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Getbig Bodybuilding Boards => Training Q&A => Topic started by: JOHN MATRIX on April 28, 2006, 11:20:16 PM
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man i love these, i dont know why they arent mentioned as a core workout staple....they destroy your lats, expand your ribcage, and give you crazy definition on those abs in between your pecs and obliques, on the sides you know. in addition they hit the chest and tris.
i am always super-sore after finishing a workout with nautilus pullovers as heavy as you can go.thses will put the mass on you.
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I like em too but alot og gyms don't have em. I'll use a DB but i think it depends on age whether it still expands the ribcage.
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definately feel it in the lats and chest.
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I like em too but alot og gyms don't have em. I'll use a DB but i think it depends on age whether it still expands the ribcage.
An excercise physiologist once told me that it is impossible to expand your ribcage at any age. I've read that somewhere to. It seems like you should be able to though.
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The whole ribcage thing's overblown. Bottom line pullovers are one of the best lat and serratus moves.
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i like the db pullover. at the end of my chest routine. its the best exerise that hits everthing in the upper body
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love the nautilus one, too bad my current gym doesnt have one :(
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Again...when the cartilage around the rib's, etc is still in a elastic state, and has not reach a more mature stage, than the possibility of enlarging the rib box's can happen. The mean average in humans is between 22 to 24 years, or abouts, before the cartilage starts to become set or firm. Pullover's have helped increased the depth & width of many men (and women) over the years. Approaching this exercise with serious intent, while the cartilage is still in a state of flux, could product rib box gains of 2 to 4 four inches after a period.. Think of having a 45" muscular chest and than adding 3"s, through expansion of the rib box, for an impressive 48 inch chest. Even if one is in their 30's-40's+, doing regular set's of pullovers seem to influence the lifting of the muscle attachments around and supporting the chest/rib box, giving more flexability and a fuller feeling to the chest overall. All are great for improveing the full lat sweep when the arm's are held overhead, double bicep pose, front/back lat pose, etc.
Pullovers, either straight or bent-arm, is a great growing exercise for the lat's, pec's & triceps. Also hits the abs strongly. Adding the press at the finish of the bent-arm pullover (Pullover & Press) only increases the value of this main upper body mass producer. DB's or BB's each work well but the DB's seen to lessen any stress on my elbows & wrist. Doing pullovers after heavy deep breathing producing movements, like squats, DL's, cleans only add to the advantage of expanding the rib box. Good Luck.
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Again...when the cartilage around the rib's, etc is still in a non-elastic state, and has not reach a more mature stage, than the possibility of enlarging the rib box's can happen. The mean average in humans is between 22 to 24 years, or abouts, before the cartilage starts to become set or firm. Pullover's have helped increased the depth & width of many men (and women) over the years. Approaching this exercise with serious intent, while the cartilage is still in a state of flux, could product rib box gains of 2 to 4 four inches after a period.. Think of having a 45" muscular chest and than adding 3"s, through expansion of the rib box, for an impressive 48 inch chest. Even if one is in their 30's-40's+, doing regular set's of pullovers seem to influence the lifting of the muscle attachments around and supporting the chest/rib box, giving more flexability and a fuller feeling to the chest overall. All are great for improveing the full lat sweep when the arm's are held overhead, double bicep pose, front/back lat pose, etc.
Pullovers, either straight or bent-arm, is a great growing exercise for the lat's, pec's & triceps. Also hits the abs strongly. Adding the press at the finish of the bent-arm pullover (Pullover & Press) only increases the value of this main upper body mass producer. DB's or BB's each work well but the DB's seen to lessen any stress on my elbows & wrist. Doing pullovers after heavy deep breathing producing movements, like squats, DL's, cleans only add to the advantage of expanding the rib box. Good Luck.
I think the arguement against this is that the ribs fuse to your spine on one end and sternum on the other end, therefore the rib cage can't expand. This happens when your bones stop growing. Hatfield wrote on this plus you'll find it in other books.
I don't remember ever hearing the cartiladge arguement before, I remember something about there being muscle between the ribs which can be built up. If either arguement was correct, it seems like the rib cage would become longer ( from neck to waist) not bigger.
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I guess it would be time to back away from the books, remove the lab jacket and hit the gym. Giving the pullover (whatever version you choose) a fair test of 10-12 reps of 3 sets, with a moderate weight at first, can produce enlightment to it's valie and the effect on the chest/rib box. Also the influence on the recuitment of the pec's, lat's, triceps & abs. And if your blessed with youth, than the elastic state of the cartilage around and between the ribs themselves could produce permanent expansive growth to the chest measurement. With all due respect to DR. Squat, the results of doing pullovers, with serious intent, may be very surprising & rewarding. Good Luck.
