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Getbig Bodybuilding Boards => Training Q&A => Topic started by: theoperator on July 04, 2006, 02:36:22 PM
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i heard when squatting your knees should never extend farther than your toes, but when i try to follow the rule its hard for me to get a full squat, i cant even fully go to parallel.
I practiced for a while with just the bar and the only way i could squat down without my knees going over my toes was if i leaned my back straight forward like i was doing good mornings and squats at the same time. That worked with the empty bar but once i started piling weight on their it made my lower back tired way before my legs were
so how exactly are you supposed to get a full squat without your knees going over ur toes????????
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Act like you're sitting in a chair, that should keep your knees from going over your toes. You can place a bench behind you and actually sit on it as you squat, just so you know your motion is correct. Think about it, when you sit down in a chair your knees do not come out over your feet.
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you're first motion when you squat should be BACK not DOWN, as soon as you break your knees push your ass back and push your knees out to the side, your feet will have to be a little beyond shoulder width to do this but you'll squat perfectly every time.
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Ignore everything stated and just squat down in a way that's comfortable. Once you find something comfortable that will be your form from then on. Ignore any nonsense about where your knees and feet should be. Also, if balance is an issue put a 1-2" block under your heels, it'll help.
The only thing is to make sure you're warmed up well first and start with some light and medium weight sets.
Also try box squats-the best form of squats IMO; form's even less of an issue with these.
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Ignore everything stated and just squat down in a way that's comfortable. Once you find something comfortable that will be your form from then on. Ignore any nonsense about where your knees and feet should be. Also, if balance is an issue put a 1-2" block under your heels, it'll help.
The only thing is to make sure you're warmed up well first and start with some light and medium weight sets.
Also try box squats-the best form of squats IMO; form's even less of an issue with these.
hahahaha, ok, "pumpster".
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Ignore everything stated and just squat down in a way that's comfortable. Once you find something comfortable that will be your form from then on. Ignore any nonsense about where your knees and feet should be. Also, if balance is an issue put a 1-2" block under your heels, it'll help.
The only thing is to make sure you're warmed up well first and start with some light and medium weight sets.
Also try box squats-the best form of squats IMO; form's even less of an issue with these.
That is exactly what I was going to say. Don't even think about it when you squat....you know the basic rules to it, and you know what is too heavy for you own good so your fine.
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hahahaha, ok, "pumpster".
Dumbass "sarcasm" with useless instructions himself. Hey buddy get back to me when you've been in the pits squatting like I have-it ain't complicated. hahahahahahahahah
Sarcasm's "advice" was next to useless-squat "back"? WTF? If i tried to understand this gibberish I'd still have legs the size of his. hahahahahhaah
you're first motion when you squat should be BACK not DOWN, as soon as you break your knees push your ass back and push your knees out to the side, your feet will have to be a little beyond shoulder width to do this but you'll squat perfectly every time.
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Dumbass "sarcasm" with useless instructions himself. Hey buddy get back to me when you've been in the pits squatting like I have-it ain't complicated. hahahahahahahahah
hahahaha, i've forgotten more abut squatting than you'll ever know, pencilneck fa.ggot.
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More horrible advice from "sarcasm". Seriously do not bother with this board your info is a waste of the server.
Let's review: "squat down & back" which basically means falling backwards and the weight falling on you. hahahahahhahaha
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More horrible advice from "sarcasm". Seriously do not bother with this board your info is a waste of space. hahahahahhahaha
tell Louie Simmons how bad that advice is jackass.
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STFU punk - your advice sux.
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STFU punk
hahahaha, meltdown.
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hahahah sure buddy - desperately throw out some more getbig cliches while you're at it.
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hahahah sure buddy - throw out some more getbig cliches while you're at it.
hahahaha, you make me laugh pumpster, always telling people to avoid the hard barbell exercises and giving absolutely shit advice on training, no wonder you're 140lbs.
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It's called thinking outside of the box you idiot; guys like Coleman believe in cables and I did free weights for years so i've already been there. Whether you do or not because you're a closed-minded vindictive twit's irrelevant.
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everyone has their own Training methods and learning a few different things really helps to give new ideas, so lay off pumpster fellas.
