Author Topic: My workout partner is confused about spotting to failure - who is right?  (Read 2214 times)

ronbrgundy

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We were doing biceps and I told my workout partner we should spot each other on a set of barbell 21's.  He said "theres no real chance of hurting yourself (by dropping the weight on you) so its not necessary". 

To me this is fundamentally wrong.  To me there are many times when you spot to bring a person to absolute failure, maybe a couple to a few times a session I would expect. 

Do you have any rules you follow on this?  Is my thinking correct? 

jpm101

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#1 BB'ing Rule: Never go to the point of momentary positive/negative, complete or absolute failure in any workout. If a PL'ers, who may have to check a all out 1 rep max rep progress, than usually every 2 to 3 weeks. Good Luck.
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tbombz

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#1 BB'ing Rule: Never go to the point of momentary positive/negative, complete or absolute failure in any workout. If a PL'ers, who may have to check a all out 1 rep max rep progress, than usually every 2 to 3 weeks. Good Luck.
can you expand more on this?

kevcat

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Im presuming when you say dont go to absolute failure, you have a great physique to back this up?
I go failure and beyond every workout, and i make massive progress in strength right now doing it since i started working out with a spotter. ( natural btw )

wild willie

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powerlifters never go to failure......when training for strength......don't go to failure.


as for bodybuilding......most champs don't go to failure.....ronnie doesn't.....neith did Arnold, Franco, Bill Pearl, Lou Ferrigno......samir didn't.....waller didn't......if you need a spot.....the weight is too heavy.....go to 90 percent of failure......you will still grow and not get injured.......ever seen kamali train......he doesn't lift the weight on his own......his partner follows him from the first rep.......how does kamali benefit from this?


lift the weight on your own......just my input though.

wild willie

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remember what lee haney preached


stimulate......don't annihilate.

WOOO

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You don't need a spot for curls. Just use a bit of body English for the extra reps.

Montague

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JPM & Willie are correct.
Many pro’s use a somewhat limited range of motion for reasons such as TUT, etc.
Likewise, quite a few of even the biggest boys tend to stop most of their sets short of failure.

Spotters typically act as an insurance policy in the event that something goes wrong during the set.
They seldom add assistance for additional reps beyond failure.

I speculate that trainers who do get favorable results with the “failure & beyond” method are often using lower volume protocols.
If you’re doing 20-25 sets and taking even half of them to/past failure, you could very well fry your CNS.

That being said, there are genetic exceptions to every rule.


jpm101

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Congrats to Kevcat for his massive progress since working out, using his custom method of going to absolute & beyond failure. And with spotters too! Don't like to say much about myself, only that my physique may be made by the Samoan Gods. That's what my mother say's anyway.

 To most of the more common and lesser folks who workout, getting to the point of failure should be avoided. Except in the rare case of doing a HIT style using a one set max of 12 to 20 reps.  And of course the ever ready spotter at your side. Can also apply drop sets , forced reps or anything else that comes to mind. One set only, though some will go to two sets max. And usually one workout a week.

The CNS, the key to progress in strength and development, can be damaged by going to the point of failure. And will require extra recovery time. Problem being, that the CNS may not be at total recovery(actually healing the body's nervous system so will not meet the demands of the next workout). Like reopening up  a wound every day, the wound will never heals properly. If at all.

1) Complete failure...get to the point of only able to do a half rep or less. at the end of a set.
2) Momentary failure......reaching complete failure, taking a short pause/breath or two and continue the set.
3) Positive/negative failure......can take the positive phase to complete or momentary failure, and than add  negative reps in the lowering of the weight phase. Lowering should be under slow and complete control all the way down. Should take three times (or more) as long to lower the weight than raise (contract muscle..positive rep) it. Some workout only may use negatives, as a major part of training.
4) Absolute failure ..very hard to reach this point. The CNS/body defense reflexes may become weaken, very limited or shut down all together. Actually very difficult to reach this state through working out with weights.  Endurance and stamina sports or pursuits can come near to this point. Like training for marathons, Tri events, SEAL or other military training, etc. People lost in the desert or snow storms have experienced absolute body system failure. Death occurs in many cases. Good Luck.
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tbombz

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jpm, what im getting is high volume workouts with heavy weight (enough to get anywhere from say 5 to 12 reps for upperbody and 5 to 20 reps lower body) and every set is stopped one or two reps before failure.

jpm101

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TbombZ, ideal range for BB'ing.  People seem to be stuck on the magic(?) 8-10 rep range most of the time.  5 reps will do for you what 20 will not. And vice versa. Good Luck.
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JasonH

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No need to go to complete and utter failure - it's too intense and should only be used sparingly - I very rarely use a spotter - only when I am handling the heaviest weight of a set. Franco said it right when he said that the best forced reps are the ones you do yourself. Bodybuilders should only be looking to stimulate muscle growth - by all means train as hard as you can but you shouldn't be training to the point where you physically can't move any weight a single inch more - it's overkill. Expend the minimal amount of effort as you can get away with in the gym, and then go home and eat and rest properly - you'll still grow muscle so don't worry about it.

Montague

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^^ This type of methodology has proven most effective/beneficial for me.

dyslexic

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Don't listen to Jones, Mentzer or Yates...

Montague

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Oh, no – that’s not what I’m suggesting at all.
As I ascertained above, there are people who make great gains using various failure principles.
There are also people who do well the other way.

You have to consider things like the entire context of someone’s training regimen, individual response, etc.
I’ve tried HIT and programs/principles similar to it, but I always responded better to volume.
That’s just me.

Can’t argue with results.
I wouldn’t argue with Yates or Mentzer’s success, but it’s foolish for me to use their principles when they don’t work for me.

dyslexic

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They don't neccessarily work for me either...


The controversy will always be there. Books will continue to be written advocating both as 100% definitive. One will use scientific data, teh other will use empirical data.


I say let the physiques speak for themselves.

ronbrgundy

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Awesome debate.  Thanks for all the inputs very eye opening.  I just recently felt a bout of tendenitis starting and I think its because I haven't been lifting as smart as I should. 

jpm101

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I would not discard the experiences of Jones, Mentzer or Yates by any means. Can always learn something of value even if not in total agreement with any of their views. Of course, this goes along with an open mind. Always time to learn what may or may not work for you. A gym, and working out, is a great experimental  lab to apply theory  with different protocols. And be sure to give any different or new idea a fair effort (a lot of guy's don't), might surprise  even yourself.

Persona view is that Art Jones was a true pioneer of his times.His White Papers, and applied mechanics, were exceptional. Mentzer tried to follow in his footsteps but stumbled alone the way. His ego, and drug/mental related problems, flawed his judgment. Yates..why disagree  with success or how it was obtained? It worked for him, find out what works for you. Good Luck.
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