" All-loving God "

[loco]

No. Circles aren't the same things as spheres. Spheres are round from all angles. Circles aren't.

Circles are round, spheres are round, the earth is round.  What's your point? 

Skeptics have argued before that the Bible implies a "flat square with four corners." in one place.  But they too are wrong because the Bible is simply talking about North, South, East and West in that verse.  So they disagree with your "disk" theory.

The concept of the circle here is talking about the flat earth, as a circle, and the sky stretched out over it as a tent. As it clearly says.

You are taking a Bible verse and stretching the truth with it to fit your argument, just like many cults do.

I've addressed all of this already. Please read my post.

No.  You keep saying "This had been known for a long long time prior." which is not true and you post no reference. 

I re-posted some of the Bible accuracies because you had replied to Tre telling him that I didn't quote the Bible verses, but that I was making stuff up.  I noticed you went back and changed your post, deleting that part.  Thank you!

1. If you read opposing views then why haven't you had experience with the arguments I'm presenting against your assertions? If you had, you would of addressed them and not ignored them.

What do you mean by I haven't had experience with your arguments?  How have I not addressed them?  I am pressed for time.  Is there one in particular that you would like me to address?

Oh, and it is "you would have addressed" not "you would of addressed."  And you give usmokepole a hard time for his grammar.

2. How do I contradict myself? How are my arguments weak?

Relax.  I wasn't talking about you specifically.  I was talking about the opposing sources that I have read.  One example is some skeptics say the Gospels were written around 135 AD, while others say no, they were written around 45 AD.  Some say there was no census when Jesus was born, others say that there was, while others say that we don't know for sure.

But now that I remember, you say the Bible implies the earth is a flat disk, while other skeptics say the Bible implies a flat squre with four corners.

I have read it, I have refuted it.

And I thank you, but you only picked a few.  There is a long list.  Why don't you go through it and refute all of them at your convenience.  And please post references when you simply say "This had been known for a long long time prior."

I find that a bit hard to believe.

Actually, I should never brag about how much I have studied or how much I know.  So I should have never said that.  I just wanted it to be known that I didn't just start reading the Bible yesterday, that I don't just copy and paste stuff from google and Wikipedia, and that I am not here simply repeating what my preacher said last Sunday.   

[Oldschool Flip]

I have faith.  I do not need evidence.  The evidence is not for me.  The evidence is to give a reason for my faith and to plant a seed that will hopefully help others seek Jesus Christ.

But if you didn't feel that you were in the right with the "Lord" you would FEAR the consequences from the faith you believe in.

I do not have fear to find out that it all is a hoax.  My faith is not based on this evidence.  Before I knew the evidence, I heard and read the Word of God and I believed in Jesus Christ by faith.

And fear.

Jesus Christ changed my life and He changed me.

Actually you changed you life. YOU made the decision to have faith. Jesus or God had nothing to do with that. You could easily change you mind and "unbelieve" and that would still be YOUR choice. Again Jesus or God would have nothing to do with that.

I cannot prove to you that God exists, or that the Bible is the word of God, or that Jesus can save you.  All I can do is share my experience with you and present you with evidence.

Though I no longer believe in God or Jesus, I am amazed at how strong people faith is and how far and what sacrifices they are willing to give up to be with their Lord. Takes discipline to do that.

Congratulations!  I'm very happy for you!

I'm happy for me too.

[loco]

But if you didn't feel that you were in the right with the "Lord" you would FEAR the consequences from the faith you believe in.

If I didn't feel that I was in the right with The Lord, I would not be afraid of hell, if that's what you mean. I know for sure that I am not going to hell no matter what I do since Jesus Christ already died for my sins. 

Then why do I not live a life of fornication, adultery, abortion, drunkenness, stealing time and office supplies from my employer?  Why do I help the homeless, the widows and the orphans?  Why do I care about the souls and well being of people on getbig, people whose names I don't even know?  Why do I bother?  Not out of fear, but out of love for the Lord and out of the love for my neighbor.  And where does this love come from?  Jesus Christ.  Where does my faith come from?  Jesus Christ.  My faith does not come from me.  I didn't change me.  Jesus Christ changed me.

Ephesians 2:8
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God"

Romans 10:17
"Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ."

[Oldschool Flip]

If I didn't feel that I was in the right with The Lord, I would not be afraid of hell, if that's what you mean. I know for sure that I am not going to hell no matter what I do since Jesus Christ already died for my sins. 

