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Getbig Main Boards => Gossip & Opinions => Topic started by: sync pulse on June 24, 2021, 08:47:12 AM
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I would withhold the association fee for this month...
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That is unreal.
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A-rabs again?
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My condo-lences.
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What a let down.
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This is a huge thing in the engineering world. I suspect people will lose their "stamps" An engineer's stamp is the equivalent of a doctor's prescription pad.
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After effects of an earthquake from the bomb set off the FL coast a few days ago. The earth cracked opened, now the creatures from Journey To The Center Of The Earth will emerge and terrorize the area. Which is conveniently in the vicinity of The Rock's beloved city of Miami. Stand by for a Coming Soon news release where Dwayne Johnson is promoted to head of the neighborhood watch committee to handle this mess.
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This is a huge thing in the engineering world. I suspect people will lose their "stamps" An engineer's stamp is the equivalent of a doctor's prescription pad.
I hope so. This is happening too often lately. Look at the New Hard Rock casino that was being built in New Orleans.
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This is a huge thing in the engineering world. I suspect people will lose their "stamps" An engineer's stamp is the equivalent of a doctor's prescription pad.
I'm a Structural PE in 17 states.
There will be a forensic evaluation of the site to determine negligence on either the Engineer of Record or the Contractor (or Subs).
Going to be a few years in court.
I've been under evaluation before, turns out the Contractor messed up and built it wrong. There was a large concrete retaining wall next to a bridge that buckled after a heavy rain event. Contractor built it wrong and was held liable.
It's a terrible feeling.
I bet the Engineer for that structure design is drinking heavily today. ;D
If found negligent, the PE can lose his license for period of time or forever. They can also be criminally liable for any loss of life.
The cost of the failure will be covered by the Engineering/Construction company's insurance and is most like set certain min/max amount.
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I'm a Structural PE in 17 states.
There will be a forensic evaluation of the site to determine negligence on either the Engineer of Record or the Contractor (or Subs).
Going to be a few years in court.
I've been under evaluation before, turns out the Contractor messed up and built it wrong. There was a large concrete retaining wall next to a bridge that buckled after a heavy rain event. Contractor built it wrong and was held liable.
It's a terrible feeling.
I bet the Engineer for that structure design is drinking heavily today. ;D
If found negligent, the PE can lose his license for period of time or forever. They can also be criminally liable for any loss of life.
The cost of the failure will be covered by the Engineering/Construction company's insurance and is most like set certain min/max amount.
Penis Examiner?
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Penis Examiner?
Checking for the correct shaft to head ratio?
Can one be almost too hard..? ;D
(Christ even I'm doing it now - this place has corrupted me... ...)
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Penis Pussy Examiner?
In many ways my dude, many.
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https://www.news4jax.com/news/florida/2021/06/24/researcher-high-rise-that-collapsed-had-been-sinking-at-alarming-rate/
Maybe this had something to do with it or maybe not. Is 2mm a year a lot of movement?
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I was thinking of buying a Condo in the Pearl District. Guess I'll think again before making a big mistake.
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https://www.news4jax.com/news/florida/2021/06/24/researcher-high-rise-that-collapsed-had-been-sinking-at-alarming-rate/
Maybe this had something to do with it or maybe not. Is 2mm a year a lot of movement?
It could.
If a building is sinking or leaning, it's typically a bad sign.
The frame and foundation is designed to have a little flex in it, but not much.
Depending on the soil properties, there is always potential for settlement over time.
Too many variables.
I'm curious to see what happens.
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It could.
If a building is sinking or leaning, it's typically a bad sign.
The frame and foundation is designed to have a little flex in it, but not much.
Depending on the soil properties, there is always potential for settlement over time.
Too many variables.
I'm curious to see what happens.
Parts of Florida are at sea level and sea levels have been on the rise. The average elevation of Miami is 6 feet above sea level. Miami's sea level is rising on an average of 1 inch every 3 years.
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Parts of Florida are at sea level and sea levels have been on the rise. The average elevation of Miami is 6 feet above sea level. Miami's sea level is rising on an average of 1 inch every 3 years.
Houston sinks like 2" per year.
Haven't seen a building fall over yet.
Soft soils and the reduction of the water table are to blame.
Typically the sinking is over a large area, so the impact to a foundation is minimal.
We also designed for this when i lived there.
I used to design some seriously robust foundations.
Lots of drilled piers.
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After effects of an earthquake from the bomb set off the FL coast a few days ago. The earth cracked opened, now the creatures from Journey To The Center Of The Earth will emerge and terrorize the area. Which is conveniently in the vicinity of The Rock's beloved city of Miami. Stand by for a Coming Soon news release where Dwayne Johnson is promoted to head of the neighborhood watch committee to handle this mess.
Source?
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CIA hit imo....
they have a history of taking out buildings
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Holy Crap...I just found out this building had been standing 40 years!
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Collapsed Miami condo had been sinking into Earth as early as the 1990s, researchers say
https://news.yahoo.com/collapsed-miami-condo-sinking-earth-181026431.html
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CIA hit imo....
they have a history of taking out buildings
https://mobile.twitter.com/disclosetv/status/1408138336733171713?s=10
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I know there’s not a tally yet, but I’m surprised only a handful of people died in this thing. Sad stuff.
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Houston sinks like 2" per year.
Haven't seen a building fall over yet.
Soft soils and the reduction of the water table are to blame.
Typically the sinking is over a large area, so the impact to a foundation is minimal.
We also designed for this when i lived there.
I used to design some seriously robust foundations.
Lots of drilled piers.
I studied electrical engineering...but it was explained to me that Houston highrises are engineered to displace less than the soil under the building...so the thing effectively "Floats"...
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:(
(https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/206713680_10159538614670667_8930413474170921552_n.jpg?_nc_cat=1&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=M9TVv5UcZLUAX90h7ji&_nc_ht=scontent-lga3-1.xx&oh=d43d224b2d091f23303b713484fef058&oe=60D9EFCC)
(https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/204825550_10159538611385667_4899789489481205963_n.jpg?_nc_cat=106&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=Gnf6pWMTcxMAX--57PR&tn=1icXoRneS26xCeN4&_nc_ht=scontent-lga3-1.xx&oh=7f39a3fdda4b372744bdcea8648a5b26&oe=60DA2C8E)
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Parts of Florida are at sea level and sea levels have been on the rise. The average elevation of Miami is 6 feet above sea level. Miami's sea level is rising on an average of 1 inch every 3 years.
The buildings sit on reclaimed wetlands. I'd suggest that was a bigger factor than rising sea levels....
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I studied electrical engineering...but it was explained to me that Houston highrises are engineered to displace less than the soil under the building...so the thing effectively "Floats"...
That's true more or less. They need "some" movement.
They are also anchored like 40-feet into the ground for stability.
A lot of it depends on seismic conditions.
The foundations under these things are incredible, they aren't moving anywhere.
Like in a big stadium or driving over a massive bridge, people get nervous when they feel a little movement, but it needs to move a little. It's when there is zero movement that you should be concerned.
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:'(
(https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/203150993_10159539646750667_2396971632837330350_n.jpg?_nc_cat=106&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=7s1cgoX4xz8AX8oGUtJ&_nc_ht=scontent-lga3-1.xx&oh=8f754f0ef582eb528a2d95fa5a6427a2&oe=60DA7EC2)
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Collapsed Miami condo had been sinking into Earth as early as the 1990s, researchers say
https://news.yahoo.com/collapsed-miami-condo-sinking-earth-181026431.html
riiiiiggghhht....LOL
then every day a miami condo building would be falling down..
never happened before but... THIS time is different...
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riiiiiggghhht....LOL
then every day a miami condo building would be falling down..
never happened before but... THIS time is different...
There was a minor earthquake last year in Greenville, SC where I live. Shaked the whole house and miraculously this 3 story place never came crashing down, lol
I imagine the final report on why these condos collapsed will be very interesting.
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We be jammin!
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I was thinking of buying a Condo in the Pearl Necklace District. Guess I'll think again before making a big mistake.
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Source?
Very good....as if either of you are being serious.
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Looked like one of those building demolitions.
Something strange going on. No way a building would just drop like that.
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Well, if there was an underlying problem with the building because of an underlying defect that was dormant for 40 years...A violation of original engineering specifications?...Building inspectors paid off during initial construction?...Underlying design flaw?...
Look up Citicorp building...There was an underlying design fault...They caught it in time.
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Looked like one of those building demolitions.
Something strange going on. No way a building would just drop like that.
With a concrete/steel frame and stacked decked floors, that's normal.
If it was built like the WTC i would argue, specially WTC 7, which caught fire and collapsed. It was the first building of that material to collapse due to paper fire and zero structural damage, in history. ;D
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Well, if there was an underlying problem with the building because of an underlying defect that was dormant for 40 years...A violation of original engineering specifications?...Building inspectors paid off during initial construction?...Underlying design flaw?...
Look up Citicorp building...There was an underlying design fault...They caught it in time.
Could be any or all of those.
40 years ago things where built differently. Less code enforcement, etc.
I wouldn't be surprised if they cut a few corners.
It's going to be difficult to tell, but since people died it's going to be looked at very closely.
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They'll be tying this to DeSantis somehow in 3-2-1.
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They'll be tying this to DeSantis somehow in 3-2-1.
Him or Trump they blame for everything bad.
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Penis Examiner?
Checking for the correct shaft to head ratio?
Can one be almost too hard....?
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Had to stifle a guilty chuckle there ;D
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With a concrete/steel frame and stacked decked floors, that's normal.
If it was built like the WTC i would argue, specially WTC 7, which caught fire and collapsed. It was the first building of that material to collapse due to paper fire and zero structural damage, in history. ;D
What are you saying happened to WTC 7?
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Where are all of the 9/11 conspiracy theorists claiming the Miami tower had to be rigged with secret explosives because buildings “don’t just fall” despite being struck by a 200,000lb object traveling at 600mph.
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I know there’s not a tally yet, but I’m surprised only a handful of people died in this thing. Sad stuff.
You would think pretty much all the residents at that time would be there sleeping especially during the week
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Where are all of the 9/11 conspiracy theorists claiming the Miami tower had to be rigged with secret explosives because buildings “don’t just fall” despite being struck by a 200,000lb object traveling at 600mph.
This building was detonated.
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This building was detonated.
If you are right...and you could be....they will surely find evidence of it once all the bodies are accounted for and they can redirect their time to investigating the reasons behind the building's collapse.
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This building was detonated.
In the video, there appeared to be flashes of light inside, just before the building crumbled
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Champlain Towers North, an identical condo to the Champlain Towers South building that came down early Thursday morning, is being watched closely by local officials.
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No steel I beams?
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Anxious Residents of Sister Tower to Fallen Florida Condo Wonder: Stay or Go?
The partly collapsed Champlain Towers South scared people who live in Champlain Towers North. But no one has ordered them to evacuate — yet.
by Kimiko de Freytas-Tamura
SURFSIDE, Fla. — Philip Zyne peered over the balcony of his condo near Miami Beach around midday on Saturday and pointed to a large crack running in the parking lot below his unit.
Normally, he might not have given it a moment’s thought. But Mr. Zyne, 71, lives at Champlain Towers North, the sister condo complex to the building in Surfside, Fla., that partially collapsed into a mass of rubble on Thursday, leaving four people dead and 159 missing. Now he was on high alert: Could the building where he lives be next?
“I would’ve never noticed that if this hadn’t happened,” Mr. Zyne said.
It is a question on the minds of many South Floridians, especially those in older, beachfront buildings that are faced day in and day out with similar outside conditions as the Champlain Towers South: salty air, rising seas, aging concrete.
On Saturday, Mayor Daniella Levine Cava of Miami-Dade County announced a 30-day audit of all buildings 40 years and older under the county’s jurisdiction, which does not include cities like Miami and Surfside, where the building fell.
Mayor Charles W. Burkett of Surfside said he was considering asking residents of Champlain Towers North to voluntarily evacuate as a precaution until their building, which has had no reports of serious problems, could be thoroughly inspected.
From the outside, Champlain Towers North, at 8877 Collins Ave., seems identical to Champlain Towers South — same developer and same design, built just one year apart. Most terrifying for Mr. Zyne is that his unit is in the same part of the building as the apartments that crumbled in the South complex, those facing the pool and the Atlantic.
“It’s scary,” said Bud Thomas, 55, his neighbor upstairs, as he also looked out on Saturday. “I’m hoping that this one doesn’t have the same structural problems as the other one.”
Members of the condominium board, who are longtime Champlain Towers North residents, said in interviews on Saturday that they are confident their building is in far better shape than the South building was, as a result of prompt and continuous maintenance.
But that has not reassured some of their residents, some of whom hastily packed bags and found other places to sleep for at least a few days in the immediate aftermath of the nearby disaster.