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Thanks man but I wanted to get a reaction from "sarcasm" hahahahahhahahahaah
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ok so my thread just got hijacked but i still dont really understand what to do....
figure a way out to keep my knees back or screw it and just squat ?
will i get injured if i continue to squat without caring if my knees are in front of my toes?
or is that another one of those training myths?
is there any evidence to support either point of view?
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No you won't get injured unless you are forcing yourself to squat a way that your not comfortable doing. Just start with a weight you can handle and do your squats nice and slow however you feel most comfortable.
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pumpster does give the best advice here...and that's do what's comfortable with the positioning of your feet...with a few other important things to keep in mind......
After picking the weight up and moving back...now THINK about what you're going to do next!
...break first at the hip, not at the knee (you'll have to concentrate on that one).. while coming down with feet flat on the floor you want the weight to be concentrated on the middle portion and the heels of your feet....
...on the way back up from parallel or slightly below you want to do the same with the weight being pushed up from the heels of the feet...
...keeping this in mind the machanics will come with practice and repetition...
Sledge
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you're first motion when you squat should be BACK not DOWN, as soon as you break your knees push your ass back and push your knees out to the side, your feet will have to be a little beyond shoulder width to do this but you'll squat perfectly every time.
Is that the position you use when MOS and Showstoppa give you some man-love?
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figure a way out to keep my knees back or screw it and just squat ?
will i get injured if i continue to squat without caring if my knees are in front of my toes?
or is that another one of those training myths?
is there any evidence to support either point of view?
The info's already there, it's up to you to try one or both approaches.
Just squat with a bar and no weight without thinking about form, until the form used is second-nature. All the instructions are a nice way to over-analyze something simple. Once you've established form that is comfortable using just a bar, add light-moderate weight.
-Keep the weight in the moderate area so that you'll have more control-do higher reps in the 12-20 range. Later when squatting's second nature, you can go heavier.
-1-2" block for the heels
-1-2 spotters, especially at the beginning when you're still unsure, and later on when you start to go heavier.
-Also try box/bench squats down to just below halfway-they're not only great for size and easier on the knees, they also require less balance and add an extra measure of safety in that you can sit down on the bench if stuck.
-Also try using a Smith machine or other type of squat machine if you're having balance issues-much easier and in some cases, as good or better than free weight squats-try both versions eventually before deciding which you prefer. Machines won't require spotters.
-Warm up is crucial for the joints-a few minutes of moderate stationary bike and/or a few light sets of squats, etc.
You're welcome. ;D
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Is that the position you use when MOS and Showstoppa give you some man-love?
That's funny shit ;D
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A lot of good advice here, the most important being that you gotta break from the hips and NOT the knees.. i.e. to intiate the movement by sitting back rather than lettin your knees go. The idea of keeping the knees from going past the knees is to make sure of that- it is a simply an indicator rather than a commandment to follow. In my assessment it generally does indicate imperfect form, plus there is the added stress on the knees that you do not want.
Contrary to what "fagster" (had to get u back ;D) is saying here IMHO it is generally best that you follow "book form" first before "doing what works for me". You will need a lot of practicing to get the movement down- the reason for that has mroe to do with allowing for neuromuscular efficiency than it does with inducing hypertrophy.
Do not get in the "hitting muscles once a week" rut, you need to squat 2-3 times a week. I agree that box squats are a very good movement- amongst many of its benefits is that you learn to sit back into the movment- like someone mentioned its like sitting on the shitter to take a shit. I would say taht most of the squat work, especially the heavier sets, should be done with the box squat.
Obviously at the end of the day you need to apply what u learn, so some light Full Squatting following the box squats might be very helpful (12-20 reps).
Just my 2 cents ;)
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Just a couple of things I generally disagree with. (WADR) generally speaking, heel plates might make this person’s situation worse. We don’t know if he has long femurs, tight calves, tight hammies, poor ankle flexion, hip imbalances, etc. or just lack of experience. I’m not against heel plates, but only for the right reasons. Secondly, the Smith IMO does not help to teach a proper squat. In fact it can teach poor habits.
