Can Atheists Be Saved?

[Dos Equis]

A friend of mine who is a recent convert from Protestantism to Catholicism shared this with me.  A quote from Cardinal Avery Dulles:

He was answering the question, Who, then, can be saved? In addition to Catholics, he wrote that “Other Christians can be saved if they submit their lives to Christ and join the community where they think he wills to be found. Jews can be saved if they look forward in hope to the Messiah and try to ascertain whether God’s promise has been fulfilled. Adherents of other religions can be saved if, with the help of grace, they sincerely seek God and strive to do his will. Even atheists can be saved if they worship God under some other name and place their lives at the service of truth and justice. God’s saving grace, channeled through Christ the one Mediator, leaves no one unassisted.”

I've never thought about this, but I tend to agree.  Do you Christians agree?  Disagree?

[Butterbean]

A friend of mine who is a recent convert from Protestantism to Catholicism shared this with me.  A quote from Cardinal Avery Dulles:

He was answering the question, Who, then, can be saved? In addition to Catholics, he wrote that “Other Christians can be saved if they submit their lives to Christ and join the community where they think he wills to be found. Jews can be saved if they look forward in hope to the Messiah and try to ascertain whether God’s promise has been fulfilled. Adherents of other religions can be saved if, with the help of grace, they sincerely seek God and strive to do his will. Even atheists can be saved if they worship God under some other name and place their lives at the service of truth and justice. God’s saving grace, channeled through Christ the one Mediator, leaves no one unassisted.”

I've never thought about this, but I tend to agree.  Do you Christians agree?  Disagree?

In some of the above scenarios it sounds like your friend's equation is God's grace + works = salvation.  If that is what he is saying, I don't agree with him.  I believe the bible which says "we are saved by grace through faith and not of works so that no one can boast" Eph 2:8,9.

That being said, I believe anyone can get saved, including atheists.  My friend is a former atheist but now has faith in Christ as her savior.

Why did your friend convert from Protestantism to Catholicism Beach?

[Dos Equis]

In some of the above scenarios it sounds like your friend's equation is God's grace + works = salvation.  If that is what he is saying, I don't agree with him.  I believe the bible which says "we are saved by grace through faith and not of works so that no one can boast" Eph 2:8,9.

That being said, I believe anyone can get saved, including atheists.  My friend is a former atheist but now has faith in Christ as her savior.

Why did your friend convert from Protestantism to Catholicism Beach?

He had disagreements with his church's teachings.  Created quite a stir, because he was an ordained minister with a theology degree.  Also a lawyer turned judge.  We just had lunch last week and I wanted to hear from him (rather than what we call the coconut wireless) why he converted.  Among other things, he said today's Catholic church isn't the same church that was the target of the Reformation.  Much of the things Martin Luther protested against have been abandoned.  I didn't know this. 

His focus is on living a Christian life, taking care of his family, and getting ready for the second coming.  He wanted to get away from trying to convert people into particular denominations.  He wanted to find a church that was closest to the original Christian church and that was big enough to accommodate his beliefs without being tied to church (rather than Biblical) doctrine.  I'm not sure he found it, but he is sincere. 

He sent me a very long e-mail with complicated theological stuff.  I can post excerpts if you like.   

[Butterbean]

He sent me a very long e-mail with complicated theological stuff.  I can post excerpts if you like.   

Sure if you think that would be OK w/him thanks Beach

[Hedgehog]

Even atheists can be saved if they worship God under some other name and place their lives at the service of truth and justice. God’s saving grace, channeled through Christ the one Mediator, leaves no one unassisted.”

I've never thought about this, but I tend to agree.  Do you Christians agree?  Disagree?

By definition, an Atheist doesn't worship any God.

So they cannot be saved.

Perhaps Avery Dulles is confusing Atheists with religious people of other faiths such as Muslims, Hindus, et al.

[Dos Equis]

Sure if you think that would be OK w/him thanks Beach

It's really long, so I'll post redacted sections a little at a time.

