Getbig.com: American Bodybuilding, Fitness and Figure
Getbig Bodybuilding Boards => Training Q&A => Topic started by: deviant on June 14, 2006, 09:15:30 AM
-
Been training for a number of years, 28yrs old, 5'8 height, 210lbs..... have always used multiple excercises for each bodypart and trained each muscle once a week.....this has resulted in me going to the gym 3 or 4 times a week.....which i dont want to do anymore, i've decided my evenings are too important to me and my weekends are definately a no gym period....
....i've decided to train only twice a week but do my whole body each session.
So i've come up with this routine:
Benchpress (chest, shoulders, triceps)
Chins (back, biceps)
Dips (chest, shouders, triceps)
Rows (back, biceps)
Squats (legs....obviously)
I'll do one heavy session and one light session each week, anyone used an abreviated routine like this before and what results did they get?
I know its not going to yield major gains, thats not the point anymore....more just interested in keeping what i've got with the minimum of gym time.
JPM, Hedgehog, any pointers?.....if this routine is horseshit can you suggest something else that will keep me around 200lb with only 2 sessions a week?
-
It depends a lot on your genetics and diet. I have seen guys that just maintain. But at least 3 days but they are in and out in about 40 mins. It really depends. If you gain muscle rather easily it may work but I think you would be cheating yourself.
-
I currently train this way, but with a few different exercises:
Bench
Row
Squat
Calf Raise
Straight Leg Deadlift
Upright Rows
Biceps/ Triceps if I feel like it
Entire workout takes ~45 minutes to an hour, tops.
I go to failure (or just short of it) on day 1, lighter weights (~75% of Day 1) on Day 2. I feel pretty tired after Day 1. Working the whole body heavy does have its drawbacks. But this fits my work schedule and family life quite well. Day 2 feels like a reward. I get the blood flowing and don't feel bad the next day.
I skip a week of lifting about every two months. Seems to recharge the batteries.
I love this program. Enough to stay strong and actually grow a bit. I am ~5'8", 200 +/- 10 pounds (depends on summer or winter ;D)
-
just mix it up, do flat bench 1 day and incline another. do squats 1 day and leg press another. straight leg 1 day and reg deads another. i think a pressing movement for shoulders is better. and maybe heavy curls, and skulls or close grip bench
-
Pretty interesting.What you described there resembles to an extent a routine I found in an old MuscleMag when I was a teen.It was supposedly based on John Grimek's training.
If I remember correctly it was based on 6-8 exercises, pure compound lifts.You did 1 half of your body 1 day,rested the next day & then did the other half on day 3.Red meat,fish,whole milk, fruits grains & vegetables were the big nutrition component of it.
I used it but gave it the twist of taking the weekends off.gained like crazy on it & didn't gain that much fat also but maybe being a teen that was because I was much more active than what I am today.Then again it also advocated that if gaining too much fat you simply reduced your caloric intake.Pretty simple if you think of it in that regard-gaining too much fat?,....cut down the calories eaten.
-
Rehashing this story again: Met a lot of older guy's (in their early to mid 30's, old to me at the time), when I was in my teens, who had come up against more responsibilities with marriage, family matters, professions, etc. Had to shorten their training time quite a bit to meet more serious obligations like new homes, paying bills, kids,etc. In other words, entering real life. The still loved to workout and keep in some form of shape, so they had to budget their workout periods. Full body workouts became their standard way of training. Most of them would K.I.S.S. (Keep It Simple Stupid) the training. Usually Squats, Benches, presses, lat machine/chins, etc. Or some version of these basic exercises. Usually 2 or 3 sets at most for a body part. Two to 3 times a week, nothing more. Just could not afford the time involved. Getting in and out of the gym (including showers) with-in an hour was the usually goal. A couple of guy's I knew pooled their money together and invested in a home style power rack. Suprising result was that most of these guy's, who really had not made much in gains for quite some time (or no gains at all), began adding more muscle mass, getting leaner and stronger. And this was at a some what rapid pace.That had made a great impression on me at that time, and even now, that less can be more for most people. These were serious hard core men who would train 5 to 6 days a week, not anyone who just fooled around in the gym like a lot of people do.
