Author Topic: Does the means justify the ends in this case?  (Read 1646 times)

OzmO

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Does the means justify the ends in this case?
« on: June 27, 2007, 11:32:08 AM »
You uncle is a alcoholic and wants you to give him a beer in your fridge.    Instead of fighting with him, you lie to him and tell him you have no beer in the house when in fact you do.

Are you sinning here?

This might not be the best example but, what I'm getting it is:

Is it ok to lie to someone to prevent them from hurting themselves?   How does the Bible see this?

Butterbean

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Re: Does the means justify the ends in this case?
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2007, 02:18:40 PM »
It seems like every lie I can think of from the bible was considered bad but one: 

Joshua 2
 
Then Joshua son of Nun secretly sent two spies from Shittim. "Go, look over the land," he said, "especially Jericho." So they went and entered the house of a prostitute named Rahab and stayed there.
The king of Jericho was told, "Look! Some of the Israelites have come here tonight to spy out the land." So the king of Jericho sent this message to Rahab: "Bring out the men who came to you and entered your house, because they have come to spy out the whole land."

But the woman had taken the two men and hidden them. She said, "Yes, the men came to me, but I did not know where they had come from. At dusk, when it was time to close the city gate, the men left. I don't know which way they went. Go after them quickly. You may catch up with them."  (But she had taken them up to the roof and hidden them under the stalks of flax she had laid out on the roof.) So the men set out in pursuit of the spies on the road that leads to the fords of the Jordan, and as soon as the pursuers had gone out, the gate was shut.

Before the spies lay down for the night, she went up on the roof and said to them, "I know that the LORD has given this land to you and that a great fear of you has fallen on us, so that all who live in this country are melting in fear because of you.  We have heard how the LORD dried up the water of the Red Sea for you when you came out of Egypt, and what you did to Sihon and Og, the two kings of the Amorites east of the Jordan, whom you completely destroyed.  When we heard of it, our hearts melted and everyone's courage failed because of you, for the LORD your God is God in heaven above and on the earth below.  Now then, please swear to me by the LORD that you will show kindness to my family, because I have shown kindness to you. Give me a sure sign that you will spare the lives of my father and mother, my brothers and sisters, and all who belong to them, and that you will save us from death."

 "Our lives for your lives!" the men assured her. "If you don't tell what we are doing, we will treat you kindly and faithfully when the LORD gives us the land."

So she let them down by a rope through the window, for the house she lived in was part of the city wall. 16 Now she had said to them, "Go to the hills so the pursuers will not find you. Hide yourselves there three days until they return, and then go on your way."

The men said to her, "This oath you made us swear will not be binding on us unless, when we enter the land, you have tied this scarlet cord in the window through which you let us down, and unless you have brought your father and mother, your brothers and all your family into your house.  If anyone goes outside your house into the street, his blood will be on his own head; we will not be responsible. As for anyone who is in the house with you, his blood will be on our head if a hand is laid on him.  But if you tell what we are doing, we will be released from the oath you made us swear."

"Agreed," she replied. "Let it be as you say." So she sent them away and they departed. And she tied the scarlet cord in the window.

When they left, they went into the hills and stayed there three days, until the pursuers had searched all along the road and returned without finding them.  Then the two men started back. They went down out of the hills, forded the river and came to Joshua son of Nun and told him everything that had happened to them.  They said to Joshua, "The LORD has surely given the whole land into our hands; all the people are melting in fear because of us."




Here is what my Ryrie study bible says about it:  Rahab's actions, though not in conformity w/the scriptural prohibition against lying, were evidence that she believed the God of Israel was the true God.  The Bible commends her faith, not her lying (Heb 11:31, James 2:25).  God's grace is remarkably demonstrated in giving her faith, sparing her, and including her in the messianic line.



