Author Topic: Giuliani Flips on Schiavo Case  (Read 2357 times)

Dos Equis

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Giuliani Flips on Schiavo Case
« on: May 05, 2007, 10:27:13 AM »
These politicians make me sick. 

Saturday, May 5, 2007 11:59 a.m. EDT
Giuliani Flips on Schiavo Case
In the GOP debate Thursday night, candidate Ruddy Giuliani suggested the Schiavo controversy should have been left to the courts. But when Giuliani visited home county of Terri Schiavo last month, he said he supported the controversial effort by Congress to intervene to keep the severely brain-damaged woman on life support, according to a report in the St. Petersburg Times.

Terri Schiavo died in 2005 at age 41 after a long legal battle between her husband, who said she did not want to be kept alive by artificial means, and her family, who said the judges were effectively starving her to death, and that she could yet recover.

"The family was in dispute. That's what we have courts for. And the better place to decide that in a much more, I think in a much fairer and even in a deeper way, is in front of a court," Giuliani declared at the first GOP presidential debate at the Ronald Reagan library in California.

In April, however, he noted that the controversy had been through the court system for years, adding that the 2005 congressional intervention, "was appropriate to make every effort to give her a chance to stay alive. ... My general view is, you should do everything you can to keep somebody alive unless they have expressed a strong interest in not having very, very special things done, extraordinary things done."

A day after the debate, Giuliani's campaign spokesman, Elliott Bundy attempted to clarify his bosses position on Schiavo:

"Last night Mayor Giuliani said that ideally these types of difficult issues are best left up to families and when there are disputes, it is a matter for the courts to decide. As he said in Florida in April, there are sometimes extraordinary circumstances where the intentions of the person in question are not clear. The Schiavo case was one of those very special circumstances."

"Anybody hurts themselves by being inconsistent on this particular subject," remarked state Rep. Dennis Baxley, an Ocala Republican who led the state legislative efforts to keep Schiavo alive in 2005. "In retrospect, it's not popular to be associated with it, but when you're in the middle of it, you don't deal with whether it's popular, you have to deal with whether it's right."

"Mr. Giuliani needs to figure out what he really believes about these important issues of privacy and the rule of law, " said Derek Newton, a spokesman for Terripac, the political committee started by Terri Schiavo's husband. "But if he believes what he said last - that this issue is a legal one and not a political one - he is squarely in tune with most Americans, and we applaud him."

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2007/5/5/120348.shtml?s=ic

Tre

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Re: Giuliani Flips on Schiavo Case
« Reply #1 on: May 05, 2007, 07:59:38 PM »

The chance of recovery was too remote to prolong her body's suffering any longer.  With hospital beds at a premium, it made no sense to keep her alive.

Being married, that choice belonged to her husband, UNLESS it could be determined that he was somehow involved in a criminal conspiracy that required her death.  At that point, he would lose standing and the decision would belong to a court of law. 

All that being said, my real problem with the case was the inhumane method that the state, hospital, and husband used to kill her. 

The fact that mass murderers and rabid dogs are treated with more compassion is something we should ALL be disturbed by.  Their decision to starve this defenseless woman to death while the world watched made me very ashamed to be an American and I feel exactly the same whenever I think about this case. 




Dos Equis

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Re: Giuliani Flips on Schiavo Case
« Reply #2 on: May 06, 2007, 10:52:38 AM »
The chance of recovery was too remote to prolong her body's suffering any longer.  With hospital beds at a premium, it made no sense to keep her alive.

Being married, that choice belonged to her husband, UNLESS it could be determined that he was somehow involved in a criminal conspiracy that required her death.  At that point, he would lose standing and the decision would belong to a court of law. 

All that being said, my real problem with the case was the inhumane method that the state, hospital, and husband used to kill her. 

The fact that mass murderers and rabid dogs are treated with more compassion is something we should ALL be disturbed by.  Their decision to starve this defenseless woman to death while the world watched made me very ashamed to be an American and I feel exactly the same whenever I think about this case. 





How else was she going to die?  They stopped using the extraordinary life sustaining methods being used to keep her alive.  As courts repeatedly found, this was actually Terry's decision, made through her husband. 

Her case highlights the importance of advance directives. 

gcb

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Re: Giuliani Flips on Schiavo Case
« Reply #3 on: May 06, 2007, 07:55:38 PM »
Just remember guys all life is sacred ... except if you're black or muslim or ...  ;D

Dos Equis

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Re: Giuliani Flips on Schiavo Case
« Reply #4 on: May 06, 2007, 07:57:29 PM »
Just remember guys all life is sacred ... except if you're black or muslim or ...  ;D

still in the womb . . . .

gcb

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Re: Giuliani Flips on Schiavo Case
« Reply #5 on: May 06, 2007, 08:04:17 PM »
still in the womb . . . .

Yeah fair enough I guess

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Re: Giuliani Flips on Schiavo Case
« Reply #6 on: May 06, 2007, 08:35:06 PM »
still in the womb . . . .

very good point you make here.

tu_holmes

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Re: Giuliani Flips on Schiavo Case
« Reply #7 on: May 06, 2007, 08:49:41 PM »
Does this make Giuliani a flip flopper?