Doing whole body workouts can give very good results. The general rule is to work the largest muscle groups first and the smaller group last. Example: legs (squats, back (rows), chest (bench), delts (presses), arms (triceps and than biceps). Try 2 to 3 sets each muscle group, with one exercise per that muscle group. One of the reasons being that the larger muscle groups will require greater energy effort and will need your full focus because much more weight will be used. Might want to check out the H.I.T. program and others of like style, also. The old PHA system had been used by some of them with great results in stamina and fat loss with holding onto muscle size. One added point, try to avoid going to complete failure on any one exercise. Really not needed. Good Luck.
-
Avoid training to failure.
Training two times per week, and a full body workout, could give you very good gains.
Workout 1:
Squats (legs....obviously)
Benchpress with SLIGHT incline (15-20% degree incline) (chest, shoulders, triceps)
Reverse grip Chins (back, biceps) (palms facing you)
Dips (chest, shouders, triceps)
DB Rows (back, biceps)
"a little ab work" ;D ( two heavy sets ~15 reps)
Workout 2:
Deadlift (back, biceps)
Close Grip Benchpress (chest, shoulders, triceps) (shoulder width)
Front Squats (legs....obviously)
Dips (chest, shouders, triceps)
Chins (back, biceps)
DB seated shoulder presses
Do three sets of each excersise, 6-10 reps. Avoid failure, meaning you should never need a spotter.
You will probably have great gains with this routine, since you should be in and out of the gym in fairly short time.
YIP
Zack
-
Excellent replies chaps, ta very much!
-
great reply from hedgy.
-
The idea of avoiding failure's laughable within the context of both infrequent & brief workouts. Lame. Unless you're really indifferent as to what you'll look like a year later challenge yourself during those infrequent workouts, rather than going through the motions as suggested.
Brief workouts can be productive, but unless mediocrity down the road's ok, workouts cannot be brief AND infrequent AND lacking much intensity. No-have to pay the piper somewhere along the line, otherwise take up tennis. Go to failure and beyond, if you're serious. Lower intensity can work if you're interested in spending the time pumping using volume.
That's the practical part, completely aside from the fact that if you have any real interest in lifting, training to failure's not a biggie let's face it. ;)
-
....this has resulted in me going to the gym 3 or 4 times a week.....which i dont want to do anymore, i've decided my evenings are too important to me and my weekends are definately a no gym period....
Why not? What do you do in the evening? Watch TV? Nap? What is more important than you physical wellbeing? Personally there is nothing I'd rather do after a stressful day of work then to scoot into the gym and beat the living shit out of myself for a couple of hours... I find my evenings more productive and relaxing afterwards.
-
Couldn't agree more-frequent exercise say 4-6 times a week is proven better for health, appearance, longevity, etc. Even the government recently increased it's suggested exercise frequency and duration. Twice a week is barely even maintaining actually.
-
The idea of avoiding failure's laughable given infrequent, brief workouts. Lame. To maintain over long periods of time you should at least challenge yourself during those infrequent workouts, not go through the motions, which is basically the advice given.
Brief workouts can be productive, but not short AND lacking in intensity AND infrequent, no. Go to failure and beyond, if you're serious.
That's the practical part, completely aside from the fact that if you have any real interest in lifting, training to failure's not a biggie let's face it. ;)
I understand the idea behind training to failure, and beyond. I myself was a believer in HIT for awhile. Problem is, the neuromuscular system (CNS) needs up to three weeks to recover if stressed. Muscle cells need 2-3 days. And CAN be trained while recovering.
There are two systems involved in recovery. If you avoid frying the CNS, you won't have to wait until it is recovered before hitting real heavy weights again.
Save the CNS, so you're not limited by its recovery time.
YIP
Zack
-
The problem is that assumption, which is far from conclusive. There are many more who believe and have proven through the years that the CNS only takes 48-72 hours to recover, especially in the context of low-medium volume and high intensity-nothing to do with HIT by the way. I'm talking about conventional training with sets in the 4-10 category per muscle; the higher the number of sets done per muscle, the less intensity required per set.
Given that there's nothing conclusive I go with my own experience, which agrees with the experiences of many and completely destroys that line of reasoning about failure and the CNS. Many have trained for long periods of time using moderate sets and high intensity with no adverse effects, because it works.
The idea that it takes weeks to recover is the only thing that i'm absolutely sure is garbage.
