German Vol. Training’s effectiveness?

[pumpster]

I ve trialed this method with one exercise in my chest and back routine - dips!

Now i know its effectiveness may be affected by the what the rest of my workout consisted of, ie, 5 x 5 and moderate hypertrophy, but to be honest i havent seen a single gain.

You get a fantastic pump no doubt and it lingers too, but in terms of muscle gains i have yet to experience it.

Like i said its effects may be diminished as i'm not truly following gvt.

any thoughts?

-How long were you doing it? Need enough time to be sure of effectiveness; a few weeks really isn't much.
-Were you able to progress in terms of weight and/or reps? Like any program this is pretty fundamental to improvement.
-How many reps/set? Try 8 x 8, 7 x7 or 6x6; personally i think 10 x 10's not optimal.
-Adjust rest time between sets, max. 1 minute or use less and compare the effect.
-Try another exercise for the same muscle, a go-to fave. Be willing to slowly try a few over a period of time based on effectiveness.
-If you don't have a clear-cut nitrogen balance in the diet that will facilitate bodyweight gains it's hard to do much more than cut up for the most part.
-Try it on something else like bis or tris.

[jpm101]

 GVT depends on it being followed the way it was originally designed. Trouble being, a few people do not understand or confused this with what GVT is not. You want 10 reps on every rep of every set. Not 8 &9 or 11 & 12. The goal is 100 rep's when done with the workout, nothing else. Use the same weight throughout this method. You do not add weight or lessen weight even if you think you should. Too much unneeded tweaking has ruined many productive BB'ing systems. Can start with 50%, 60% or what ever you body can handle based on a 1 rep max. The first couple of sets may seem too easy. No matter, press on with the same weight on the bar.

This form of training works best with the heavier compound exercises. For a lot of people, this style program is just too intense for direct arm work (curls & triceps) or other extension movements like lateral. But if that works for you, than great. But for most it will not be the best workout plan. GVT is not like 8X8, 5X5's and any of the other (which I like to call) square root workouts. Give any new training program a good 2 weeks to work into and than stay on it for another 4 to 6 week. You want to seem what the full potential can be for you so give it a fair chance.

Rest period can very but try keeping in the 90 second to 2 minute range for most exercises. For DL's , squats, cleans, C&J's, etc you may require at least 3 minutes between sets. That is being realistic. After awhile you should gain a certain level of stamina and require less time between the heavier compound exercises.

With GVT you do only one exercise per muscle group on that workout day. Though some will SS the chest (BP) with back (BB Rows) on a given training day (Arnold & Columbo come to mind). Also squats with leg curls as another example.You should not do any other form of lifting with GVT. Those one or two exercises (SS'ed) are the only ones done on that training day. Usually GVT is followed twice a week. But if once a week suits you, than so be it.

You joints are somewhat spared and you muscles should take the blunt of the training work load. Also the motor impulse units are greatly involved. One of the reasons that most will become so much stronger at the end of a GVT cycle (6-8 weeks). Olympic lifters had used this system in off season training. Some for the purpose of increasing the muscle bwt to a higher lifting weight class.

I cycle GVT during the year. Usually use dips, BB Hack squats, SldL's, Hi-pulls, etc as my compound movements. My best gains, by far, have been from using the bent arm pullover and press (DB's for me). Exceptional upper body training, at least for me. Cleans or Hi-pull are also right up there for me. Good Luck.

[Cap]

I am following strating today with the only difference being some direct arm work.  10x10 for biceps and a few exercises for triceps but that might change.  Everything else is one movement.  We'll see how this goes.

[Narkissos]

I usually use a lot of volume and frequency.. but even so, when i switched to GVT i continued to progress.

For legs i did 10 sets of squats (+ axillary work: 5 sets leg curls; 5 sets calf-raises)
For Back i did 10 sets of Barbell bent over rows ( + axillary work: 5 sets chins; 2-5 sets curls)
For Delts i did 10 sets of barbell upright rows (+ axillary work: 5 sets presses; 2-5 sets dumbbell french press...for triceps)

Ab + chest.. I trained w/ low volume.

Because in my 10 years training I found that my chest doesn't respond to higher volume.

And my abs get fried from compound movements...so additional work isn't necessary per se.

-CNS

[Cap]

Fucking brutal on chest and biceps.  I know it doesn't call for arm work but fuck if that didn't suck.  The chest and tricep pump from incline bench shows why they might not recommend direct arm work.  We'll see what happens.