The Zynes left their apartment to stay with their daughter but came back on Saturday. They recalled being awakened in the early hours of Thursday by an alarm signaling that the lights had gone out in their condominium. It was only later that they realized the lights had gone out at about the same time that the nearby building had collapsed.
Nora Zyne, 69, lost three friends who remained unaccounted for.
“I feel extremely saddened — I’ve known them for 30 years,” she said. “We were all so close. I felt a sense of — can you imagine being at home in the safest place, you’re sleeping and that horrific —” Her thought trailed off. “I pray that they were asleep and don’t know what happened. You lost people you shared your life with. I can’t understand how something like that could happen.”
On Saturday, a family of four left the building carrying their belongings and grocery bags en route to a nearby hotel. “We just want to move out, just for safety,” said one member of the family, who declined to be identified.
The atmosphere in the building lobby was somewhat tense as some residents who had heard about a possible evacuation tried to press condo board members for more information.
“Have people looked at the water in the basement?” Betty Clarick, 82, who lives on the fifth floor, asked Ms. Gandelman in the lobby. (Ms. Clarick also called the building’s maintenance and management “excellent.”)
“Of course I’ve been apprehensive,” said Rafik Ayoub, 76, a second-floor resident who has lived in the building for 17 years. “We just want to make sure that our building gets inspected thoroughly.” (“They building is run very well,” he added.)
Minutes from a November condo board meeting obtained by The New York Times showed that some maintenance work was underway in hallways, which have been stripped of their baseboards and in some cases remained covered in plastic. The board also discussed a concern about planters near the pool that were leaking into the parking garage below, a problem similar to one of the most serious deficiencies identified in a 2018 engineer’s report about what was causing rebar to rust and concrete to crumble in the South towers.
A third building, Champlain Towers East, which was erected in 1994 with a different design from the other condos, stands between the North towers and the remains of the South towers.
Champlain Towers North was built in 1982, a year after Champlain Towers South. Its mandatory 40-year building recertification is due next year. Naum Lusky, the president of the condo board, said the association had begun to work with inspectors ahead of that date but now would accelerate efforts in light of the South tragedy.
He emphasized that the board in that building has addressed aging building problems as they have come up in order to avoid the kind of major repairs that had been identified as necessary in the South building before half of it came down.
“This building is spick and span,” he said. “There is no comparison.”
In a show of his confidence, Mr. Lusky, 81, who has lived in the North towers for 22 years, stayed in the building after the neighboring collapse.
Last year, the building inspected all balconies to look for water leaks and fix them. Work on the pool deck was completed about six months ago, said Hilda Gandelman, another condo board member. That work addressed the leaky planters, according to Mr. Lusky. The building manager declined to be interviewed.
Ms. Gandelman said she knows three of the people missing in the South towers. She said her friends from that condo would come visit and note that the North complex was in better shape.
“They used to come to this building and they used to say, ‘Oh my goodness, this building is so well-kept,’” she said. “‘In our building they have to ask for so many special assessments,’” her neighbors told her, she said.
John Pistorino, a Miami structural engineer, said that the collapse of the South towers did not necessarily mean that the North towers — or any other buildings in the area — were at particular risk of collapse.
“This collapse is so unusual, I don’t think this is indicative of all the buildings we have up and down the coast,” he said. But he added that the collapse was “certainly a warning to do due diligence on all the buildings, including that particular one,” to make sure that the buildings have been well maintained.
It was difficult not to worry about a 39-year-old building so similar to a 40-year-old building that fell in such stunning fashion. Mr. Burkett, the Surfside mayor, said beachfront residents from across his small town have called him, nervous.
“Are the buildings on the ocean safe?” they asked him.
What to do took over part of a special meeting of the Town Council on Friday. After consulting with other officials, including Ms. Levine Cava, Mr. Burkett said on Saturday that a voluntary evacuation might be a good idea. He planned to approach the condo board, which has scheduled a meeting for Sunday morning.
“We would rather not make it mandatory,” he said. “If there are people in that building who are comfortable staying here, it seems to me the chances are low that we’d have the same exact problem with that building. But personally I would not want to take that chance.”
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No steel I beams?
Rebar apparently.
Florida Building Collapse: 2018 Report Found ‘Major Structural Damage’
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Buildings dont just collapse in their own footprint.
Must have been a jumbo jet flew into it
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Rebar apparently.
Florida Building Collapse: 2018 Report Found ‘Major Structural Damage’
i wonder if each level is concrete rebar? That would seem very dangerous
Wood frame and lightweight drywall is the way to go on a solid rock foundation
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i wonder if each level is concrete rebar? That would seem very dangerous
Wood frame and lightweight drywall is the way to go on a solid rock foundation
No, rebar and concrete is how these structures and most others are made and have been made for decades.
It's cheap and effective.
You don't use wood for buildings that tall.
You don't use steel I beams either. Too expensive and zero value.
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Anxious Residents of Sister Tower to Fallen Florida Condo Wonder: Stay or Go?
The partly collapsed Champlain Towers South scared people who live in Champlain Towers North. But no one has ordered them to evacuate — yet.
by Kimiko de Freytas-Tamura
SURFSIDE, Fla. — Philip Zyne peered over the balcony of his condo near Miami Beach around midday on Saturday and pointed to a large crack running in the parking lot below his unit.
Normally, he might not have given it a moment’s thought. But Mr. Zyne, 71, lives at Champlain Towers North, the sister condo complex to the building in Surfside, Fla., that partially collapsed into a mass of rubble on Thursday, leaving four people dead and 159 missing. Now he was on high alert: Could the building where he lives be next?
“I would’ve never noticed that if this hadn’t happened,” Mr. Zyne said.
It is a question on the minds of many South Floridians, especially those in older, beachfront buildings that are faced day in and day out with similar outside conditions as the Champlain Towers South: salty air, rising seas, aging concrete.
On Saturday, Mayor Daniella Levine Cava of Miami-Dade County announced a 30-day audit of all buildings 40 years and older under the county’s jurisdiction, which does not include cities like Miami and Surfside, where the building fell.
Mayor Charles W. Burkett of Surfside said he was considering asking residents of Champlain Towers North to voluntarily evacuate as a precaution until their building, which has had no reports of serious problems, could be thoroughly inspected.
From the outside, Champlain Towers North, at 8877 Collins Ave., seems identical to Champlain Towers South — same developer and same design, built just one year apart. Most terrifying for Mr. Zyne is that his unit is in the same part of the building as the apartments that crumbled in the South complex, those facing the pool and the Atlantic.
“It’s scary,” said Bud Thomas, 55, his neighbor upstairs, as he also looked out on Saturday. “I’m hoping that this one doesn’t have the same structural problems as the other one.”
Members of the condominium board, who are longtime Champlain Towers North residents, said in interviews on Saturday that they are confident their building is in far better shape than the South building was, as a result of prompt and continuous maintenance.
But that has not reassured some of their residents, some of whom hastily packed bags and found other places to sleep for at least a few days in the immediate aftermath of the nearby disaster.
The Zynes left their apartment to stay with their daughter but came back on Saturday. They recalled being awakened in the early hours of Thursday by an alarm signaling that the lights had gone out in their condominium. It was only later that they realized the lights had gone out at about the same time that the nearby building had collapsed.
Nora Zyne, 69, lost three friends who remained unaccounted for.
“I feel extremely saddened — I’ve known them for 30 years,” she said. “We were all so close. I felt a sense of — can you imagine being at home in the safest place, you’re sleeping and that horrific —” Her thought trailed off. “I pray that they were asleep and don’t know what happened. You lost people you shared your life with. I can’t understand how something like that could happen.”
On Saturday, a family of four left the building carrying their belongings and grocery bags en route to a nearby hotel. “We just want to move out, just for safety,” said one member of the family, who declined to be identified.
The atmosphere in the building lobby was somewhat tense as some residents who had heard about a possible evacuation tried to press condo board members for more information.
“Have people looked at the water in the basement?” Betty Clarick, 82, who lives on the fifth floor, asked Ms. Gandelman in the lobby. (Ms. Clarick also called the building’s maintenance and management “excellent.”)
“Of course I’ve been apprehensive,” said Rafik Ayoub, 76, a second-floor resident who has lived in the building for 17 years. “We just want to make sure that our building gets inspected thoroughly.” (“They building is run very well,” he added.)
Minutes from a November condo board meeting obtained by The New York Times showed that some maintenance work was underway in hallways, which have been stripped of their baseboards and in some cases remained covered in plastic. The board also discussed a concern about planters near the pool that were leaking into the parking garage below, a problem similar to one of the most serious deficiencies identified in a 2018 engineer’s report about what was causing rebar to rust and concrete to crumble in the South towers.
A third building, Champlain Towers East, which was erected in 1994 with a different design from the other condos, stands between the North towers and the remains of the South towers.
Champlain Towers North was built in 1982, a year after Champlain Towers South. Its mandatory 40-year building recertification is due next year. Naum Lusky, the president of the condo board, said the association had begun to work with inspectors ahead of that date but now would accelerate efforts in light of the South tragedy.
He emphasized that the board in that building has addressed aging building problems as they have come up in order to avoid the kind of major repairs that had been identified as necessary in the South building before half of it came down.
“This building is spick and span,” he said. “There is no comparison.”
In a show of his confidence, Mr. Lusky, 81, who has lived in the North towers for 22 years, stayed in the building after the neighboring collapse.
Last year, the building inspected all balconies to look for water leaks and fix them. Work on the pool deck was completed about six months ago, said Hilda Gandelman, another condo board member. That work addressed the leaky planters, according to Mr. Lusky. The building manager declined to be interviewed.
Ms. Gandelman said she knows three of the people missing in the South towers. She said her friends from that condo would come visit and note that the North complex was in better shape.
“They used to come to this building and they used to say, ‘Oh my goodness, this building is so well-kept,’” she said. “‘In our building they have to ask for so many special assessments,’” her neighbors told her, she said.
John Pistorino, a Miami structural engineer, said that the collapse of the South towers did not necessarily mean that the North towers — or any other buildings in the area — were at particular risk of collapse.
“This collapse is so unusual, I don’t think this is indicative of all the buildings we have up and down the coast,” he said. But he added that the collapse was “certainly a warning to do due diligence on all the buildings, including that particular one,” to make sure that the buildings have been well maintained.
It was difficult not to worry about a 39-year-old building so similar to a 40-year-old building that fell in such stunning fashion. Mr. Burkett, the Surfside mayor, said beachfront residents from across his small town have called him, nervous.
“Are the buildings on the ocean safe?” they asked him.
What to do took over part of a special meeting of the Town Council on Friday. After consulting with other officials, including Ms. Levine Cava, Mr. Burkett said on Saturday that a voluntary evacuation might be a good idea. He planned to approach the condo board, which has scheduled a meeting for Sunday morning.
“We would rather not make it mandatory,” he said. “If there are people in that building who are comfortable staying here, it seems to me the chances are low that we’d have the same exact problem with that building. But personally I would not want to take that chance.”
Shows how stupid people are.
Planes crash too, but you still get on them.
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OVERLOAD, This may have been mention above already but here in LV they were in the process of building a 47-story tall hotel/condo complex (Harmon Towers) but stopped at 26 floor when someone 'discovered' that the rebar size was insufficient.
So they wrapped it up and tore it down.
The 'wrapping up' procedure was interesting because unless you were aware that this 26 floor building was being torn down ... you'd never know what was happening inside that 'wrapped up package'.
Why would it take 26 floors to discover that something was amiss?
I understand that it caused a $500,000,000 lawsuit.
Would a 47 story building fall down eventually if they said, "Fug it!' and continued to floor 47 without using the right sized rebar?
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OVERLOAD, This may have been mention above already but here in LV they were in the process of building a 47-story tall hotel/condo complex (Harmon Towers) but stopped at 26 floor when someone 'discovered' that the rebar size was insufficient.
So they wrapped it up and tore it down.
The 'wrapping up' procedure was interesting because unless you were aware that this 26 floor building was being torn down ... you'd never know what was happening inside that 'wrapped up package'.
Why would it take 26 floors to discover that something was amiss?
I understand that it caused a $500,000,000 lawsuit.
Would a 47 story building fall down eventually if they said, "Fug it!' and continued to floor 47 without using the right sized rebar?
The Contractor was not inspecting his materials correctly or read the construction plans wrong. It happens quite often. Sometimes they are looking at an older set of construction plans that were not final, they rebar size may have been changed due to something being added to the structure prior to the construction beginning.
Or the contractor was trying to cut corners and make money on a different size, which is rare but happens too. Then a 3rd party inspector caught it, happens a lot.
