No such thing as an Atheist?

[OzmO]

You are correct, in the end they were killed for making and worshiping the calf.  But the whole story shows that God is good, merciful and just.

God is good and gave them freedom from the Egyptians, gave them bread from heaven when they asked for bread, gave them meat when they asked for meat, gave them water when they asked for water.

God is good and spoke to them when they asked to hear God's voice as a sign.

God is merciful and gave them a second chance even after they had made and worshiped the golden calf.

God was just when He killed them, not only for their disobedience, but also for refusing to repent.  God did not kill them for being good boys.  These were evil men.  Sorry, I will not defend them!  If God had not killed them, God would not be just.

so if i give my son 3 and 4 chances before i kill him it makes it all ok?

[OzmO]

No and No.  Where do you get this from?

'

From the point you made about the potential for those 3000 to sacrifice a child.

[loco]

'

From the point you made about the potential for those 3000 to sacrifice a child.

so if i give my son 3 and 4 chances before i kill him it makes it all ok?

What would you have done, OzmO, if you were God?  Would you have smacked their hand and told them not to do it again?

[OzmO]

What would you have done, OzmO, if you were God?  Would you have smacked their hand and told them not to do it again?

Do you have kids loco?

What ever i did, i wouldn't have ordered their death for what they did.

[loco]

Do you have kids loco?

What ever i did, i wouldn't have ordered their death for what they did.

No, I don't.  And I know you do.  And I know that you love your child and that you would not order the death of your child unless...

...God forbid, you became a judge and your child became a criminal and stood in your court and you were forced to condemn him to death.  You would be forced as a judge to abide by the law of the land which would require you to condemn and sentence your own child to death.  If you did not, out of love for your child, that would make you a bad and unjust judge.  Tough situation, that we put God in some times.

Nevertheless, you did not answer my question.  You question God's judgement as if our finite minds could understand an infinite God.  I always wonder if people think they could do a better job than God at running the universe. 

I believe God handled the situation with mercy and justice.  But even if I didn't, it does not matter.  He is still God, the highest authority, and He can do whatever He wills.

[OzmO]

No, I don't.  And I know you do.  And I know that you love your child and that you would not order the death of your child unless...

...God forbid, you became a judge and your child became a criminal and stood in your court and you were forced to condemn him to death.  You would be forced as a judge to abide by the law of the land which would require you to condemn and sentence your own child to death.  If you did not, out of love for your child, that would make you a bad and unjust judge.  Tough situation, that we put God in some times.

Nevertheless, you did not answer my question.  You question God's judgement as if our finite minds could understand an infinite God.  I always wonder if people think they could do a better job than God at running the universe. 

I believe God handled the situation with mercy and justice.  But even if I didn't, it does not matter.  He is still God, the highest authority, and He can do whatever He wills.

I'm not saying i could run the universe better then God.  Remember what I'm saying is that the "god" identified in Exodus that ordered the death of 3000 men and then plaque the others is not God.   

Also, think about the comparison you made as a judge ordering my children to death.......   What did my children do to deserve that?  I can only think that they also killed, something those 3000 didn't do.

[Colossus_500]

I'm not saying i could run the universe better then God.  Remember what I'm saying is that the "god" identified in Exodus that ordered the death of 3000 men and then plaque the others is not God.   

Also, think about the comparison you made as a judge ordering my children to death.......   What did my children do to deserve that?  I can only think that they also killed, something those 3000 didn't do.

OzmO, is this your whole hang-up with God and how He is depicted in the Bible?  Why do you have trouble with God doing away with the 3000 men?  God is not only good (which is what I believe you want to hold most dear to your belief in him), but He is also just.  Only God can place the judgement that we've seen over history.  While God is just is still all-loving. 

[OzmO]

OzmO, is this your whole hang-up with God and how He is depicted in the Bible?  Why do you have trouble with God doing away with the 3000 men?  God is not only good (which is what I believe you want to hold most dear to your belief in him), but He is also just.  Only God can place the judgement that we've seen over history.  While God is just is still all-loving. 

My hang up, is that the Bible is not a consistent representation of God.

[loco]

I'm not saying i could run the universe better then God.  Remember what I'm saying is that the "god" identified in Exodus that ordered the death of 3000 men and then plaque the others is not God.   