Much of the exercise community has made the toe / knee position taboo. However, since this knee position is unavoidable in sports, or even in everyday life (try walking up or down stairs or a hill without your knee crossing your toe line) the proper way to prevent injuries is to strengthen the musculature around the joint by allowing the knee to travel into the “unsafe” zone in a controlled environment.
All joints contain feedback mechanisms inside the connective tissue and joint capsules called proprioceptors. These communicate with your nervous system to tell your brain what position your joint is at. This is how you can close your eyes and be aware of exactly what angle all of your joints are at without actually seeing them. To simplify a complicated issue, the more time you spend with your knee past your toe-line, the more you teach your nervous system to activate the protective soft tissue around the joint therefore PREVENTING injury during athletic situations.
I think box squats are an excellent way to teach this exercise.
http://www.bsu.edu/webapps2/strengthlab/home.htm
http://www.weightliftingdiscussion.com/boxsquat.html
http://www.deepsquatter.com/strength/archives/ls9.htm
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I wasn't going to comment (do I hear cheer's?) but have been inspired by the excellent information supplied by the aways lovely and alluring Princess L.
The toe/knee in-line thing can fall into the disinformation folder for the majority of trainee's. The in-line center of gravity and the fact that everyone is not structured the same way, gives cause for the creditably of this idea. I don't think that anyone would, in the real training world, want to limit the flexability of the knee/thigh this way, with regards to the muscle/joint action. Too much unneeded stress produced. If the step-up is applied (alternate legs), rather than regular BB squating, than that toe/knee position can be preformed without undo stress, as with lunges. Bulgarian squats fall into this class. Any of the above are very good ham builders also.
This is not to say that most people should not do the toe/knee style, a few can without undo troubles. That is their leverage/insert/joint placements disposition. Any and all exercises should be given a fair try at least for a short period, to test the muscle/joint responces. Bad or good will depend on the individual and their responces.
Some coaches, in the past, have used a piece of plywood (3X3 or whatever suits the purpose) and have the trainee place his toes against the bottom, with the knee's brushing that board to learn the toe/knee style. Some have used a rope or board. The stance is usually wider than normal. Not that it would matter much, but I would not suggest anyone of those methods. As mentioned, the box squat is a prime way of learning to not only use the thighs but the hips, butt & hams. You are sitting back with the back and head straight (like they taught us in missionary school). You lead with the hips/butt, with strong influence from the hams, rather than only the legs themselves. It's somewhat like shifting gears in a car, different muscle phases all the way to the top position. Flexability is quite important with this style of box squating. Just about everyone will be too stiff, with limited range, at first. It doesn't have to be a box it's self. Guy's use benches, etc. A couple of PL'ing bud's of mine use two turned over buckets. Two buckets for their rather large 300lb arse's.
Putting the heels on a 2" block (or whatever) would be counter productive and certainly proned to injury if one is serious about actually doing toe/knee line squats. Just follow the track of the knee, with regard to the body, to understand this. And as Princess L stated in her impelling insights, the Smith machine would be the last peice of equipment that anyone would want to use when attempting to do toe/knee inline squating. Good Luck.
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I wasn't going to comment (do I hear cheer's?) but have been inspired by the excellent information supplied by the aways lovely and alluring Princess L.
:-*
And as Princess L stated in her impelling insights, the Smith machine would be the last peice of equipment that anyone would want to use when attempting to do toe/knee inline squating. Good Luck.
I spent a long time using the smith, afraid of the rack. After A LOT of time and with the help of several professionals, I finally "got it". It's an exercise I'm quite passionate about. ;)
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Princess L.....The Lovely One:
That's the reason I would not suggest the Smith machine to the average trainee. Too much time involved to learn proper style and a lot of people are just not suited for the appointed and different stress levels (muscle/strength curves) offered. Any movement that would require the toe/knee, let alone learning the proper squating form, position may be quite a challenge for most (Over the years I've noticed that a lot of BB'ers are not the most coordinated or athletic of persons). I think the Smith machine get's a bad rep, it can be a rewarding piece of equipment, but it can demand a learning phase that a lot of people don't care to invest in. Also they try to rush the weight on the bar before really achieving proper style/form. I find that even experience BB'ers will need the help of a spotter from time to time on that equipment. It's not always a solo exercise by all means. Good Luck and share the passion.