Based on the calculations from the structural engineer, if a smaller size rebar is used it could very well compromise the structural integrity of the building. It wouldn't collapse immediately, but it could over time. The calculations used are based on height, weight, loading, soil type, foundation design and seismic/wind factors. So a small change in size over the span of a building that size could be catastrophic. Concrete without the properly sized rebar is very weak and will crack/fail easily. There are complex calculations we use based on the size of the rebar and the thickness of the concrete, changing the size, spacing or tie locations will cause the entire system to fail.
Many years ago one of my young engineers designed a 5 story building. He forgot to calculate the weight of the bricks on the face of the exterior walls. Just this difference changed the entire steel size and concrete thickness. The company i worked for got sued, we had to pay the difference because they had already started construction.
These things happen, everyone makes mistakes, that's why we have some many reviews. That's why we have regulatory agencies and permitting. Code enforcement is important as are construction inspections by 3rd parties. It's all about "safety".
I've seen a lot of shit in 20 years and i've built structures all over the world. These things are NOT common in the USA, but very common in other areas.
As engineers we follow the rules, we don't get creative. We follow local code and best engineering practices, it's not very difficult, but mistake happen.
And yes, if the wrong steel was used, it has to be torn down and built correctly. I've gotten into a lot of heated debates with contractors over mistakes, they always think you can bandaid it or add more steel somewhere else, which is very rarely the case.
All i have to do is call the local code enforcement agency and report the mistake, they will handle the rest in the name of life safety.
They wrap buildings during demolition to prevent debris from leaving the property and damaging other property.
As a Contractor, if you see something that looks off, you must contact the engineer of record or it's your ass.
Edit - Also engineers don't over-engineer things very often due to cost factors, so there is sometimes a relatively fine line between acceptable and not. Back in the day engineers would over design everything just to be cautious. Not so much anymore because things get expensive fast.
I always tell people that i can design a wooden outhouse that could withstand a Cat 5 hurricane. But do you have that kind of money? ;D
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I’ve never trusted buildings.I can’t stand being in anything higher than 3 stories.High up fuck the fall and low down fuck being crushed. I don’t trust anyone who built these things or the inspectors.money can bypass lots.
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I’ve never trusted buildings.I can’t stand being in anything higher than 3 stories.High up fuck the fall and low down fuck being crushed. I don’t trust anyone who built these things or the inspectors.money can bypass lots.
I've spent many years in Mexico, Venezuela and Thailand.
I wouldn't drive down a road in those countries. ;D
It's insane how corrupt they are.
7 years ago i was working on a bridge project in Venezuela. We designed it correctly, but the contractor was corrupt and was related to a politician. When they built the columns, foundations and spans for the bridge, they were half the strength of what we designed. The concrete mix they used was garbage and they removed half the steel.
So they got paid to build a solid structure, built something about half the strength and pocketed the money. They made millions. This is very common in Latin America.
In Mexico we did a highway project, the concrete was supposed to be 12" thick with 16" headers. They built it 6" thick with no headers. It buckled and failed 18 months later.
Lucky for us we were only responsible for design. What they built was not our responsibility.
I could go on and on.
But i will say in America, it's very rare these days for something to go the wrong direction, but it does happen.
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OVERLOAD, Thanks for the detailed response.
Let me add the following for general interest.
An elderly friend of mine who was a wealthy individual was involved with a company which was concerned about the Golden Gate Bridge and what would happen to it if the San Andreas did some major shaking.
Most San Andreas fault line maps show that the line runs almost directly beneath the bridge or just a few miles west of it, but I never did hear if they were successful in resolving the problem when (not if) the quake does occur .... but it is over-due and a major jolt is expected soon and I don't want to be on that bridge when it happens.
Are you aware if anything has been done to keep it from falling over since its original construction?
Final comment .... There is a very expensive high rise residential complex in San Fran where marbles roll off tables and down marble walkways because the building is leaning in the direction it should not.
It would be interesting to see how that problem is resolved.
Thanks again, Over.
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ROBO, Do NOT go to penthouse apartments when an earthquake occurs!
I was in one when a small earthquake shook Hawaii and it felt 10X worse than being on ground floor .... and very similar to being "flung" from a sling-shot from one side of the room to the other.
And don't get into falling elevators even if it only falls a few floors.
In other words ... Plan your day so this shit don't happen.
Take that from the voice of experience.
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OVERLOAD, Thanks for the detailed response.
Let me add the following for general interest.
An elderly friend of mine who was a wealthy individual was involved with a company which was concerned about the Golden Gate Bridge and what would happen to it if the San Andreas did some major shaking.
Most San Andreas fault line maps show that the line runs almost directly beneath the bridge or just a few miles west of it, but I never did hear if they were successful in resolving the problem when (not if) the quake does occur .... but it is over-due and a major jolt is expected soon and I don't want to be on that bridge when it happens.
Are you aware if anything has been done to keep it from falling over since its original construction?
Final comment .... There is a very expensive high rise residential complex in San Fran where marbles roll off tables and down marble walkways because the building is leaning in the direction it should not.
It would be interesting to see how that problem is resolved.
Thanks again, Over.
I know very little about the history of the bridge, but i know some about it's original construction. Seismic activity is very dynamic, it's hard to measure and hard to gauge what magnitude it will respond with when active. What i do know is that bridges of the same design method tend to survive earthquakes for the most part. The bridge towers have massive foundations. But the bridge itself is designed to move under seismic activity, meaning you don't want to be on it during an earthquake. You have probably seen videos of bridges flailing around wildly in extreme conditions, they are designed to do so.
The drive lanes will buckle and fail, like many other bridges have in California. But overall the bridge should remain somewhat in tact. Really hard to know since earthquakes are so unpredictable. Under a very large quake, the entire thing might collapse.
The more "rigid" an object is when elevated above the ground and supported by separate points, the faster it breaks under a certain load, as the entire structure can never move the exact same way at the same time. Having flexibility and movements allows these large structures to fail in certain places that can be repaired, rather than completely fail to rubble. Highway overpasses and bridges are the same way. Under heavy loads they shake a little, this is a good thing. When they fail it's almost always at the joints, which can be repaired easily.
It's hard to design for earthquakes and other extreme events. Sky scrapers and other large structures are built to move a little to prevent from failing. But it's not guaranteed. It all depends on how strong the quake is and most importantly, how long it lasts. Most large steel structures can withstand a non-catastrophic failure during a normal earthquake, they are designed with a certain safety factor and can move around a little.
The residential complex is interesting, it depends on how bad it is leaning. Is the entire building leaning a certain direction? When you have foundation failures it's normal to have certain degrees of lean that are considered normal. It really just depends on how much it is leaning and what type of foundation it has. A lot of old buildings have a small degree of lean to them due to settlement of soils or movement in the foundations. Very common in Houston where i'm from due to expansive soils.
It's hard to give much of a response without having some data, but generally there is an "acceptable" about of lean or tilt to a structure before it becomes dangerous.
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Final comment .... There is a very expensive high rise residential complex in San Fran where marbles roll off tables and down marble walkways because the building is leaning in the direction it should not.
It would be interesting to see how that problem is resolved.
Thanks again, Over.
Millennium Tower
Nov 1, 2016
SAN FRANCISCO (KRON) — A resident of San Francisco’s Millennium Tower posted a video last week of him rolling a marble to demonstrate that the building is leaning.
The video, posted by Frank Jernigan, shows the marble being rolled one way and then rolling backward to the wall.
Completed seven years ago, the tower so far has sunk 16 inches into the soft soil and landfill of San Francisco’s crowded financial district.
But it’s not sinking evenly, which has created a 2-inch tilt at the base — and a roughly 6-inch lean at the top.
The residents who shot the video said they were concerned about safety, especially if there is a large earthquake.
Millennium Partners, the developer, maintains its design is safe and says many San Francisco high-rises have similar foundations.
KRON4 is attempting to reach out to the developer to get its response.
https://www.kron4.com/news/video-resident-of-san-franciscos-millennium-tower-rolls-marble-to-demonstrate-building-is-leaning/
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After sinking 18 inches, SF's Millennium Tower finally has a fix
July 28, 2020
(https://s.hdnux.com/photos/01/13/22/55/19737456/3/2300x0.jpg)
San Francisco's beleaguered Millennium Tower is still sinking, but a fix is finally on the way.
The last inspection of the lopsided tower revealed the northwest corner descended at least 18 inches into the bay fill at Mission and Fremont streets, but a $100 million fix for the 645-foot-tall residential building will likely begin in the fall after years of planning, permits and numerous lawsuits.
The blue-gray glassy modernist tower, completed in 2009 at 301 Mission Street, is the tallest residential building in the city and won numerous engineering awards upon its construction.
Then, things started to go wrong.
The 58-story luxury high-rise was revealed to be ... tilting.
In May 2016 residents were informed that the main tower that housed their luxury condos was sinking. The foundation at 301 Mission was built into deep, dense sand but not bedrock, unlike most downtown towers. (Though many other large downtown buildings are also constructed in the same way including the Embarcadero Center, the SF MOMA, the Marriott and 101 California.)
The blame game and many, many lawsuits began.
The building's homeowners association sued the main contractor Webcor and the developer Millennium Partners. The city of San Francisco also filed suit against the tower's developers. The developer blamed the problem on the Transbay Joint Powers Authority, which was responsible for construction of the neighboring Transbay Transit Center. All suits were later consolidated into a global agreement that is expected to be finalized next month.
As of 2018 the sinking had increased to 18 inches with a lean of 14 inches.
Then came the cracking.
Residents reported hearing various "creaking sounds," and then a "popping sound" at around 2:30 a.m. on the morning of Sept. 8, 2018.
The following day, a resident living in a corner unit on the 36th floor found a cracked window across glass that was rated to withstand hurricane-force winds. Concerns that the creaking, popping and cracking were another symptom of the structural failure grew. A report conducted on behalf of the tower’s managers, blamed the crack on an “exterior impact,” but gave no indication as to what might have struck the window.
Later that year, a solution to the blighted building's tilt was finally proposed. Ronald O. Hamburger, the senior principal engineer at Simpson Gumpertz Heger, revealed a final resolution to the Millennium Tower's sinking problem that involves underpinning the building.
The solution, likened to putting a bumper jack next to a flat tire, will involve the installation of 52 piles along the north and west sides of the tower. The piles will be beneath the sidewalk, 250 feet into the bedrock of downtown San Francisco, and be tied with the original 60-90-feet-deep foundation piles.
The plan estimates that about 50% of the tilt will be evened out over a period of 10 years as the south and eastern sides of the building come back into re-alignment with the sunken north and western sides. The remaining south and eastern sides of the building will then be anchored to the bedrock, permanently resolving the problem.
The fix will cost about $100 million.
After two years of lengthy permitting and approval processes, construction should begin in mid-November, reports the Engineering News-Record.
“The city and state had a plethora of permit requirements for us,” Hamburger said.
Construction contracts are reportedly complete and the prime contractor is in the process of securing a insurance policy, but Hamburger did not reveal the contractor's name.
"With all of the above, we have been expecting a start date around mid-November," said Doug Elmets, a spokesman for the Millennium Tower Homeowners Association. "This could move up to October, if things move at a quicker pace."
Construction is estimated to take around two years.
https://www.sfgate.com/news/editorspicks/article/SF-s-sinking-Millenium-Tower-to-finally-get-fixed-15439863.php#
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After sinking 18 inches, SF's Millennium Tower finally has a fix
July 28, 2020
(https://s.hdnux.com/photos/01/13/22/55/19737456/3/2300x0.jpg)
San Francisco's beleaguered Millennium Tower is still sinking, but a fix is finally on the way.
The last inspection of the lopsided tower revealed the northwest corner descended at least 18 inches into the bay fill at Mission and Fremont streets, but a $100 million fix for the 645-foot-tall residential building will likely begin in the fall after years of planning, permits and numerous lawsuits.
The blue-gray glassy modernist tower, completed in 2009 at 301 Mission Street, is the tallest residential building in the city and won numerous engineering awards upon its construction.
Then, things started to go wrong.
The 58-story luxury high-rise was revealed to be ... tilting.
In May 2016 residents were informed that the main tower that housed their luxury condos was sinking. The foundation at 301 Mission was built into deep, dense sand but not bedrock, unlike most downtown towers. (Though many other large downtown buildings are also constructed in the same way including the Embarcadero Center, the SF MOMA, the Marriott and 101 California.)
The blame game and many, many lawsuits began.
The building's homeowners association sued the main contractor Webcor and the developer Millennium Partners. The city of San Francisco also filed suit against the tower's developers. The developer blamed the problem on the Transbay Joint Powers Authority, which was responsible for construction of the neighboring Transbay Transit Center. All suits were later consolidated into a global agreement that is expected to be finalized next month.
As of 2018 the sinking had increased to 18 inches with a lean of 14 inches.
Then came the cracking.
Residents reported hearing various "creaking sounds," and then a "popping sound" at around 2:30 a.m. on the morning of Sept. 8, 2018.
