questioning my faith

[loco]

By the very assertion:

If you do or don't do this you will get this.

Religion promotes this, establishes institutions, buildings etc... all centered around attracting followers to be saved or what have you.

Religions use the fear of total death and the promise of an afterlife to motivate you to "do" or "don't" do certain things.  That is control and and a form of manipulation.

Atheists do nothing of the sort.   They don;t try and convert you to atheism they merely tell you what they think.  You don;t see atheists preaching, converting, promising etc...

that's the difference, that's why I disagree with your post and believe it's way off base.

I do recall atheist students in college distributing literature just like Christians distribute Bibles.  I also recall these atheists having their own meetings and inviting people to their meetings, just like Christians invite others to church.

OzmO,
What about the Soviet Union, Cuba and China?  At one time, they banned religion and they controlled people.  They said, if you believe in God, you go to prison and could be executed(hell?).  They said, if you do not believe in God, then you keep your "freedom" (heaven?).  Doesn't communism and socialism preach that "All" must agree and believe the same?  So these atheist leaders force people to believe as they do.

By the way, people who believe in God are harder to control.  That is why the first thing many dictators do is to ban religion.  They fear people who believe in God because they know that true believers are willing to die for their beliefs and will not give up their beliefs even when imprisoned and tortured.

[OzmO]

I do recall atheist students in college distributing literature just like Christians distribute Bibles.  I also recall these atheists having their own meetings and inviting people to their meetings, just like Christians invite others to church.

On the scale the rest of humanity has over the last 2000 years?   Com on loco, that's comparing a 1 foot mound to mount Everest.

OzmO,
What about the Soviet Union, Cuba and China?  At one time, they banned religion and they controlled people.  They said, if you believe in God, you go to prison and could be executed(hell?).  They said, if you do not believe in God, then you keep your "freedom" (heaven?).  Doesn't communism and socialism preach that "All" must agree and believe the same?  So these atheist leaders force people to believe as they do.

They forbid organized religion.  No one can regulate what a person believes in. But they can regulate organized public versions of it.  I don't agree with that of course.  And don't read too much into what execution and freedom are. they are not heaven and hell.

By the way, people who believe in God are harder to control.  That is why the first thing many dictators do is to ban religion.  They fear people who believe in God because they know that true believers are willing to die for their beliefs and will not give up their beliefs even when imprisoned and tortured.

Absolutely wrong.  Religious people are only hard to control when you challenge their faith.  But, with-in their faith they are all too easy to control.  Any dictator who has taken power that has survived has realized this.  In fact religious people can be manipulated to justify or turn a blind eye to genocide. 

[loco]

On the scale the rest of humanity has over the last 2000 years?   Com on loco, that's comparing a 1 foot mound to mount Everest.

They forbid organized religion.  No one can regulate what a person believes in. But they can regulate organized public versions of it.  I don't agree with that of course.  And don't read too much into what execution and freedom are. they are not heaven and hell.
 

Absolutely wrong.  Religious people are only hard to control when you challenge their faith.  But, with-in their faith they are all too easy to control.  Any dictator who has taken power that has survived has realized this.  In fact religious people can be manipulated to justify or turn a blind eye to genocide. 

It doesn't matter.  The point is that you made a general statement that Atheists do not attempt to control other people just as they say Christians do.  You state that they do not want other men to think like them, to adopt their ideals and philosophies and put them to practice within our everyday life.  But the truth is that many Atheists do these, but are quick to point fingers and accuse Christians of doing the same.

[OzmO]

It doesn't matter.  The point is that you made a general statement that Atheists do not attempt to control other people just as they say Christians do.  You state that they do not want other men to think like them, to adopt their ideals and philosophies and put them to practice within our everyday life.  But the truth is that many Atheists do these, but are quick to point fingers and accuse Christians of doing the same.

Not true.   You can make a point by saying you saw  a few people in college promoting their beliefs. But to compare it to the wholesale movement of billions of people, through out time, to promote their religion by building churches, infecting government and flat out killing people in their  religion's name is stupid.

Fact is, what those college "kids" were doing is far from being indicative from religious zealots do and religion as a whole does:

"If you don't or do "this" you will go to heaven or hell."

[loco]

Not true.   You can make a point by saying you saw  a few people in college promoting their beliefs. But to compare it to the wholesale movement of billions of people, through out time, to promote their religion by building churches, infecting government and flat out killing people in their  religion's name to stupid.