My personal thought about the uncle is if you really don't want to be truthful that you aren't comfortable giving him a beer, you could "Clintonize" your response by going to the fridge, closing your eyes and telling him you don't "see" any beer.  :)
R

Dos Equis

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Re: Does the means justify the ends in this case?
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2007, 03:59:02 PM »

My personal thought about the uncle is if you really don't want to be truthful that you aren't comfortable giving him a beer, you could "Clintonize" your response by going to the fridge, closing your eyes and telling him you don't "see" any beer.  :)

lol . . . . I'm going to steal this one.   :D

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Re: Does the means justify the ends in this case?
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2007, 05:38:00 AM »
It seems like every lie I can think of from the bible was considered bad but one: 

Joshua 2
 
Then Joshua son of Nun secretly sent two spies from Shittim. "Go, look over the land," he said, "especially Jericho." So they went and entered the house of a prostitute named Rahab and stayed there.
The king of Jericho was told, "Look! Some of the Israelites have come here tonight to spy out the land." So the king of Jericho sent this message to Rahab: "Bring out the men who came to you and entered your house, because they have come to spy out the whole land."

But the woman had taken the two men and hidden them. She said, "Yes, the men came to me, but I did not know where they had come from. At dusk, when it was time to close the city gate, the men left. I don't know which way they went. Go after them quickly. You may catch up with them."  (But she had taken them up to the roof and hidden them under the stalks of flax she had laid out on the roof.) So the men set out in pursuit of the spies on the road that leads to the fords of the Jordan, and as soon as the pursuers had gone out, the gate was shut.

Before the spies lay down for the night, she went up on the roof and said to them, "I know that the LORD has given this land to you and that a great fear of you has fallen on us, so that all who live in this country are melting in fear because of you.  We have heard how the LORD dried up the water of the Red Sea for you when you came out of Egypt, and what you did to Sihon and Og, the two kings of the Amorites east of the Jordan, whom you completely destroyed.  When we heard of it, our hearts melted and everyone's courage failed because of you, for the LORD your God is God in heaven above and on the earth below.  Now then, please swear to me by the LORD that you will show kindness to my family, because I have shown kindness to you. Give me a sure sign that you will spare the lives of my father and mother, my brothers and sisters, and all who belong to them, and that you will save us from death."

 "Our lives for your lives!" the men assured her. "If you don't tell what we are doing, we will treat you kindly and faithfully when the LORD gives us the land."

So she let them down by a rope through the window, for the house she lived in was part of the city wall. 16 Now she had said to them, "Go to the hills so the pursuers will not find you. Hide yourselves there three days until they return, and then go on your way."

The men said to her, "This oath you made us swear will not be binding on us unless, when we enter the land, you have tied this scarlet cord in the window through which you let us down, and unless you have brought your father and mother, your brothers and all your family into your house.  If anyone goes outside your house into the street, his blood will be on his own head; we will not be responsible. As for anyone who is in the house with you, his blood will be on our head if a hand is laid on him.  But if you tell what we are doing, we will be released from the oath you made us swear."

"Agreed," she replied. "Let it be as you say." So she sent them away and they departed. And she tied the scarlet cord in the window.

When they left, they went into the hills and stayed there three days, until the pursuers had searched all along the road and returned without finding them.  Then the two men started back. They went down out of the hills, forded the river and came to Joshua son of Nun and told him everything that had happened to them.  They said to Joshua, "The LORD has surely given the whole land into our hands; all the people are melting in fear because of us."




Here is what my Ryrie study bible says about it:  Rahab's actions, though not in conformity w/the scriptural prohibition against lying, were evidence that she believed the God of Israel was the true God.  The Bible commends her faith, not her lying (Heb 11:31, James 2:25).  God's grace is remarkably demonstrated in giving her faith, sparing her, and including her in the messianic line.



My personal thought about the uncle is if you really don't want to be truthful that you aren't comfortable giving him a beer, you could "Clintonize" your response by going to the fridge, closing your eyes and telling him you don't "see" any beer.  :)

Interesting perspective STella, ...In this time of war, I can't help but to wonder how many in your nation would actually glorify a treasonous whore? Let's face it, bottom line is that's what she was, ...yet you appear to think it wonderful because she believes as you do. I hope extremist terrorists don't show up in your town. From what you've written, one might reasonably conclude you'd be willing to harbour & shelter them, maybe even cut your own personal protection deal with them? Heck STella, why stop there, ...you could prostitute yourself, ...and be just like her.