Also, think about the comparison you made as a judge ordering my children to death.......   What did my children do to deserve that?  I can only think that they also killed, something those 3000 didn't do.

OzmO, I am honestly interested in what you would do with those 3000 men if you were God, given the exact same situation.  Think about it.  Take your time.  What could God have done to make you believe that the God in Exodus is the One True God?

[loco]

My hang up, is that the Bible is not a consistent representation of God.

But that's just your opinion, OzmO.  The God of the Bible is consistent, as I have shown you in the case of the Golden Calf.  You may still disagree with me, but I have shown you why I do not see the inconsistency that you see. 

[loco]

Also, think about the comparison you made as a judge ordering my children to death.......   What did my children do to deserve that?  I can only think that they also killed, something those 3000 didn't do.

What if, God forbid, your children joined a terrorist group which had committed numerous murders of innocent people, got caught and ended up in your court, not having had the chance "yet" to kill anyone?

You make it look as if God was being petty and you said that God killed these 3000 men, with no warning and with no chance to repent, only for being insecure.  All of these are far from the truth.  God was trying to rid Israel of these child killing, detestable forms of worship. God was doing a good thing, because God is good.

[ToxicAvenger]

First, do you know the combined weight of all the sand on all the beaches of Hawaii? We can safely assume that you don't. This brings us to the second question: Do you know how many hairs are on the back of a fully-grown male Tibetan yak?

weight of sand = 40.638 trillion lbs
hair = 40 trillion


prove me wrong!

[OzmO]

What if, God forbid, your children joined a terrorist group which had committed numerous murders of innocent people, got caught and ended up in your court, not having had the chance "yet" to kill anyone?

You make it look as if God was being petty and you said that God killed these 3000 men, with no warning and with no chance to repent, only for being insecure.  All of these are far from the truth.  God was trying to rid Israel of these child killing, detestable forms of worship. God was doing a good thing, because God is good.

God is being petty because of the act of killing them for the reasons he did......very un-divine!   Not petty for whether or not he gave them chances.   

And you call what he did good?      That's terrible you'd think killing 3000 people for making a gold calf and dis-obeying orders. In his omnipotence he couldn't find a better way?  OM(gosh)!   

This is a good example of the indifference and detachment from human compassion and moral accountability in the name of religion I've talked about.

If my children had already murdered people they would have to stand trial for that and face the consequences.  It's a poor comparison because what those 3000 did is not near as bad as killing someone.  Unless of course they disrespected.........whi ch is something God is far above getting all "butt hurt" over.  (something my daughter said the other day  )

[OzmO]

But that's just your opinion, OzmO.  The God of the Bible is consistent, as I have shown you in the case of the Golden Calf.  You may still disagree with me, but I have shown you why I do not see the inconsistency that you see. 

The inconsistently is "god" acting more like a human vs God acting divine.

[OzmO]

OzmO, I am honestly interested in what you would do with those 3000 men if you were God, given the exact same situation.  Think about it.  Take your time.  What could God have done to make you believe that the God in Exodus is the One True God?

I'd cast the 3000 out from the group of what was it 600,000?  If everything I've done doesn't get them to believe then they should go their own way.

I certainly wouldn't resort to a jealous raging mad man like action like killing them.

[loco]

God is being petty because of the act of killing them for the reasons he did......very un-divine!   Not petty for whether or not he gave them chances.   

And you call what he did good?      That's terrible you'd think killing 3000 people for making a gold calf and dis-obeying orders. In his omnipotence he couldn't find a better way?  OM(gosh)!   

This is a good example of the indifference and detachment from human compassion and moral accountability in the name of religion I've talked about.

OzmO, you yourself said that God left the children of 3000 men fatherless.  What God really did was save the lives of 3000 + children who were about to be sacrificed to the golden calf.  And you, a father, say that this is not a good thing?  They may very well had already sacrificed some children.  You assume that they didn't, but we don't know that.  These two scriptures show that to be sure that they didn't sacrificed children to the golden calf is nothing but an assumption:

 Deuteronomy 12:31
"in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the LORD hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods."

