Author Topic: New Jersey to Become First State to Ban Death Penalty in 42 Years  (Read 6753 times)

rockyfortune

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Re: New Jersey to Become First State to Ban Death Penalty in 42 Years
« Reply #50 on: December 18, 2007, 04:54:22 AM »
jersey hadn't executed anyone in 44 years...timendequas would have been on death row forever...good for the state...they finally see the silliness of a death penalty that didn't work...it didn't discourage crime nor was it ever efficient in meeting out punishment..plus it made killers martyrs---lock them up, throw away the key and forget about them...you see how fast hollywood bigwigs leave town when someone gets life instead of death.
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Cap

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Re: New Jersey to Become First State to Ban Death Penalty in 42 Years
« Reply #51 on: December 18, 2007, 06:54:23 AM »
jersey hadn't executed anyone in 44 years...timendequas would have been on death row forever...good for the state...they finally see the silliness of a death penalty that didn't work...it didn't discourage crime nor was it ever efficient in meeting out punishment..plus it made killers martyrs---lock them up, throw away the key and forget about them...you see how fast hollywood bigwigs leave town when someone gets life instead of death.
Yeah, kind of hard to deter crime when they know they will likely not be executed what with all the years of appeals.  LIfe imprisonment deters crime more than death?  Murderers are kings in jail.  I'd rather see a man pissing himself about to die than living "on top" in jail, running his gang or crew inside.
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Re: New Jersey to Become First State to Ban Death Penalty in 42 Years
« Reply #52 on: December 18, 2007, 07:07:38 AM »
On more gear than Arnold at one time and could not even admit his guilt.  Seriously, for someone who was given a Nobel Prize and hailed as intelligent, this idiot couldn't even do the one thing to keep himself alive.  He tried to become a martyr but it's just another dead gang banger

I totally agree, this is a usual behaviour among CRIMINALS (no guys they are not humans, they are CRIMINALS), they rape, kill people, ruin people's life and when they have to face the strong hand of LAW, oh man, they quickly FIND THE WORD OF GOD, THE PEACE THAT WAS TAKEN BY AN ALCOHOLIC FATHER THAT USED TO BEAT & RAPE THEM WHEN THEY WERE KIDS, and all of that usual BULLSH1T which is a pussy way to say "I FEAR DEATH".

My country used to have death penalty too, until democracy arrived and now we see on tv EVERY FUCK1NG DAY victims of rape, robbery, and more, performed by people who has been jailed up to 3 times for the same crimes.

You guys dont want that in your country for sure, hence support death penalty, its the only cure for this CANCER.
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rockyfortune

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Re: New Jersey to Become First State to Ban Death Penalty in 42 Years
« Reply #53 on: December 18, 2007, 07:10:39 AM »
nope..life in jail doesn't deter crime...that wasn't my point..it's obvious punishment that is meted out is just that, punishment and not an opportunity for rehabilitation or deterrent to future would-be criminals.

Just because someone gets to spend life in prison doesn't mean he becomes a jail house don...

What's more of a punishment? being put on death row and made a celebrity for the anti-death penalty crusaders or getting thrown in jail, to live a tedious, structured, freedom-less existence for the next 50-60 years?  the death penalty is inherently an unfair punishment...who is to say that one murder outweighs another murder where one murderer gets the needle and another gets to spend his life in jail? why is killing a cop a sure ticket to the needle while killing a homeless man results in 30 years in prison?
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rockyfortune

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Re: New Jersey to Become First State to Ban Death Penalty in 42 Years
« Reply #54 on: December 18, 2007, 07:13:35 AM »
I totally agree, this is a usual behaviour among CRIMINALS (no guys they are not humans, they are CRIMINALS), they rape, kill people, ruin people's life and when they have to face the strong hand of LAW, oh man, they quickly FIND THE WORD OF GOD, THE PEACE THAT WAS TAKEN BY AN ALCOHOLIC FATHER THAT USED TO BEAT & RAPE THEM WHEN THEY WERE KIDS, and all of that usual BULLSH1T which is a pussy way to say "I FEAR DEATH".

