Submission! What are these verses really saying?

[Hustle Man]

Without reading any other scripture, does this offend you and why?

1 Corinthians 14:33-35
33 For God is not a God of disorder but of peace. As in all the congregations of the saints,
34 women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says.
35 If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.

Ephesians 5:22-24
22 Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord.
23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior.
24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

Colossians 3:18
18 Wives, submit to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.

1 Timothy 2:9-15
9 I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes
10 but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.
11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission.
12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.
13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.
15 But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

There's more but this should get the ball rolling?

HMIC

[columbusdude82]

Doesn't mean 1 Timothy 2:12 mean that Stella should not be a mod on here?

I was just about to make a thread on that, but you beat me to it!

DE-MOD STELLA

[Hustle Man]

Doesn't mean 1 Timothy 2:12 mean that Stella should not be a mod on here?

I was just about to make a thread on that, but you beat me to it!

DE-MOD STELLA

lol

[columbusdude82]

Well, what's the matter, ye good Christian folk? Do ye take ye scripture so lightly?

Why are none of you clamoring to DE-MOD STELLA?

For it is written, "I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent."

[OzmO]

Don't bet on people to follow the bible Word for word.

[loco]

I don't have much time, but here we go:

This refers to a specific permission in a specific context.

At the beginning for the Christian church in the 1st century, it was easier for Greeks and Romans to accept Jesus than it was for Jews, since Jews always have trouble accepting their own true prophets at first.  For this reason, great signs and wonders were performed by Jesus, his 12 apostles and some of the early Christians, such as healing, speaking in tongues, etc.  Those signs and wonders were temporary and that was their purpose, to witness to the Jews that their Messiah had come.  At some churches in Greece, however, Ephesus, Corinth, etc., some false teachings were introduced into the church about speaking in tongues, that all Christians must speak in tongues as evidence of their conversion.  These were perpetrated mostly by women for no particular reason. So Jews would walk into one of those churches, and all they heard was women chanting in weird tongues, at the same time, without interpreters...it was chaos. 

1 Corinthians 14:22-23
Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is for believers, not for unbelievers. 23So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and some who do not understand[a] or some unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind?

1 Corinthians 14:33-35
For God is not a God of disorder but of peace. As in all the congregations of the saints,
34 women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says.
35 If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.


So

1.  Paul was putting a stop to that.

Also, because of their traditions, Jews would not allow a woman to teach them about God authoritatively.  Therefore, at the beginning of the Christian church, it was important for Christian men to be the ones witnessing to Jews, in order to reach them and not turn them away.

So

2.  Paul was telling Timothy not to permit women to witness to Jews or teach them authoritatively.

Signs and wonders have seized for now, Jews have loosened up, times have changed. 

So STella, please teach us.

[OzmO]

Ok, so what you are saying is the intention of Paul to forbid Women teaching in church was to help convert Jews and that directive was only for that time period?

So it's ok to have women pastors?

[loco]

Ok, so what you are saying is the intention of Paul to forbid Women teaching in church was to help convert Jews and that directive was only for that time period?

So it's ok to have women pastors?

I was talking about speaking and teaching in church.  When it comes to leading an entire church, I do not know the answer to that.  But my opinion is that if a Christian has a problem with women being pastors, then don't join a church that has a woman pastor.

[Dos Equis]

Aren't women preachers/prophetesses discussed in the Old Testament?

[loco]

Aren't women preachers/prophetesses discussed in the Old Testament?

Yes.  The part that I haven't studied yet is about a woman being in charge of an entire church, a woman pastor.   

[Dos Equis]

Yes.  The part that I haven't studied yet is about a woman being in charge of an entire church, a woman pastor.   

Thanks loco. 

[loco]

Thanks loco. 

You are welcome, Beach Bum!  Have a great weekend!

[Butterbean]

Doesn't mean 1 Timothy 2:12 mean that Stella should not be a mod on here?

I was just about to make a thread on that, but you beat me to it!

DE-MOD STELLA

haha!

I don't have much time, but here we go:

This refers to a specific permission in a specific context.

At the beginning for the Christian church in the 1st century, it was easier for Greeks and Romans to accept Jesus than it was for Jews, since Jews always have trouble accepting their own true prophets at first.  For this reason, great signs and wonders were performed by Jesus, his 12 apostles and some of the early Christians, such as healing, speaking in tongues, etc.  Those signs and wonders were temporary and that was their purpose, to witness to the Jews that their Messiah had come.  At some churches in Greece, however, Ephesus, Corinth, etc., some false teachings were introduced into the church about speaking in tongues, that all Christians must speak in tongues as evidence of their conversion.  These were perpetrated mostly by women for no particular reason. So Jews would walk into one of those churches, and all they heard was women chanting in weird tongues, at the same time, without interpreters...it was chaos. 
1 Corinthians 14:22-23
Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is for believers, not for unbelievers. 23So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and some who do not understand[a] or some unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind?

1 Corinthians 14:33-35
For God is not a God of disorder but of peace. As in all the congregations of the saints,
34 women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says.
35 If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.


So

1.  Paul was putting a stop to that.

Also, because of their traditions, Jews would not allow a woman to teach them about God authoritatively.  Therefore, at the beginning of the Christian church, it was important for Christian men to be the ones witnessing to Jews, in order to reach them and not turn them away.

So

2.  Paul was telling Timothy not to permit women to witness to Jews or teach them authoritatively.

Signs and wonders have seized for now, Jews have loosened up, times have changed. 

Thanks for this loco, I didn't know some of this..I learn a lot here

[columbusdude82]

loco, do you agree with the proposition held by many Biblical scholars that 1st Timothy and a bunch of other NT epistles attributed to Paul aren't really by him, but were written under his name by a later follower of his?

They are called "Deutero-pauline epistles."

[loco]

loco, do you agree with the proposition held by many Biblical scholars that 1st Timothy and a bunch of other NT epistles attributed to Paul aren't really by him, but were written under his name by a later follower of his?

They are called "Deutero-pauline epistles."

No.

[columbusdude82]

OK

[Hustle Man]

Don't bet on people to follow the bible Word for word.

True statement!