2 Kings 17:14-17
"But they would not listen and were as stiff-necked as their fathers, who did not trust in the LORD their God. 15 They rejected his decrees and the covenant he had made with their fathers and the warnings he had given them. They followed worthless idols and themselves became worthless. They imitated the nations around them although the LORD had ordered them, "Do not do as they do," and they did the things the LORD had forbidden them to do. 
They forsook all the commands of the LORD their God and made for themselves two idols cast in the shape of calves, and an Asherah pole. They bowed down to all the starry hosts, and they worshiped Baal. 17 They sacrificed their sons and daughters in the fire."

You honestly are going to tell me that you don't believe it was a matter of time before they would scarify their children to the golden calf? 

Were you God, you would have let those children die?  That would make you believe the God of Exodus is the One True God?

If my children had already murdered people they would have to stand trial for that and face the consequences.  It's a poor comparison because what those 3000 did is not near as bad as killing someone.

That is not what I asked, OzmO.  Read my question again.  Your children would be executed for joining a murderous terrorist group, even if they had not "YET" had the time or the chance to kill anyone. 

[loco]

I'd cast the 3000 out from the group of what was it 600,000?  If everything I've done doesn't get them to believe then they should go their own way.

What about their freedom to worship anyway they want that you spoke of earlier?  You would cast them out of the nation of Israel because they chose a different way to worship?

You would let them go their way and burn their sons and daughters to their "god"? 

[OzmO]

What about their freedom to worship anyway they want that you spoke of earlier?  You would cast them out of the nation of Israel because they chose a different way to worship?

You would let them go their way and burn their sons and daughters to their "god"? 

 ,  In a nation they would be allowed religious freedoms so long as there aren't victims.


But let's see what did "GOD" do?  He just killed them. what would happen in this day if BUSH or that Iranian president did that?

That is not GOD that killed those 3000 men.

[loco]

,  In a nation they would be allowed religious freedoms so long as there aren't victims.

In this case there are victims and you know it.

But let's see what did "GOD" do?  He just killed them. what would happen in this day if BUSH or that Iranian president did that?

That is not GOD that killed those 3000 men.

These men were not just "insecure" as you put it.  They were evil and I really don't understand why you insist on defending them. 

[OzmO]

In this case there are victims and you know it.

These men were not just "insecure" as you put it.  They were evil and I really don't understand why you insist on defending them. 

We have religious freedoms in this country that don't include human sacrifice.  Many other countries through history have been able to do the same thing......and you know it.  That's what laws are for.  Why am i having to explain this to you?  Are you intentionally being obtuse?  You allow religious freedom and outlaw human sacrifice.


That's what a reasonable person or entity would have done with the 3000 who wanted to be in Israel but did not believe the voice on the mountain with the power of plagues, sea parting, etc... was GOD.  which is a stupid premise to begin with they wouldn't see it as "God" and hints more of rewriting history to make those 3000 look evil and thus justify murdering them.   

I agree human sacrifice is evil.  But until a crime has been committed you do not punish people.   that's barbaric, uncivilized and facist at best.  All of which aren't characteristic of a divine God, but instead of a insecure human like moses who had to scare his people into submission.

The more and more you and i explore this area of Exodus the more and more I'm seeing that some of this story is probably a bunch of made up crap to cover up a mass murder...........in the name of God.

[loco]

We have religious freedoms in this country that don't include human sacrifice.  Many other countries through history have been able to do the same thing......and you know it.  That's what laws are for.  Why am i having to explain this to you?  Are you intentionally being obtuse?  You allow religious freedom and outlaw human sacrifice.


That's what a reasonable person or entity would have done with the 3000 who wanted to be in Israel but did not believe the voice on the mountain with the power of plagues, sea parting, etc... was GOD.  which is a stupid premise to begin with they wouldn't see it as "God" and hints more of rewriting history to make those 3000 look evil and thus justify murdering them.   

I agree human sacrifice is evil.  But until a crime has been committed you do not punish people.   that's barbaric, uncivilized and facist at best.  All of which are characteristic of a divine God, but instead of a insecure human like moses.

You are dodging the questions, OzmO.

Based on what you know about this event now, you honestly are going to tell me that you don't believe it was a matter of time before they would sacrify their children to the golden calf? 

Were you God, you would have let those children die?  That's barbaric.  That would make you believe the God of Exodus is the One True God?

God saved 3,000+ children and you think this is bad? 