My country used to have death penalty too, until democracy arrived and now we see on tv EVERY FUCK1NG DAY victims of rape, robbery, and more, performed by people who has been jailed up to 3 times for the same crimes.

You guys dont want that in your country for sure, hence support death penalty, its the only cure for this CANCER.


I'm not sure the death penalty is a cure for anything...it's be around for years and violent crime has risen...not dropped.
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Cap

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Re: New Jersey to Become First State to Ban Death Penalty in 42 Years
« Reply #55 on: December 18, 2007, 07:17:40 AM »
nope..life in jail doesn't deter crime...that wasn't my point..it's obvious punishment that is meted out is just that, punishment and not an opportunity for rehabilitation or deterrent to future would-be criminals.

Just because someone gets to spend life in prison doesn't mean he becomes a jail house don...

What's more of a punishment? being put on death row and made a celebrity for the anti-death penalty crusaders or getting thrown in jail, to live a tedious, structured, freedom-less existence for the next 50-60 years?  the death penalty is inherently an unfair punishment...who is to say that one murder outweighs another murder where one murderer gets the needle and another gets to spend his life in jail? why is killing a cop a sure ticket to the needle while killing a homeless man results in 30 years in prison?
What murderers are celebrities except for guys like Peterson.  I bet you couldn't name 10 or even 5 off the top of your head.  Death penalty is fair, especially with DNA.  They should all die if they murder.  I guarantee that if people stuck by DNA evidence, we had less years of appeals, mandatory execution and ACTUALLY used the system with all this BS then it would deter crime.  Criminals laugh at the system.  They know they have 3 strikes and can escape their death sentence because of liberal idiots who feel bad for them.  You can't deter people with a system you do not use. 
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rockyfortune

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Re: New Jersey to Become First State to Ban Death Penalty in 42 Years
« Reply #56 on: December 18, 2007, 07:26:33 AM »
tookie became one..mumia is still one...peterson...ira einhorn became one in france when he was captured and faced a death sentence in pennsylvania...which forced pennsyvania to promise france that he would not face death if france extradited him back to the US....if any of these guys had been given life---what does DNA have to do with the fairness of the death penalty---
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JBGRAY

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Re: New Jersey to Become First State to Ban Death Penalty in 42 Years
« Reply #57 on: December 18, 2007, 07:30:52 AM »
Hardly.  Most prisons, if not all, have aggressive programs to stamp out gang behavior inside via transfer programs, confinement, identification, and rehabilitation.  It isn't like OZ, Prison Break, or some other glorified prison movie.  Where I worked, I've seen Mexican Mafia, Crips, Bloods, the Haitian Zoe Pounds, Aryan Brotherhood(not a true gang in these parts, as the numbers of whites are rather small and they naturally form together), and a lot of others.  They mainly hung out with one another for the company, with perhaps some small-time planning for the Outside.  Very rarely, and never from when I've been there, have their been "contracted" hits or planned riots.  Snitches are usually targeted before anything, and everyone from all sides would be out to get them.  I've had to do a lot of transports to move "snitches" to a different facility or put in protective management.  The term Human Warehousing is on the money.  We placed inmates categoriacally whether it be sex, possible gang affiliation, location to closest family, custody level, etc....  

You need to realize our current prison system is broken.  We have over 2.2 million people in jails/prisons.  That is Human Warehousing for profit.  Private companies, the big ones being Wackenhut and CCA, are getting big business from building prisons and receiving government contracts to run them.  In the past, counties and towns would normally shun the building of a new correctional institution as there was the thought that it would be a blight on the area.  Now, they clamor for them to be built.  Contracts, staff, and inmate families end up moving close-by and ultimately spend more money in that area.  Small, petty offenses, such as possession of marijuana, DUI/DWI, civil infractions, Tax offenses, etc...are enough to put someone in jail.  There are too many people in jail/prison for non-violent offenses, and that is unacceptable.  In addition, it is almost impossible to obtain a job after serving one's time due to their record, and people wonder why recidivism rates are so high.  