The following day, a resident living in a corner unit on the 36th floor found a cracked window across glass that was rated to withstand hurricane-force winds. Concerns that the creaking, popping and cracking were another symptom of the structural failure grew. A report conducted on behalf of the tower’s managers, blamed the crack on an “exterior impact,” but gave no indication as to what might have struck the window.
Later that year, a solution to the blighted building's tilt was finally proposed. Ronald O. Hamburger, the senior principal engineer at Simpson Gumpertz Heger, revealed a final resolution to the Millennium Tower's sinking problem that involves underpinning the building.
The solution, likened to putting a bumper jack next to a flat tire, will involve the installation of 52 piles along the north and west sides of the tower. The piles will be beneath the sidewalk, 250 feet into the bedrock of downtown San Francisco, and be tied with the original 60-90-feet-deep foundation piles.
The plan estimates that about 50% of the tilt will be evened out over a period of 10 years as the south and eastern sides of the building come back into re-alignment with the sunken north and western sides. The remaining south and eastern sides of the building will then be anchored to the bedrock, permanently resolving the problem.
The fix will cost about $100 million.
After two years of lengthy permitting and approval processes, construction should begin in mid-November, reports the Engineering News-Record.
“The city and state had a plethora of permit requirements for us,” Hamburger said.
Construction contracts are reportedly complete and the prime contractor is in the process of securing a insurance policy, but Hamburger did not reveal the contractor's name.
"With all of the above, we have been expecting a start date around mid-November," said Doug Elmets, a spokesman for the Millennium Tower Homeowners Association. "This could move up to October, if things move at a quicker pace."
Construction is estimated to take around two years.
https://www.sfgate.com/news/editorspicks/article/SF-s-sinking-Millenium-Tower-to-finally-get-fixed-15439863.php#
annnnnnnnnnddddddddd still standing
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After sinking 18 inches, SF's Millennium Tower finally has a fix
July 28, 2020
(https://s.hdnux.com/photos/01/13/22/55/19737456/3/2300x0.jpg)
San Francisco's beleaguered Millennium Tower is still sinking, but a fix is finally on the way.
The last inspection of the lopsided tower revealed the northwest corner descended at least 18 inches into the bay fill at Mission and Fremont streets, but a $100 million fix for the 645-foot-tall residential building will likely begin in the fall after years of planning, permits and numerous lawsuits.
The blue-gray glassy modernist tower, completed in 2009 at 301 Mission Street, is the tallest residential building in the city and won numerous engineering awards upon its construction.
Then, things started to go wrong.
The 58-story luxury high-rise was revealed to be ... tilting.
In May 2016 residents were informed that the main tower that housed their luxury condos was sinking. The foundation at 301 Mission was built into deep, dense sand but not bedrock, unlike most downtown towers. (Though many other large downtown buildings are also constructed in the same way including the Embarcadero Center, the SF MOMA, the Marriott and 101 California.)
The blame game and many, many lawsuits began.
The building's homeowners association sued the main contractor Webcor and the developer Millennium Partners. The city of San Francisco also filed suit against the tower's developers. The developer blamed the problem on the Transbay Joint Powers Authority, which was responsible for construction of the neighboring Transbay Transit Center. All suits were later consolidated into a global agreement that is expected to be finalized next month.
As of 2018 the sinking had increased to 18 inches with a lean of 14 inches.
Then came the cracking.
Residents reported hearing various "creaking sounds," and then a "popping sound" at around 2:30 a.m. on the morning of Sept. 8, 2018.
The following day, a resident living in a corner unit on the 36th floor found a cracked window across glass that was rated to withstand hurricane-force winds. Concerns that the creaking, popping and cracking were another symptom of the structural failure grew. A report conducted on behalf of the tower’s managers, blamed the crack on an “exterior impact,” but gave no indication as to what might have struck the window.
Later that year, a solution to the blighted building's tilt was finally proposed. Ronald O. Hamburger, the senior principal engineer at Simpson Gumpertz Heger, revealed a final resolution to the Millennium Tower's sinking problem that involves underpinning the building.
The solution, likened to putting a bumper jack next to a flat tire, will involve the installation of 52 piles along the north and west sides of the tower. The piles will be beneath the sidewalk, 250 feet into the bedrock of downtown San Francisco, and be tied with the original 60-90-feet-deep foundation piles.
The plan estimates that about 50% of the tilt will be evened out over a period of 10 years as the south and eastern sides of the building come back into re-alignment with the sunken north and western sides. The remaining south and eastern sides of the building will then be anchored to the bedrock, permanently resolving the problem.
The fix will cost about $100 million.
After two years of lengthy permitting and approval processes, construction should begin in mid-November, reports the Engineering News-Record.
“The city and state had a plethora of permit requirements for us,” Hamburger said.
Construction contracts are reportedly complete and the prime contractor is in the process of securing a insurance policy, but Hamburger did not reveal the contractor's name.
"With all of the above, we have been expecting a start date around mid-November," said Doug Elmets, a spokesman for the Millennium Tower Homeowners Association. "This could move up to October, if things move at a quicker pace."
Construction is estimated to take around two years.
https://www.sfgate.com/news/editorspicks/article/SF-s-sinking-Millenium-Tower-to-finally-get-fixed-15439863.php#
I remember watching this on 60 min or a show like that. That thing is sinking inches a year and the Florida one was millimeters so one would thing the same out come is more than possible. They are luxury condos a lot of affluent people bought like joe Montana for outrages amounts 20 million or more
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So I’m guessing we might see a lot of the sister building condos on the market soon?
Doesn’t look like any survivors have been found unfortunately.
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So I’m guessing we might see a lot of the sister building condos on the market soon?
Doesn’t look like any survivors have been found unfortunately.
If I’m in the sister condo I would have been gone already. What are they waiting for? More evidence? An order to evacuate? ::)
And who would move into or buy in the sister condo now? Might as well condemn the building… or make it a homeless shelter.
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If I’m in the sister condo I would have been gone already. What are they waiting for? More evidence? An order to evacuate? ::)
And who would move into or buy in the sister condo now? Might as well condemn the building… or make it an homeless expendables shelter.
fixed
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OVERLOAD, Two final questions for ya!
Is there a preferred computer app that can design a high rise apartment tower and then calculate the individual cost of everything item by item required within the construction of that tower .... to include doorknobs, windows, tubs, sinks, toilet, etc., etc.?
What are the estimated life-spans of high rise structures? Are the built to last forever?
Thanks, Over.
PS.... Thanks, Gregz! According to one San Franciscan .... They are presently working to correct the Millennium Tower situation
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No, rebar and concrete is how these structures and most others are made and have been made for decades.
It's cheap and effective.
You don't use wood for buildings that tall.
You don't use steel I beams either. Too expensive and zero value.
Would you say that this was a Brutalist building?
Is corroded rebar an inherent hazard in Brutalist building in general?
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I'm a Structural PE in 17 states.
There will be a forensic evaluation of the site to determine negligence on either the Engineer of Record or the Contractor (or Subs).
Going to be a few years in court.
I've been under evaluation before, turns out the Contractor messed up and built it wrong. There was a large concrete retaining wall next to a bridge that buckled after a heavy rain event. Contractor built it wrong and was held liable.
It's a terrible feeling.
I bet the Engineer for that structure design is drinking heavily today. ;D
If found negligent, the PE can lose his license for period of time or forever. They can also be criminally liable for any loss of life.
The cost of the failure will be covered by the Engineering/Construction company's insurance and is most like set certain min/max amount.
The builder died back in 2014.
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The builder died back in 2014.
He just collapsed and died?
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If I’m in the sister condo I would have been gone already. What are they waiting for? More evidence? An order to evacuate? ::)
And who would move into or buy in the sister condo now? Might as well condemn the building… or make it a homeless shelter.
Zero reason to believe this.
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The builder died back in 2014.
Still no 3 storeys mad huts in Naurobi, Kenya !.
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OVERLOAD, Two final questions for ya!
Is there a preferred computer app that can design a high rise apartment tower and then calculate the individual cost of everything item by item required within the construction of that tower .... to include doorknobs, windows, tubs, sinks, toilet, etc., etc.?
What are the estimated life-spans of high rise structures? Are the built to last forever?
Thanks, Over.
PS.... Thanks, Gregz! According to one San Franciscan .... They are presently working to correct the Millennium Tower situation
Most companies use Revit, for design purposes. Structural engineers all have their own preference on design software. Revit just ties it all together with the Architectural aspects, mechanical, electrical and plumbing, to ensure it all fits together and is used for cost estimating and construction feasibility. Every fixture is taken in account, it's used all over the world.
Most engineers i know use ETABS, SkyCiv or STAAD for the actual modeling and design. I always used STAAD because it's a required method for most bridge designs for government owned highways. I specialize in bridge and foundation design, have a good steel structure design background too, but i haven't done it in 15 years.
Nothing can last forever. The standard life span for a tall structure is 50 years. You can increase this with maintenance and structural reinforcements, but generally that is the case.
Nothing built by man will last too long, we use minimal materials and methods of construction. Basically, everything is "just good enough" and not necessary "robust". If we had an unlimited budget, of course we could make things last a few hundred years. All of our known design methods would have to change, but it is possible.
All buildings require scheduled maintenance and possible need of reinforcements along their lifespan, this is normal.
Again, everything is dynamic, it depends on the weather, soil type, construction type and height. Not all structures are built the same.
A small 3 story building with a solid foundation can easily last 200 years or more. As you get taller, things change, but it depends on how it's built and what it's built out of.
Reinforced concrete cracks and fails over time, but it's relatively cheap compared to steel frame. Steel will last much longer under all circumstances, but the increase in cost is insane. Most buildings are not cost effective when using steel, but the taller buildings do require it.
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Ancient walls of Dubrovnik still stands ............. :)
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Nothing can last forever. The standard life span for a tall structure is 50 years. You can increase this with maintenance and structural reinforcements, but generally that is the case.
Maybe we should start using Greek and Roman building methods haha
yes- I know it's not a high rise, but....
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Would you say that this was a Brutalist building?
Is corroded rebar an inherent hazard in Brutalist building in general?
It's not a brutalist.
A building with intentionally exposed areas will have extra reinforcing in other areas. Also it will be inspected regularly to ensure it does not deteriorate too quickly.
I worked on a "brutalist" type building about 12 years ago, it's not that much different, just more exposed and they don't spend money on anything fancy. Lots of exposed pipes, columns, electrical runs, mechanical areas, etc. I personally don't care for them, but they aren't engineered any differently.
Rebar corrodes over time. How fast depends on the weather and amount of exposure.
This is why you have to inspect the design elements often on all buildings. Rebar will not last forever.
I've seen a lot of old buildings and bridges where the rebar has already deteriorated from years of exposure, many times nearly failing. You can fix the area with additional reinforcing in most cases, but sometimes you have to remove a large area and replace it. This is all pretty normal in this industry.
I worked on some historical buildings, which i will never do again. It's basically cut to fit, paint to match engineering. Not my cup of tea. But it is possible to repair older buildings with better reinforcing, just takes a lot of money.
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Maybe we should start using Greek and Roman building methods haha
yes- I know it's not a high rise, but....
We do. ;)
They did a good job, we can easily make things last for hundreds of years if we had the money. The problem is these structures today need to be cost effective in order to make money for the owner.
I could design something out of high strength reinforced concrete that would last hundreds of years. But you can't spend $100 million on something that can normally be built with $5 million.
A lot of the structures that have lasted for so long were built with unlimited budges. No questions asked, just build the strongest thing on the planet.
We don't do that anymore. ;D
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Another thing to consider for building life span, are the rest of the components. It's not the structure that typically needs renovation. The mechanical, electrical, technology and plumbing components need to be upgraded regularly.
All this factors into the overall cost of the building and economics.
Structures can be built to last hundreds of years. But we don't mainly because it is often times cheaper to tear them down and replace them with something more current.
It's all about that money!
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A foriegn military can sift through our rubble and tell us what happened.
(https://i.postimg.cc/pTyJXbLV/E4-Tg-Wa-Xw-As-z-B7.jpg)
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Another thing to consider for building life span, are the rest of the components. It's not the structure that typically needs renovation. The mechanical, electrical, technology and plumbing components need to be upgraded regularly.
All this factors into the overall cost of the building and economics.
Structures can be built to last hundreds of years. But we don't mainly because it is often times cheaper to tear them down and replace them with something more current.
It's all about that money!
I totally agree with that! Modern day commercial buildings are cheap shit shells that are lucky to be around in 30 years.
The time frame for people has shrunk from 100's of years to months now. I don't think that's a good thing.
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The impression I'm getting from the facts slowly getting out is that this building was constantly flooded with seawater at the basement/parking garage levels. It was just a matter of time before the foundation gave way.
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A foriegn military can sift through our rubble and tell us what happened.