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im almost certain they have expanded my ribcage....i have a small structure, skinny bones all over, narrow shoulders, ect.. but my rib cage is for 'some reason' huge relative to the rest of me. it makes for a great side chest and i can do a monster vaccum. ive done pullovers off and on for a long time, and i think they DO expand your rib cage (im 23 now) and as far as i can tell it is still expanding. my chest-waist ratio is sick, my torso is beginning to look like that guy freddy ortiz 8)
well almost :P
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I do pullovers on back day... right at the end of the workout, I keep the weight manageable and do 4 sets of 12-15 reps.
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I do them at the end of my chest routine but too heavy because this will take the tension off your chest and put a bulk of the load on your lats.
I concertrate on my as much as possible when doing them.
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love the nautilus one, too bad my current gym doesnt have one :(
man I'd love to get my hands on alot of that old nautilus stuff one of the gyms in my area has a pulloever machine but it's not a nautilus and it's not the same ??? ??? ??? :-X
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im almost certain they have expanded my ribcage....i have a small structure, skinny bones all over, narrow shoulders, ect.. but my rib cage is for 'some reason' huge relative to the rest of me. it makes for a great side chest and i can do a monster vaccum. ive done pullovers off and on for a long time, and i think they DO expand your rib cage (im 23 now) and as far as i can tell it is still expanding. my chest-waist ratio is sick, my torso is beginning to look like that guy freddy ortiz 8)
well almost :P
The cartiladge must have grown pushing your ribs forcing them to get bigger, even though your bones had stopped growing. ::) There is no way, your waist could have got smaller and your pecs could have got bigger, making your rib cage look bigger.
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Weighted Chins supersetted with machine/DB pullovers are one of my favorite exercises...lats feel great after doing these.
8)
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Bottom line pullovers are one of the best lat and serratus moves.
Really? Do you have a study to support this?
I will have to do some digging for the study where an EMG machine was hooked up to people doing various kinds of back work, and NOTHING came close to rows (Pendaly style) for activating a large amount of motor units
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Really? Do you have a study to support this?
I will have to do some digging for the study where an EMG machine was hooked up to people doing various kinds of back work, and NOTHING came close to rows (Pendaly style) for activating a large amount of motor units
He said "ONE OF THE BEST"...he is correct.
pullovers should not replace rows in any way. i think both are needed in everyones training.
i don't give two shits about an EMG study, i go by how "my" body reacts to training. you can read studies all day long but without trying it out for yourself you are holding yourself back.
8)
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EMG studies are a useful guide but not the last word.
Pullovers, especially on a good machine, are a rare lat isolation exercise. It's at LEAST as good as rows, in part because BB row form is usually often compromised, as mentioned at the beginning of this thread. For a similar effect from rows I'd go with hammer strength type rows or something similarly more intense like T-bars or 1-arm rows, not BB rows.
Actually I'd do what that guy does as the two best if i had to choose-chins coupled with pullovers, then rows.
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:o this is something to look into! pull overs should be incorporated during chest or back day?
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I must agree with Overload on all points. BB'ing is not controled by the slide rule approach. Pullovers, rows, chins, etc are all part of the whole when considering total lat/back development. EMG measurements give a mean average as to the affect on a subject. Consideration of body type and muscle inserts/bone length/leverage are not usually written into any subjects reading. So row's for one guy might be a major muscle mass producer and for another really does not much in the way of development. That's what's great about BB'ing, it's like a personal lab experiment for each of us. Finding out what really works for each of us is the reward. Like I suggested above; back away from the books, remove the lab jacket and hit the gym. Good Luck.
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I voiced an opinion rooted in science. Whether you choose to use and/or believe is your choice. It is your sweat in the gym. I do want to emphasize that I was referring to JS or Pendaly BB rows....not the typical 45-degree back angle rows. I feel the only thing you need for a good back is heavy deads, bent BB rows and weighted wide-grip pullups.
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did that work for you or in general?
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I do these superset with dumbell chest press. I noticed a huge difference in my strength for other lat-focused exercises after a few months and my back is so much stronger now too. I really love these (and for me ;D ) can do respectable weight.
They also give a great stretch to both the chest and lats even when I go lighter, so sometimes I 'll do them at the end of my workout.
I don't need study data to know how I feel!