[dantelis]

Serge Nubret used a variation of this in his training, with 5-10 sets of around 12-15 reps with 60 seconds rest between sets.  I've been trying that for the last two weeks or so and I can tell you that the pumps are incredible.  I worked arms on Monday, with just five sets each of seated dumbbell curls and hammer curls supersetted with bench dips and pushdowns and had a great arm pump by the end of the workout.  My arms, especially my biceps, are still sore today, three days later.  I can't imagine the pump and soreness after 10 sets of one exercise.

FYI, Serge claimed that he never had problems with injuries, due to his strict form and lighter weight, higher reps/sets.  I suggest you give them a try for a few weeks and see what happens.

[pumpster]

Don't worry about rules, try different rep ranges, different exercises isolation included and try it on each muscle. Each might respond better to different variations of the theme. I think 10 x 10 is a little extreme, nothing wrong with going with anywhere from 6 x 6 to 8 x 8 instead.

[Montague]

I guess since I’m the one who started this thread a little over two months ago, a little feedback from me would be apropos.
One of you even pm'ed me about my progress a couple of weeks back.

I’ve been training GVT style for about seven weeks now and am very happy with the results.
I’ve noticed consistent gains in strength literally each and every week.
Every workout I increase either reps and/or weight, though I haven’t decreased the rest periods to lower than one minute.

This style is more forgiving on my elbows, which are still inflamed a bit and bother me to a degree. I have good and bad days with that.

A typical week looks like this:

Sa – Chest & Tri’s: 10x8 Incline db presses, 4x10 db flyes, 5x10 tricep cable extensions (Larry Scott style)

Su – Off

Mo – Back & Bi’s: 10x6 bent over rows, 5x8 bb preacher curls, 4x8 hyperextensions

Tu – Shoulders & Traps: 10x10 military presses, 3x8 db lateral raises, 4x10 bb shrugs

We – Off

Th – Legs: For legs I break away from the 10 sets of 10 protocol in favor of walking lunges with a bb, as these are still my favorite leg/glute exercise. Don’t ask me how many reps I get per leg per set. All I can tell you is that it’s one trip the entire length of the cardio classroom. I typically follow lunges with glute/ham raises (reverse hamstring curls), curls, extensions, and high rep calf work.

Fr – Off

Workouts are much shorter than I’m accustomed to, and thus it is easier to maintain good intensity for the entire session.

When I begin dieting and cardio around the end of March I intend to incorporate interval training as part of my aerobic work – probably the Tabata principles as recommended to me by the always informative jpm101.

[pumpster]

Every workout I increase either reps and/or weight, though I haven’t decreased the rest periods to lower than one minute.

This style is more forgiving on my elbows, which are still inflamed a bit and bother me to a degree. I have good and bad days with that.

Just try to continue increasing sets or reps if that's working; it wouldn't even make sense to decrease rests times while doing that, you would want to change one of those variables, not all of them.

Ya, it's generally gonna decrease injuries or make existing ones more managable.

[Cap]

The lighter weight on everything can mess with you a little bit but by the time you finish your muscles are dying.  I especially like the fact that it takes it easy on your joints.  You get repetition in that area which may cause overuse eventually but if you cycle this correctly I think that can be avoided.

So far I have done every BP once under this style and my muscles hurt like hell.

[jpm101]

Actually with the true GVT system you do not want to increase reps each workout. The reps stay the same (Ten reps for Ten sets=100 reps) which is the whole purpose of this training. Weight increases will and should go up every workout. The goal is to up the total tonage lifted with in those 100 reps max This also is not a pumping system where much lighter weight is used, so the 60 seconds between sets is not an ideal choice if the full potential of GVT is to be gained. 90 to 120 seconds usually. 3 minutes maybe for the Big Boy exercises like squats, DL', cleans, etc.With this you should become so much more stronger at the end of a 6 to 8 week GVT cycle.  With a solid and lasting muscle gain, not inflated muscle tissue that a pure pumping system, with lighter weights, may offer for most men.

If any one else wants to adapt increases reps or add extra exercises to a workout than fine for them. And if they are making good progress, than fine again. But if a pure GVT system is followed than progress may be even that much better and quicker for a lot of trainee's. Good Luck.

[pumpster]

Actually with the true GVT system you do not want to increase reps each workout. The reps stay the same (Ten reps for Ten sets=100 reps) which is the whole purpose of this training.

Incorrect. In order to consistely progress by adding weight, it's obvious that there will always be points in which the toal 10 x 10 can't be done. This is quite fundamental actually, glaringly so.