(https://i.postimg.cc/pTyJXbLV/E4-Tg-Wa-Xw-As-z-B7.jpg)
How embarassing :-\
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How embarassing :-\
Shouldn't feel that way. They have had plenty of experience because of the missile strikes and bombings.
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We do. ;)
They did a good job, we can easily make things last for hundreds of years if we had the money. The problem is these structures today need to be cost effective in order to make money for the owner.
I could design something out of high strength reinforced concrete that would last hundreds of years. But you can't spend $100 million on something that can normally be built with $5 million.
A lot of the structures that have lasted for so long were built with unlimited budges. No questions asked, just build the strongest thing on the planet.
We don't do that anymore. ;D
The ancient structures were built with unreinforced concrete, that's why they're still standing. steel reinforced concrete is good for maybe 100 years, usually less. The steel rebar rusts, expands, and causes spalling.
Maybe the microfiber concrete will be more durable, who knows. But if you wanna build concrete to last, don't make it steel reinforced
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The ancient structures were built with unreinforced concrete, that's why they're still standing. steel reinforced concrete is good for maybe 100 years, usually less. The steel rebar rusts, expands, and causes spalling.
Maybe the microfiber concrete will be more durable, who knows. But if you wanna build concrete to last, don't make it steel reinforced
Un-reinforced concrete might not be the best choice for buildings in areas prone to earthquakes.
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The ancient structures were built with unreinforced concrete, that's why they're still standing. steel reinforced concrete is good for maybe 100 years, usually less. The steel rebar rusts, expands, and causes spalling.
Maybe the microfiber concrete will be more durable, who knows. But if you wanna build concrete to last, don't make it steel reinforced
You can make steel reinforced concrete last a long time. It just requires a lot of steel and high quality cement.
There are newer options available now, but we aren't sure how long they will last.
Everything is about fast and cheap these days.
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You can make steel reinforced concrete last a long time. It just requires a lot of steel and high quality cement.
There are newer options available now, but we aren't sure how long they will last.
Everything is about fast and cheap these days.
That condo complex was built in 1981. Guess fast and cheap has been going on for awhile. My house was build in the late 70's....even then the quality of construction wasn't great. But lumber was cheap so there's a lot of it in this place.
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Building in North Miami Beach has been deemed unsafe and residents told to evacuate
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I was thinking of buying a Condo in the Pearl District. Guess I'll think again before making a big mistake.
Please. please reconsider
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Please. please reconsider
Not to worry, it was not a serious thought. I am happy with my current living arrangement. If I were to change anything about where I lived, I'd split my time between my home in West Linn and a place in the village where my son lives in Germany. Being near family is hugely important to me. My wife and I fantasized living carefree in a condo or townhouse when there we had each other. Living alone does not appeal to me except in those rare moments when I am pissed off with my family. All in all, I think I am extremely lucky to have the life I do and to live where I do.
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Living in certain parts of Florida at any time is a risk with hurricanes.
Your home could get wiped out every year.
People move down there from other places and usually ignore this possibility.
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Not to worry, it was not a serious thought. I am happy with my current living arrangement. If I were to change anything about where I lived, I'd split my time between my home in West Linn and a place in the village where my son lives in Germany. Being near family is hugely important to me. My wife and I fantasized living carefree in a condo or townhouse when there we had each other. Living alone does not appeal to me except in those rare moments when I am pissed off with my family. All in all, I think I am extremely lucky to have the life I do and to live where I do.
ANTIFA love your town too :D
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The ancient structures were built with unreinforced concrete, that's why they're still standing. steel reinforced concrete is good for maybe 100 years, usually less. The steel rebar rusts, expands, and causes spalling.
Maybe the microfiber concrete will be more durable, who knows. But if you wanna build concrete to last, don't make it steel reinforced
agreed steel creates space for the block to fail
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High rises need to sit on rock foundation . You dont need steel treated beams and plywood with screws lag bolts ect. You just put durock over it all and tile it
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High rises need to sit on rock foundation . You dont need steel treated beams and plywood with screws lag bolts ect. You just put durock over it all and tile it
;D
Put the pipe down son.
Do you know what would happen to a high rise on a rock foundation?
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;D
Put the pipe down son.
Do you know what would happen to a high rise on a rock foundation?
Aren't New York City buildings on bedrock?
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https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/03/us/florida-condo-collapse-steel-rebar.html
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/investigations/2021/07/03/condo-collapse-florida-residents-feared-flaws-original-design/7845170002/
Less steel in condo columns than called for in design?
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Aren't New York City buildings on bedrock?
Being built on bedrock and being built on rock are too completely different things.
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https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/03/us/florida-condo-collapse-steel-rebar.html
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/investigations/2021/07/03/condo-collapse-florida-residents-feared-flaws-original-design/7845170002/
Less steel in condo columns than called for in design?
Ouch!
Someone is in deep shit now. ;D
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Residents Told to Vacate Coral Springs Condominium After Building Deemed Unsafe
Residents of a Coral Springs condominium were ordered to evacuate Thursday after the building was deemed unsafe and failed to complete its 40-year inspection.
Tenants of the Villa Bianca Condominium, located at 3990 Woodside Drive, were told to evacuate by Aug. 5. The city is working with the Coral Springs Community Chest to provide temporary housing assistance, officials said.
Currently, 15 of the 16 units are occupied, and one unit has remained uninhabitable since a fire in 2014.
The Villa Bianca Condominium failed to meet the 40-year inspection, which was required in 2016, officials said in a news release. Photos that were shown to a code enforcement board showed deterioration to the roof.
Villa Bianca currently has no established condominium association, as required by state law.
https://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/residents-told-to-vacate-coral-springs-condominium-after-building-deemed-unsafe/2502462/?_osource=SocialFlowFB_MIBrand&fbclid=IwAR0iKUjOsfzOryDwylL1yXQAhHnQSaHJWYTfZYM5A5eeyFFxkUhbpPpfTTg
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Engineer hired by Surfside still feels that the Champlain Towers South is an imminent danger
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San Francisco skyscraper sinks further, halting renovation project
A major construction project aimed at leveling San Francisco's leaning Millennium Tower was abruptly halted this week after officials noticed the building sank another inch in the past month, CBS San Francisco reports.
Work began on the 58-story condo tower, which first made headlines in 2016, earlier this year. The project, expected to cost $100 million, involves reenforcing the foundation by drilling into bedrock below the tower and installing massive support beams, known as pilings, CBS San Francisco reported. The building had actually been sinking less in the past few years – but then began to sink again when work started earlier this year.
"The monitoring has indicated an increased rate of settlement associated with pile installation," Doug Elmets, spokesperson with the Millennium Tower Association, said in a statement to CBS San Francisco. "Out of an abundance of caution, we have placed a two to four-week moratorium on pile installation while we try to understand better the mechanisms associated with the increased settlement rate and available means of mitigating this."
"There has been no material harm to the building and it remains fully safe," he added.
Oakland consulting structural engineer David Williams told CBS San Francisco that the pause was a "no brainer" given the amount the building moved. He said the work has reactivated portions of the settlement below the building, causing it to tilt to one side.
"You may expect a little disturbance when you go in and do construction around it, but the rate of settlement is very severe," he said.
"The loads have to be distributed from the existing foundation out to the perimeter, and that's a pretty risky operation," he added. "It will have to be very carefully monitored if they proceed with it."
Millennium Tower first opened in 2009. By 2016, the building had sunk 16 inches. Satellite imagery from the European Space Agency showed the skyscraper in San Francisco's financial district was sinking at a steady rate.
Residents sued the developers and designers, and a settlement reached last year included the $100 million for the project.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/san-francisco-skyscraper-sinks-further-halting-renovation-project/ar-AANMSaN
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When Sacred Ground Is Also Multimillion-Dollar Real Estate
What to do with the site of the collapsed condo in Surfside, Fla.? There is no easy way to both honor victims and compensate condo owners.
by Patricia Mazzei
SURFSIDE, Fla. — Unbearable grief absorbed Anabella Levine when Champlain Towers South collapsed in Florida this summer, burying her beloved older brother and three cousins in the rubble of her building while she was away for the night. Identifying some of the remains took an excruciating 18 days.
What she did not expect — what has consumed many of her recent days, even as she struggles with her family’s enormous sorrow — was a fight with the town of Surfside, the beachfront enclave where she and her cousins spent some of their happiest childhood days.
Their fight is over the inevitable question that follows a tragedy that killed 98 people: What should be done with a place where such horror occurred? But unlike in other disasters, the land in Surfside is worth tens of millions of dollars and crucial to some survivors’ financial future.
Ms. Levine and her relatives, as well as other victims’ families, insist that the site must become, at least in part, a memorial to the dead, similar to the 9/11 Memorial in New York. Though the debris at Champlain Towers has long been cleared away, they feel that the ground where so many people died is sacred.
But the parcel at 8777 Collins Avenue is nearly two acres on the beach in South Florida, where waterfront property is scarce, developers drive the economy and the market for luxury condos promising a dream Florida lifestyle seems insatiable. For many of those who lived in the building and lost almost everything they owned, a lucrative real estate deal seems like the best hope for any substantial compensation.
The debate over the parcel’s fate has revealed conflicting interests between victims’ families, who lost people, and survivors, who lost property, in the June 24 collapse. And it has stirred raw feelings in and threatened to divide Surfside, a town of 6,000 with low-slung buildings and a recent history of resisting the aggressive redevelopment that has brought huge gleaming towers to the nearby towns of Miami Beach and Sunny Isles Beach.
“We all knew each other,” Ms. Levine said. “I see all the pictures of the people that died, and they’re all people that I saw in my pool. I know 98 people that died in just one day.”
At issue has been not only what will be built on the property but also how big it can be, as town leaders push to rewrite zoning laws and restrict the size of future construction. In the effort to make Champlain Towers residents financially whole, some see the influence of developers eyeing profits, as is so often the case in Florida.
The judge overseeing the many legal claims over the collapse has said that the sale of the land must happen, and quickly, to give Champlain Towers residents the biggest possible payout. A private bidder is willing to offer $120 million for the property, according to the court-appointed broker handling the real estate deal. Insurance could pay out another $48 million.
With the cause of the collapse still unknown — and no deep-pocketed third party to sue over it, at least not yet — Judge Michael A. Hanzman of the Circuit Court in Miami-Dade County has said the total fund will fall far short of adequate compensation. So many people died that local newspapers are still publishing their obituaries, three months later.
The judge has made it clear that any chance of turning the entire site into a public memorial, as some residents and community members had hoped, runs counter to financial reality. No local government could afford to buy the parcel at market price. Keeping even a portion for a memorial would require persuading a majority of Champlain Towers condo owners to accept a smaller payout — a sensitive request that could pit neighbors against one another.
The city of Miami Beach, which borders Surfside just south of where Champlain Towers South once stood, offered space for a memorial in a nearby park. But Ms. Levine, her relatives and other victims’ families who packed the Surfside Town Hall last week, said only one place will do: the spot where the building fell. A new glitzy high-rise there, they say, would be too much to bear.
Ms. Levine lost her brother, Andres Levine, 26; cousins Moises Rodan and Luis Sadovnic, both 28; and Mr. Sadovnic’s wife, Nicky Langesfeld, 26.
“I had my whole life shattered in a night,” Vicky Btesh, Ms. Levine’s sister-in-law, who became a widow as she was finalizing hotel reservations for her honeymoon, said through sobs. “Help us find a way so that I don’t have to drive by that place and see a building erasing what is the biggest tragedy of my entire life.”
Some residents have felt betrayed by politicians who in the days following the collapse promised lasting help. A few victims’ families have directed much of their anger at town commissioners who dismissed the idea of a land swap with Surfside’s community center, allowing developers to build a new high rise on the community center property and dedicating the Champlain Towers site for a new community center and a memorial.
Ms. Levine and other families suggested that would be a workable compromise. But Eliana R. Salzhauer, one of the commissioners, called the notion “delusional,” in part because the community center site, about five blocks north of Champlain Towers, is at the center of town and key to its quality of life.
During Tuesday’s commission meeting, which drew so many people that some had to watch from the lobby downstairs, the commissioner’s earlier comment enraged many of the families. But Ms. Salzhauer insisted that the ire against town officials was misplaced: Most commissioners want an on-site memorial, she said, but the town cannot afford the land, and the property’s fate is ultimately in the hands of condo owners and the court, not Surfside.
In any case, the community center should be off-limits, a majority of commissioners and a string of residents said.
In an interview, Ms. Salzhauer said lawyers in the Champlain Towers case — many of whom have represented developers in the past — are exploiting the pain of victims’ families and survivors with an eye on future real estate deals.
“This is the perfect storm of conflicts of interest, of South Florida corruption — from the day the building was built,” she said, referring to the turbulent origins of Champlain Towers, during which aggressive developers pushed through plans for the building, adding an extra penthouse story over the initial objections of the town. Investigations over issues such as land subsidence are continuing.