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Really? Do you have a study to support this?
i dont give a shit about having any 'study' to support this, i just look in the fucking mirror.
after i put pullovers back in my routine, i *suddenly* developed great serratus definition. and for some reason, the day after a workout concluded with pullovers, i am exceptionally sore in that exact area. guess its all coincidence, since we dont have a nice little documented university survey to support it ::)
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I voiced an opinion rooted in science. Whether you choose to use and/or believe is your choice. It is your sweat in the gym. I do want to emphasize that I was referring to JS or Pendaly BB rows....not the typical 45-degree back angle rows. I feel the only thing you need for a good back is heavy deads, bent BB rows and weighted wide-grip pullups.
that may be all YOU need.
im certainly not saying ONly do pullovers...
i also do deads, barbellrows, calbe rows, pulldowns, and pullups.
wide-grip pullups seem to be popular but they dont do shit for me, i respond the best to hammer-grip pullups by far.
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i dont give a shit about having any 'study' to support this, i just look in the fucking mirror.
after i put pullovers back in my routine, i *suddenly* developed great serratus definition. and for some reason, the day after a workout concluded with pullovers, i am exceptionally sore in that exact area. guess its all coincidence, since we dont have a nice little documented university survey to support it ::)
Hmmmm, you "suddenly" developed? Either you are a beginner or full of crap. Nothing is "sudden" when it comes to muscle building (aside from using gear). Oh wait, maybe you have such great genetics that even looking at pullovers makes you develop "serratus definition".
And as far as wid-grip pullups. Do you somehow have a different muscle structure than the rest of the population? Did you do them to the point you could add weight and still do 4 sets of 10? Or did you try them for a couple of weeks....could only get a couple reps....and then concluded that they "somehow" didn't do anything for you? Come on man, you can't be serious?
All this "it may work for you, but not for everyone" is crap when it comes to movements. Building mass and strength is pretty simple. Lift the heaviest weight you can (with good form), and repeat. This isn't rocket science here and we are all structurally the same (aside for deformities).
But hey, like I said before.....it is your sweat in the gym, waste it as you will.
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Hmmmm, you "suddenly" developed? Either you are a beginner or full of crap. Nothing is "sudden" when it comes to muscle building (aside from using gear). Oh wait, maybe you have such great genetics that even looking at pullovers makes you develop "serratus definition".
And as far as wid-grip pullups. Do you somehow have a different muscle structure than the rest of the population? Did you do them to the point you could add weight and still do 4 sets of 10? Or did you try them for a couple of weeks....could only get a couple reps....and then concluded that they "somehow" didn't do anything for you? Come on man, you can't be serious?
All the usual signs of arrogance here. Yes, sometimes you do suddenly develop, suddenly being a relative term meaning in short order, over a short period of time when something's particularly effective-it's happened to me. At the same time, it's physically very clear what works or doesn't.
Wide-grip pullups aren't necessary at all-many prefer medium-grip, which was also espoused by Arthur Jones. Close-grip as well, really hits the lats. Personally hammer-grip is the best, no comparison; experiment there as well with every option and go with feel in the muscle.
What the "book" says, or what scientific studies suggest, are useful guides and starting points only. Bottom line is feel, baby. But hey, it's your sweat; you have some learning to do if you don't know this.
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Was doing my 3x15 of pullover and presses today. For 1st time i felt it bit in the fron delt aswell,kinda weird and not entirely sure why this happened. It was a heavier weight,it was same as last week?!
Any ideas?
davie
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All the usual signs of arrogance here. Yes, sometimes you do suddenly develop, suddenly being a relative term meaning in short order, over a short period of time when something's particularly effective-it's happened to me. At the same time, it's physically very clear what works or doesn't.
Wide-grip pullups aren't necessary at all-many prefer medium-grip, which was also espoused by Arthur Jones. Close-grip as well, really hits the lats. Personally hammer-grip is the best, no comparison; experiment there as well with every option and go with feel in the muscle.
What the "book" says, or what scientific studies suggest, are useful guides and starting points only. Bottom line is feel, baby. But hey, it's your sweat; you have some learning to do if you don't know this.
pumpster has it covered very well here.
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Was doing my 3x15 of pullover and presses today. For 1st time i felt it bit in the fron delt aswell,kinda weird and not entirely sure why this happened. It was a heavier weight,it was same as last week?!
Any ideas?
davie
not sure...though i hve noticed that any small tweaking of form on these(especially with freeweights as you have more freedom of movement than on a nautilus) will change the feel and where the stress is felt. ive never felt these in the front delts
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NO neither have i, il c how they are this wknd,usually feel them in chest etc,but il c if its just a case of slightly altered hand posiiton or the plain the DB moved on. Soon find out i guess.
davie