Then why do I not live a life of fornication, adultery, abortion, drunkenness, stealing time and office supplies from my employer?  Why do I help the homeless, the widows and the orphans?  Why do I care about the souls and well being of people on getbig, people whose names I don't even know?  Why do I bother?  Not out of fear, but out of love for the Lord and out of the love for my neighbor.  And where does this love come from?  Jesus Christ.  Where does my faith come from?  Jesus Christ.  My faith does not come from me.  I didn't change me.  Jesus Christ changed me.

Funny I have those same traits and Jesus Christ didn't influence me. Common sense did. You ALWAYS get ahead in life if you are a nicer person. Maybe not in the business world, but I feel that even a nice business executive would be more respected than one who didn't. People in Africa don't all have Jesus Christ and some of the people that are portrayed are people who are humble and give you as much as they could if they had it.

[OzmO]

Oldschool i think you right about what we talked about earlier 

[Oldschool Flip]

So here's a question: If Cho Seung Hui was a Christian, and according to some reports I've have heard here on radio he was, if he has accepted Jesus Christ as his Savior, is he going to heaven?

[OzmO]

It's a get out of jail free card.

 

Of course he's going to heaven.

[loco]

It's a get out of jail free card.

Free? No, not free.  A very high price was paid.

[loco]

So here's a question: If Cho Seung Hui was a Christian, and according to some reports I've have heard here on radio he was, if he has accepted Jesus Christ as his Savior, is he going to heaven?

You are kidding, right?  He was no Christian.  You should know that.

[loco]

Funny I have those same traits and Jesus Christ didn't influence me. Common sense did. You ALWAYS get ahead in life if you are a nicer person. Maybe not in the business world, but I feel that even a nice business executive would be more respected than one who didn't. People in Africa don't all have Jesus Christ and some of the people that are portrayed are people who are humble and give you as much as they could if they had it.

Then you are a good and moral man by your own merits and I commend you!

I don't claim to be good.  I claim to be only a sinner who has been forgiven and transformed by Jesus Christ.  I have nothing to brag about except Jesus Christ.  I have nothing to boast about except Jesus Christ.

[OzmO]

Free? No, not free.  A very high price was paid.

Yes, very free.  EXTREMELY FREE.


It doesn't cost anyone anything.  They just say:  I accpet that Christ died on the corss for my sins and everything is forgiven.  then if they have sex with men and do crank or meth and lead a church they still are forgiven.  So why try?

ANd what of the price paid by Jesus?

What price?  lol

He was GOD on earth who went through death....something every human goes through.  EVERYONE.  And Jesus did it by choice,  not like the ones who died under Moses's hand by GOD order.

And his suffering?  He suffered for a day.  People routinely get torture for months, endure slow painful deaths, watch their children die in front of them by Wars or Evils god created, and GOD let's this happen and you want to make a BIG deal of Jesus all powerful God dying on the cross and some ultimate sacrifice?

Oh please.

Did GOd (Jesus) have to worry or fear about anything?  no.

Sometimes, loco, Christians are so easily manipulated by guilt.

[OzmO]

Then you are a good and moral man by your own merits and I commend you!

I don't claim to be good.  I claim to be only a sinner who has been forgiven and transformed by Jesus Christ.  I have nothing to brag about except Jesus Christ.  I have nothing to boast about except Jesus Christ.

loco,  you sell God's creation (you) short.

too bad, you have this opinion of God's creation. 

God is in all of us,  we all have to power to live a good life by the power of choice he gave us.  It is very possible to liv e by the ten commandments.  But it isn't possible to live by all the crap rule and things religion calls sin....you know why?  because that's how they manipulate you.  they make you try an deny your humanity.....something God gave you.

[OzmO]

You are kidding, right?  He was no Christian.  You should know that.

How do you know who's a Christian or not?  If he accepted Christ as his savior then he was. 

Don't Christians routinely sell the idea that all you have to do is accept Christ as your savior?

Or is that not true and is all the preachers lying?

what if "god" told him to do it?  How do you know he didn't?  How do you know GOD, did another one of his chicken shit things and had some one else do the killing for him?

Christians are so quick to judge. 

(before you respond, remember i am a very devote believer in GOD.  I just don't believe in the BS organized religion's manipulative crap such as what's twisted as interpretations of the Bible and it's obvious lack of being 100% God's word. )

[Wikidudeman]

Circles are round, spheres are round, the earth is round.  What's your point? 

Spheres are round from all angles. Circles aren't.

Skeptics have argued before that the Bible implies a "flat square with four corners." in one place.  But they too are wrong because the Bible is simply talking about North, South, East and West in that verse.  So they disagree with your "disk" theory.

"Corners" and "directions" aren't the same thing.

You are taking a Bible verse and stretching the truth with it to fit your argument, just like many cults do.