Evangelism / Ecumenism. I believe in leading people to Christ. Sharing Christ with people who do not know Jesus Christ is a joy. The Great Commission calls us to go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and teaching them to observe all that I have commanded. It doesn’t say go and find other Christians who disagree with you on incidental doctrines, convince them to see it your way, re-baptize them if they were baptized in the wrong denomination, and then make sure they observe the Ten Commandments with the strictness of our Judaic heritage. Yet look at what our overseas evangelism teaches, preaches, and encourages.

I no longer believe in convincing Christians of one denomination to join another denomination. Convincing other sincere Christians to change denominations is not something I believe in any longer. I participated in a number of evangelistic crusades overseas, where we took devout Christians of another Christian denomination and made them [his denomination].  That's no longer part of my Christian life. I have moved from a model where success was defined by numbers (of baptisms, tithe dollars received, evangelistic crusades conducted, cell churches formed) to where success is defined by faithfulness to the person of Jesus Christ (rather than denominationalism), a personal commitment to the Christian walk, and witness to one’s own family not through theological propositions but through love, grace, peace, and mercy.

. . .
 
I believe in ecumenism – uplifting, encouraging all Christians of faith, regardless of denomination. As one dictionary put it, ecumenism is “promoting unity among Christian churches or denominations,” and that does not mean causing others to see eye to eye with me theologically on 100% of the doctrines 100% of the time.

My mission field is my wife and kids, and I just want to love them as Jesus loves them. Changing their theology is not central to that. They don’t need to change from [my old denomination] to any other type of Christian expression. It would be like demanding all Americans become Republicans in order to be true Americans. I am committed to praying that all Christians simply love and serve Christ more faithfully from within their own various Christian communities, whether Protestant or Catholic.

There is an ancient prayer attributed to St. Anselm, and it means a lot to me: “Lord, I do not presume to fathom the depths of your truths, for my understanding is not equal to the task. Nevertheless, I desire to learn Your truths in some measure ….”

[OzmO]

I bet dollars to donuts there is something in the Bible that says they can only be saved through Jesus.

[Dos Equis]

More:

Origins. I do not believe Genesis 1 and 2 are primarily concerned with the literal, historical, or scientific facts of the creation of the world. Genesis is about the theology of Creation – all that is, seen and unseen, has its origin in God’s creative work. We are not here by accident, chance, or dumb luck. We are the handiwork of the Creator. Genesis is true in the most important and richest sense. There is nothing that scientific research has uncovered or can uncover in the future that can render the truth about God the Creator as questionable. Catholics leave the mundane historical details of our world’s origins to biologists, geologists, paleontologists, etc. The world may have indeed been created in seven literal 24-hour periods, but the text does not require that view. That’s my position. I think the Catholic Church learned from the mistakes made during Galileo’s situation: don’t over-read the text, don’t read into it more than is there. . . . Pope John Paul II has said that certain forms of theistic evolutionary theory are consistent with Genesis chapters 1 and 2. I concur.


I’m not saying that my position is the only logical, rational, or correct interpretation of the truths God has revealed on this point. But I am saying that my position is sincerely held, is contrary to [his church's] position, and yet is not inconsistent with the Catholic position.

[Hustle Man]

I bet dollars to donuts there is something in the Bible that says they can only be saved through Jesus.

Acts 4:11-13

11 This Jesus is the stone that was rejected by you, the builders, which has become the cornerstone.
12 And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."
13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were uneducated, common men, they were astonished. And they recognized that they had been with Jesus.

HM

[Deicide]

Acts 4:11-13

11 This Jesus[a] is the stone that was rejected by you, the builders, which has become the cornerstone.
12 And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."
13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were uneducated, common men, they were astonished. And they recognized that they had been with Jesus.

HM

Bingo.

[Dos Equis]

More:

Scripture/Tradition . . .  Protestants hold to sola Scriptura. Yet sola Scriptura appears nowhere in Scripture. Believing that all Scripture is inspired is not the same thing as saying only Scripture is inspired. Decades passed after the crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus Christ. The word of God was there present in their preaching and teaching long before it was committed to writing. Christ came to found a church, not enumerate what texts would constitute Scripture. He founded a church rather than defined a canon. He left that to future generations to determine under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Interestingly, [some Protestant church writings] . . . function the same way . . . as the writings of the church fathers, the creeds, and the documents of Vatican II function within Catholic theology. . . .  In a sense, Catholics read Scripture through the lens of the history of the church and through the creeds and the important church documents . . . .  Tradition means handing down, and I believe God can speak to us through oral transmissions as effectively as through written transmissions. And the Holy Spirit is capable of safeguarding both.

