Stubborn ox pull

[Luv2Hurt]

My dog a 4 YO male brown Lab is not bad on leash, but has started a new type of behavior on leash at times.  I walk him mostly on one of those 16' retractable leashes.  Most of the time I let him range around, but will at times make him heal to practice and keep him under control.  He heals pretty good except when distractions are around, like people walking by.  He does not pull on the long leash cause he will get corrected if he does, so hes pretty good again with out distractions, yeah thats where the problem usually starts I know for most dogs LOL.

Anyhow sometimes if he is determined to get something, maybe a piece of food on the ground I dont want him to get or try to get by someone he will just hunker down and pull like a MF!  I mean hes about 70 lbs but can practically pull me around when he sets his mind to it.  If im ready for it i can control it but if he catches me off guard he can pull me forward.  Today I was walking him healed and 2 kids were coming down the sidewalk.  Well the leash was short and he tryed to get close to the kids, hes friendly but I dont want him to freek a kid out who may be scared or not wanting a dog sniffing it. So I pulled back on the leash to keep him away, he was out of control at this time.  But he ran behind me fast and tried to get by the kids again.  Well this wrapped me up and put extreem pressure on my hip and knee.  Then he did that get close to the ground ox pull driving hard with his rear legs.  Well the way I was twisted my hip and knee took the brunt of this determined pull.  I ended up with a sore leg and knee, he really could have hurt me that way.

I wonder if you guys may have any tips for stopping this type of behaivior, i use a regular collar on him but am thinking about going to the prong one again.  My thinking I would rather fix it some other way though like training him better or something, probally the answer right there. I wanted to kill him for that but kept my cool and did not hit him.  I put him in the sit position and let him know I was upset.  He goes to doggie day care 2 times a week so maybe he is learning some cocky stuff there?

[SinCitysmallGUY]

First word of advice. GET RID OF THAT SHITTY RETRACTABLE LEASH! Those things are pure crap and are just asking for a problem with any dog that is 70 lbs. Get this fixed then go back to the training collar. That will fix it real quick. Use that for a while not just a week or two.

[rockyfortune]

try a prong collar...i had an unruly black lab i adopted and after some training, working with him..and using the pinch leash fixed a lot of his issues. 

[ripitupbaby]

Prong collars do work pretty well Luv. 
That's one strong pup!

[knny187]

I strongly believe in using the prong or pinch collar as some call.

But....even when using one....if it's not worn & used correctly....you'll have the same situation.

Some pointers (no pun intended)

- Make sure it sits 'high' on the neck.

- Make sure it's not too loose...or too tight.  Too tight & it won't pinch correctly....too loose it will constantly slip down.

- When making a correction...they are short quick "snaps" or "tugs".  At the same time you make a tug...use a command like "heel" (which is what I do).  Some folks like Cesar Milan make a noise.

[Vet]

Heres what I'd suggest (most of this has been said before):
1) get rid of the retractable leash.  All that does is teach a dog that they can range out from you---ie build up speed before they reach the end of the leash.  The fact that you can stop them by pushing the button keeps the dog from ever learning reasonable boundaries.  This doesn't happen with a 4, 6 or 8 foot standard leash.
2) consider a prong collar---these work really well, just make sure you have it set correctly for your dog.  Choke chains also work, but I've seen a couple of dogs where the fuckhead owners yanked back on the leash too hard and they injured the dogs trachea (small dog, big idiot owner).  My old staffie also pretty much ignored a choke chain.  He'd just tighten up his neck muscles and keep pulling.   
3) consider a halti or gentle leader head collar.   These seem to work really really well with some dogs.  Others they don't work at all. 
4) consider a one of the new antipull harnesses (I'm sorry, I forget the manufacturer, I think its the same one as the halti head collars, but I'm having a brain fart).   This is a very specific type of harness that mimics the pull across the chest that you can do with an overboisterous dog using the dog lead---except its much quicker.  I've used this harness on two of my dogs and was impressed with it--and I'm really not a big fan of harnesses. 
5) And most importantly, obedience work.  you have a relatively young overzealous lab.  Working with basic commands to get the dog to focus on you, not an outside stimuli will work miracles.   

[rockyfortune]

i have to put in my 3 cents..have to agree with vet on this one..you can use a prong collar but you need to go to some form of obedience training..my dog was a nut after he left the shelter..the training, along with the collar calmed him down..he also learned how to play nice with other dogs..and  how not to lunge at new people...training is the key...

[Luv2Hurt]

Thanks guys for all the input, I really appreciate it.  I used to use a prong collar on him all the time for walks but he was doing pretty good and I was semi thinking the things are mean but I know its not really....so I moved over to a regular collar the last year or so.  I have always thought about one of those gentle leaders so if things dont get better I will give one a try.