Fact is, what those college "kids" were doing is far from being indicative from religious zealots do and religion as a whole does:

"If you don't or do "this" you will go to heaven or hell."

OzmO,
Many Atheists around the world are zealots.  They spend much time, energy and money spreading Atheism.  Just look at the video that was posted on this thread.  Think of the time, energy and money that went into that film.   Google Atheist organizations, institutions, books, etc.  I personally know someone who went to a Christian seminary and this person had a classmate who was an Atheist.  This Atheist's sole purpose in life was to learn as much as possible about Christianity, The Bible, History, etc. to disprove Christianity.  Why?  Doesn't this Atheist have better things to do with his life?

These Atheists want everyone to believe as they do.  Why are they not happy with simply not believing in God?  Why do they want others not to believe in God?  If they are happy not believing in God, and others are happy believing in God, why do they insist on attempting to make other stop believing in God?

True Christians believe it is their responsibility to spread Christianity in order to save souls.   What is the Atheist's excuse?

[DK II]

I can also see a comparison with Buddhism (Pearson seems to have had a transcendental breakthrough) with Jesus in the role of the Bodhisattva

Whatever ones beliefs it's definitely an interesting story and worth the hour to listen

Yes, seeing Jesus as a bodhisattva is often stated in comparing buddhism with christianity.

[OzmO]

OzmO,
Many Atheists around the world are zealots.  They spend much time, energy and money spreading Atheism.  Just look at the video that was posted on this thread.  Think of the time, energy and money that went into that film.   Google Atheist organizations, institutions, books, etc.  I personally know someone who went to a Christian seminary and this person had a classmate who was an Atheist.  This Atheist's sole purpose in life was to learn as much as possible about Christianity, The Bible, History, etc. to disprove Christianity.  Why?  Doesn't this Atheist have better things to do with his life?

These Atheists want everyone to believe as they do.  Why are they not happy with simply not believing in God?  Why do they want others not to believe in God?  If they are happy not believing in God, and others are happy believing in God, why do they insist on attempting to make other stop believing in God?

True Christians believe it is their responsibility to spread Christianity in order to save souls.   What is the Atheist's excuse?

Again, you seem to be having a problem differentiating proportions and scale and using it to come to an incorrect conclusion.

True Christians believe it is their responsibility to spread Christianity in order to save souls.   What is the Atheist's excuse?

You are liking the Christians  responsibility to spread Christianity as an excuse?

[loco]

Again, you seem to be having a problem differentiating proportions and scale and using it to come to an incorrect conclusion.

You lost me, OzmO.  I didn't know we were talking about proportions.  I didn't know the statement the other guy made that you disagreed with had anything to do with proportions.  And did you even google what I suggested?  Are you talking about proportions in your neighborhood, in the US, or in the entire world?

You are liking the Christians  responsibility to spread Christianity as an excuse?

Sorry, I do not understand your question!

[OzmO]

You lost me, OzmO.  I didn't know we were talking about proportions.  I didn't know the statement the other guy made that you disagreed with had anything to do with proportions.  And did you even google what I suggested?  Are you talking about proportions in your neighborhood, in the US, or in the entire world?

This is what was originally said:

The irony of all this is that the some of the godless folks, who cry about religion trying to control people are attempting to do the very same thing themselves. They want other men to think like them, to adopt their ideals and philosophies and put them to practice within our everyday life.

Religion tries and tell what's right and wrong and tells you how to live your life.  Atheists tells there is no god.  Religion has dogma.  They erect churches, get involved in government etc...  Atheists don't on the scale and magnitude organized religion does.  Geez, you don;t see atheists becoming suicide bombers  .  How many wars were faught over religious beliefs loco?   I'm sure nearly all of them used relgion in some sort of way to "manipulate" people to commit acts of extreme violence INCLUDING Christianity.

to argue that atheists do some of the same things organized religion is stupid becuase anything they do be it on a college campus is tiny compared to what organized religion has done to try and influence the world.

True Christians believe it is their responsibility to spread Christianity in order to save souls.   What is the Atheist's excuse?

I didn't know what did was considered an excuse.

[loco]

This is what was originally said:

Religion tries and tell what's right and wrong and tells you how to live your life.  Atheists tells there is no god.  Religion has dogma.  They erect churches, get involved in government etc...  Atheists don't on the scale and magnitude organized religion does.  Geez, you don;t see atheists becoming suicide bombers  .  How many wars were faught over religious beliefs loco?   I'm sure nearly all of them used relgion in some sort of way to "manipulate" people to commit acts of extreme violence INCLUDING Christianity.

to argue that atheists do some of the same things organized religion is stupid becuase anything they do be it on a college campus is tiny compared to what organized religion has done to try and influence the world.
I didn't know what did was considered an excuse.