-
The problem is that assumption, which is far from conclusive. There are many more who believe that the CNS only takes 48-72 hours to recover, especially in the context of low-medium volume and high intensity-nothing to do with HIT by the way. I'm talking about conventional training with sets in the 4-10 category per muscle depending on size.
Given that there's nothing conclusive, I go with my own experience, which agrees with that and completely destroys that line of reasoning. The idea that it takes weeks to recover is the only thing that i'm absolutely sure is garbage.
Regular training will not induce the extreme CNS stress that going to failure and beyond will.
You yourself mentioned going beyond failure, so I assumed you recommended beyond failure techniques like rest pause, drop sets, forced reps and negatives.
And I still believe it would be a sureway into overtraining if going to failure, if hitting the muscles twice a week.
YIP
Zack
-
The problem is the definition of failure. The conventional version positive failure can be used on virtually every set if the sets are in the low-moderate range. There's no reason to stop before that; can very occasionally even go to negative failure but not often. Pumpers using high volume don't even do that and go to positive failure only some of the time if at all.
Doing a lot of negative failure sets with cheats, forced reps, rest-pause and so on has to be used sparingly, it would definitely effect the CNS unless it's used in the context of very few HIT sets.
It's a sliding scale-more sets, only go to positive failure. Minimalist HIT sets requires the same work to be carried out in very low sets = positive + negative failure.
-
Regular training will not induce the extreme CNS stress that going to failure and beyond will.
You yourself mentioned going beyond failure, so I assumed you recommended beyond failure techniques like rest pause, drop sets, forced reps and negatives.
And I still believe it would be a sureway into overtraining if going to failure, if hitting the muscles twice a week.
YIP
Zack
The point I was trying to make is that if you really are a BBer (competitive or not), then there is NO PLACE you'd rather be than in the gym... I love the smells, the sounds, the frustration, the challenges and the fact that no matter how hard I try, I can NEVER win in the gym.... I can just get through it and come back stronger next time... after 12 years of heavy lifting I am addicted to the endorphin rush from "beyond failure training" ... Arnold was right when he pointed out that it was a sensual experience...
I am 27 (turning 28 in August) and I am starting to feel my age... but I know that I will never stop training hard and heavy... there is NOTHING else in my life which is as personally fulfilling...
Passion for Pain, Love of Lifting, War with Weight... these are the slogans of a true BBer... if anyone is satisfied without that in their lives then they are not my Brothers in Iron... they are the weaklings that I bark at for not unloading their machines...
GYM = PAIN
PAIN = PLEASURE
THEREFORE: GYM = PLEASURE
Amen...
-
GYM = PAIN
PAIN = PLEASURE
THEREFORE: GYM = PLEASURE
We used to have a saying years ago training in Canada.
Training: "Is for the pain & the glory....f*** the glory take the pain."
-
We used to have a saying years ago training in Canada.
Training: "Is for the pain & the glory....f*** the glory take the pain."
I train in Halifax... I live it every day...
-
Lately I have only been training twice a week, sometimes less. Definetely gaining as good, probably better since overtraining is out of the equation. I know I feel better mentally. I basically alternate these 2 workouts:
Push
Bench Press
Incline Press
Low-Incline Flyes
Dumbell Shoulder Press
Skullcrushers
Deep Squats
Pull
Wide Pulldowns
Seated Cable Rows
Undergrip Pulldowns
Calf Raises
Dumbell Curls
Hammer Curls
Rear Delt Flyes
Everything for 2 work sets (after I'm warmed up) both sets high intensity, and damn near failure, or too failure sometimes on pulling exercises. (I lift alone)
Then I do some moderate cardio on some off days.
-
I hope for Mr Wooo's sake the women aren't that bad looking, that he must get his sensual experiences and and the feeling that there is nothing in his "Life" so personality fullfilling as getting in a hard workout. There must be other ways to get his chunky monkey in working order. Is Halifax twenty miles south of Hell, or what? And he's only going to be 28 soon.
Mr Pumpster is doing his verson of double speak again. No use explaining the failure thing to him. It's either "My way or the highway for that gentleman. Good Luck.
-
The problem with big mouth and resident "expert" JPM is he doesn't know when to keep his mouth shut. Absolutely no reason to challenge those who don't agree in such a hostile fashion, except for rampant insecurity and a demonstrated desire to appear to have knowledge beyond anyone else's. I've read enough to know that he knows some things but nowhere near what he thinks.