[OTHstrong]

A friend of mine who is a recent convert from Protestantism to Catholicism shared this with me.  A quote from Cardinal Avery Dulles:

He was answering the question, Who, then, can be saved? In addition to Catholics, he wrote that “Other Christians can be saved if they submit their lives to Christ and join the community where they think he wills to be found. Jews can be saved if they look forward in hope to the Messiah and try to ascertain whether God’s promise has been fulfilled. Adherents of other religions can be saved if, with the help of grace, they sincerely seek God and strive to do his will. Even atheists can be saved if they worship God under some other name and place their lives at the service of truth and justice. God’s saving grace, channeled through Christ the one Mediator, leaves no one unassisted.”

I've never thought about this, but I tend to agree.  Do you Christians agree?  Disagree?

Interesting. I strongly disagree.

[loco]

A friend of mine who is a recent convert from Protestantism to Catholicism shared this with me.  A quote from Cardinal Avery Dulles:

He was answering the question, Who, then, can be saved? In addition to Catholics, he wrote that “Other Christians can be saved if they submit their lives to Christ and join the community where they think he wills to be found. Jews can be saved if they look forward in hope to the Messiah and try to ascertain whether God’s promise has been fulfilled. Adherents of other religions can be saved if, with the help of grace, they sincerely seek God and strive to do his will. Even atheists can be saved if they worship God under some other name and place their lives at the service of truth and justice. God’s saving grace, channeled through Christ the one Mediator, leaves no one unassisted.”

I've never thought about this, but I tend to agree.  Do you Christians agree?  Disagree?

The above contradicts scripture.  So in order to agree with that, a Christian would have to choose the Cardinal's words to be true and the Bible to be false. 

John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Acts 4:12
"Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."

Matthew 28:19
"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit"

John 3:16
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."

John 6:28-29
Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"
Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

[Butterbean]

I no longer believe in convincing Christians of one denomination to join another denomination. Convincing other sincere Christians to change denominations is not something I believe in any longer. I participated in a number of evangelistic crusades overseas, where we took devout Christians of another Christian denomination and made them [his denomination].  That's no longer part of my Christian life. I have moved from a model where success was defined by numbers (of baptisms, tithe dollars received, evangelistic crusades conducted, cell churches formed) to where success is defined by faithfulness to the person of Jesus Christ (rather than denominationalism), a personal commitment to the Christian walk, and witness to one’s own family not through theological propositions but through love, grace, peace, and mercy.

.

Beach, I noticed you purposely left out your friend's former denomination.  But I am very interested in what it was because I've never heard of a denomination being so intent on getting people to change denominations except for cults (which I don't consider Christian).

If you absolutely don't want to share what it is that's fine...but you can also PM me

More:

Scripture/Tradition . . .  Protestants hold to sola Scriptura. Yet sola Scriptura appears nowhere in Scripture. Believing that all Scripture is inspired is not the same thing as saying only Scripture is inspired.

Maybe I'm not sure what he means here but this scripture came to mind:

2 Tim 3:16
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness..

. . . .  Tradition means handing down, and I believe God can speak to us through oral transmissions as effectively as through written transmissions. And the Holy Spirit is capable of safeguarding both.

I agree that the Holy Spirit is capable...but aren't there traditions that have changed over the years?  Plus there a lot of Catholic Church traditions that conflict w/scripture...such as praying to dead people etc.


Beach I hope you know we're not disrespecting your friend we are just interested in his change.  Thank you for sharing this stuff w/us.  I'm very interested in his former denom!

[Deicide]

Beach, I noticed you purposely left out your friend's former denomination.  But I am very interested in what it was because I've never heard of a denomination being so intent on getting people to change denominations except for cults (which I don't consider Christian).

If you absolutely don't want to share what it is that's fine...but you can also PM me



Maybe I'm not sure what he means here but this scripture came to mind:

2 Tim 3:16
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness..

I agree that the Holy Spirit is capable...but aren't there traditions that have changed over the years?  Plus there a lot of Catholic Church traditions that conflict w/scripture...such as praying to dead people etc.