I like to think of the solution, not the problem.  For non-violent offenses, there needs to be a different and creative punishment catered to the individual.  It is unfair and absolutely stupid to convict, say, a millionaire and a minimum-wager to the same sentence if both committed something like tax fraud.  Something unique needs to be constructed for both.  In this case, the judge should force a recompensation program in addition with classes and/or community service.  The EOE that employers go by should be spread to those with criminal records, particularily to those with non-violent ones.  For those with drug-related charges such as simple possession should instead go into a rehabilitation program.  However, I do concede that the criminal justice system is not the end all of itself, as there are societal and cultural problems that lie at the core, but I think a reformation of the system would be a step in the right direction.


loco

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Re: New Jersey to Become First State to Ban Death Penalty in 42 Years
« Reply #58 on: December 18, 2007, 08:07:26 AM »

Quote
But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

Luke 19:27, Jesus speaking...boy was a Jesus a moody character...so much for forgiveness. ::)

That's not Jesus speaking, but a king in a story that Jesus was telling.  Read the whole thing and stop posting verses out of context and twisting the message.

For an atheist, you sure spend a lot of time and energy whining and complaining about someone who allegedly doesn't exist.   ;D

Cap

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Re: New Jersey to Become First State to Ban Death Penalty in 42 Years
« Reply #59 on: December 18, 2007, 08:14:13 AM »
Hardly.  Most prisons, if not all, have aggressive programs to stamp out gang behavior inside via transfer programs, confinement, identification, and rehabilitation.  It isn't like OZ, Prison Break, or some other glorified prison movie.  Where I worked, I've seen Mexican Mafia, Crips, Bloods, the Haitian Zoe Pounds, Aryan Brotherhood(not a true gang in these parts, as the numbers of whites are rather small and they naturally form together), and a lot of others.  They mainly hung out with one another for the company, with perhaps some small-time planning for the Outside.  Very rarely, and never from when I've been there, have their been "contracted" hits or planned riots.  Snitches are usually targeted before anything, and everyone from all sides would be out to get them.  I've had to do a lot of transports to move "snitches" to a different facility or put in protective management.  The term Human Warehousing is on the money.  We placed inmates categoriacally whether it be sex, possible gang affiliation, location to closest family, custody level, etc.... 

You need to realize our current prison system is broken.  We have over 2.2 million people in jails/prisons.  That is Human Warehousing for profit.  Private companies, the big ones being Wackenhut and CCA, are getting big business from building prisons and receiving government contracts to run them.  In the past, counties and towns would normally shun the building of a new correctional institution as there was the thought that it would be a blight on the area.  Now, they clamor for them to be built.  Contracts, staff, and inmate families end up moving close-by and ultimately spend more money in that area.  Small, petty offenses, such as possession of marijuana, DUI/DWI, civil infractions, Tax offenses, etc...are enough to put someone in jail.  There are too many people in jail/prison for non-violent offenses, and that is unacceptable.  In addition, it is almost impossible to obtain a job after serving one's time due to their record, and people wonder why recidivism rates are so high. 

I like to think of the solution, not the problem.  For non-violent offenses, there needs to be a different and creative punishment catered to the individual.  It is unfair and absolutely stupid to convict, say, a millionaire and a minimum-wager to the same sentence if both committed something like tax fraud.  Something unique needs to be constructed for both.  In this case, the judge should force a recompensation program in addition with classes and/or community service.  The EOE that employers go by should be spread to those with criminal records, particularily to those with non-violent ones.  For those with drug-related charges such as simple possession should instead go into a rehabilitation program.  However, I do concede that the criminal justice system is not the end all of itself, as there are societal and cultural problems that lie at the core, but I think a reformation of the system would be a step in the right direction.