You would let them go their way and burn their sons and daughters to their "god"? 

What if, God forbid, your children joined a terrorist group which had committed numerous murders of innocent people, got caught and ended up in your court, not having had the chance "YET" to kill anyone?

[OzmO]

You are dodging the questions, OzmO.

Based on what you know about this event now, you honestly are going to tell me that you don't believe it was a matter of time before they would sacrify their children to the golden calf? 

Are you reading what I'm saying??

You outlaw the practice and the second it happens you punish those responsible.

That's how civilized people operate......are you civilized?   Are you one of those who say shoot first ask questions later?   Com on LOCO.

Were you God, you would have let those children die?  That's barbaric.  That would make you believe the God of Exodus is the One True God?

Children hadn't been sacrificed.......and even so loco,  God didn't do a dam thing about all the centuries leading up to that in the WORLD so it's a poor argument to say he was just then doing something about then....and he didn't do anything about after that either as it still continued around the world.  open your eyes  for a minute.


Moses murdered 3000 men.  God didn't order him to do so.  Moses conveniently said "god told him to do it"

[loco]

Are you reading what I'm saying??

You outlaw the practice and the second it happens you punish those responsible.

That's like saying "You may join a murderous terrorist group, as long as you don't kill anybody."

Children hadn't been sacrificed

You assume.

.......and even so loco,  God didn't do a dam thing about all the centuries leading up to that in the WORLD

You assume.  You read about the flood.

You did not directly answer any of my questions:

Based on what you know about this event now, you honestly are going to tell me that you don't believe it was a matter of time before they would sacrify their children to the golden calf? 

Were you God, you would have let those children die?  That's barbaric.  That would make you believe the God of Exodus is the One True God?

God saved 3,000+ children and you think this is bad? 

You would let them go their way and burn their sons and daughters to their "god"? 

What if, God forbid, your children joined a terrorist group which had committed numerous murders of innocent people, got caught and ended up in your court, not having had the chance "YET" to kill anyone?

[OzmO]

That's like saying "You may join a murderous terrorist group, as long as you don't kill anybody."

People are allowed to join any group religious or other wise in this country so long as they don;t break the laws.   Seems to work just fine here.

You assume.

Goes both ways.   But if they had sacrificed children don't you think "god" would have made sure that was noted.  and even then, only those who were involved (the killer and those who collected the children) should have been punished.

You assume.  You read about the flood.

So between the flood, and moses and moses and now there haven't been human sacrifices practiced for centuries?  You have degree in history or science?   Com on loco.  read some history books.

God saved 3,000+ children and you think this is bad?

You would let them go their way and burn their sons and daughters to their "god"?

What if, God forbid, your children joined a terrorist group which had committed numerous murders of innocent people, got caught and ended up in your court, not having had the chance "YET" to kill anyone?

here:

You outlaw the practice and the second it happens you punish those responsible.

And if my kids joined a terrorist group?   If they got caught should they be executed if they didn't participate in murders?   Are you seriously asking me this?   Of course not,  just like those 3000 should not have been murdered.


Loco,  there's no way around it.  Moses murdered those people, not GOD.  The Bible is NOT the 100% word of God.

[loco]

People are allowed to join any group religious or other wise in this country so long as they don;t break the laws.   Seems to work just fine here.

Goes both ways.   But if they had sacrificed children don't you think "god" would have made sure that was noted.  and even then, only those who were involved (the killer and those who collected the children) should have been punished.

So between the flood, and moses and moses and now there haven't been sacrifices?  You have degree in history or science?   Com on loco.  read some history books.

here:

And if my kids joined a terrorist group?   If they got caught should they be executed if they didn't participate in murders?   Are you seriously asking me this?   Of course not,  just like those 3000 should not have been murdered.


Loco,  there's no way around it.  Moses murdered those people, not GOD.  The Bible is NOT the 100% word of God.

Oh, people are allowed to join murderous, terrorists groups in the US and that in itself is not against the law?  Okay, my mistake.

Like I said, OzmO, I don't expect to change your mind.  But a lot of this is just your opinion, to which you are entitled to.  These were evil men, not innocent, "insecure" men as you put it.  I have good reasons for not sharing your skepticism and I have good reasons for not seeing your inconsistencies.