His real problem which he'll never admit is that he's absolutely sure that he knows more than anyone else-the pomposity practically screams at you from his posts. Just read one of his posts from a week or two ago, congratulating himself on suggesting something that others also know. Ridiculous ass. hahhahahhahahhahahahhaha hahahhaha
Message to JPM/dumbass: by now you should have already learned that yours is not the only informed opinion, gotten over it and learned to resist the need to attack others. Still waiting for your newly-acquired insights to begin..
-
Both of you, STFU now! Or I will put you BOTH in time out! >:(
-
I hope for Mr Wooo's sake the women aren't that bad looking, that he must get his sensual experiences and and the feeling that there is nothing in his "Life" so personality fullfilling as getting in a hard workout. There must be other ways to get his chunky monkey in working order. Is Halifax twenty miles south of Hell, or what? And he's only going to be 28 soon.
I'm sure you'll be happy to know that my girlfriend of several years enjoys spending 2 hours a day in the gym as much as I do... it's just one of the passions we share...
-
Insight to Mr Pumpster: Please stay on you med's. I'm begging you, never miss a day again.
Your Friend...JPM
Mr Wooo: as long has your making passion the number one concern...that would be a good thing.
Good Luck.
-
Thanks for all the unasked for & hostile "advice", old man. No one asked you for your opinions on others. Training info is more interesting than your personal vendettas, my keyboard warrior. ;)
Stick with your "kinder & gentler" white-gloves training and resist mightily more hostile ejaculations at others who simply feel like contributing.
Carry on with the preachy training advice, your personality sux ;D
Harness this overt hostility and put it into increased training intensity; sounds like you need it. :D
-
Pumpster: OK, I will.. .....And special thanks for all those little faces you tag alone with your prose. Hopefully we can talk again sometime. But now I must leave and go to Fidel's for Mexican food & drink.
Your Friend, JPM
-
Squats (A$$ to heels)
Bench Press
Bent Over BBell Rows
Military/Shoulder Presses
Barbell Curls
French Presses or Close Grip Bench Presses
Standing Calf Raises
Ab Crunches
Do the above exercises Mon/Wed/Fri per week or split in half & do a Mon/Thurs Tues/Fri program.If followed correctly doing it all in 1 workout should take an hour w/whole body routines.Foue day per week even less.Try for 3 sets w/rep range of 8-12 reps except for abs & calves which get 15-25 reps.Use a pyramid style for the weights or just basic straight sets but use as much weight as you possibly can in good form.As long as diet is good, in other words EAT!!!,... you will grow.
-
Ok.
Let's get this thread back on track.
deviant has decided on training twice a week. Not once, three times or four times a week. But twice a week.
He's looking to do a fullbody workout. Not a split.
But a fullbody workout.
Reasons for this is in the very first post of this thread.
YIP
Zack
-
Avoid training to failure.
Training two times per week, and a full body workout, could give you very good gains.
Workout 1:
Squats (legs....obviously)
Benchpress with SLIGHT incline (15-20% degree incline) (chest, shoulders, triceps)
Reverse grip Chins (back, biceps) (palms facing you)
Dips (chest, shouders, triceps)
DB Rows (back, biceps)
"a little ab work" ;D ( two heavy sets ~15 reps)
Workout 2:
Deadlift (back, biceps)
Close Grip Benchpress (chest, shoulders, triceps) (shoulder width)
Front Squats (legs....obviously)
Dips (chest, shouders, triceps)
Chins (back, biceps)
DB seated shoulder presses
Do three sets of each excersise, 6-10 reps. Avoid failure, meaning you should never need a spotter.
You will probably have great gains with this routine, since you should be in and out of the gym in fairly short time.
YIP
Zack
You may want to consider trying 2 sets of each excersise as well, or at least for the occasional workout.
YIP
Zack
-
Rewinding this thread again: I will usually suggest starting with the lowest common denominator, and that would be 1 or 2 sets, when approaching a full body workout. If the need is felt, than try adding one more set to the compound exercises, making 3 sets the maxium done. The smaller stuff, like laterial raises, abs or arm's, can gain quite well with that original 1 or 2 sets. Though with all the slick T&A mag's, video's, book's, etc you would not think that possible.