Anyone who really understands the system and it's origins realizes that there are various ways to work it. Pretty simple stuff.

[jpm101]

Actually the GVT system is pretty simple to understand and does not require a lot of intellect. Though some may fine the idea very hard to grasp. People with a lack of hardcore gym experience seem to fall into this group. A newbee mistake, which can be pardoned, yes. But much older trainee's should know better.

It is 10 reps a set which may require a bit of mental calculation. Again, people with real gym experience will understand that very quickly. That is why adding weight, of any amount, the next workout is a matter of judgment. But no matter what, the 10 reps a set is consent. If that 10 rep set is coming up short because too much weight had been applied on the bar than, by experience, the trainee will know how to adjust the next workout. As a general rule of thumb, you should feel that you could go over the 10 rep limit at the start of a workout, but do not. Best to have the ability to go over than to go under those ten reps at the start of the workout. Something that one may do (though try not to make a habit of it) is to reduce the weight if not able to make those 10 reps.

Really basic and simple stuff that only require a little thinking on the trainee's part. Good luck.

[sculpture]

-How long were you doing it? Need enough time to be sure of effectiveness; a few weeks really isn't much.
-Were you able to progress in terms of weight and/or reps? Like any program this is pretty fundamental to improvement.
-How many reps/set? Try 8 x 8, 7 x7 or 6x6; personally i think 10 x 10's not optimal.
-Adjust rest time between sets, max. 1 minute or use less and compare the effect.
-Try another exercise for the same muscle, a go-to fave. Be willing to slowly try a few over a period of time based on effectiveness.
-If you don't have a clear-cut nitrogen balance in the diet that will facilitate bodyweight gains it's hard to do much more than cut up for the most part.
-Try it on something else like bis or tris.

Sorry ive taken so long to reply - completely forgot i posted on this thread.

Ive been applying the methodology for around 4 mths now exclusively on dips using a 10 x 10 rep set combo, 1 minute rest, whilst keeping the rest of my workout the same as b4, ie 5 x5 on bench and standard hypertrophy albeit slightly higher reps (12-20) for pullovers.

The pump is mindblowing but ive yet to see any solid, rewarding growth or gain in reps/weight.

Actually with the true GVT system you do not want to increase reps each workout. The reps stay the same (Ten reps for Ten sets=100 reps) which is the whole purpose of this training. Weight increases will and should go up every workout. The goal is to up the total tonage lifted with in those 100 reps max This also is not a pumping system where much lighter weight is used, so the 60 seconds between sets is not an ideal choice if the full potential of GVT is to be gained. 90 to 120 seconds usually. 3 minutes maybe for the Big Boy exercises like squats, DL', cleans, etc.With this you should become so much more stronger at the end of a 6 to 8 week GVT cycle.  With a solid and lasting muscle gain, not inflated muscle tissue that a pure pumping system, with lighter weights, may offer for most men.

If any one else wants to adapt increases reps or add extra exercises to a workout than fine for them. And if they are making good progress, than fine again. But if a pure GVT system is followed than progress may be even that much better and quicker for a lot of trainee's. Good Luck.

The methodology you prescribe, ie, longer rest periods, would seem to suit a lower rep range than te. Correct?

My main beef with gvt is that it seems very time consuming.

What would be more effective - 3 sets bench, 3 sets dip and 3 sets pullover all in 10 rep range or just a straight 10x10 for a single compound exercise?

[jpm101]

Actually the opposite would be true with regards to GVT. Staying on the same exercise, in the same spot with usually the hands on or near the weight to be lifted (like lying on a bench/incline, standing over a bar for BB rows, standing under or by a squat rack, etc.), for the complete 10X10's should go quite fast. It is effective time management. With that style of workout a stopwatch (or large wall clock) would be needed. No time wasted. But you will have to be the judge of that with a fair workout try with GVT.

Thing is, this form of working out requires mental focus and a sense of will. GVT is just another good workout schemes. It is not the only way to train but does offer an opportunity to explore one or more different result producing programs. Not any one method is suited for everyone. Good Luck.

[jpm101]

Just grabbed a 18 year old freshman who had the bad luck of walking past the staff room window. He was going to do some benches anyway (he's had some lifting experience) so I had him do 10X10's for roughly 90 second rest between sets. He used  the basic 135 on the bar. Took 20 minutes and 53 seconds for the full workout, by my stopwatch. If doing a regular chest workout, that would be the only exercise he would do for that day. If he was a little more advanced than he might do the BP SS'ed with BB rows or lat machine pulldowns. Time wise, this can be a very effective program. In my view anyway. Good Luck.

