Author Topic: When America goes belly up, how will it be remembered?  (Read 5860 times)

falco

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 20862
  • The child is grown, the dream is gone
Re: When America goes belly up, how will it be remembered?
« Reply #50 on: December 22, 2013, 10:13:55 AM »

falco

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 20862
  • The child is grown, the dream is gone
Re: When America goes belly up, how will it be remembered?
« Reply #51 on: December 22, 2013, 10:17:14 AM »

falco

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 20862
  • The child is grown, the dream is gone
Re: When America goes belly up, how will it be remembered?
« Reply #52 on: December 22, 2013, 10:21:33 AM »

arce1988

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 24630
  • ARCE USA USMC
Re: When America goes belly up, how will it be remembered?
« Reply #53 on: December 22, 2013, 10:24:46 AM »


^

this is from 2013?

falco

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 20862
  • The child is grown, the dream is gone
Re: When America goes belly up, how will it be remembered?
« Reply #54 on: December 22, 2013, 10:30:22 AM »

falco

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 20862
  • The child is grown, the dream is gone
Re: When America goes belly up, how will it be remembered?
« Reply #55 on: December 22, 2013, 10:34:41 AM »

phreak

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 5084
  • Food is amazing
Re: When America goes belly up, how will it be remembered?
« Reply #56 on: December 22, 2013, 10:51:08 AM »

Why don't you be "long gone".  Go to another country that is more to your liking.   How about another planet? 
Don't worry, my taxes are being paid to another government already. Note that I don't refer to it as 'my' homeland.  That sort of jingoism is completely alien to me and other adults. When my country of residence starts to suck, I will move to another.

phreak

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 5084
  • Food is amazing
Re: When America goes belly up, how will it be remembered?
« Reply #57 on: December 22, 2013, 10:53:44 AM »
I don't see the relevance of defense spending as a percent of "total global war spending" since it says nothing of the USG's ability to afford such costs -- and I understand your primary assertion to be about affordability. Defense spending as a % of GDP is a much more sensible variable to evaluate.

Defense spending as a % of GDP has remained below 1970 levels ever since the post-Vietnam cuts, and currently stands at about 60% of that value -- a whopping 4% of GDP. Further, it is slated to decrease at least 10% once the draw down from the Bush Administration's wars is complete (defense spending has always declined significantly after a period of conflict is over).

Therefore, it just isn't the case that the US suddenly piled on a bunch of unsustainable defense commitments after the Vietnam War, nor that what it has spent on defense since then is the primary determinant of future budgetary issues: spending on welfare programs has averaged 7% of GDP over the same period and is slated to increase substantially over the next 20+ years.

P.S. I'm sure we both agree that defense spending is too high. But that isn't what is being debated here.

edit: checked the data and tweaked a few values (1970 instead of 1975, 4% instead of 4.4%, 60% instead of 63%)
Thanks for a thoughtful reply. I read quite different numbers earlier today. Will reply tomorrow when I'm not limited to my phone's keyboard.

phreak

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 5084
  • Food is amazing
Re: When America goes belly up, how will it be remembered?
« Reply #58 on: December 22, 2013, 10:55:31 AM »
Have another cup of hot cocoa and relax, pajama boy.  :D
Did you hack into my Xbox camera earlier today?  >:(  ;D

thebrink

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4239
Re: When America goes belly up, how will it be remembered?
« Reply #59 on: December 22, 2013, 11:17:10 AM »
Not a chance it will ever happen.  Hope this helps.

Huh?  ???

How exactly is this current state sustainable?

EwaBeachBoy

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 1209
Re: When America goes belly up, how will it be remembered?
« Reply #60 on: December 22, 2013, 11:57:09 AM »
I love this country but America is on the decline because of Obama and how policies are making us go into greater debt


polychronopolous

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 19041
Re: When America goes belly up, how will it be remembered?
« Reply #61 on: December 22, 2013, 12:21:37 PM »
Did you hack into my Xbox camera earlier today?  >:(  ;D

Busted!  :o :)

phreak

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 5084
  • Food is amazing
Re: When America goes belly up, how will it be remembered?
« Reply #62 on: December 23, 2013, 02:58:21 AM »
I don't see the relevance of defense spending as a percent of "total global war spending" since it says nothing of the USG's ability to afford such costs -- and I understand your primary assertion to be about affordability. Defense spending as a % of GDP is a much more sensible variable to evaluate.
That could be argued. I was just indicating how absurd it was. Whether or not it is affordable (which was indeed my assertion) is certainly another matter. Given the very unequal distribution of income growth, and thus the tax base, I'd hazard a guess that the base for carrying is getting dangerously small. The elite are paying less and less taxes -- certainly percentage-wise. Probably in absolute terms as well, but I could be wrong there, as their income has skyrocketed so much that it could compensate for their lowered tax rates.