Good points on wearing it properly too I used to have it too loose so that I changed today when I started using it again.  I made him heal for about half of our half hour walk.  I was actually glad there was a guy on the sidewalk in our path and the dog tried to get near the guy, not like yesterday though I think cause I had the prong collar on him.  But when he did i gave a quick, pretty hard tug and repeated "heal."  That worked OK but need to get the dog like was said, focusing on me not everything else.  He has a great spirit and I would not like to take away from that, but he needs to be under control.

I guess i need to work more with him too, its pretty much my fault for not enough but hes not a bad out of control dog by any means.  One thing hes very good about at the off leash dog park is he comes to me whenever I call him.  I have to start working on his leash skills that is for sure.  Thanks and anymore input is very welcome.

[temper35]

I wouldn't use a prong until he learns some manners.  A prong isn't an anti pull collar, its a training collar.

Get a four foot leash and teach him how to walk.

[Luv2Hurt]

I wouldn't use a prong until he learns some manners.  A prong isn't an anti pull collar, its a training collar.

Get a four foot leash and teach him how to walk.

He does not pull all the time, just in certian situations.  He will lunge to get by new people and maybe something on the ground he wants to get.  He does heal well and walks good, but during these distractions he may get a mind of his own and have bad manners as you say.  But yes i agree he needs more training.

[temper35]

He does not pull all the time, just in certian situations.  He will lunge to get by new people and maybe something on the ground he wants to get.  He does heal well and walks good, but during these distractions he may get a mind of his own and have bad manners as you say.  But yes i agree he needs more training.

Heeling except while distracted is kind of defeating the purpose, and lunging is even worse even if it is in a non aggressive manner, regardless.

For a situation like this, coupled with training, a prong may have a place.  I was just saying for those people you see with their dogs basically leading them down the street, with their arm extended and bouncing from the taut leash...a prong collar is not the fix, it'd just prolly injure the dog.

[Luv2Hurt]

Heeling except while distracted is kind of defeating the purpose, and lunging is even worse even if it is in a non aggressive manner, regardless.

For a situation like this, coupled with training, a prong may have a place.  I was just saying for those people you see with their dogs basically leading them down the street, with their arm extended and bouncing from the taut leash...a prong collar is not the fix, it'd just prolly injure the dog.

Well we are working on getting better at healing.  And yes its not the pulling me around type pull, no way I would put up with that.  But yeah when the dog trys to get at people or stuff he will try and pull towards it sometimes.  I just need to be consistant and keep working at it I think.

Another thing he will do and I have been told this is one of the dogs ways of challenging me, is this is with tennis balls outside or more lately some food he may have found outside.  When he gets hold of a tennis ball he will not give it up, his hair on the back will stand up and if i try to pull it out he will not let me.  I persist though and wrestle it out anyhow, but it is VERY hard to pull it out.  Inside the house he does not do this.  Tennis balls are off limits for him cause he has problems with them and almost died choking on one but thats another story, I did tell it here a while back.  A trainer friend said to spray vinegar/water in his nose and mouth when he does that and now if I just reach for the spray bottle he will drop it.  But I don't carry it with me all the time.  Also before I used to able open his mouth and pull some food he finds on the ground out of his mouth, but no he is not letting me do that.  I think hes getting a little too big for his britches, so I shall assert more dominance on him.

[knny187]

Well we are working on getting better at healing.  And yes its not the pulling me around type pull, no way I would put up with that.  But yeah when the dog trys to get at people or stuff he will try and pull towards it sometimes.  I just need to be consistant and keep working at it I think.

Another thing he will do and I have been told this is one of the dogs ways of challenging me, is this is with tennis balls outside or more lately some food he may have found outside.  When he gets hold of a tennis ball he will not give it up, his hair on the back will stand up and if i try to pull it out he will not let me.  I persist though and wrestle it out anyhow, but it is VERY hard to pull it out.  Inside the house he does not do this.  Tennis balls are off limits for him cause he has problems with them and almost died choking on one but thats another story, I did tell it here a while back.  A trainer friend said to spray vinegar/water in his nose and mouth when he does that and now if I just reach for the spray bottle he will drop it.  But I don't carry it with me all the time.  Also before I used to able open his mouth and pull some food he finds on the ground out of his mouth, but no he is not letting me do that.  I think hes getting a little too big for his britches, so I shall assert more dominance on him.

Well, honestly....I would not attempt to walk a dog untill he understands who's in charge.  Basically, I would start off with the dog at my side in a sit.  When I start moving....he starts moving.  When I stop....he stops.  When he does not stop.....make a correction.  Place him in a "sit" command.  Keep doing this over & over.  If a half hour goes by....so what.  They will eventually understand that walking is a great exercise..but it has rules & limitations set forth by you.  Otherwise...you will be pulled.