There are some good ideas here but the costs would also be high to enact a new system like this.  It takes money and qualified people to run this.  As far as drug charges, even DUI cases get some time in jail.  Let the pot heads stew a for a month in jail before rehab.  Other drug possessions need jail time. If you have coke, meth, heroin, etc you need to be locked up for awhile before you get any treatment.  You're also assuming that forced treatment works.  AA and NA work because they are voluntary.  Look at stars who are forced into rehab; they bounce back time and time again.

As far as teh death penalty, nobody outside of the black community gives a shit about Tookie and the other cases like Peterson are a big deal because they involve pregnant mothers and the media makes them big deals, otherwise people wouldn't care.  DNA makes any form of punishment as fair as humanly possible because it is based on science.  If punishing with death based on DNA is not fair then how are people happy with it in other cases?  Jag rants about how DNA is misused to convict but can't tell me how it is infallible when exonerating people.  Can anyone explain this?  I doubt they can.  As DNA advances and the "old" cases move out of the system, what is the problem with DNA proving guilt? 
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rockyfortune

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Re: New Jersey to Become First State to Ban Death Penalty in 42 Years
« Reply #60 on: December 18, 2007, 09:51:56 AM »
There are some good ideas here but the costs would also be high to enact a new system like this.  It takes money and qualified people to run this.  As far as drug charges, even DUI cases get some time in jail.  Let the pot heads stew a for a month in jail before rehab.  Other drug possessions need jail time. If you have coke, meth, heroin, etc you need to be locked up for awhile before you get any treatment.  You're also assuming that forced treatment works.  AA and NA work because they are voluntary.  Look at stars who are forced into rehab; they bounce back time and time again.

As far as teh death penalty, nobody outside of the black community gives a shit about Tookie and the other cases like Peterson are a big deal because they involve pregnant mothers and the media makes them big deals, otherwise people wouldn't care.  DNA makes any form of punishment as fair as humanly possible because it is based on science.  If punishing with death based on DNA is not fair then how are people happy with it in other cases?  Jag rants about how DNA is misused to convict but can't tell me how it is infallible when exonerating people.  Can anyone explain this?  I doubt they can.  As DNA advances and the "old" cases move out of the system, what is the problem with DNA proving guilt? 



the problem is that you don't always have dna of the perpetrator at the crime scene?  and if hte black community consisted of hollywood types like ed asner, mike farrell and cnn camera crews then i guess you are right--You forgot Mumia-Abu Jamal..who has had streets named after him in France..and has the same hollywood types defending him--
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Cap

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Re: New Jersey to Become First State to Ban Death Penalty in 42 Years
« Reply #61 on: December 18, 2007, 11:22:33 AM »


the problem is that you don't always have dna of the perpetrator at the crime scene?  and if hte black community consisted of hollywood types like ed asner, mike farrell and cnn camera crews then i guess you are right--You forgot Mumia-Abu Jamal..who has had streets named after him in France..and has the same hollywood types defending him--
True but many of these overturned cases come from DNA evidence from a time when we didn't have the tests.  In cases without DNA, there are other ways to prove guilt but Jag and others claim that it's all race and power bias so we should not try and fix any problems and just scrap the system, which is wrong.

As for the gentleman you named, I have heard nothing major here but I assure you that Tookie does not have the same reputation here among the general populace.
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24KT

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Re: New Jersey to Become First State to Ban Death Penalty in 42 Years
« Reply #62 on: December 18, 2007, 11:48:35 AM »
True but many of these overturned cases come from DNA evidence from a time when we didn't have the tests.  In cases without DNA, there are other ways to prove guilt but Jag and others claim that it's all race and power bias so we should not try and fix any problems and just scrap the system, which is wrong.