WooHoo! Would you enjoy that? Are you part of the crowd racing head first towards Armageddon?
Working feverishly towards an all-out nuclear confrontation on the hills of Meggido, in order to hasten 'the rapture'?
w

Colossus_500

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Re: Does the means justify the ends in this case?
« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2007, 06:26:41 AM »
Interesting perspective STella, ...In this time of war, I can't help but to wonder how many in your nation would actually glorify a treasonous whore? Let's face it, bottom line is that's what she was, ...yet you appear to think it wonderful because she believes as you do. I hope extremist terrorists don't show up in your town. From what you've written, one might reasonably conclude you'd be willing to harbour & shelter them, maybe even cut your own personal protection deal with them? Heck STella, why stop there, ...you could prostitute yourself, ...and be just like her.

WooHoo! Would you enjoy that? Are you part of the crowd racing head first towards Armageddon?
Working feverishly towards an all-out nuclear confrontation on the hills of Meggido, in order to hasten 'the rapture'?
::)  Jag, you're such a drama queen sometimes.   ::)

Butterbean

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Re: Does the means justify the ends in this case?
« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2007, 06:27:36 AM »

Gosh Jag, sounds like you're having a bad day :( 

...In this time of war, I can't help but to wonder how many in your nation would actually glorify a treasonous whore?
I'd say depending on someone's perception of what a whore is, this happens all the time.

Let's face it, bottom line is that's what she was, ...yet you appear to think it wonderful because she believes as you do.

How did you get out of my post that I appear to think it wonderful  ???

From what you've written, one might reasonably conclude you'd be willing to harbour & shelter them, maybe even cut your own personal protection deal with them?

Again, where did you get that from me pasting scripture and footnotes from a Study Bible?


Heck STella, why stop there, ...you could prostitute yourself, ...and be just like her.

This is a pretty bizarre comment...can't really tell where it came from.



WooHoo! Would you enjoy that? Are you part of the crowd racing head first towards Armageddon?
Working feverishly towards an all-out nuclear confrontation on the hills of Meggido, in order to hasten 'the rapture'?
 

I think you may need to read some scripture because these statements also lead me to believe you are strangely misinformed.   :-\
R

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Re: Does the means justify the ends in this case?
« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2007, 09:23:38 AM »
::)  Jag, you're such a drama queen sometimes.   ::)

Sometimes??   :-\

Colossus_500

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Re: Does the means justify the ends in this case?
« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2007, 09:29:33 AM »
Sometimes??   :-\
I was trying to be nice.   ;) ;D

Dos Equis

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Re: Does the means justify the ends in this case?
« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2007, 09:34:09 AM »
I was trying to be nice.   ;) ;D

Me too, which is why I didn't mention the irony of Jag's prostitution reference, when she has been prostituting her products all over this board.   :)

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Re: Does the means justify the ends in this case?
« Reply #9 on: July 31, 2007, 09:54:27 AM »
Me too, which is why I didn't mention the irony of Jag's prostitution reference, when she has been prostituting her products all over this board.   :)

Actually you have STella to thank for that.
w

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Re: Does the means justify the ends in this case?
« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2007, 09:55:41 AM »
Gosh Jag, sounds like you're having a bad day :( 
I'd say depending on someone's perception of what a whore is, this happens all the time.

How did you get out of my post that I appear to think it wonderful  ???
Again, where did you get that from me pasting scripture and footnotes from a Study Bible?

This is a pretty bizarre comment...can't really tell where it came from.
 

I think you may need to read some scripture because these statements also lead me to believe you are strangely misinformed.   :-\

STella, I have a feeling that if I explained it to you, you wouldn't get it anyway.  :-\  Just a feeling I have
w

Butterbean

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Re: Does the means justify the ends in this case?
« Reply #11 on: July 31, 2007, 09:57:33 AM »
Actually you have STella to thank for that.

Now I see why your underwear is all in a bundle.  It'll be OK Jag.

STella, I have a feeling that if I explained it to you, you wouldn't get it anyway.  :-\  Just a feeling I have


 ::)
R