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Re: Giuliani Flips on Schiavo Case
« Reply #8 on: May 06, 2007, 09:10:38 PM »
rudy flipped on a few issues so far.  as did mitt and mccain.

they're all pandering to the neocon base, as whoever gets them will have the majority in the primaries.

once they get the nomination, they'll return to more centrist positions to try to win the general.  it's politics...

Tre

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Re: Giuliani Flips on Schiavo Case
« Reply #9 on: May 06, 2007, 11:52:49 PM »
How else was she going to die?  They stopped using the extraordinary life sustaining methods being used to keep her alive.  As courts repeatedly found, this was actually Terry's decision, made through her husband. 

How can you justify starving another human being to death??

The problem is not that society chose to end her life.  The problem is *how* we chose to kill her.  She should've been completely sedated to the point that all function ceased.  It would've taken half an hour, tops.  

But to let her starve for 13 days...

We are truly a nation of savages.  No matter how nicely you dress us up, we're savages, plain and simple.  


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Re: Giuliani Flips on Schiavo Case
« Reply #10 on: May 07, 2007, 12:10:59 AM »
How can you justify starving another human being to death??

The problem is not that society chose to end her life.  The problem is *how* we chose to kill her.  She should've been completely sedated to the point that all function ceased.  It would've taken half an hour, tops.  

But to let her starve for 13 days...

We are truly a nation of savages.  No matter how nicely you dress us up, we're savages, plain and simple.  



Because that's what she chose.  Just like I don't want to be kept alive artificially, Terry Schiavo chose not to be kept alive artificially, like every judge and court found that looked at her case.  This happens all the time.  People die like this all the time.  Anyone who has an advance directive that says they don't want a respirator or tube feeding, or designates someone to make that decision for them, makes the same choice.

And she was sedated.   

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Re: Giuliani Flips on Schiavo Case
« Reply #11 on: May 07, 2007, 12:14:29 AM »
How can you justify starving another human being to death??

The problem is not that society chose to end her life.  The problem is *how* we chose to kill her.  She should've been completely sedated to the point that all function ceased.  It would've taken half an hour, tops. 

But to let her starve for 13 days...

We are truly a nation of savages.  No matter how nicely you dress us up, we're savages, plain and simple. 



It was her choice... Would you be ok if someone chose to tell you how to die.

She was Brain dead anyway... she didn't know hunger... or pain... She was dead already. She just didn't know it.

Tre

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Re: Giuliani Flips on Schiavo Case
« Reply #12 on: May 07, 2007, 11:00:30 AM »

It saddens me that otherwise intelligent individuals (Beach & Holmes and thousands of Americans) are able to justify this type of torture. 

But here's the question:

If she was brain dead and could feel no hunger or pain, then why was it necessary to sedate her throughout the almost 2-week process?

---------------

Again, I have no problem with our decision to terminate her life by removing the feeding tube.  But we failed in our obligation to make her death as quick as possible once the final determination was made that her family of origin did not have the right to keep her on life support. 

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Re: Giuliani Flips on Schiavo Case
« Reply #13 on: May 07, 2007, 12:38:07 PM »
It saddens me that otherwise intelligent individuals (Beach & Holmes and thousands of Americans) are able to justify this type of torture. 

they support it at Gitmo too.

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Re: Giuliani Flips on Schiavo Case
« Reply #14 on: May 07, 2007, 03:03:29 PM »
It saddens me that otherwise intelligent individuals (Beach & Holmes and thousands of Americans) are able to justify this type of torture. 

But here's the question:

If she was brain dead and could feel no hunger or pain, then why was it necessary to sedate her throughout the almost 2-week process?

---------------

Again, I have no problem with our decision to terminate her life by removing the feeding tube.  But we failed in our obligation to make her death as quick as possible once the final determination was made that her family of origin did not have the right to keep her on life support. 


So it's torture for a person to make her own decision about life? You're about freedoms right? Peoples rights? Do you believe that people should have the right to refuse medical treatment? I do... They exercised their right to refuse medical treatment.

Isn't that what this country is about? If you hold your own breath so you can't breathe, is that also torture? Seems that by your definition, it would be.


they support it at Gitmo too.

No, I don't.... I don't agree with anything going on at Guantanamo.

You guys keep trying to lump people all together... It doesn't work that way.

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Re: Giuliani Flips on Schiavo Case
« Reply #15 on: May 07, 2007, 06:48:49 PM »
No, I don't.... I don't agree with anything going on at Guantanamo.
You guys keep trying to lump people all together... It doesn't work that way.

I was just F'ing with you.  I wish they could just give me a morphine hot shot when I'm dying from cancer of the ass one day, but they'll probably make it a starve so they don't have the moral baggage. 

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Re: Giuliani Flips on Schiavo Case
« Reply #16 on: May 07, 2007, 07:24:49 PM »
I was just F'ing with you.  I wish they could just give me a morphine hot shot when I'm dying from cancer of the ass one day, but they'll probably make it a starve so they don't have the moral baggage. 