I too have just discovered that our boy has a love for tennis balls.  We were on a walk & he found on...otherwise...I would never allow him to play with one.  Anyways....he was very upset when I tried taking it away from him.  I even got a low growl which he never does.  So...what I did is not get upset....I just took charge of the situation.  I made him sit there & in "stay" command.  I rolled the ball all over the floor & even over his feet.  I made him realize it was my ball & I can do whatever I want with it.  Then after 5 minutes of this....I gave it to him....& within 5 seconds asked for it back....& he gave it to me.  I find with dogs....it's better to give the command "drop" or something....then trying to pull something physically from their mouth.  Granted....I believe I still may have more work with this tennis ball issue...but we have a good handle on it right now.  I need to do this a few more times.  He's smart....but a little thick in the head.

[temper35]

Well we are working on getting better at healing.  And yes its not the pulling me around type pull, no way I would put up with that.  But yeah when the dog trys to get at people or stuff he will try and pull towards it sometimes.  I just need to be consistant and keep working at it I think.

Another thing he will do and I have been told this is one of the dogs ways of challenging me, is this is with tennis balls outside or more lately some food he may have found outside.  When he gets hold of a tennis ball he will not give it up, his hair on the back will stand up and if i try to pull it out he will not let me.  I persist though and wrestle it out anyhow, but it is VERY hard to pull it out.  Inside the house he does not do this.  Tennis balls are off limits for him cause he has problems with them and almost died choking on one but thats another story, I did tell it here a while back.  A trainer friend said to spray vinegar/water in his nose and mouth when he does that and now if I just reach for the spray bottle he will drop it.  But I don't carry it with me all the time.  Also before I used to able open his mouth and pull some food he finds on the ground out of his mouth, but no he is not letting me do that.  I think hes getting a little too big for his britches, so I shall assert more dominance on him.

You have issues far beyond your dog not knowing how to walk it seems.  Him pulling you on a leash is not challenging you, it is him leading you.  Normally when someone walks a dog the dog should be next to you or behind you, and it is FOLLOWING YOU.  When your dog pulls you, he is leading, you are following.

Your dog is also exhibiting resource guarding.  By refusing to give a tennis ball up to you, he is basically saying "this is mine you can't have it".  The way it should be is your dog should be willing to give ANYTHING it has up to you at ANY time.  When my dog was a puppy he tried this 1x with a bone, I snatched him up and growled at him, and it never happened again.  I do not recommend you do this at this point in your dogs life, btw, heh.

There is deeper problems to address, although it doesn't sound very serious...your dog just thinks he is the boss.  How is he around food/chewables?  Does he display the same behavior?

You need to read these links

http://k9deb.com/nilif.htm
http://www.goof.com/~pmurphy/NILIF.html
http://www.cairnrescue.com/docs/NILIF.htm

[Luv2Hurt]

You have issues far beyond your dog not knowing how to walk it seems.  Him pulling you on a leash is not challenging you, it is him leading you.  Normally when someone walks a dog the dog should be next to you or behind you, and it is FOLLOWING YOU.  When your dog pulls you, he is leading, you are following.

Your dog is also exhibiting resource guarding.  By refusing to give a tennis ball up to you, he is basically saying "this is mine you can't have it".  The way it should be is your dog should be willing to give ANYTHING it has up to you at ANY time.  When my dog was a puppy he tried this 1x with a bone, I snatched him up and growled at him, and it never happened again.  I do not recommend you do this at this point in your dogs life, btw, heh.

There is deeper problems to address, although it doesn't sound very serious...your dog just thinks he is the boss.  How is he around food/chewables?  Does he display the same behavior?

You need to read these links

http://k9deb.com/nilif.htm
http://www.goof.com/~pmurphy/NILIF.html
http://www.cairnrescue.com/docs/NILIF.htm

Thanks guys for the input.  I do this on occasssion to test him I will give him his food and while he is eating it I will pick it up and take it away.  He does not seem bothered by this, he just looks at me like hey what are you doing but no aggression.

Hes not too bad but certian things like tennis balls outside and now food he finds outside he thinks are his.  I agree he should give up what ever i say.  He will at times respond to the drop comand but its only if its something he does not really find good or appealing.  So hes not real bad but needs work.   he is real bad about tennis ball though for some reason.

My vet when I first brought the dog in for his first check up gave me the best advice ever and he said "dont let the dog push you around cause he is going to, so dont let him."  So hes pretty good but still will test me and certian things need more work that is for sure.

[temper35]

If you follow NILIF, within a few months the problem should be much better if not non existent.