[Montague]

The lighter weight on everything can mess with you a little bit but by the time you finish your muscles are dying.

For many folks, that’s probably the biggest mental barrier to overcome – using much less weight than you know you can with longer rests and fewer sets.

Even if your ego doesn’t get in the way, your brain really questions the effectiveness of those first 3 or so sets.
But rest assured that by sets 7&8 there will be no question that you’re working hard.
You’ll struggle with 9, and 10 should be damn near impossible to complete...
Provided you're doing it right.

[Geo]

Just grabbed a 18 year old freshman who had the bad luck of walking past the staff room window

too funny.

[jpm101]

Montague gives great insight into GVT training. It can be an ego thing.  Most guy's in a gym do not want to give the perception of being pussy and using what might seem to be baby weights. And after all, BB'ing is pure perception for most. In a lot of  gym's the best benchers may not be the best developed in the chest, delts and triceps department. Strong yes, superior development..no, not always.

As Montague name suggest, success is usually a mix of this and that during any BB'ing year. Certainly GVT is not the only way, but can be a very helpful tool for BB'ing gains for short training periods (6-8 weeks). Some divide a training year into 3 month sections rather than a shorter period (6-8 weeks). If that works for you, than more power to you.

 Cycling  heavy rack training (partials, lockouts,etc.), GVT and moderate to heavy brief BB'ing workouts as the last phase of a training year has worked well for me. Any rep scheme from 3 to 20+ reps are used except when doing GVT (10X10). 3 reps will do for you what 20 will not and vice versa. Experiment for what works best for you and not the other guy. Good Luck.

[davie]

Montague i tried this, and found that like you said the pump was immense, and arms etc would obviously seem to grow during workout due to blood increase in the area....the day after my arms seemed smaller than they were in the brginning, and i feel im shrinking like im over training.

I was doing:

Monday
chest/back
bench 10x10 ss rows 10/10
flys3x10 ss pulldowns 3x10

Wednesday
Legs
squats 10x10
unilateral squats 3x10

Friday
SHoulders arms
Db press 10x10
laterals 3x10

overhead extensions 10x10
bi curls 10x10

Davie

[Montague]

How long have you been doing the routine?

[jpm101]

The day after such a workout your arms, and the rest of the body, are adjusting to the increased work load. Allow your CNS to work into such a higher volume program at first. After a week or so, you should advance quite well. Some lifter's have worked themselves into higher weight classes, being more muscular and stronger than before, with GVT style training. Just like guy's in the 60's & 70's, when trying the 20+ per muscle group programs though they were going to die the first week or so. After a short period they adjusted to the extreme overload. Even Gironda 8X8 (64 reps...GVT 100 reps) took a little time to work into.

Dave's program would not need the flys SS'ed with pulldowns, unilaterals or lateral raises.. not needed. Doing the 10X10's for bicep/triceps is overkill.Adding more to recovery time for his concern of arm shrinkage. No wonder the arms got smaller. This training method is designed, and works best, for compound movements. If you must, than add a 2 or 3 sets of biceps, on Monday, at the end of the workout. Triceps on Friday.  This should end the insecurities about those arms not getting enough attention.

Most guy's, with experience, will do GVT with something like BB rows on Monday. Squats on Wednsday and dips on Friday. Some will SS back with Chest on Monday. Leg & hams on Thursday. Lot's of serious compound exercises to select from.   Remember K.I.S.S..      Good Luck.

[dantelis]

Montague i tried this, and found that like you said the pump was immense, and arms etc would obviously seem to grow during workout due to blood increase in the area....the day after my arms seemed smaller than they were in the brginning, and i feel im shrinking like im over training.

I was doing:

Monday
chest/back
bench 10x10 ss rows 10/10
flys3x10 ss pulldowns 3x10

Wednesday
Legs
squats 10x10
unilateral squats 3x10

Friday
SHoulders arms
Db press 10x10
laterals 3x10

overhead extensions 10x10
bi curls 10x10

Davie

What is your nationality?  German Volume Training only works for Germans.   

[FREAKgeek]

What is your nationality?  German Volume Training only works for Germans.   

It won't make you more German. All genetics.

[jpm101]

World War I and World War II didn't work for the Germans. But GVT works for everyone, including Germans. Works well for me being born about 117'42W & 14'14S. Dave's in Scotland, should work for him. Good Luck.