“The real issue is, why did the building collapse? It may turn out to be unbuildable. And should we be developing somewhere where it’s not sustainable in the first place?”
A big development proposed in town a few years ago caused such backlash that voters ousted most of the commissioners and approved rules to limit the sale of public land. The new commission has pursued a more restrictive zoning code, which drew little attention until it became evident that the changes could lower the value of the Champlain Towers land. This month, commissioners agreed to allow the same size development on the site as the building that fell.
Victims’ families and survivors have trudged to the Town Hall, attended court hearings on Zoom and commiserated in WhatsApp chats to navigate their new reality of anguish and displacement. Even the return of their recovered personal items seems far-off: The Miami-Dade Police Department will first need to decontaminate everything, from photos to jewelry to clothing, to get rid of asbestos — a process that could cost millions of dollars.
Many of those who lost their homes to the collapse still do not know where, when it is all over, they will be living. Most would like to come home. But in the end, it may be too expensive.
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This is very sad, but just because you lost family in the collapse doesn't mean you get to decide what happens to the site. You may want a permanent memorial on the site but other survivors want/need the site sold so they can be compensated and get on with their lives. Mourn those you lost... be glad you survived... take the compensation and move on. The truth is people die every day in all kinds of locations... even large numbers of people. If we create a memorial every time there are sizeable deaths pretty soon everywhere will become a memorial site. That's what cemeteries are for.
If you can't "bear" to drive by the site and see a newly constructed building there then don't drive by the site anymore. At $120 million, the small lot is simply too valuable for it NOT to be sold and developed. ::)
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This is very sad, but just because you lost family in the collapse doesn't mean you get to decide what happens to the site. You may want a permanent memorial on the site but other survivors want/need the site sold so they can be compensated and get on with their lives. Mourn those you lost... be glad you survived... take the compensation and move on. The truth is people die every day in all kinds of locations... even large numbers of people. If we create a memorial every time there are sizeable deaths pretty soon everywhere will become a memorial site. That's what cemeteries are for.
If you can't "bear" to drive by the site and see a newly constructed building there then don't drive by the site anymore. At $120 million, the small lot is simply too valuable for it NOT to be sold and developed. ::)
Very good post.
Today’s world seems like people believe they have a right to everything ‘they’ want. Look around and most are unhappy and angry despite having more say and rights than ever before.
The aim of life is to be happy. This includes dealing with tragic events and understanding you need to move on for your own mental health and those around you.
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The prospect of a speedy real estate deal compounds some Surfside families’ grief
by Lori Rozsa
SURFSIDE, Fla. — In contrast to the slow and agonizing effort to find victims of the Surfside condominium collapse, the process to sell the beachfront property so survivors and families of the dead can be compensated is proceeding fast — too fast for some people, who are seeking ways to memorialize 98 loved ones and neighbors.
Representatives of one potential buyer are scheduled to visit the two-acre site this week. A judge approved a $120 million sale agreement on Oct. 6 for East Oceanside, a subsidiary of billion-dollar developer DAMAC Properties, which is based in Dubai and trying to make its first real estate foray in the United States.
Other potential buyers can still make offers, which could compel an auction early next year.
“I’ve never seen anything move so quickly,” Surfside town commissioner Eliana Salzhauer said Friday. “Families need to be compensated, yes, but this isn’t giving us time to grieve and try to heal.”
The tension between compensating survivors who lost their homes and families whose relatives lost their lives is playing out in the community as well as in a Miami courtroom. Lawsuits were filed almost immediately after Champlain Towers South fell in the predawn hours of June 24, sheared in half for reasons that are still unknown. Miami-Dade County Circuit Judge Michael A. Hanzman held the first hearing the following week — even as rescue and then recovery teams were searching the site. Not until July 26 would the remains of the 98th victim finally be identified.
Hanzman, who has estimated that claims for losses could top $1 billion, made his priorities clear at the outset. While telling attorneys to be sensitive to the differences between “people who suffered injury and death and those who suffered only economically,” he said it is “this court’s duty to move these cases with dispatch.”
He has even admonished families who have spoken out about wanting a memorial on the site. Those comments, the judge said, only serve to “bring down the value and bring less money for the victims to be compensated.”
“The property will be sold,” Hanzman said at a hearing in late September. “It is going to be sold for the most money that can be achieved. . . . [It] is not being donated by those victims for the public good, whether it be for a memorial or any other public purpose.”
Hanzman has already accepted a $95 million appraisal of the 136-unit condominium — the price it ostensibly could have fetched the day before the disaster. He has not announced how proceeds of a sale will be divided between property owners and victims’ families.
The site is now a murky lagoon with a few truncated concrete posts and rusting rebar visible. Since Miami-Dade County stopped paying a contractor $6,000 a day to run pumps, nearly two feet of tidal water and rain have filled what once was Champlain Towers South’s garage space. Town officials and some families say human remains are probably buried in the sand.
“There’s apparently water coming in from everywhere,” Salzhauer said. “It’s mind-boggling that somebody would want to build there before we even know if that’s viable.”
The town has been largely cut out of what’s expected to be a years-long federal probe into what caused the catastrophe. The structural engineer it hired repeatedly has been denied access to the site by Miami-Dade County, which considers 8777 Collins Ave. to be a crime scene.
Allyn Kilsheimer — who investigated the Pentagon’s damage after 9/11 and the Oklahoma City federal building’s destruction after a 1995 bombing — may at last be permitted onto the condo site this week to run tests and soundings with his team, according to town officials.
“It’s a great concern that there’s been a loss of focus with respect to the urgent need to find out why the building fell down,” Surfside Mayor Charles Burkett said Friday. “Instead, the focus has turned to selling the property.”
As that moves forward, he and other local leaders are grappling with the emotionally charged question of what should be erected to mark the tragedy and where it should go. Some families have appealed for state and federal funding to help purchase even a fraction of their ground zero for a memorial. The mayor has consulted with former New York governor George E. Pataki, who oversaw the construction of the 9/11 memorial where the World Trade Center had stood.
“He believes that [Surfside’s] memorial should be on the site just like it was in New York, and I told him I felt the same way,” Burkett said.
Yet there’s little consensus among survivors or families whose relatives died. Many remain as concerned about what might still be found in the more than 12,000 tons of debris collected in the aftermath and hauled 14 miles away to a vacant lot near Miami International Airport.
The county invited them this month to visit the lot, which is surrounded by fencing and no-trespassing signs. About 20 people showed up to observe workers sifting through the huge piles of gravel, rebar, mattress pads, clothing and other remnants of lives.
Pablo Langesfeld, whose daughter Nicole, and her newlywed husband, Luis Sadovnic, were killed, never got the invitation. He has gone there on his own, though, and has been distressed to see machinery rolling over the wreckage.
“I know that part of my daughter is in that mountain,” Langesfeld said last week. “To see a bulldozer run over it, it’s like putting more pain into the pain. We want our loved ones to be treated with respect, to be remembered and treated with respect.”
Other debris waits in an area warehouse, including 17 safes that were pulled intact from the condo site. Attorney Michael Goldberg, the court-appointed receiver for the Champlain Towers South Condominium Association, recently told Hanzman that he will have a locksmith try to open each safe in hopes of returning the contents to families. He intends to have any photos carefully cleaned, scanned and posted on a website for relatives to identify.
Individuals who lived at Champlain Towers South have until midnight on Nov. 30 to submit claims for money gleaned from the site. More than $750,000 in “loose cash” was found by recovery teams and other workers in the remnants of the condominium building, Goldberg said. Some was in wallets and purses, but most was just random wads of bills.
The money soon will be taken by armored truck to the U.S. Treasury Department in Washington for asbestos decontamination.
“I have had people submit to me several claims of cash ranging from $4,500 to $130,000,” Goldberg said. “We are, I expect, going to have claims for cash that far exceed the amount of cash coming back.”
He assured the judge that he and his team of attorneys were moving along as fast as possible. Rabbi Lisa Shrem of New York asked him to slow it down.
“I myself am a victim. My best friend, my sister, was the last victim. Number 98, Estelle Hedaya, found on the 33rd day,” Shrem explained to Hanzman via Zoom. She called the site of the collapse “sacred land” and said she’d only received “a quarter of a forearm bone to bury.”
“Please, I beg of you, just allow us some time,” Shrem said. “We were last into these court proceedings because we were burying, we were at wakes and shivas. . . . Please, just a small amount of time, that’s all we ask.”
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This is very sad, but just because you lost family in the collapse doesn't mean you get to decide what happens to the site. You may want a permanent memorial on the site but other survivors want/need the site sold so they can be compensated and get on with their lives. Mourn those you lost... be glad you survived... take the compensation and move on. The truth is people die every day in all kinds of locations... even large numbers of people. If we create a memorial every time there are sizeable deaths pretty soon everywhere will become a memorial site. That's what cemeteries are for.
If you can't "bear" to drive by the site and see a newly constructed building there then don't drive by the site anymore. At $120 million, the small lot is simply too valuable for it NOT to be sold and developed. ::)
Agreed. Put a bronze plaque in the sidewalk and call it good.
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Agreed. Put a bronze plaque in the sidewalk and call it good.
Yup!
Just like all the people who die on highways.
Put a nice little plastic cross on the side of the road and move on with your life.
Nobody cares.
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Condo collapse imo -- https://twitter.com/officialmcafee/status/1137777348919681024?s=20
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Agreed. Put a bronze plaque in the sidewalk and call it good.
Yeah no shit. Sad they died but they should get the most money they can for it. $150 million with sale and insurance? Take it and disperse it to the victims, owners and families.
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So much of what's built in Florida is on swamp. Houses sinking is common. You can't get sink hole insurance for many areas. Many areas if you dig down you hit water fast.
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SF Millennium Tower Tilts Quarter Inch in Four Days
Newly released monitoring data shows that San Francisco’s Millennium Tower tilted a quarter inch during the four days it took to install the first test pile to bedrock last month.
The monitoring data tracks settlement, tilting and water pressure levels underneath the sinking and leaning structure since work began on a fix for the troubled tower in May. Since work began to shore the sinking structure up on the north and west sides, the building has settled nearly 2 inches at the northwest corner and is now tilting more than two feet at that edge.
The latest data – including the four days that the test pile was installed from Nov. 15 to Nov. 19 – shows a quarter inch of new tilt, as well as a tenth of an inch of settlement at the time the test installation occurred. At the same time, there was marked fluctuation of water pressure below the foundation on the Mission Street side of the structure.
The water pressure level was recorded at various depths more than 100 feet below the structure, where a layer of clay resides.
Veteran geotechnical engineer Bob Pyke said the sudden fluctuation is a telltale sign.
“This is a large drop -- you can't see the scale on this plot -- but this is a pretty dramatic effect” he said, pointing to the monitoring data chart that tracks the water pressure levels more than 100 feet below the building. While the data shows plunging pressure level quickly came back up, Pyke said the brief loss would likely generate settlement.
Pyke suspects that the drilling method used to remove soil and water from the bottom of the hole is to blame.
“It's no different from sucking a straw into a milkshake,” Pyke said, noting that removal method involves using suction, essentially vacuuming up water and debris from the bottom of the shaft being drilled. He says the sucking process is likely stressing larger areas of the Old Bay Clay layer under the building’s existing foundation.
He noted that while the pressure recovered on the Mission Street side, it did not return to previous levels under other parts of the foundation. Triggering accelerated settlement across other parts of the foundation of the building.
Other experts say the water pressure drop is evidence that the method designed to limit settlement may not be working as well as hoped.
“You can accidentally remove soil that you want to stay in place,” said Rune Storesund, a geotechnical engineer who runs UC Berkeley’s Center for Catastrophic Risk Management. He says the water pressure data suggests engineers could clearly do more to refine their methods. “You’re always going to get settlement, obviously you want that to be as low as possible.”
Still, Ron Hamburger, the fix designer, recently assured city officials that the settlement that has occurred during testing of new methods designed to limit sinking is within expected levels. Hamburger now has city permission to install two more test piles. Hamburger told city officials the additional testing is needed to help determine just how many piles will ultimately be used to shore up the structure.
https://www.nbcbayarea.com/investigations/sf-millennium-tower-tilts-quarter-inch-in-four-days/2750189/
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SF Millennium Tower Tilts Quarter Inch in Four Days
Newly released monitoring data shows that San Francisco’s Millennium Tower tilted a quarter inch during the four days it took to install the first test pile to bedrock last month.
The monitoring data tracks settlement, tilting and water pressure levels underneath the sinking and leaning structure since work began on a fix for the troubled tower in May. Since work began to shore the sinking structure up on the north and west sides, the building has settled nearly 2 inches at the northwest corner and is now tilting more than two feet at that edge.