So I see where you are coming from, and to a large extent I also agree that war spending as a percentage of the federal budget is not a very telling metric. It's just that GDP as a metric can also not be used blindly, as income differential has a large impact there. A shrinking middle class plus a cronyish upper class means less money for the lower class. And that is how revolutions start. You don't often see well-employed people giving their life for fairer wealth distribution.

Quote
Defense spending as a % of GDP has remained below 1970 levels ever since the post-Vietnam cuts, and currently stands at about 60% of that value -- a whopping 4% of GDP. Further, it is slated to decrease at least 10% once the draw down from the Bush Administration's wars is complete (defense spending has always declined significantly after a period of conflict is over).
I stand corrected. Would be interesting to see data on downstream effects (what percentage of the economy is directly or indirectly working towards war production, then versus now), as I have no idea about that. Depending on the scale that would potentially make a difference. AFAIK no country has ever been on a permanent wartime production and survived.

Quote
P.S. I'm sure we both agree that defense spending is too high. But that isn't what is being debated here.
True on both counts. Getting back to my other point: perception-wise I maintain that the Vietnam war was a big blow to the US. Internally, because it was the first conflict where the soldiers weren't welcomed back as heroes. Justified or not, and probably only because of the new role of the media. I am not under the delusion that war was ever clean and heroic. And externally, because it also showed the world, both friend and foe, that the US was vulnerable. Understandable, with a military geared towards large-scale conflicts, not guerilla warfare, but still a clear ego-shattering blow.

Irongrip400

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 22373
  • Pan Germanism, Pax Britannica
Re: When America goes belly up, how will it be remembered?
« Reply #63 on: December 23, 2013, 03:11:10 AM »
How is Russia still around?

Bevo

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 19269
  • Buc ee’s is numero uno
Re: When America goes belly up, how will it be remembered?
« Reply #64 on: December 23, 2013, 03:18:36 AM »
How is Russia still around?

Bbing is keeping them afloat

CalvinH

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 22222
  • Spastic Tarted Cvunt
Re: When America goes belly up, how will it be remembered?
« Reply #65 on: December 23, 2013, 05:25:51 AM »
Long as we nuke the shit out of the rest of the world before we go I'll be happy :)

syntaxmachine

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 2687
Re: When America goes belly up, how will it be remembered?
« Reply #66 on: December 23, 2013, 08:01:32 AM »
Given the very unequal distribution of income growth, and thus the tax base, I'd hazard a guess that the base for carrying is getting dangerously small. The elite are paying less and less taxes -- certainly percentage-wise. Probably in absolute terms as well, but I could be wrong there, as their income has skyrocketed so much that it could compensate for their lowered tax rates.

The CBO says that the top quintile of earners pay about 70% of federal taxes, and the tax code was recently made more progressive (Clinton-era top rate returned + Bush cuts made permanent for everyone but the wealthy + Pease limitations and PEP). Given this, I don't think that the wealthy are exactly shirking their obligations -- even if they are paying less than in the past. And since they are unlikely to revolt, there doesn't seem to be any critical issue here.

It's just that GDP as a metric can also not be used blindly, as income differential has a large impact there. A shrinking middle class plus a cronyish upper class means less money for the lower class. And that is how revolutions start. You don't often see well-employed people giving their life for fairer wealth distribution.

Maybe, but income inequality is a separate issue than the one we got started on, and I am too lazy to start thinking about a new topic.

Getting back to my other point: perception-wise I maintain that the Vietnam war was a big blow to the US. Internally, because it was the first conflict where the soldiers weren't welcomed back as heroes. Justified or not, and probably only because of the new role of the media. I am not under the delusion that war was ever clean and heroic. And externally, because it also showed the world, both friend and foe, that the US was vulnerable. Understandable, with a military geared towards large-scale conflicts, not guerilla warfare, but still a clear ego-shattering blow.

Fair enough.

funk51

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 42519
  • Getbig!
Re: When America goes belly up, how will it be remembered?
« Reply #67 on: December 23, 2013, 12:16:14 PM »
When the inevitable happens through the dollar crashes, war or something else and this country ceases to exist the way we know it, how will it be remembered in history. A suggestion on comments, lets use the true history and doings of America and not the make believe shit. Thanks
like the old roman empire.
F

Wolfox

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 6471
Re: When America goes belly up, how will it be remembered?
« Reply #68 on: December 23, 2013, 12:18:36 PM »
GOAT.   8)

But should we fall were taking the world with us.
A