Nope...

Isa 40:22
[It is] he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof [are] as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

No.  You keep saying "This had been known for a long long time prior." which is not true and you post no reference. 

What do you mean by I haven't had experience with your arguments?  How have I not addressed them?  I am pressed for time.  Is there one in particular that you would like me to address?

You haven't addressed them because you never replied to them. Read this post and reply to every argument I refuted of yours.

http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic
=141898.msg2026835#msg2026835

Relax.  I wasn't talking about you specifically.  I was talking about the opposing sources that I have read.  One example is some skeptics say the Gospels were written around 135 AD, while others say no, they were written around 45 AD.  Some say there was no census when Jesus was born, others say that there was, while others say that we don't know for sure.

Which bible skeptics say the Gospels were written around 45AD?

But now that I remember, you say the Bible implies the earth is a flat disk, while other skeptics say the Bible implies a flat squre with four corners.

It does both. Two different authors wrote both of those implications.

And I thank you, but you only picked a few.  There is a long list.  Why don't you go through it and refute all of them at your convenience.  And please post references when you simply say "This had been known for a long long time prior."

I refuted what you posted. I won't refute more until you acknowledge what I have already refuted.

[loco]

So OzmO and Oldschool Flip,

You guys are so familiar with God's plan of salivation, and you mock it.  You are now without excuse.  You two will stand before a  holy God and give an account for what you are posting here, along with everything else that you have done.

When did this murderer accept Jesus Christ?  Before or during the shooting?  Or was it right before he shot himself?   

Does he represent to you what the average Christian is and does?  Is that what Jesus preached?  You believe that the average Christian, or that most Christians go around murdering people?

You are incapable of having an intelligent discussion or debate without insulting and mocking, which clearly shows the weakness in your arguments and convictions.

You guys claim to be so nice, good and moral on your own merits, yet you come here and mock other people's faith.  You laugh, ridicule and insult others.  You insult God and mock His Son and His wonderful plan of salvation which He provided for you.  Even if you could get to heaven for being good, I have news for you guys, you fall short. So if Christians are wrong, you two are screwed.  And if Christians are right, you two are still screwed.

Now OzmO and Oldschool Flip are joining Tre in proclaiming that all Jews and Christians are mass murderers.  Good one, guys!

[OzmO]

So OzmO and Oldschool Flip,

You guys are so familiar with God's plan of salivation, and you mock it.  You are now without excuse.  You two will stand before a  holy God and give an account for what you are posting here, along with everything else that you have done.

When did this murderer accept Jesus Christ?  Before or during the shooting?  Or was it right before he shot himself?   

Does he represent to you what the average Christian is and does?  Is that what Jesus preached?  You believe that the average Christian, or that most Christians go around murdering people?

You are incapable of having an intelligent discussion or debate without insulting and mocking, which clearly shows the weakness in your arguments and convictions.

You guys claim to be so nice, good and moral on your own merits, yet you come here and mock other people's faith.  You laugh, ridicule and insult others.  You insult God and mock His Son and His wonderful plan of salvation which He provided for you.  Even if you could get to heaven for being good, I have news for you guys, you fall short. So if Christians are wrong, you two are screwed.  And if Christians are right, you two are still screwed.

Now OzmO and Oldschool Flip are joining Tre in proclaiming that all Jews and Christians are mass murderers.  Good one, guys!

Way to avoid the issues i brought up by casting judgment loco.  I'm not surprised because it is very typical of most "thumper" style Christians.

You never answered the question:  How do you know Cho wasn't a Christian?  How do you know he didn't accept Jesus as his Savior in a Christian Church and was baptized long before he did his shooting?

You will not answer or ask your self those questions because it will conflict with what you've chose to believe, it will shatter your glass house, so then you immediately assume he wasn't a Christian.  This is the kind of mistaken blind faith that leads to judgment which eventually leads to suffering in the name of religion.  How many before you have twisted the words of this Bible and have used it to torture, repress and kill other people?   If it (the bible) was the TRUE word of GOD, it would stand without question, it would be simple it's meaning would last for ages.  Like:  Thou shall not kill.

You will accept accountability based on the Bible and the Church but you will not hold the God in Exodus accountable for his own hypocrisy.  Because if you did that your faith's legitimacy might unravel or be in question.  Instead you cop it out by saying those men were God's creation and he has the right to kill them with out moral consequence.  He took the lives of 3000 men, from 3000 mothers, for something very trivial.   He did this by ordering other men to murder these 3000 people, after he commanded them not to kill.   And this is your "loving" God as described in the Bible? 