The latest data – including the four days that the test pile was installed from Nov. 15 to Nov. 19 – shows a quarter inch of new tilt, as well as a tenth of an inch of settlement at the time the test installation occurred. At the same time, there was marked fluctuation of water pressure below the foundation on the Mission Street side of the structure.
The water pressure level was recorded at various depths more than 100 feet below the structure, where a layer of clay resides.
Veteran geotechnical engineer Bob Pyke said the sudden fluctuation is a telltale sign.
“This is a large drop -- you can't see the scale on this plot -- but this is a pretty dramatic effect” he said, pointing to the monitoring data chart that tracks the water pressure levels more than 100 feet below the building. While the data shows plunging pressure level quickly came back up, Pyke said the brief loss would likely generate settlement.
Pyke suspects that the drilling method used to remove soil and water from the bottom of the hole is to blame.
“It's no different from sucking a straw into a milkshake,” Pyke said, noting that removal method involves using suction, essentially vacuuming up water and debris from the bottom of the shaft being drilled. He says the sucking process is likely stressing larger areas of the Old Bay Clay layer under the building’s existing foundation.
He noted that while the pressure recovered on the Mission Street side, it did not return to previous levels under other parts of the foundation. Triggering accelerated settlement across other parts of the foundation of the building.
Other experts say the water pressure drop is evidence that the method designed to limit settlement may not be working as well as hoped.
“You can accidentally remove soil that you want to stay in place,” said Rune Storesund, a geotechnical engineer who runs UC Berkeley’s Center for Catastrophic Risk Management. He says the water pressure data suggests engineers could clearly do more to refine their methods. “You’re always going to get settlement, obviously you want that to be as low as possible.”
Still, Ron Hamburger, the fix designer, recently assured city officials that the settlement that has occurred during testing of new methods designed to limit sinking is within expected levels. Hamburger now has city permission to install two more test piles. Hamburger told city officials the additional testing is needed to help determine just how many piles will ultimately be used to shore up the structure.
https://www.nbcbayarea.com/investigations/sf-millennium-tower-tilts-quarter-inch-in-four-days/2750189/
Very common.
Just became a larger issue due to the high amount of liquid and clay beneath the foundation.
Should be interesting to see how this plays out.
Engineering foundations on soils like this is a nightmare. I had the same problem designing a small 3 story office building near Galveston, Texas. Shit soil with high amounts of liquid and it's like a "milkshake" theory.
I'd like to know how deep those shafts went, i'm assuming pretty deep for a structure like that.
It's going to take a lot of piles to stabilize this mess.
I bet this gets documented and used in University one day.
The stuff they had when i was in college was pretty sparse.
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Engineer overseeing the luxury tower’s retrofit discovered the space between it and a smaller building had widened by an inch
San Francisco’s troubled Millennium Tower, which has continued to sink despite multimillion-dollar efforts to correct it, has developed yet another problem.
The luxury tower, popular among star athletes and retired Google employees before the tilting issues were widely publicized, has sunk 18in since construction was completed in 2009, and has a 26in tilt at the top. Now, the engineer overseeing the retrofit of the tower has said the movement caused the formation of a one-inch gap between the building and a smaller 12-storey adjacent structure.
“Given the present westward tilt of the building, about 24 inches as measured at the roof, the gap between the two buildings in the east-west direction has widened by about 1 inch[2.5cm],” the project engineer, Ron Hamburger, said in a statement to NBC Bay Area.
The Millennium Tower uses an underground parking garage housed within the smaller structure.
Despite the gap, engineers “determined that the building is not at risk due to this movement, or any movement likely to occur before construction completion”, Hamburger said, and the gap is not expected to worsen. He has previously warned that the tower’s elevators and plumbing may no longer work if sinking continues at its current rate.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/feb/25/inch-san-francisco-millennium-tower
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Engineer overseeing the luxury tower’s retrofit discovered the space between it and a smaller building had widened by an inch
San Francisco’s troubled Millennium Tower, which has continued to sink despite multimillion-dollar efforts to correct it, has developed yet another problem.
The luxury tower, popular among star athletes and retired Google employees before the tilting issues were widely publicized, has sunk 18in since construction was completed in 2009, and has a 26in tilt at the top. Now, the engineer overseeing the retrofit of the tower has said the movement caused the formation of a one-inch gap between the building and a smaller 12-storey adjacent structure.
“Given the present westward tilt of the building, about 24 inches as measured at the roof, the gap between the two buildings in the east-west direction has widened by about 1 inch[2.5cm],” the project engineer, Ron Hamburger, said in a statement to NBC Bay Area.
The Millennium Tower uses an underground parking garage housed within the smaller structure.
Despite the gap, engineers “determined that the building is not at risk due to this movement, or any movement likely to occur before construction completion”, Hamburger said, and the gap is not expected to worsen. He has previously warned that the tower’s elevators and plumbing may no longer work if sinking continues at its current rate.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/feb/25/inch-san-francisco-millennium-tower
It seems these engineers are trustworthy.
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The Fight to Fix the Tilting Millennium Tower
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looks like flashes going off before collspse
controlled demo
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Tilting Millennium Tower fix will cost taxpayers $30 million
https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/philmatier/article/Tilting-Millennium-Tower-fix-will-cost-taxpayers-15662664.php
Settlement of nine lawsuits involving more than 400 individual parties was nailed down in August 2019, and its total size, which is much larger than the public’s $30 million share, is being held in confidence.
The overall settlement includes the $100 million fix for the tilting, 58-story high-rise at 301 Mission Street that opened in 2009, plus millions of dollars in reimbursements to luxury condominium owners whose property values plummeted as a result of the tilting. The repair project calls for 52 piles to be drilled 250 feet down into bedrock to shore up the building — which now sits on 950 reinforced concrete piles driven up to 90 feet deep into bay mud.
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Getbigger for sure.
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New problem at San Francisco's still-sinking Millennium Tower means it may be forever tilting
The seemingly unending saga of San Francisco's lopsided luxury skyscraper, the Millennium Tower, may have hit another wall this week, literally.
An underground shoring wall buried deep in the SoMa soil is threatening to hinder the $100 million dollar effort to right the sinking property, marking the latest problem in the beleaguered fix on the tower. That fix, termed the perimeter pile upgrade (PPU), began work last year.
The PPU seeks to halt sinking on the north and west sides of the building through the installation of piles into the bedrock, and subsequently shift weight toward the opposite corner and eventually reverse the tilt, now measured at a significant 28 inches, reported NBC News.
But the presence of a 3-foot-thick, 90-foot-tall steel and cement underground wall — installed as part of an earth retention system during the original tower build to enable construction of the five-story-deep parking garage next door — may scupper that plan, according to experts.
“It just creates a huge amount more uncertainty about how it will respond when you implement the PPU fix,” deep foundation expert David Williams told NBC. “There are a lot of concerns that it may be hung up on that shoring wall.”
In 2019, chief engineer Ronald Hamburger of engineering firm Simpson Gumpertz & Heger, which is leading the work, said that the reverse tilting required to level the building will not be hindered by the wall, and that as the weight shifted to the east, the entire wall would sink into the clay.
(https://s.hdnux.com/photos/01/25/62/32/22488714/3/rawImage.jpg)
Hamburger told SFGATE via email on Tuesday that the shoring wall is no surprise. "We have been aware of this wall’s presence since our earliest project involvement in 2014," he said.
He added that analysis of the foundation showed that "within about a year of completion of the upgrade project, the northwest building corner will recover about 1-1/2 inches of the past settlement," and that the building should recover around 3 or 4 inches on the north and west sides and continue to level out in "small amounts" over the next 40 years.
Hamburger also contested NBC's reporting that the building is currently at a 28-inch tilt. "Presently, the building tilts about 25-1/2 inches to the west and 8-1/2 inches to the north, as measured at the roof," Hamburger said via email.
"Almost certainly he is wrong — no one knows what will actually happen," Bay Area geotechnical engineer Bob Pyke said of Hamburger's 2019 assessment, via email, "He was, as usual, guilty of wishful thinking rather than carefully looking into the details."
Pyke, who is not associated with the Millennium Tower project, said he believes it's time that someone else should step in. "But his ego and the firm’s potential liability will not allow that. He has to keep on bluffing," Pyke said. "The [San Francisco Department of Building Inspection] should withdraw the permit and put him/them out of their misery."
While maintaining that the tower is safe, Hamburger did voice some urgency regarding the fix earlier this year, telling the SF Government Audit and Oversight Committee, “Although the building remains safe, we believe the project needs to resume construction and complete this construction quickly.”
The PPU has been blighted by problems since work commenced in 2021.
The $100 million fix involved installing 52 piles 250 feet deep into the bedrock along the sinking north and west sides of the luxury building. But in September 2021 work was abruptly halted after the tower sank another inch over a matter of weeks due to the construction causing an "unintentional removal of excess soil as the piles were installed," a letter from Hamburger to the homeowners revealed. Some experts said the pause in work came months too late.
"That moratorium has been effective in halting the construction-related settlement and tilting," Hamburger told SFGATE at the time. "We are presently working to develop modified construction methods so that construction can safely proceed."
When an engineering report revealed that the pause in construction also stopped any further sinking, the Department of Building Inspection pleaded with the engineers not to restart work. "In the interest of all involved, please refrain from resuming construction," DBI's interim director wrote in a letter to the tower's general manager.
Then in January 2022, a revised plan, with a drastically reduced scope, was landed on. The new fix involves a big reduction in the number of piles to be installed into the shifting soil at 301 Mission — 18 to 24 new piles were to be installed, as opposed to the initial plan for 52.
The fix, according to Hamburger, was a voluntary retrofit intended to speed the settling along and bring an end to what has now been 7 years of uncertainty — and diminishing property values — for residents. An estimated condo value for one 1,246-square-foot unit in the building peaked at $2 million in 2016 before the sinking was reported; today one 1,517-square-foot unit is on the market for $1.35 million, and has already taken a price cut, as some refer to the building as the "Leaning Tower of Soma."
The tower's woes date back to 2016, seven years after its construction, when the tilting was first reported to the shock of residents. This led to a blame game and years of lawsuits, as the tower continued to sink toward the Mission and Fremont intersection.
Hamburger and Simpson Gumpertz & Heger were approved to lead the fix in 2018.
https://www.sfgate.com/local/article/new-problem-at-SF-sinking-tower-17179301.php
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SF Millennium Tower Tilts Quarter Inch in Four Days
Newly released monitoring data shows that San Francisco’s Millennium Tower tilted a quarter inch during the four days it took to install the first test pile to bedrock last month.
The monitoring data tracks settlement, tilting and water pressure levels underneath the sinking and leaning structure since work began on a fix for the troubled tower in May. Since work began to shore the sinking structure up on the north and west sides, the building has settled nearly 2 inches at the northwest corner and is now tilting more than two feet at that edge.
The latest data – including the four days that the test pile was installed from Nov. 15 to Nov. 19 – shows a quarter inch of new tilt, as well as a tenth of an inch of settlement at the time the test installation occurred. At the same time, there was marked fluctuation of water pressure below the foundation on the Mission Street side of the structure.
The water pressure level was recorded at various depths more than 100 feet below the structure, where a layer of clay resides.
Veteran geotechnical engineer Bob Pyke said the sudden fluctuation is a telltale sign.
“This is a large drop -- you can't see the scale on this plot -- but this is a pretty dramatic effect” he said, pointing to the monitoring data chart that tracks the water pressure levels more than 100 feet below the building. While the data shows plunging pressure level quickly came back up, Pyke said the brief loss would likely generate settlement.
Pyke suspects that the drilling method used to remove soil and water from the bottom of the hole is to blame.
“It's no different from sucking a straw into a milkshake,” Pyke said, noting that removal method involves using suction, essentially vacuuming up water and debris from the bottom of the shaft being drilled. He says the sucking process is likely stressing larger areas of the Old Bay Clay layer under the building’s existing foundation.
He noted that while the pressure recovered on the Mission Street side, it did not return to previous levels under other parts of the foundation. Triggering accelerated settlement across other parts of the foundation of the building.
Other experts say the water pressure drop is evidence that the method designed to limit settlement may not be working as well as hoped.
“You can accidentally remove soil that you want to stay in place,” said Rune Storesund, a geotechnical engineer who runs UC Berkeley’s Center for Catastrophic Risk Management. He says the water pressure data suggests engineers could clearly do more to refine their methods. “You’re always going to get settlement, obviously you want that to be as low as possible.”
Still, Ron Hamburger, the fix designer, recently assured city officials that the settlement that has occurred during testing of new methods designed to limit sinking is within expected levels. Hamburger now has city permission to install two more test piles. Hamburger told city officials the additional testing is needed to help determine just how many piles will ultimately be used to shore up the structure.
https://www.nbcbayarea.com/investigations/sf-millennium-tower-tilts-quarter-inch-in-four-days/2750189/
What’s the problem?
