knees, no hip extension at all, all that bends is the middle back and the shoulders and elbows.
This is hard to do and you have to have good muscular control to do it, or you'll end up straightening up at the hips along with the arching of the back. But if you can master doing them this way you will get a big back. This works because the lats actually extend (arch) the middle back in addition to other functions, just like with glute-ham extensions compared to leg curls…you always get a stronger contraction when you move both the origin and insertion of a muscle, flexing it from both ends so to speak.
The bar returns to the floor after each rep. The bent row is actually best done as an explosive movement and the bar is moved fast. I have trained many people who could do this exercise with 350 or more lbs. I myself have done reps with 425, Ed Coan, who also knows how to do them properly, has done reps with over 500lbs without his back ever coming above parallel with the ground. That is stronger than Dorian Yates or Ronnie Coleman, by the way. "
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Another method that works for me on the barbell rows would be to use a thumbless grip, with the knuckles pointing down directly onto the floor.
From there, row it up to your upper abdominal area and touch it, squeezing the lats at the same time, all the while maintaining the pointing of knuckles down to the floor. It works for me and it may for you too.
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Another method that works for me on the barbell rows would be to use a thumbless grip, with the knuckles pointing down directly onto the floor.
From there, row it up to your upper abdominal area and touch it, squeezing the lats at the same time, all the while maintaining the pointing of knuckles down to the floor. It works for me and it may for you too.
I agree....even on pull ups I use a thumbless grip.I don't know why,maybe it is just mental,but for me this grip helps me to concentrate on my back and not my arms.Once I grab the bar with a full grip it seems like I want to use my biceps and forearms more.
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Thumbless grip seems to help, hard to say why: seems to take the emphasis off the hands (bis/tris) and put it on elbows (lats). Thumbless w/ straps works.
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Some excercises are compound movements and you can't completely isolate with them. They are meant for mass building and I don't think you should obsess with isolating with them. I think you should take your mind out of your muscle and into lifting as much as you can for these movements.
With BB rows, it is hard not to pivot a little because when the bar hits your body, the force of it will cause your body to move a little, unless you are doing really slow reps. It seems better to me to ignore that stuff and go heavy. On most excercises though the mind should be in the muscle and form should be strict. This is just my opinion, but most of the pros I've seen will get a little sloppy on compound movements.
Most of the training protocols stuck to the top of this forum and in other places suggest heavy lifting with few movements. The extreme of this would be Coleman who always lifts heavy and sloppy. Lee Haney used to preach all that mind in the muscle with strict form stuff and he was a lot smaller than Coleman.
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One of those wildly unsupported theories that is perpetrated. Go heavier on most exercises and results follow, sometimes faster with isolations, actually.
Basically to get the best mind-muscle connection & development from compounds, subtle variations are used to make them a little more like isolations and less like typical compounds that are great for sports applications.
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;)One of the finest upper back movements ever created. I will reiterate A few tips I'm sure all of you are aware of. Nothing below a 90 degree angle no higher than a 45. Pull to the waist. Initiate the pull from the elbows (not the biceps). Concentrate on the contraction and release in a controlled manner.
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One of those wildly unsupported theories that is perpetrated. Go heavier on most exercises and results follow, sometimes faster with isolations, actually.
Basically to get the best mind-muscle connection & development from compounds, subtle variations are used to make them a little more like isolations and less like typical compounds that are great for sports applications.
When you pull something towards your body you are using your lats whether or not you are concentrating on using them or not. You can't use your pecs in a barbell row, no matter how much you concentrate on them. You can reduce the amount of bicep involvement to an extent, though not completely.
There is definately a connection between lifting heavy and hypertrophy. The successful bodybuilders, I'm aware of, that don't lift that heavy, do a lot of volume or pre-exhaust (like Haney used to).
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you just incorporate more muscle fibers when focusing on the contraction. Your momentum can eliminate a good portion of the movement. I say moderate weight with strict form is the way to go for upper back development.
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you just incorporate more muscle fibers when focusing on the contraction. Your momentum can eliminate a good portion of the movement. I say moderate weight with strict form is the way to go for upper back development.
And powerlifters don't incorporate most of their muscle fibers in their lifts? The top 3 bodybuilders right now are Coleman, Cutler and Ruhl and you don't see them ever lifting moderate weights. Like Ronnie says, " everybody wants to be a bodybuilder, but no one wants to lift no damn heavy weights."
