It has begun!

[Luv2Hurt]

Overload, I've been training for 8 months anywhere from 5-6 days a week. Initially (for first 7 months) I was following the retarded principle of 8-10 reps @ 4 sets and started to plateau.

Retarded principle? Been training for 8 months. Started to plateau?  I just don't know what to say.

[BodyMachine]

I meant it as "the word of God". Meaning, because I got the idea from a magazine I was in the mind set that 8-10 reps must be the only way to lift to get big. Since joining the forum I've learned otherwise. Regarding the weight, yes I started to plateau in the sense that I had difficulty benching anything more then 145-150lb at 8 reps, part of which was a mental thing. Add to that the fact that I stuck to the same exact movements the entire period of time and yeah the combination wasn't optimal. Hence the reason I switched to lower reps higher weight. Bottom line, I'm very open minded, and looking for advice from you guys to maximize my efforts. It has been an amazing journey so far. I went from hating working out to loving it.

[trab]

Retarded principle? Been training for 8 months. Started to plateau?  I just don't know what to say.

He was seriously Overtraining luv. He was doing like a Schwartzenager pre olympia routine DAILY!
He also very lean.

BodyMachine Luv knows his crap too. Everyone trains different. Each body react different.
With the low rep heavy stuff, it's a fasst track to strength and some solid mass. Most dudes cant pound away non stop at it.
  Like if you rev a engine to redline nostop - IT BLOWS. Need cycle training also.
Very few guys can pound nonstop like Ronnie Coleman did. Even w/ buckets of drugs.

Id check out what Overload likes too, He's prolly out of town.

The Magazines have done A HUGE DISSERVICE to young lifters, deluding them taht if they only copy
a pros precontest workout and diet, they will look same. It's total BULL SHIT!
Those guys are genetic freaks and on so much drugs it'd blow your mind.

[SWOLETRAIN]

He was seriously Overtraining luv. He was doing like a Schwartzenager pre olympia routine DAILY!
He also very lean.

BodyMachine Luv knows his crap too. Everyone trains different. Each body react different.
With the low rep heavy stuff, it's a fasst track to strength and some solid mass. Most dudes cant pound away non stop at it.
  Like if you rev a engine to redline nostop - IT BLOWS. Need cycle training also.
Very few guys can pound nonstop like Ronnie Coleman did. Even w/ buckets of drugs.

Id check out what Overload likes too, He's prolly out of town.

The Magazines have done A HUGE DISSERVICE to young lifters, deluding them taht if they only copy
a pros precontest workout and diet, they will look same. It's total BULL SHIT!
Those guys are genetic freaks and on so much drugs it'd blow your mind.

Awesome post, i couldnt agree more. I manage a supplement store in orange county CA. So So many teenagers come in telling me they're following these bullshit programs they found in flex M&F etc, and i have to tell them. Dude your only 17yrs old, and natural, you cant train shoulders in the morning and arms at night. 6on 1 off. I just doesnt work that way.

[Arnold jr]

"Lets think about how our muscle grow for a minute. When we break down muscle fibers, these fibers eventually have to repair themselves and make themselves stronger so that they can withstand even more "force" the next time. When doing a set of Bench Presses, which set do you think results in the most GROWTH? Obviously, the heaviest set in which you get at least 4-6 reps since it's THIS SET that results in the most fiber activation and thus fiber damage. If you can perform this HEAVY, INTENSE, SET during your bench press workout after 1 warmup or after 4 warmups, does it really matter? Of course not, the end results is still the same! Therefore, why do 4 sets for a particular exercise when you can do 1 or 2 and get the same OUTCOME? If you do 4 or 5 sets, all you're "adding" is the chance to overtrain and overtax the nervous system (which is exactly what the term "overtraining" means-- to exhaust all the neurotransmitters in the nerves so that now they have trouble telling the muscles how to contract). ARTHUR JONES, MIKE MENTZER, DORIAN YATES, and myself all believe that if you can maximally stimulate the muscle in less sets, you'll grow just as easily and you'll be less likely to overtrain (exhaust the nervous system)."

...I'll give you one guess.