Nobody is denying that Christianity and other religions can, have, and unfortunately will be used by evil people to control good, gullible people who don't read and study the word of God.   

Many things, other than religion have been used to control people throughout history, secular media, clubs, gangs, government, fear of "the enemy", fear of a bad economy, etc.

But It doesn't matter.  Still, those same atheists that spend time, money and energy trying to disprove Christianity are trying to get people to believe as they do.  They are trying to control people.  And stop calling those Atheist college students "college kids".  The leaders and many of the member were not kids.  These were men in their late 20s, 30s and 40s, graduate students.  And I am not just talking about them, I am talking about all of the websites, books, audio and video material that is out there to get people to stop believing in God. 

Many godless people out there who have an agenda and want to control people, believe that they first need to get people to stop believing in God before they can be controlled.

[OzmO]

Nobody is denying that Christianity and other religions can, have, and unfortunately will be used by evil people to control good, gullible people who don't read and study the word of God.   

Many things, other than religion have been used to control people throughout history, secular media, clubs, gangs, government, fear of "the enemy", fear of a bad economy, etc.

But It doesn't matter.  Still, those same atheists that spend time, money and energy trying to disprove Christianity are trying to get people to believe as they do.  They are trying to control people.  And stop calling those Atheist college students "college kids".  The leaders and many of the member were not kids.  These were men in their late 20s, 30s and 40s, graduate students.  And I am not just talking about them, I am talking about all of the websites, books, audio and video material that is out there to get people to stop believing in God. 

Many godless people out there who have an agenda and want to control people, believe that they first need to get people to stop believing in God before they can be controlled.

Show me where atheists spend time and money near the scale religion has.

Show me where an atheists movement or dogma was used to start a war.

Show me where an atheists tell you will burn in hell if you don't do this or do that.

[DK II]

This thread needs Claudia Schiffer.

[loco]

Show me where atheists spend time and money near the scale religion has.

Show me where an atheists movement or dogma was used to start a war.

Show me where an atheists tell you will burn in hell if you don't do this or do that.

Why and what for?  I can't show you that.  That is not what I'm saying.  You don't need that to control people.  This is what I'm saying:

those same atheists that spend time, money and energy trying to disprove Christianity are trying to get people to believe as they do.  They are trying to control people.   

Many godless people out there who have an agenda and want to control people, believe that they first need to get people to stop believing in God before they can be controlled.

[homer77]

loco- i disagree
i think athiests need to share what they believe because it is rational and it urks them to see people blindly follow fairy tales.  its like seeing an idiot in the gym doing 1/4 squats with x5 too much weight.  you want to share what you know is right. 

now, i still dont know what i believe, but im not athiest. 

[loco]

loco- i disagree
i think athiests need to share what they believe because it is rational and it urks them to see people blindly follow fairy tales.  its like seeing an idiot in the gym doing 1/4 squats with x5 too much weight.  you want to share what you know is right. 

now, i still dont know what i believe, but im not athiest. 

homer77,
That is true and I agree with you, but my argument is that some atheists do want to and do control people, especially those who spend large amounts of money, time and energy trying to get people to stop believing in God.  Religion is not the only thing that has been used to control people.

[Straw Man]

homer77,
That is true and I agree with you, but my argument is that some atheists do want to and do control people, especially those who spend large amounts of money, time and energy trying to get people to stop believing in God.  Religion is not the only thing that has been used to control people.

you might find this 3 part series from the BBC interesting:

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article13868.htm

right click video and choose "zoom" for full screen.

If "zoom" is not available then click options, go to advanced options and add full screen mode and then go back and try the zoom function again.

[OzmO]

Why and what for?  I can't show you that.  That is not what I'm saying.  You don't need that to control people.  This is what I'm saying:

That's not what you are saying. 

when you tell a person how to live to gain entrance into heaven or be cast down to hell is "control"  that's what religion's do.

When you tell a person there is no God and make your case you are not trying to control how they live.

That's pretty clear cut.

[loco]

That's not what you are saying. 

when you tell a person how to live to gain entrance into heaven or be cast down to hell is "control"  that's what religion's do.

When you tell a person there is no God and make your case you are not trying to control how they live.

That's pretty clear cut.

I'm glad you can tell me what I am and what I am not saying.   