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Right now Ronnie has several tears that might effect his prep for this years O (due to excessively heavy loads?), Jay has resorted to volume training(his best shape at his last O?) and I don't know too much about Mr. Ruhl. By the way heavy is a relative term Ronnie manages to do 10-12 reps with the majority of his training poundages thus making it moderate for him. 8)
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Ron lifts big numbers for videos, but for the most part is going moderately heavy using 10-15 reps per set, which is better for growth and mitigates injury risk. He's lowering the weight even more when doing giant sets with virtually no rest in between sets and when doing isolations.
The muscles have to be isolated as much as possible during compounds by using variations that isolate the muscles more. Either with strict reps (followed by looser style at the end of sets) or cheats that many pros do that amount to partials within the ROM sweet spots.
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Ron lifts big numbers for videos, but for the most part is going moderately heavy using 10-15 reps per set, which is better for growth and mitigates injury risk. He's lowering the weight even more when doing giant sets with virtually no rest in between sets and when doing isolations.
The muscles have to be isolated as much as possible during compounds by using variations that isolate the muscles more. Either with strict reps (followed by looser style at the end of sets) or cheats that many pros do that amount to partials within the ROM sweet spots.
Lifting with your elbows out takes emphasis off the lats and onto the middle back. Lifting with your elbows will reduce bicep involvement. It is also possible to get the lower back involved as well. But after doing these for a while, you should be able to do all that instinictively. If you are using correct form, you will be lifting with your lats whether you are feeling it or not.
I think most of the pros do a lot of warm up sets of 10-15 reps but their actual sets are more like 5 reps, but I could be wrong on this. Most do a bulking cycle where their reps are considerably lower.
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If you think that lifting with elbows takes the emphasis off lats when it in fact isolates them more, then you disagree with me, Milos and a whole lotta others who've arrived at that conclusion from experience and knowledge.
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If you think that lifting with elbows takes the emphasis off lats when it in fact isolates them more, then you disagree with me, Milos and a whole lotta others who've arrived at that conclusion from experience and knowledge.
I said lifting with your elbows takes emphasis off your biceps. Lifting with your elbows OUT takes emphasis off your lats, lifting with your elbows IN puts emphasis on your lats.
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OK i got lost in that run-on sentence and paragraph. ;D
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Here is what is said to be the best way to do a barbell row (Pendaly rows)
"Rows: Well, the best way to do them is to start with the bar on the floor every single rep. Your middle back will have slight bend to it. You pull the bar off the floor quickly with the arms, and by a powerful arch of your middle back. You finish by touching the bar to your upper stomach or middle stomach. At no time is there any movement of the hips or knees, no hip extension at all, all that bends is the middle back and the shoulders and elbows.
This is hard to do and you have to have good muscular control to do it, or you'll end up straightening up at the hips along with the arching of the back. But if you can master doing them this way you will get a big back. This works because the lats actually extend (arch) the middle back in addition to other functions, just like with glute-ham extensions compared to leg curls…you always get a stronger contraction when you move both the origin and insertion of a muscle, flexing it from both ends so to speak.
The bar returns to the floor after each rep. The bent row is actually best done as an explosive movement and the bar is moved fast. I have trained many people who could do this exercise with 350 or more lbs. I myself have done reps with 425, Ed Coan, who also knows how to do them properly, has done reps with over 500lbs without his back ever coming above parallel with the ground. That is stronger than Dorian Yates or Ronnie Coleman, by the way. "
Bumpin' this.
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stick to t-bar rows and dumbell rows. the first for overall mass and the second for fuller range of motion and contraction. the BB rows works great but it puts too much stress on lower back and hip.
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stick to t-bar rows and dumbell rows. the first for overall mass and the second for fuller range of motion and contraction. the BB rows works great but it puts too much stress on lower back and hip.
My experience too, BB rows just don't "feel right" when it comes to my back and the concern about injury distracts from the concentration in the exercise. Exactly the opposite with DB rows in which I feel free to go as heavy as I want/can.
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I suggest sticking with
Deadlifts,rotate on a 3week schedule: 1.regular deadlifts 2.deep deadlifts(standing on a plate or 2) 3.rack deads
DUMBBELL ROWS
Chins, shoulder width
YIP
Zack
this is a good suggestion, I think he should also add lever pull-ups to have a horizontal row in the mix