[SWOLETRAIN]

i agree to an extent of that. For longevity purposes that style of training is not optimal. I prefer "jaycutler/Milos style" heavy enough, volume/ training using speed to take the muscle to failure. I do beleive their is a proper time for HIT such ass offseason. The muscle density/size  achieved by HIT is unique, and therefore it is important. But its too dangerous in the long run IMO. All of its followers have fallen apart and battle injuries. Ronnie, Dorian, Branch, Fux, the list goes on

[trab]

"Lets think about how our muscle grow for a minute. When we break down muscle fibers, these fibers eventually have to repair themselves and make themselves stronger so that they can withstand even more "force" the next time. When doing a set of Bench Presses, which set do you think results in the most GROWTH? Obviously, the heaviest set in which you get at least 4-6 reps since it's THIS SET that results in the most fiber activation and thus fiber damage. If you can perform this HEAVY, INTENSE, SET during your bench press workout after 1 warmup or after 4 warmups, does it really matter? Of course not, the end results is still the same! Therefore, why do 4 sets for a particular exercise when you can do 1 or 2 and get the same OUTCOME? If you do 4 or 5 sets, all you're "adding" is the chance to overtrain and overtax the nervous system (which is exactly what the term "overtraining" means-- to exhaust all the neurotransmitters in the nerves so that now they have trouble telling the muscles how to contract). ARTHUR JONES, MIKE MENTZER, DORIAN YATES, and myself all believe that if you can maximally stimulate the muscle in less sets, you'll grow just as easily and you'll be less likely to overtrain (exhaust the nervous system)."

...I'll give you one guess.

Aj is that Daves style? Ive never read his training ideas come to think.
The striking thing about him is hes very insightfull. Seems like a really smart,cool guy.

[Arnold jr]

Aj is that Daves style? Ive never read his training ideas come to think.
The striking thing about him is hes very insightfull. Seems like a really smart,cool guy.

Yes it is. Although the above is just a brief little tid bit of information. His style of training is not exactly HIT per say, simply because more sets are involved then the typical HIT routines by way of multiple exercises/multiple angles...it's simply fewer sets per exercise. It's also tweaked, just like anything else according to individual response, to a degree...what works best.

[Luv2Hurt]

I meant it as "the word of God". Meaning, because I got the idea from a magazine I was in the mind set that 8-10 reps must be the only way to lift to get big. Since joining the forum I've learned otherwise. Regarding the weight, yes I started to plateau in the sense that I had difficulty benching anything more then 145-150lb at 8 reps, part of which was a mental thing. Add to that the fact that I stuck to the same exact movements the entire period of time and yeah the combination wasn't optimal. Hence the reason I switched to lower reps higher weight. Bottom line, I'm very open minded, and looking for advice from you guys to maximize my efforts. It has been an amazing journey so far. I went from hating working out to loving it.

Well I guess the point I was trying to make is that you are just getting into it and to say one method at this point is retarded seems a little premature.  Very cool you are into training and welcome aboard.  I think you will find over the years to come that plateaus are quite common and part of the game.  Smart on your part to have switched things up when you plateaued.  I think you will also find that different training styles will be usefull as you progress.  So all I'm saying is keep an open mind and try different things out to find out what works best.  remember what works best now may not work as well down the road.  I have always felt that hard, heavy training needs to be used to build a solid foundation and to maintain it too.

I feel training in varied rep schemes in one session is the best.  Maybe you are doing a few sets of 5-8 reps in your big compound moves, who says you also cant throw in a couple sets in the 12-15 range?  This works ALL the muscle fibers and is quite draining, gives a nice pump also.  Its pyramiding and is a good method, gets you warmed up right and lets you really pump up at the end, paying particular attention to form and squeezing the muscle.

Most people undertrain, so I like more volume with good intensity and focus.  But yes big weights with good form builds big bodies

[Overload]

Overload, I've been training for 8 months anywhere from 5-6 days a week. Initially (for first 7 months) I was following the retarded principle of 8-10 reps @ 4 sets and started to plateau. Now I try to lift as heavy as possible for 4-5 sets @ 4-5 reps and then throw in a 1 rep max, which is only at 205lb. 4-5 days latter I perform speed presses, 8 sets @ 4 reps @ 120lbs. I don't know if my routine is actually any good. Can you give me tips on improving my routine to get big and strong fast? Also, is it normal on speed day to feel like it was a breeze?

5-6 days is too much IMO. i train 4 days a week and do cardio one day.

Nothing wrong with 8-10 reps @ 4 sets. how's your diet?

NEVER max out! i only max out in competition. do triples and doubles with 80% of your max, be explosive and don't do any forced reps. smooth controlled reps.

Speed work is good but 8 sets is overkill IMO, even with 120 pounds. speed day should feel easier, i do speed bench before shoulders, 3 days after chest day. 4 sets of 5 explosive reps should be enough.

i don't know if your routine is good either, care to post it?

Big and strong fast? i wish i knew brother, it's taken me almost 10 years to get where i'm at.

You can google "powerlifting bench form" and it will lay out how to arch and tuck your elbows. westside barbell and metal militia have good setups.

i wish i had more time to answer, today is a busy day, i'll try to get back with you when i can.

[BodyMachine]

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[Overload]

That looks pretty good, i'd throw in some machine or DB pullovers on back day, i like to superset them with chins.

Here is my routine.