Beach I hope you know we're not disrespecting your friend we are just interested in his change.  Thank you for sharing this stuff w/us.  I'm very interested in his former denom!

Why is Christianity not a massively and widely accepted/sanctioned cult? Why don't you consider it to be?

[Dos Equis]

The above contradicts scripture.  So in order to agree with that, a Christian would have to choose the Cardinal's words to be true and the Bible to be false. 

John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Acts 4:12
"Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."

Matthew 28:19
"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit"

John 3:16
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."

John 6:28-29
Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"
Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

Hard to argue with what the Word says loco.

What about those who are never truly exposed to Christianity?  I'm one who believes a person doesn't have to be a Christian to be "saved."  I know it's probably a minority opinion, but I have met a lot of people of different faiths (or no faith) who I believe are good people. 

[Dos Equis]

Beach, I noticed you purposely left out your friend's former denomination.  But I am very interested in what it was because I've never heard of a denomination being so intent on getting people to change denominations except for cults (which I don't consider Christian).

If you absolutely don't want to share what it is that's fine...but you can also PM me



Maybe I'm not sure what he means here but this scripture came to mind:

2 Tim 3:16
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness..

I agree that the Holy Spirit is capable...but aren't there traditions that have changed over the years?  Plus there a lot of Catholic Church traditions that conflict w/scripture...such as praying to dead people etc.


Beach I hope you know we're not disrespecting your friend we are just interested in his change.  Thank you for sharing this stuff w/us.  I'm very interested in his former denom!

Stella there are a number of denominations involved in evangelism.  We have a church here called New Hope that comes under the umbrella of the "The Church of the Foursquare Gospel" and they're always reaching out to the community in some way.  Fabulous group of Christian people. 

No disrespect at all.     Disagreement doesn't equal disrespect in my book.  I'm posting his comments so people can comment, discuss, agree, disagree.  I agree with some of his views, disagree with others. 

More from him:

Creeds. The Creeds are another fine example of church tradition. If we don't believe that God worked in the early church and through the difficult times when we labored against Arianism, Gnosticism, Docetism, then what are we to make of some of the most important doctrines which are not explicitly in Scripture? The Trinity, the nature of Christ, the role of the Holy Spirit, etc. These were not found fully developed in Scripture. They had roots in Scripture and were fleshed out by the leading of the Holy Spirit over time. That is tradition. The selecting of what circulating texts constituted Scripture –that is tradition. There’s no list in Scripture of what books are to be accorded status of Scripture. And you can’t just assume the texts are self-authenticating. All the books that didn’t even make it into the Apocrypha because they were Gnostic or Docetist in nature claimed to have been composed by disciples, apostles, or other followers of Jesus. The very process of the church defining the body of the canon of sacred Scripture is tradition.

I believe the Apostles’ Creed and the Nicene Creed are the heart of Christian theology. They were early on the consensus of believers and they focus on the essentials. [Some Protestant demoninations] are wary of the Nicene Creed because of the word “catholic” which appears therein. But that word at the time meant, and continues to mean when spelled with a lower case “c,” universal or worldwide. . . .

[Butterbean]

Why is Christianity not a massively and widely accepted/sanctioned cult? Why don't you consider it to be?

I believe a cult is a group that teaches that salvation is not by grace/faith alone.  Cults teach that you must perform works to gain and/or keep your salvation.

Cults also usually don't believe Jesus is God.

[Deicide]

I believe a cult is a group that teaches that salvation is not by grace/faith alone.  Cults teach that you must perform works to gain and/or keep your salvation.

Cults also usually don't believe Jesus is God.

For nearly 3 centuries the Roman Empire considered Christianity to be a mere cult. It is an arbitrary designation. These days, because large numbers of people subscribe to various forms of Christianity, the term is no longer used but it is just as appropriate as it was in the 2nd century CE. As far as the faith issue is concerned, there are many differing opinions on this within Christianity itself.

[columbusdude82]

I don't want to be saved dammit!

It took me the first 23 years of my life to realize I was born OK the first time around!