As for the gentleman you named, I have heard nothing major here but I assure you that Tookie does not have the same reputation here among the general populace.

Cap, please don't try to express my position in matters because it is clear to me you do not understand them.
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Cap

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Re: New Jersey to Become First State to Ban Death Penalty in 42 Years
« Reply #63 on: December 18, 2007, 12:04:49 PM »
Cap, please don't try to express my position in matters because it is clear to me you do not understand them.
You said early on in this debate that you felt DNA was flawed in convicting people and that power corruption was a problem as well but that DNA testing was exonerating more and more people.  Aside from insults what else did/do you have to say? 
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OzmO

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Re: New Jersey to Become First State to Ban Death Penalty in 42 Years
« Reply #64 on: December 18, 2007, 12:08:40 PM »
If it's overwhelming evidence i say kill em if it's Murder 1.

If it's not overwhelming evidence, i say life in prison.

And let's stop spinning crap.  DNA is not 100%  But 99% is good enough for me if there is other strong evidence of guilt. 

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Re: New Jersey to Become First State to Ban Death Penalty in 42 Years
« Reply #65 on: December 18, 2007, 12:12:13 PM »
You said early on in this debate that you felt DNA was flawed in convicting people and that power corruption was a problem as well but that DNA testing was exonerating more and more people.  Aside from insults what else did/do you have to say? 

What I said was that it was possible to frame someone by using samples of their DNA.
Getting someone's DNA isn't difficult, we leave traces of it everywhere we go.

In addition, there are some forensic labs that are cesspools of contamination.

So-called "evidence" is only as good as the person collecting it, the lab and technicians processing it, and the integrity maintained throughout the entire process.

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Re: New Jersey to Become First State to Ban Death Penalty in 42 Years
« Reply #66 on: December 18, 2007, 12:30:18 PM »
Luke 19:27, Jesus speaking...boy was a Jesus a moody character...so much for forgiveness. ::)


That's not Jesus speaking, but a king in a story that Jesus was telling.  Read the whole thing and stop posting verses out of context and twisting the message.

For an atheist, you sure spend a lot of time and energy whining and complaining about someone who allegedly doesn't exist.   ;D

lol.  Ding!  True.   :)

Cap

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Re: New Jersey to Become First State to Ban Death Penalty in 42 Years
« Reply #67 on: December 18, 2007, 12:34:44 PM »
What I said was that it was possible to frame someone by using samples of their DNA.
Getting someone's DNA isn't difficult, we leave traces of it everywhere we go.

In addition, there are some forensic labs that are cesspools of contamination.

So-called "evidence" is only as good as the person collecting it, the lab and technicians processing it, and the integrity maintained throughout the entire process.


So....corruption. Yep, I covered that.

Humans are inherently fallible.  If you have a problem with people being framed then perhaps we should not have any punishment.  I could collect a sample of your DNA (hair possibly), go rob a bank with a mask, leave the DNA evidence where it could easily be found and frame you.  That's only robbery.

I could also take have unprotected sex with you, take GHB and claim I was raped.  Drugs in my system and your DNA.  That's only rape.

Where does it end?  IF this is such a problem then how can we ever prosecute?

Ozmo has a good idea but DNA can prove guilt, especially with its progression over the years.  We claim this is a problem with the US system but is DNA collection any better in Europe, Canada, Asia?
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Dos Equis

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Re: New Jersey to Become First State to Ban Death Penalty in 42 Years
« Reply #68 on: December 18, 2007, 12:36:30 PM »
If it's overwhelming evidence i say kill em if it's Murder 1.

If it's not overwhelming evidence, i say life in prison.

And let's stop spinning crap.  DNA is not 100%  But 99% is good enough for me if there is other strong evidence of guilt. 

I'd say "overwhelming evidence" is pretty much the standard.  I don't see any difference between that and "beyond a reasonable doubt." 