Yes, Jews and Chrstians has murdered millions in the name of God.  It's a fact.  Stop spinning it.  So have millions of people been murdered int he name of other religions:  Hindu, Budists, Muslim etc...    Organized religion has it short comings.

And then you call my trivialization of Jesus's death on the cross as mocking what he did?  No, i'm only putting in the proper perspective.  People die much horrible deaths, and they are NOT GODS, Jesus was according to you.   But what's more ridiculous, is you use Jesus suffering as something significant when HE chose it, and he's GOD who had nothing to fear, but you use it as a GUILT weapon.  Very classic judgmental Christian ploy to manipulate and control.

So now we've come to this:

You two will stand before a  holy God and give an account for what you are posting here, along with everything else that you have done.

Who do you think you are?  You are God's voice now?  You know God's wishes?  You know what God's thinking now? 

Oh the righteous! 

Thump Thump.

All I've done is question you as you are so easy to quote the bible.   but when you are called on dogma bull crap is called mocking?   And then you say I'm incapable of having an intelligent discussion?   

It's a wonderful plan of salvation?  No it's a get out of jail free card with a control collar called Guilt and low self esteem.

[Oldschool Flip]

So OzmO and Oldschool Flip,

You guys are so familiar with God's plan of salivation, and you mock it.  You are now without excuse.  You two will stand before a  holy God and give an account for what you are posting here, along with everything else that you have done.

Man my list is going to be long...........

When did this murderer accept Jesus Christ?  Before or during the shooting?  Or was it right before he shot himself?   

Assumming that his family are devout Christians, and by the way his rants went on about priests and other Holy rituals, I am assuming he "might" also have been a Christian.

Does he represent to you what the average Christian is and does?  Is that what Jesus preached?  You believe that the average Christian, or that most Christians go around murdering people?

Of course he doesn't. I just posed a question. One that you haven't answered.

You are incapable of having an intelligent discussion or debate without insulting and mocking, which clearly shows the weakness in your arguments and convictions.

Actually it's more sarcasm then mocking and insulting. A lot of what I disbelieve is from a "book" written by followers.

You guys claim to be so nice, good and moral on your own merits, yet you come here and mock other people's faith.  You laugh, ridicule and insult others.  You insult God and mock His Son and His wonderful plan of salvation which He provided for you.  Even if you could get to heaven for being good, I have news for you guys, you fall short. So if Christians are wrong, you two are screwed.  And if Christians are right, you two are still screwed.

How would we be screwed if there is no heaven? And again, I never said Christians are bad, I am debating about the God they follow being an all loving God.

Now OzmO and Oldschool Flip are joining Tre in proclaiming that all Jews and Christians are mass murderers.  Good one, guys!

Okay now you're having a meltdown. I posed a questions and you're turning it into me saying Christians are mass murderers.

[loco]

So here's a question: If Cho Seung Hui was a Christian, and according to some reports I've have heard here on radio he was, if he has accepted Jesus Christ as his Savior, is he going to heaven?

And now, to answer your question...   

If Cho Seung Hui was a true Christian, if he in the past had accepted Jesus Christ as his Savior, then the only way that he could have done what he did is if he had truly gone insane before murdering those people.  If that's the case and both of these are true, then yes, he is in heaven according to the Bible.

Ephesians 2:8-9
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast."

Romans 3:23
"for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"

John 3:16
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

If Cho Seung Hui was not insane, then according to the Bible, his actions prove that he was never a Christian even if he thought that he was. 

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!

Matthew 7:16
"By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?"

Jude 4
"For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord."

Matthew 7:21
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven"

Matthew 7:22-23
"Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?'
Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'"

1 John 2:19
"They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us."

Matthew 7:13-14
"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.
But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it

[loco]

Thanks, Stella!   

[Wikidudeman]

The problem with the bible is that it's so vast, often vague and written by so many different authors that you can use it to support just about any view point you have. For instance I could claim that the bible opposes an afterlife (Ecclesiastes 9:5) or I could claim that humans existed before the other animals (Genesis 2:17-20), or I could even claim that the bible supports murdering an entire town of people including children, killing their livestock, piling up the bodies and all of their belongings into the street and torching it all as a burnt offering to God all simply for the town converting to another religion (Deuteronomy 13:13-19).

[Oldschool Flip]

And now, to answer your question...   

If Cho Seung Hui was a true Christian, if he in the past had accepted Jesus Christ as his Savior, then the only way that he could have done what he did is if he had truly gone insane before murdering those people.  If that's the case and both of these are true, then yes, he is in heaven according to the Bible.

