Author Topic: Prejudice towards machines  (Read 2093 times)

figgs

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Prejudice towards machines
« on: June 24, 2006, 11:29:01 AM »
I've always stuck to free weights with the attitude that I won't get good results using the equipment that is mostly used by girls and old people. Many top bodybuilders advocate that for best results machines should be incorporated into training routines. I was trying to think about it and consider it without my prejudice and imagined that I could benefit a lot from this sort of training. It would open up the options I have regarding which exercises I can choose from. I'm strongly considering the following:

Smith front squats
Cable side laterals
Cable standing wrist curls
Various hammer press machines
Side lateral machine
Pullover machine
Cable bent over laterals
Pulley pushdowns
Cable crunches
Machine side laterals
Leg press machine (not the free weight 45 angle version)
Leg extensions (I do sissy squats)
Hammer rows
Lat pulldowns

Tonights shoulder workout will be like this:
DB press 5 sets 8-12 reps
Side cable laterals 3-4 sets 8-12 reps
Bent over cable laterals 2 sets 8-12 reps
Bent over DB laterals 2 sets 10+ reps super strict
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Bluto

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Re: Prejudice towards machines
« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2006, 11:53:18 AM »
give it a try. you dont have to change everything you know, you could do free fights and some machines or whatever. there's times when it's a good thing, if you work alone for example. and it can be good for variety.
i use a combination of free weights and machines myself.
Z

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Re: Prejudice towards machines
« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2006, 11:55:22 AM »
from those listed here's the ones i use from time to time

Cable standing wrist curls - havent used this but might give it a try for the constant tension
Pullover machine - love the nautilus one
Leg extensions (I do sissy squats)
Hammer rows - hammer got some good machines for the back overall, at least they suit my bodytype

Z

pumpster

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Re: Prejudice towards machines
« Reply #3 on: June 24, 2006, 12:24:50 PM »
The majority are still close-minded, especially on this site and others like it. What few understand here is that sometimes machines are better; thanks to in-the-box closed thinking they don't get it. It depends on the exercise and also on the brand & design.

Yates liked the hammer row sufficiently that Hammer named one of them after Yates. Yates preferred the Smith squat to regular squats. Machine pullovers are some machines are the best there is, better than dumbbells.

Cables are another where almost all are closed-minded in thinking of them only for refinement/flushing. Meanwhile Coleman prefers them-for size. So much for another lame theory..

Experiment, keep what works.

Sculpter

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Re: Prejudice towards machines
« Reply #4 on: June 24, 2006, 12:52:06 PM »
Free weights & machines both have their places in a program imo.However stating that I feel it depends on the person & their training experience.A person that has already built their body's "foundation" w/the core free weight exercises imo will benefit much more from machines than a person that has just begun weight training.

pumpster

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Re: Prejudice towards machines
« Reply #5 on: June 24, 2006, 01:03:09 PM »
Quote
Free weights & machines both have their places in a program imo.However stating that I feel it depends on the person & their training experience.A person that has already built their body's "foundation" w/the core free weight exercises imo will benefit much more from machines than a person that has just begun weight training.
Why? The instruments are either effective or not, at any stage of development; the key is to overload the muscles using resistance. Doesn't have to be free weights. Some would say that machines are better for beginners because the ROM's are already taken care of so form isn't an issue. There are pros & cons for any level.

Sculpter

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Re: Prejudice towards machines
« Reply #6 on: June 24, 2006, 01:58:17 PM »
The reason I favor a beginner using free weights over machines is because of the fact that machines put the trainer into a "groove" if you want to call it that pumpster.I have seen beginners start w/just machines & just say biceps (preacher curl machine) for example, they do them on the machine & get into the groove no problem.When they do the old style version w/free weight & a bench the story changes.Shoulders roll forward & they seem to not realise that gravity effects the downward motion.Then again there may just be more idiots training around me than I realise. :D

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Re: Prejudice towards machines
« Reply #7 on: June 24, 2006, 11:23:36 PM »
I use them both.  No reason to exclude machines or free weights.  I like to periodically use the Smith Machine for squats, shrugs, and bent rows.  I've also tried barbell curls on the Smith Machine.  Different.

JPM

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Re: Prejudice towards machines
« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2006, 10:10:34 AM »
Rage Against The Machine: The basic BB & DB should alway be selected as first choice, for a new trainee, over a total machine workout. A machine overload (resistence) on a machine does not offer or have the same effect, as a BB or DB and vice versa. Also the corrdination, balance, feel & timing  are superior when first learning how to train.. Even the reflex/muscle actions are difference and can be more directwith BB/DB's.. BB/DB's also call upon more supporting muscle involvement and core strength.Once the basic form, style and preformance of a given exercise is mastered than  machine's can have their place in serious training. Free weight training are like boot camp, learn the basic's first with the BB/DB's and than branch off to include some machne work if you wish. No too many football player I've seem do Hack machine squats rather than. heavy BB squats in their serious training. Good Luck.

pumpster

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Re: Prejudice towards machines
« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2006, 10:26:11 AM »
Actually a lot of football players use hammer-type machine squats rather than BB; nothing to do with hack squats. Those machines are popular with coaches because they work.