Mon - Chest/Biceps
Heavy BB bench
Incline DB bench
Cable flyes - rest pause sets DC style
DB curls
DB hammer curls

Tues - Legs/abs
Heavy squats
Front squats - high reps
Leg extensions
Ham curls
Standing calf raises
Rope crunches
Weighted crunch machine

Weds - cardio
Swim for an hour, medium pace

Thur - Shoulder/triceps
Speed Bench - close grip
Overhead DB press
Upright rows
Behind the head DB extension
Cable press downs

Fri - Back/abs
Heavy floor deadlifts
Weighted chins - rest pause DC style
one arm DB rows
Machine pullovers superset with reverse grip pulldowns
abs are the same

pretty simple huh? i don't follow a pure powerlifting routine anymore, just a powerlifting rep sceme for the 3 big lifts, everything else is more of a bodybuilding routine.

just keep training hard, don't get frustrated, just keep training like a beast!

[trab]

If you look at his pics, he's made real fast progress. Super bony to start.
Its like.. You never seen a bulky prisoner of war camp laborer no matter how hard they worked them, right?

You seem to be holding up to the changes well, thriving actually.
But, keep in mind that Delts take a beating in bench AND shoulder work, your  tagging them 2x with chest alone.

Along the same line, biceps (tendons in particular) take a whooping on back day. esp if you probe towards max #'s. Max deads have blown many a bicep too.

Ditto for low back re: Squat and Dead (even leg press)

Ideally if we can recover, the more often and heavier we train the faster we gain. But not many hold up long at 2x per Bodypart with high intensity. Only 1 Ronnie, and it seems to have run its course w/ him.

The second you feel low energy, lethargic, uninspired towards workouts... Cut back awhile.
Keep the prime mover exercises only going unless something is tweaked. Work around nagging stuff. Switch to something that don't bother it. The real key is staying on a roll and not hurting self as long as you can.

Watch big guys train (and eat) if you can. Lot of different lifting styles, check out plenty.
Your progress is real good. Shit, it'd make a good steroid, ... oops, I mean SUPLEMENT advt Photo. 

[BodyMachine]

If you look at his pics, he's made real fast progress. Super bony to start.
Its like.. You never seen a bulky prisoner of war camp laborer no matter how hard they worked them, right?

You seem to be holding up to the changes well, thriving actually.
But, keep in mind that Delts take a beating in bench AND shoulder work, your  tagging them 2x with chest alone.

Along the same line, biceps (tendons in particular) take a whooping on back day. esp if you probe towards max #'s. Max deads have blown many a bicep too.

Ditto for low back re: Squat and Dead (even leg press)

Ideally if we can recover, the more often and heavier we train the faster we gain. But not many hold up long at 2x per Bodypart with high intensity. Only 1 Ronnie, and it seems to have run its course w/ him.

The second you feel low energy, lethargic, uninspired towards workouts... Cut back awhile.
Keep the prime mover exercises only going unless something is tweaked. Work around nagging stuff. Switch to something that don't bother it. The real key is staying on a roll and not hurting self as long as you can.

Watch big guys train (and eat) if you can. Lot of different lifting styles, check out plenty.
Your progress is real good. Shit, it'd make a good steroid, ... oops, I mean SUPLEMENT advt Photo. 

Thanks for the compliment Trab. My mindset has certainly changed in the past few weeks from all the great advice I'd been given. One example is listening to my body and getting more rest, before I was so brainwashed by the magazines that no matter how I felt, I made it a point to go to the gym and bust it (twice per day even!) and it was a mistake. Oh well, at least I learned better. I'm so grateful I found this board and getting advice from guys that really know their stuff.

That looks pretty good, i'd throw in some machine or DB pullovers on back day, i like to superset them with chins.

Here is my routine.

Mon - Chest/Biceps
Heavy BB bench
Incline DB bench
Cable flyes - rest pause sets DC style
DB curls
DB hammer curls

Tues - Legs/abs
Heavy squats
Front squats - high reps
Leg extensions
Ham curls
Standing calf raises
Rope crunches
Weighted crunch machine

Weds - cardio
Swim for an hour, medium pace

Thur - Shoulder/triceps
Speed Bench - close grip
Overhead DB press
Upright rows
Behind the head DB extension
Cable press downs

Fri - Back/abs
Heavy floor deadlifts
Weighted chins - rest pause DC style
one arm DB rows
Machine pullovers superset with reverse grip pulldowns
abs are the same

pretty simple huh? i don't follow a pure powerlifting routine anymore, just a powerlifting rep sceme for the 3 big lifts, everything else is more of a bodybuilding routine.

just keep training hard, don't get frustrated, just keep training like a beast!

Thanks Overload. I will alternate mine with yours so that I avoid performing the same routine week after week. Definitely good stuff.