It’s leaning left
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New Tilting Prompts Revamp of San Francisco's Millennium Tower Fix
“There's no question that the fix has made things worse,” said Bob Pyke, a veteran geotechnical engineer who has advised Caltrans and federal agencies on large construction projects. He said that tilting was the side-effect of the digging needed to erect the planned underground shoring wall on the west side of the foundation. Like the digging last year to install foundation piles to bedrock, any disturbance from construction can displace dirt that had been acting as a buttress against the tower’s foundation, Pyke says.
“This ground loss simply allows the building to push outward in the westerly direction where they're working along Fremont Street,” he said. “It's similar to but a different mechanism in detail from what caused the settlement during the installation of the casings in the piles.”
San Francisco building officials say they have been consulted on the changes, but stress that Millennium engineers are solely responsible for the outcome.
As it stands, with the additional tilting since work on the underground wall along Fremont started in May, the tower is now leaning at least 29 inches at the top at the northwest corner.
That leaves a shrinking margin for error, given Hamburger’s caution that the tower’s safety systems -- like elevators and sewage lines -- could stop working should the tower lean 40 inches or more.
https://www.nbcbayarea.com/investigation/millennium-tower-tiling-fix/2945803/
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Should just call it a loss at this point.
The building officials aren't responsible for fixing this mess.
Tear it down and start the lawsuit process.
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The Construction Method That Can Prevent Skyscrapers From Sinking
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^That is the ugliest building.
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SF's Millennium Tower now tilting more than ever to the west after early recovery
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Two years after Surfside collapse, a bitter feud over the oceanfront land
by Tim Craig
SURFSIDE, Fla. — On a lot scarred by the memories of 98 people who died here two years ago, developers are hopeful a new luxury oceanfront 12-story condominium building could soon rise.
The building, designed by a world-renowned architectural firm, will be constructed of glass fiber reinforced concrete and was partially inspired by one of South Florida’s most recognizable skyscrapers. As described by Dubai-based developer DAMAC International, 57 homeowners will live in a building that includes “soft, cloud-like elements” and a “facade that echo[es] the colors and textures of sand” as its stands over a pristine beach.
But as the replacement for the Champlain Towers South condominium building progresses, the project is caught up in an bitterly personal debate over whether the 1.8-acre lot should also include space for a memorial to those killed in one of the nation’s most horrific building failures. Nearly two years ago, the condo collapsed as most residents were asleep in their beds, leading to an anguishing search-and-recovery mission and, eventually, the demolition of what was left standing.
To family members who believe tiny remnants of their loved ones could still be lying undetected in crevices around the site, as well as in the ocean breezes that sweep across it each day, the proposal for a new building is the latest insult in a flawed and rushed redevelopment project.
To truly honor the dead, they say, the millionaires who will call the building home should have to share the high-priced strip of land with those who never got a chance to leave the location on June 24, 2021.
“I lost my sister and my brother-in-law, and we received just 1 percent of my brother-in-law and 33 percent of my sister,” said Martin Langesfeld, who was referring to his sister, Nicole Langesfeld, and her husband, Luis Sadovnic. “We can work together and incorporate a memorial on the site, and they can still build their ultra-luxurious apartments. But we don’t build over dead bodies in America.”
The emotional debate, which includes some family members of the victims of the 9/11 terrorist attack on the World Trade Center in New York, is now dominating town meetings here in Surfside while serving as yet another test of how the nation recognizes grief and memorializes victims of tragedies.
From mass shooting scenes and the locations of deadly natural disasters, to newly discovered, centuries-old cemeteries, the question of what should come next has been vexing officials and developers for generations. Although some locations of mass death are ultimately preserved as memorials or historical markings, others have been rebuilt or repurposed as land values soar and communities seek ways to move beyond grief.
Shlomo Danzinger, the mayor of Surfside, said the city does not own the lot of Champlain Towers South and cannot dictate how it will be rebuilt. He also notes that Surfside is planning to build a permanent memorial to the victims of the collapse, on part of a public street that lies just a few yards from the footprint of the old building.
“You keep asking for something we can’t provide,” Danzinger told Langesfeld and other speakers who showed up at a town commission meeting on June 13 to protest the plans. “It’s not our property. … We cannot get you on the property.”
The developer, for its part, contends the new building will “add meaningful value to the beachside haven that is Surfside — and indeed, all of Miami.”
“We know we can never replace what was so painfully lost in Surfside and no single entity can ever do justice to a community’s memory,” said Niall Mc Loughlin, senior vice president of communications for DAMAC.
Within six months of the building’s collapse, the debris was cleaned up and transferred to a vacant lot in a western Miami suburb, even as the medical examiner continued identifying remains of the victims. Today, the footprint of the building includes the stub of former support beams and the buzz of water pumps that continually work to remove water from the site’s foundation.
As part of a $1.2 billion settlement to victims and survivors, the building’s lot was sold at auction last summer. There was only one bidder, DAMAC, which purchased the land for $120 million.
DAMAC hired Zaha Hadid Architects, a British firm founded by the late Zaha Hadid, to design the new condominium building on the site. Zaha Hadid, who died in 2016, had designed some of the world’s most breathtaking structures, including the 62-story One Thousand Museum residential building in downtown Miami.
Chris Lepine, director of Zaha Hadid Architects, conceded that the Champlain Towers South lot is “a charged site” but said his firm worked hard to “design the best possible” building to reflect its history.
“I think with such an important site, we do feel a responsibility to put in our best work, and our best efforts,” said Lepine, who added his firm and DAMAC strove to achieve “the best possible outcome architecturally for the site.”
Lepine said his firm has submitted two proposals for the property, mostly differing on setback and the vertical schemes. The units in the building will range from 4,000 to 12,000 square feet — easily making even the smallest residence a multimillion-dollar condominium in South Florida’s hot luxury-property market.
Lisa Shrem, 56, lost her best friend, Estelle Hedaya, who was 54, in the building collapse and now questions why she will not be able to visit with her on the site where she lost her life. Shrem said Hedaya and other victims’ “bones turned to dust” during the collapse, effectively turning it into a gravesite that should hold a memorial.
“It’s painful to see another building where people are going to live put on that site, for many, many reasons,” said Shrem, who added that just a few weeks ago Hedaya’s family received additional remains of her body from the Miami-Dade medical examiner’s office. “Plans for the new building are beautiful — it’s a beautiful building — but it just feels like it will erase everything that happened there.”
Monica Iken, who lost her husband on 9/11 and is the founder of September’s Mission, has joined Surfside family members in advocating for a memorial to be incorporated into the plans for the new condominium building. Iken noted family members of 9/11 victims also initially had to fight back against plans to build the National September 11 Memorial Museum in a location other than the footprint of the World Trade Center.
“The developer has 1.88 acres. You could give the families 0.44 acres for a memorial,” Iken said. “You could make it a garden space. We are not asking for a big memorial. We are just asking for a piece of land so you are not building over the dead souls that are there.”
The portion of the Champlain Towers South that collapsed, creating a mound of debris where most of the victims were found, roughly equals 0.44 acres. The Miami-Dade medical examiner’s office did not respond to a phone call seeking comment on whether any human remains could still theoretically be on the cleaned-up disaster site.
Mc Loughlin, from DAMAC, said the decision against putting a memorial on the site was effectively made by the judge who decided to auction the land as part of the settlement. The judge, Mc Loughlin added, “wanted the sale to benefit those who suffered the most.”
Throughout South Florida, news that a luxury condominium building will eventually be built on the site has prompted one nagging question: Who would want to live there?
Mc Loughlin said the company believes the project will attract “affluent families from around the USA and globally” including “entrepreneurs, celebrities, and other leading families from around the world.”
Carlos Marquez, a Miami real estate broker and agent, said he doubts DAMAC will have trouble finding buyers.
“Everything sells here,” said Marquez, who expects there could especially be interest from foreign buyers who have less knowledge about the Champlain Towers South disaster. “People often don’t know the history of what happened in some of these other [South Florida] buildings. … Yes, it will be sad for some people. But for other people, it will be a nice, beautiful building next to the beach.”
In Surfside, where Marquez said two-bedroom units at another luxury condominium next to the Champlain Towers South footprint are currently valued at about $1,600 per square foot, the debate over the location of the memorial is swept up in a larger political feud over Danzinger’s leadership and relationship with DAMAC.
Last October, during a trip to the Middle East as his son was beginning service in the Israel Defense Forces, Danzinger traveled to Dubai and met with DAMAC founder Hussain Sajwani. Some family members of the victims and the mayor’s political rivals, including former Surfside commissioner Eliana Salzhauer, have accused Danzinger of cozying up to the developer instead of fighting for the interests of the victims.
“The family members were totally disrespected,” said Salzhauer, who sat on the commission from 2020 to 2022. “They are trying to fast-track construction of this building. It is absolutely unacceptable because we still don’t even know why [Champlain Towers South] collapsed.”
Salzhauer added she is still waiting for the mayor to respond to months-old public records requests seeking more details of his trip.
The mayor, for his part, likens the interest in his trip to the “biggest political witch hunt in Surfside history.” He said he met with DAMAC simply to try to gauge whether there was any way they would give, or swap, land with Surfside so a memorial could be built on-site to try to meet the demands of family members. He said he quickly determined a land swap would be too complicated because the company needed to make a return on its investment in the property.
Danzinger added he paid for his own expenses while in Dubai, although he ate lunch at Sajwani’s house in Dubai. He said he doesn’t have to respond to information requests about matters that do not involve his use of city resources and rejected the idea that he was building a relationship with the developer at the cost of advocating for constituents.
“There is no partnership here other than what happens between a city and a developer who is going to be building here for five years,” he said.
DAMAC officials also say there was nothing untoward or unusual about the meeting.
Raysa Rodriguez, 61, narrowly survived the collapse and now feels as though she and other survivors and relatives of victims aren’t getting any say in what happens next. She blames both the rushed sale of the land and a lack of unity among those who lost loved ones in the collapse.
“Maybe if people would have stuck together, maybe we would be closer to getting a memorial,” she said. “There hasn’t been a cohesive group since Day One.”
To Langesfeld, who lost his sister and brother-in-law in the tower collapse, any debate about the memorial cannot be separated from a discussion about its location. When he visits the memorial, the 25-year-old said he deserves to stand where his only sibling took her last step.
“They didn’t die a couple feet away,” Langesfeld said. “They died where they are trying to develop this ultra-luxurious building. They didn’t die next door. … And that is the sole reason they can even develop on the site is because 98 people were killed overnight.”
Shrem agrees, saying she often visits her friend’s gravesite in East Brunswick, N.J. Yet, as she walks around the burial site, Shrem says, “it doesn’t feel that is truly where she is.”
“But when I go to Florida, I feel that is where Estelle is,” she said. “And when they put a new building over it … no matter how beautiful that view is, you are living on top of people who suffered an enormous tragedy.”
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Like there was any doubt they would be building a high dollar megalith on top of that site?
Survivors were paid 1.2 billion, and the remains were trucked elsewhere...there are not bodies there or bones sticking out of the ground on the site. The whole thing is crazy but there is no chance that lot wold remain vacant.
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Like there was any doubt they would be building a high dollar megalith on top of that site?
Survivors were paid 1.2 billion, and the remains were trucked elsewhere...there are not bodies there or bones sticking out of the ground on the site. The whole thing is crazy but there is no chance that lot wold remain vacant.
I cannot believe the survivors and family members think they should have a say in what happens on the site. You were compensated. Move on. If you can’t stand to drive by the site then don’t go there. If you want to mourn your lost loved ones then light a candle or go to a house of worship. The world is not going to be held hostage to your grief. The truth is people die every day in lots of places and sad circumstances. The world moves on.
As for who would want to live there—lots of people want a beach front property. Not everyone knows or cares that people died there… because people die everywhere. I would have no problem living on that site.
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Tilted Tower Of Peace
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I cannot believe the survivors and family members think they should have a say in what happens on the site. You were compensated. Move on. If you can’t stand to drive by the site then don’t go there. If you want to mourn your lost loved ones then light a candle or go to a house of worship. The world is not going to be held hostage to your grief. The truth is people die every day in lots of places and sad circumstances. The world moves on.
As for who would want to live there—lots of people want a beach front property. Not everyone knows or cares that people died there… because people die everywhere. I would have no problem living on that site.
I can’t believe you think your opinion about property and deaths that you have zero relation to matters…
::)
BUT you are correct, people die everyday in horrible ways. They don’t permanently close highways or the city of Chicago due to deaths.
I would hope the developer would create a small memorial out of respect but from the sounds of it most of the surviving family is older so in another 20 years no one remembers.
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I am wary of the general idea of building a high rise structure on the beach front. I like to hike down the Bolivar Peninsula now and then and I am astounded by the expensive housing just on the other side of the dunes.