I always laugh when someone trots out predictable crap about free weights and "stabilizer" muscles. IMO the stabilizer argument's almost all marketing. Stabilizer muscles are only one of many factors, not a particularly important one from my experience. One can just as readily make a convincing case that removal of stabilizers while using machines has advantages re: pure power & size development. There are pros & cons on all forms of resistance training, and most of the pros know to pick and choose rather than make blanket statements.

If the stabilizer muscle argument was so vital to development, no one would use anything other than dumbbells; no one would even use barbells. hahahahahah

As far as teaching kids on free weights, they'll respond to any number of methods, and grow as long as progressive overload is applied. Machines, free weights, Bowflex, Universal machines, calisthenics, etc.

figgs

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Re: Prejudice towards machines
« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2006, 10:33:56 AM »
Rage Against The Machine: The basic BB & DB should alway be selected as first choice, for a new trainee, over a total machine workout. A machine overload (resistence) on a machine does not offer or have the same effect, as a BB or DB and vice versa. Also the corrdination, balance, feel & timing  are superior when first learning how to train.. Even the reflex/muscle actions are difference and can be more directwith BB/DB's.. BB/DB's also call upon more supporting muscle involvement and core strength.Once the basic form, style and preformance of a given exercise is mastered than  machine's can have their place in serious training. Free weight training are like boot camp, learn the basic's first with the BB/DB's and than branch off to include some machne work if you wish. No too many football player I've seem do Hack machine squats rather than. heavy BB squats in their serious training. Good Luck.

For this, I'm glad I spent the entire first year of my training with all free weights. Now I'm ready to benefit from the machines.

I never thought about what would be best for a beginner but I'd say both machines and free weights should be in a beginner's program since the machines will give the person a better understanding of form and ROM which will be learned to be applied with free weights as well.

MY high school's football teams weight room had mostly free weights and cables. We didn't have any hammer machines.
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WiseGuy

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Re: Prejudice towards machines
« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2006, 07:05:45 PM »
The majority are still close-minded, especially on this site and others like it. What few understand here is that sometimes machines are better; thanks to in-the-box closed thinking they don't get it. It depends on the exercise and also on the brand & design.

Yates liked the hammer row sufficiently that Hammer named one of them after Yates. Yates preferred the Smith squat to regular squats. Machine pullovers are some machines are the best there is, better than dumbbells.

Cables are another where almost all are closed-minded in thinking of them only for refinement/flushing. Meanwhile Coleman prefers them-for size. So much for another lame theory..

Experiment, keep what works.


one of the best all time posts ever....


WOOO

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Re: Prejudice towards machines
« Reply #12 on: June 26, 2006, 01:35:15 AM »
Why? The instruments are either effective or not, at any stage of development; the key is to overload the muscles using resistance. Doesn't have to be free weights. Some would say that machines are better for beginners because the ROM's are already taken care of so form isn't an issue. There are pros & cons for any level.

absolutely... i don't think you can generalize... both machines and free weights can be used to overload muscles... however, i think it's more common for peopl to be lazier while using a machine... conversely it's more likely that someone will use bad form with free weights...

JPM

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Re: Prejudice towards machines
« Reply #13 on: June 26, 2006, 02:05:03 PM »
Actually that machine style exercise equipment, seen in athlete training room's, is used a lot for rehab. Or for quarterback, kickers and the more delicate players, less they have to work too hard in the weight room. The  BB is still pretty much standard; core training. When a drafted player goes to the NFL combines the weight test (squat, bench, cleans, etc) are preformed with Olympic bar equipment. They all understand the important of measureing the core strength of an athlete. Along with coordination, quickness and timing under stress. (Though on a personal note: I think the NFL combines are a total waste of time...most of those jocks have been under inspection since grade school....NFL teams should know what their getting by the time they draft...but it is a good time for old men to sit around afterward the day is over, drink Scotch, smoke a cigar and talk about the glory years, long past)

Most coaches I've known, or worked with, prefer the old fashion BB training for their players. Some machines can be functional and do have a place along side weight training methods, very true. But the stablization benefits of free weight is first by choice. There is just not one way to train a modern athlete, either in football or anything else. The same thing can be applied to BB'ers. Good Luck.


pumpster

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Re: Prejudice towards machines
« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2006, 02:08:47 PM »
Some of the machines i've used rule over anything else. That's why hammer-type row and pulldown machines are so great using two examples-as good or better than any free weight exercise, as confirmed by users such as Yates and many more. the biggest reason hammer and other brands first blew up was thanks to their adoption by so many coaches actually.

BTW the machines are getting progressively more effective ie Hammer Ground Base line that retains the use of stabilization muscles within a machine context.

Combines use BBs because they're easier to move around and are a common standard, not because they're better.