HedgeHog give another slant on the workouts, with more variety of exercises. Lot's of guy's like that more because it can spice up the workouts and, at times, relieve boredom. The mental approach is most always more important than the physical one for most workouts anyway. Some will change up the rep scheme each workout also. I will not mention the "F" word, but just to say than exhausting the CNS in every workout is not the goal. Of all the key elements for steady gains & growth, the recovery of the body can be of major importance. Good Luck.
-
Going to failure or occasionally beyond training efficiently with moderate or low numbers of sets will not diminish the CNS. The CNS will be diminished by burning the candle at both ends: long workouts that are also gruelling, but generally speaking not by one or the other alone. 48-72 hours later following recovery, the same muscle can be trained again.
-
Why not? What do you do in the evening? Watch TV? Nap? What is more important than you physical wellbeing?
I'm not giving it up totally, i still enjoy the gym.....proud of the fact i look better than 90% of the population out there but theres other things i enjoy equally as much and i feel gym time has become disproportionate to the enjoyment i get out of it....
....i'm in a job i'm probably going to stay in for the rest of my working life, one i actually have no resentment about doing, i want to put in the time and study and get ahead while i'm still young, i may need to give up some evenings for this....
.....summer's here in england, its been 80 degrees for the last 2 weeks and when the weathers like this i get more enjoyment going out for a blast on my bike than being in the gym.....
....most of my social group dont go to the gym, for the last however many years i've finished work at 7pm and gone to the gym in the evening, i'm getting pissed off with missing evenings out.....
Just a few reasons, you may have different priorities WOOO but right now my friends, my career and fucking about and having fun are top of my list.
I've never considered myself a bodybuilder, never intended to do a show....just consider muself a bloke who lifts weights and looks good in a t-shirt, thats good enough for me.....
....(kicks back and pops the top off another cold one)....bottoms up!
;D
-
Just a few reasons, you may have different priorities WOOO but right now my friends, my career and fucking about and having fun are top of my list.
I've never considered myself a bodybuilder, never intended to do a show....just consider muself a bloke who lifts weights and looks good in a t-shirt, thats good enough for me.....
....(kicks back and pops the top off another cold one)....bottoms up!
;D
i gotcha... good luck...
-
Rewinding this thread again: I will usually suggest starting with the lowest common denominator, and that would be 1 or 2 sets, when approaching a full body workout. If the need is felt, than try adding one more set to the compound exercises, making 3 sets the maxium done. The smaller stuff, like laterial raises, abs or arm's, can gain quite well with that original 1 or 2 sets. Though with all the slick T&A mag's, video's, book's, etc you would not think that possible.
HedgeHog give another slant on the workouts, with more variety of exercises. Lot's of guy's like that more because it can spice up the workouts and, at times, relieve boredom. The mental approach is most always more important than the physical one for most workouts anyway. Some will change up the rep scheme each workout also. I will not mention the "F" word, but just to say than exhausting the CNS in every workout is not the goal. Of all the key elements for steady gains & growth, the recovery of the body can be of major importance. Good Luck.
I pretty much agree. I like doing 2 sets for everything because, for one it saves time and lets me do all the exercises I want to do without drawing out the workout for more than 90 min tops. Also because I don't like stopping very short of failure, so less sets allows me to do this on a regular basis and grow.
-
Going to failure or occasionally beyond training efficiently with moderate or low numbers of sets will not diminish the CNS. The CNS will be diminished by burning the candle at both ends: long workouts that are also gruelling, but generally speaking not by one or the other alone. 48-72 hours later following recovery, the same muscle can be trained again.
your not contributing at all, dumpster.
-
I generally favor two sets for each excersise when bodybuilding. Easy to keep the mental focus, for one.
deviant was looking for a certain type of layout due to lack of time and other matters, hence the suggested layout.
He would be doing 18 working sets for each workout. Something which may be too much for the natural athlete.
Regarding the CNS discussion: All my time estimates for the recovery of the CNS are based on training w/o the use of AAS or likewise products. If you're on AAS, studies shows that the CNS will recover quicker.
Still: Manage the CNS and you will NEVER have to rest due to it being exhausted.
YIP
Zack
-
I agree.
I'm a 2 set man myself.
-
That looks like a good routine. Keep it up, and keep us updated.