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I wasn't going to comment (do I hear cheer's?) but have been inspired by the excellent information supplied by the aways lovely and alluring Princess L.
Princess L.....The Lovely One:
Man does this guy need to get laid? :-X That explains the wild mood swings and hostility.
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Just a couple of things I generally disagree with. (WADR) generally speaking, heel plates might make this person’s situation worse. We don’t know if he has long femurs, tight calves, tight hammies, poor ankle flexion, hip imbalances, etc. or just lack of experience. I’m not against heel plates, but only for the right reasons. Secondly, the Smith IMO does not help to teach a proper squat. In fact it can teach poor habits.
Very questionable-best that each individual tries for himself, rather than advising one way or the other-heel plates are excellent for the majority, thus it's quite unwise to generalize to the contrary out of hand; I used them for years of heavy squatting and wouldn't think of doing without them-both because balance is much easier and because there is less stress on the knees, IMO. Try all possibilities and resist and suggestions that tell you to stick to one approach; later you can make your own judgements. That includes the use of a 1-2" block.
Putting the heels on a 2" block (or whatever) would be counter productive and certainly proned to injury if one is serious about actually doing toe/knee line squats. Just follow the track of the knee, with regard to the body, to understand this. And as Princess L stated in her impelling insights, the Smith machine would be the last peice of equipment that anyone would want to use when attempting to do toe/knee inline squating. Good Luck.
More long-winded and poor, one-dimensional advice. The smart thing to do is try everything yourself, and decide. Heel blocks rule, and should be tried rather than following foolish advice like this in which someone else presumes to know better.
Smith machine-same thing. Rather than follow some lame generalization from someone here, try for yourself and decide. Some guys including Yates find the Smith squat far better than regular squats, some think the opposite-you try, you decide. Simple. Does not matter beginner or experienced; in fact machines often offer advantages to beginner who then don't have to worry about balance issues.
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Very questionable-best that each individual tries for himself, rather than advising one way or the other-heel plates are excellent for the majority, thus it's quite unwise to generalize to the contrary out of hand; I used them for years of heavy squatting and wouldn't think of doing without them-both because balance is much easier and because there is less stress on the knees, IMO. Try all possibilities and resist and suggestions that tell you to stick to one approach; later you can make your own judgements. That includes the use of a 1-2" block.
More long-winded and poor, one-dimensional advice. The smart thing to do is try everything yourself, and decide. Heel blocks rule, and should be tried rather than following foolish advice like this in which someone else presumes to know better.
Smith machine-same thing. Rather than follow some lame generalization from someone here, try for yourself and decide. Some guys including Yates find the Smith squat far better than regular squats, some think the opposite-you try, you decide. Simple. Does not matter beginner or experienced; in fact machines often offer advantages to beginner who then don't have to worry about balance issues.
stupid pinch fight aside that is a fact find what works best for you and do not let others tell you different.
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that is a fact find what works best for you and do not let others tell you different.
There you have it.
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Let's see here, where to start.......believe I said "I think the Smith machine get's a bad rep, it can be a rewarding piece of equipment, but it can demand a learning phase that a lot of people don't care to invest in". And "Puting the heels on a 2" (or whatever) block would be counter productive and certainly prone to injury if one is serious about actually doing TOE/KNEE Line Squats". The knee will tend to shoot forward in a natural reaction because of the load put upon the knee joints, for one. If anyone had ever tried to do that type of raised squat than you may understand the problems involved.Some may adapt well but most will not. Of course any one can see that this is not refering to any other form of squat, just the case in point TOE/KNEE line squats. Not really hard to understand at all. As long as I have been posting at this site I have suggested, many times over, the benefit of more quad recuitment, better form and balance when squating on a 2" block. I also apply this to BB Hack squats with good quad results.
The great thing about lifting is that everyone will have the opportunity to experiment on themselves to see what works the best. That is just common logic.
The Pumpster will be given the HOWARD DEAN award this weekend for outstanding pettiness and fuzzy logic. A well deserved award indeed. Good Luck to my pal.
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Well you made it through without your usual vindictive ejaculations, though there's still time to hold true to form. ;)