Now based on that, the latter wouldn't matter to Christians, if any Christians "hated" him for what he did, wouldn't they be sinning because he was accepted by God? Could Christians, whose children were killed and their lives taken away from their families, have "love" for this "soul"? And if they didn't then would they not be fit to be in heaven? Now from my previous understandings of heaven, it is PERFECT so there should be no hate.

[loco]

Now based on that, the latter wouldn't matter to Christians, if any Christians "hated" him for what he did, wouldn't they be sinning because he was accepted by God? Could Christians, whose children were killed and their lives taken away from their families, have "love" for this "soul"? And if they didn't then would they not be fit to be in heaven? Now from my previous understandings of heaven, it is PERFECT so there should be no hate.

Oldschool Flip,
Jesus Christ teaches that we ought to love every one, even our enemies, and not to hate anyone.  I've witnessed Christians love and forgive the killer of their loved ones, even when the killer is still alive.  So, yes, Christians whose children were killed by this guy could have love for him.  They could hate him too.  Either way, if they are true Christians, according to the Bible, they too will go to heaven because they have believed in Jesus Christ.

You are correct.  There is no hating other persons in heaven, though God hates sin and we ought to hate sin too.  Those true Christians who hate the killer now, if there really are any who hate him, will love him in heaven.

[loco]

The problem with the bible is that it's so vast, often vague and written by so many different authors that you can use it to support just about any view point you have

If that were true, then why couldn't Muslims base their religion entirely on the Bible?  Why did they have to come up with their own book?  Same goes for Jehovah's Witness, Mormons, etc.  If what you are saying is true, why did they have to come up with their own book?

or I could even claim that the bible supports murdering an entire town of people including children, killing their livestock, piling up the bodies and all of their belongings into the street and torching it all as a burnt offering to God all simply for the town converting to another religion[/i] (Deuteronomy 13:13-19).

Wikidudeman,
Where did that quote come from?  Not from the Bible.  Where does it say to pile up bodies and burn them as an offering to God?  The God of the Bible never required human sacrifice.  God forbids it.  Even after asking Abraham to offer his son, God stopped him. 

This is what the Bible passage says, and it's talking about burning things, not people:

Deuteronomy 13:16  (King James Version)
16And thou shalt gather all the spoil of it into the midst of the street thereof, and shalt burn with fire the city, and all the spoil thereof every whit, for the LORD thy God: and it shall be an heap for ever; it shall not be built again.

Deuteronomy 13:16 (New King James Version)
And you shall gather all its plunder into the middle of the street, and completely burn with fire the city and all its plunder, for the LORD your God. It shall be a heap forever; it shall not be built again

Deuteronomy 13:16 (New International Version)
Gather all the plunder of the town into the middle of the public square and completely burn the town and all its plunder as a whole burnt offering to the LORD your God. It is to remain a ruin forever, never to be rebuilt.

Deuteronomy 13:16 (New American Standard Bible)
Then you shall gather all its booty into the middle of its open square and burn the city and all its booty with fire as a whole burnt offering to the LORD your God; and it shall be a ruin forever. It shall never be rebuilt.


 

[Oldschool Flip]

Oldschool Flip,
Jesus Christ teaches that we ought to love every one, even our enemies, and not to hate anyone.

See that's a ironic statement by Jesus. If you were to love someone, how could they be your enemy? 

I've witnessed Christians love and forgive the killer of their loved ones, even when the killer is still alive.  So, yes, Christians whose children were killed by this guy could have love for him.  They could hate him too.  Either way, if they are true Christians, according to the Bible, they too will go to heaven because they have believed in Jesus Christ.

I also have witnessed people, by way of documentaries and such, forgiving people. Hate can really destroy you emotionally.

You are correct.  There is no hating other persons in heaven, though God hates sin and we ought to hate sin too.  Those true Christians who hate the killer now, if there really are any who hate him, will love him in heaven.

How is this? Please explain how if on Earth they hate him, but once in heaven they will love him.

[loco]

See that's a ironic statement by Jesus. If you were to love someone, how could they be your enemy? 

Your enemies are those people who mean you and your loved ones harm.  Christians ought to love those people, even while they mean us and our loved ones harm.

How is this? Please explain how if on Earth they hate him, but once in heaven they will love him.

As Christians grow spiritually, we become more and more like Jesus Christ, who loved even those who tortured and killed Him.  Some Christians who hated people before, learn to love them later in life.  But it is not until we get to heaven that we will truly attain perfection.  Thus, if a Christian hates the murderer of a loved one, that Christian will eventually, in this life, forgive and love that murderer.  If that Christian dies before growing spiritually to that point, that Christian will attain perfection in heaven anyway and love that murderer in heaven.