OzmO

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Re: New Jersey to Become First State to Ban Death Penalty in 42 Years
« Reply #69 on: December 18, 2007, 12:55:47 PM »
I'd say "overwhelming evidence" is pretty much the standard.  I don't see any difference between that and "beyond a reasonable doubt." 

I think sometimes there is, otherwise we wouldn't see some death row guys found innocent.  So it really depends on what "Beyond reasonable Doubt" means.



Dos Equis

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Re: New Jersey to Become First State to Ban Death Penalty in 42 Years
« Reply #70 on: December 18, 2007, 01:02:46 PM »
I think sometimes there is, otherwise we wouldn't see some death row guys found innocent.  So it really depends on what "Beyond reasonable Doubt" means.


I think it essentially means no doubt.  This may sound circular, but if you have a doubt that's unreasonable, then you really have no doubt. 

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Re: New Jersey to Become First State to Ban Death Penalty in 42 Years
« Reply #71 on: December 18, 2007, 01:23:13 PM »
I think it essentially means no doubt.  This may sound circular, but if you have a doubt that's unreasonable, then you really have no doubt. 

yeah that does sound weird.

Point being however, some people are on death row who have been convicted and sent there on lesser evidence than should be.  That's my point.  We should make those guys lifers.  But the guy that killed someone and was caught immediately at the scene with weapon in hand and DNA matched and witnesses confirmed who saw the whole things, well that seems pretty certain.

Dos Equis

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Re: New Jersey to Become First State to Ban Death Penalty in 42 Years
« Reply #72 on: December 18, 2007, 01:32:36 PM »
yeah that does sound weird.

Point being however, some people are on death row who have been convicted and sent there on lesser evidence than should be.  That's my point.  We should make those guys lifers.  But the guy that killed someone and was caught immediately at the scene with weapon in hand and DNA matched and witnesses confirmed who saw the whole things, well that seems pretty certain.

I don't think any innocent person should spend a day in prison.  If there is enough evidence to convict a person of first degree murder, then there should be enough evidence to execute them.   

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Re: New Jersey to Become First State to Ban Death Penalty in 42 Years
« Reply #73 on: December 18, 2007, 01:36:29 PM »
So....corruption. Yep, I covered that.

Humans are inherently fallible.  If you have a problem with people being framed then perhaps we should not have any punishment.  I could collect a sample of your DNA (hair possibly), go rob a bank with a mask, leave the DNA evidence where it could easily be found and frame you.  That's only robbery.

I could also take have unprotected sex with you, take GHB and claim I was raped.  Drugs in my system and your DNA.  That's only rape.

Holy Cow, ...now I see how stupid our hypothetical scenarios can become when we make them up on the fly? {lol}

Quote
Where does it end?  IF this is such a problem then how can we ever prosecute?

Ozmo has a good idea but DNA can prove guilt, especially with its progression over the years.  We claim this is a problem with the US system but is DNA collection any better in Europe, Canada, Asia?

No one is saying DNA evidence is exclusively a problem in the US, however, Canada does not have the death penalty.

When you actually know someone who was wrongfully convicted of multiple homicide, received a death sentence, was eventually exonerated, and whose life was only saved due to an end to the death penalty, you have a different perspective on the death penalty

To me, state sanctioned murder has no place in a civilized society.
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Re: New Jersey to Become First State to Ban Death Penalty in 42 Years
« Reply #74 on: December 18, 2007, 01:39:21 PM »
I don't think any innocent person should spend a day in prison.  If there is enough evidence to convict a person of first degree murder, then there should be enough evidence to execute them.   

In a perfect world yes, but it's not.  And we've seen convictions overturned because other evidence has come to light and tragically some of these people were innocent and were executed.   

that's why, the Death penalty should abolished AND kept.  Abolished for the ones without overwhelming evidence and Kept for the ones with.

What you just said there is good in principle but not working in practice.