They need to install the suicide booths like in futurama.

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Re: Giuliani Flips on Schiavo Case
« Reply #17 on: May 08, 2007, 10:44:01 AM »
So it's torture for a person to make her own decision about life? You're about freedoms right? Peoples rights? Do you believe that people should have the right to refuse medical treatment? I do... They exercised their right to refuse medical treatment.

Isn't that what this country is about? If you hold your own breath so you can't breathe, is that also torture? Seems that by your definition, it would be.


I agree.  It's about personal autonomy.  Everyone has the right to refuse medical treatment, including refusing a feeding tube that requires poking a hole in their stomach. 

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Re: Giuliani Flips on Schiavo Case
« Reply #18 on: May 08, 2007, 11:37:58 AM »
I agree.  It's about personal autonomy.  Everyone has the right to refuse medical treatment, including refusing a feeding tube that requires poking a hole in their stomach. 

A person who says "starve me to death over a 2-week period" isn't thinking rationally.

When a person is thinking or acting irrationally, it's not unusual for a court to intervene and to have a decision-maker designated. 

This is not about personal autonomy.  This is about a society's obligation to provide care and comfort to those who can no longer fend for themselves and to ensure that any 'ultimate choices' are handled in the swiftest, most humane way possible. 

Remove the feeding tube, that's fine, but at the same time, up the dosage of morphine or whathaveyou until her heartbeat slows to a stop and she takes her last breath. 

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Re: Giuliani Flips on Schiavo Case
« Reply #19 on: May 08, 2007, 11:55:39 AM »
A person who says "starve me to death over a 2-week period" isn't thinking rationally.

When a person is thinking or acting irrationally, it's not unusual for a court to intervene and to have a decision-maker designated. 

This is not about personal autonomy.  This is about a society's obligation to provide care and comfort to those who can no longer fend for themselves and to ensure that any 'ultimate choices' are handled in the swiftest, most humane way possible. 

Remove the feeding tube, that's fine, but at the same time, up the dosage of morphine or whathaveyou until her heartbeat slows to a stop and she takes her last breath. 

Are you saying the many people with living wills that say no tube feeding are irrational? 

Re morphine:  you're talking about euthanasia.   

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Re: Giuliani Flips on Schiavo Case
« Reply #20 on: May 08, 2007, 12:10:33 PM »
the line between removing a feeding tube (which will lead to certain death) and pumping a shot of morphine (which will lead to certain death) is so confusing to me.

One is considered humane and kind, but the person dies in two weeks, sometimes painfully.

One is considered murder, but the person dies in two minutes, VERY peacefully.

What an odd world we live in.

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Re: Giuliani Flips on Schiavo Case
« Reply #21 on: May 08, 2007, 02:01:43 PM »
the line between removing a feeding tube (which will lead to certain death) and pumping a shot of morphine (which will lead to certain death) is so confusing to me.

One is considered humane and kind, but the person dies in two weeks, sometimes painfully.

One is considered murder, but the person dies in two minutes, VERY peacefully.

What an odd world we live in.

I think it has much more to do with natural vs. unnatural... injecting morphine is not a "natural" way to die. While unfortunately, starvation is.

While I see points, I don't think anyone has made any compelling argument for me to change my viewpoint on the issue.

Decisions were made (legally), therefore, they were carried out.

Seems quite rational to me...

You're using your heart when you should be using your rational thought... They just don't agree on this one.

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Re: Giuliani Flips on Schiavo Case
« Reply #22 on: May 08, 2007, 02:08:50 PM »
i just see, when the decision is made that this person is to die now... why not do it in the fastest, least painful way?  I know the hero lets the person starve for two weeks, and the murderer helps the person die in two minutes.  It's such an odd problem.

I heard once that 75% of the elderly who die actually die of morphine overdose as they near the end and the doc makes it as painless as possible - they die from the medicine before organ shutdown. I don't know if it's true, but it does seem like a good thing, if so. 

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Re: Giuliani Flips on Schiavo Case
« Reply #23 on: May 08, 2007, 02:17:26 PM »
i just see, when the decision is made that this person is to die now... why not do it in the fastest, least painful way?  I know the hero lets the person starve for two weeks, and the murderer helps the person die in two minutes.  It's such an odd problem.

I heard once that 75% of the elderly who die actually die of morphine overdose as they near the end and the doc makes it as painless as possible - they die from the medicine before organ shutdown. I don't know if it's true, but it does seem like a good thing, if so. 

Not disagreeing on that point... My point was more to the right to refuse medical treatment.

She didn't want to be on life support, so they took her off.

If Euthanasia was allowed, this would be a moot point and she could have received the Morphine.

It's a legal issue... I myself, am personally fine with easing the death process, but since it's illegal to do that, she had to starve.

I didn't make it illegal.

I also think that if someone wants to refuse medical "treatment" that is their right to do so as well.

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Re: Giuliani Flips on Schiavo Case
« Reply #24 on: May 08, 2007, 03:12:47 PM »
good points.   i hope when the day comes, the doc sends me into the light stoned and happy :)