And what are you saying?  That not a single atheist is interested in controlling other people?  That not a single atheist has tried to control other people?

[OzmO]

I'm glad you can tell me what I am and what I am not saying.   

And what are you saying?  That not a single atheist is interested in controlling other people?  That not a single atheist has tried to control other people?

com on loco,  think about it for a minute without trying too hard to defend anything religious and at the very least argue the points or when convenient stop lumping weak arguments into generalities to strengthen an already weak premise with rhetoric like:

That not a single atheist has tried to control other people?

Do athiests in general tell you how to live?  no.   they tell why they don;t believe in the existence of God.

All of Religion has at it's forefront, intended to tell people how to live.

[loco]

com on loco,  think about it for a minute without trying too hard to defend anything religious and at the very least argue the points or when convenient stop lumping weak arguments into generalities to strengthen an already weak premise with rhetoric like:


Do athiests in general tell you how to live?  no.   they tell why they don;t believe in the existence of God.

All of Religion has at it's forefront, intended to tell people how to live.

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[Butterbean]

when you tell a person how to live to gain entrance into heaven or be cast down to hell is "control"  that's what religion's do.

I agree that some religions do "tell a person how to live to gain entrance into heaven or be cast down to hell"  but Christianity is not one of them.

Christianity is about grace.  The bible teaches there is no way we can live our lives to be good enough to "gain entrance to heaven" as you say.  It says "We are saved by grace through faith and not of works so that no one can boast." EPH 2:8,9

Does the bible tell us how we should live?  Yes, in order to have a more fulfilling and more trouble-free life, but it does not say we have to live in a certain way to "gain entrance to heaven" because according to the bible that is impossible.



OzmO, it seems that you dislike "religion" and I agree.  But it also seems like you don't like the idea of God's Grace (Christianity).  What do you think the proper requirements would be to "gain entrance to heaven?"

[loco]

com on loco,  think about it for a minute without trying too hard to defend anything religious and at the very least argue the points or when convenient stop lumping weak arguments into generalities to strengthen an already weak premise with rhetoric like:


Do athiests in general tell you how to live?  no.   they tell why they don;t believe in the existence of God.

All of Religion has at it's forefront, intended to tell people how to live.

OzmO,
Who have persecuted, imprisoned, tortured and killed Christians in China, the former Soviet Union and Cuba?  Atheists.  What were these Christians guilty of?  Believing in God.

[Straw Man]

I agree that some religions do "tell a person how to live to gain entrance into heaven or be cast down to hell"  but Christianity is not one of them.

Christianity is about grace.  The bible teaches there is no way we can live our lives to be good enough to "gain entrance to heaven" as you say.  It says "We are saved by grace through faith and not of works so that no one can boast." EPH 2:8,9

Does the bible tell us how we should live?  Yes, in order to have a more fulfilling and more trouble-free life, but it does not say we have to live in a certain way to "gain entrance to heaven" because according to the bible that is impossible.



OzmO, it seems that you dislike "religion" and I agree.  But it also seems like you don't like the idea of God's Grace (Christianity).  What do you think the proper requirements would be to "gain entrance to heaven?"

Is not requiring one to believe in a Christian God telling someone how to live or rather more like an implicit threat?

The ONLY Choice - Believe in Christ/Christian God or Suffer eternal damnation

Actually, not only "believe" but agree that "you" are born into Sin and destined to eternal suffering  unless you affiliate with a specific Christian denomination and get "saved"?

btw - not trying to put words in your mouth but just trying to understand and express what my perception of what you are saying

btw2 - I find the whole "born into sin" / "original sin" concept to be fascinating.

The "innocent" fetus become a sinner by virtue of it's birth into this world - and then your most important job on earth is to locate the one and only correct religion and get saved.

[loco]

com on loco,  think about it for a minute without trying too hard to defend anything religious and at the very least argue the points or when convenient stop lumping weak arguments into generalities to strengthen an already weak premise with rhetoric like:


Do athiests in general tell you how to live?  no.   they tell why they don;t believe in the existence of God.

All of Religion has at it's forefront, intended to tell people how to live.

http://atheisme.free.fr/Atheism.htm

How to live without God, religion and beliefs

[Straw Man]

OzmO,
Who have persecuted, imprisoned, tortured and killed Christians in China, the former Soviet Union and Cuba?  Atheists.  What were these Christians guilty of?  Believing in God.

Communist countries cannot tolerate the citizens/captives believing in any power that's higher then "THE STATE"

It's really no more complicated than that