Author Topic: MCWAY gets totally thrashed and owned by Kokobridge's resident religious expert,  (Read 5592 times)

Deicide

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Ishtar... ;D This is just one example of the owning MCWAT has received by my colleagues; he is the only one that cannot see it. Good Stuff!

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You’re misunderstanding and ignorance is so vast, MCWAY, and you're so conditioned by your Christian teachers, that I barely know where to begin with you. On top of that, I wonder why I should even expend the effort when your mind is closed to all enquiry.

So I am merely continuing this for the benefit of any other possible readers who may genuinely want answers to these questions.


Quote from: MCWAY link=topic=2166.msg24624#msg24624
Then, please display some of the conspiracy theories on how the Buddhists made up Buddha, or how followers of Krishna forged certain documents.


All religions revise their scriptures over time, as have the Jews and the Christians. Only the Christians say their Bible is the Word of God. Why do that do that, MCWAY?


Quote from: MCWAY link=topic=2166.msg24624#msg24624
There was no monotheism for certain periods, because (as well-documented in the Old Testament) Israel REPEATEDLY slipped into idolatry. They worshipped, Baal, Asheroth, Molech, just to name a few. And, that got them in more trouble. In fact, the Old Testament states that, at one point, Israel's wickedness exceeded that of its neighbors.


Oh dear. The paucity of your scholarship would be laughable if it wasn’t so sad. Your sole source for history comes from your Christian teachers who don’t understand anything that happened in the world before Judaeo-Christianity, and even in that their thinking is tainted a belief that the Bible is a true account of the history of the Jewish people.

MCWAY, they didn’t slip into ‘idolatory’ (as you call it).  Practically the whole world had always been polytheistic. This was a natural development from the earlier shamanic culture.

The Hebrews were polytheistic Canaanites who even further back that had, long ago, migrated to Canaan from Sumeria/Akkad/Babylonia. In fact, they had originated from Babylon. (You might want to chew over that irony!)

So polytheism was in their blood, in their genes and thus in their culture. It was essentially who they were. The much later Yahwist cult (possibly led by the Aaronite priests) tried to change all that by imposing monotheism and the centralisation of worship on to their people, in order to gain political control.  They did this largely by interpolating their dogma into the oldest Biblical texts (by E) that still refer to God as El Shadday, the Canaanite god of the mountains.


Quote from: MCWAY link=topic=2166.msg24624#msg24624
AHHH!!! The old JEDP theory. It's been a while, since I heard that one.

And your point is?


Quote from: MCWAY link=topic=2166.msg24624#msg24624
As for the New Testament, its existence started while Israel was still under Roman rule, long before many of these political administrations came to be.

And so your point is?


Quote from: MCWAY link=topic=2166.msg24624#msg24624
That leads back to your initial claim of Jesus being a fictitious character, based on Gnostic teachings.......AND why non-Christian sources, making reference to Jesus Christ have such value. By establishing that such references were made and are legit, it refutes the claim that Jesus was fictitious (regardless of Gnostic teachings). It would also explain why certain skeptics are hell-bent (sorry about that!!!) to cry forgery, regarding every single non-Christian reference to Jesus.


You are the only person on this board who believes that you have made a case for non-Christian writers referring to Jesus. I haven’t mentioned any forgeries. I don’t need to, to make this case. I am asking you why you say that the Bible is the Word of God. You’ve yet to come up with one reason that stands up.


Quote from: MCWAY link=topic=2166.msg24624#msg24624
My guess would be, for starters, the Bible doesn't refer to itself as the "Bible" (largely because the OT was penned before Christ's birth). The word "Scripture" is used often, making reference to both Old and New Testament verses. That's likely where the trend starts, as far as modern Christians (relatively speaking) calling the Bible the Word of God.


So...it’s a trend? A fashion? A whim of latter day Christians to call the Bible the Word of God? And thus not divine edict, or anything like. In other words, a lifestyle choice?


Quote from: MCWAY link=topic=2166.msg24624#msg24624
And, notwithstanding your "myth" charges, if there's one book that has been anything but unquestioned, it's the Bible, including and especially the aspect of its Divine inspiration. Paul states that Scripture ....

Kindly finish this point, MCWAY. You broke off halfway through about Paul.


Quote from: MCWAY link=topic=2166.msg24624#msg24624
if there's one book that has been anything but unquestioned, it's the Bible, including and especially the aspect of its Divine inspiration.

Yes, you’re right. And why it’s continually under question is because no-one has ever managed to provide a satisfactory answer to why the Bible should be known as the Word of God. Added to that, archaeologists and linguists are now discovering artefacts that also throw doubt on its historicity. And as if all that wasn't enough, nobody can quite bring themselves to believe that this beautiful universe was created by an invisible god who rails and curses and rains terror down on anybody who doesn't believe he's there.



Quote from: MCWAY link=topic=2166.msg24624#msg24624
The burning at the stake had little to do with spreading the Gospel or reading Scripture for one's self. I doubt that Henry VIII (or the other 7 Henrys, for that matter), Elizabeth, or Mary cared how many folks actually got baptized, held Bible studies, or had a legitimate walk with the Lord.

Oh, squeak squeak! I can hear the sound of goal posts sliding around!

As you correctly point out, being a Christian then was a case of political necessity and nothing to do with the soul. However, we were not talking in this context of soul matters. We were talking about why people who could afford it had to have a Bible in their house. And they had to have one for political reasons. They could no more function in their society without being seen to be Christian than we could in ours without mobile phones and computers. Thus Bibles were best sellers.


Quote from: MCWAY link=topic=2166.msg24624#msg24624

And that has what to do with the subject at hand? Of course, that would be a classic case of the Catholic Church claiming that the Bible mentioned something that it DID NOT.


I mentioned Galileo as part of my building up a scenario of what life was like then for those who did not toe the party line - the dogma of the Christian religion, which was then the Catholic church.

And I don’t know why you fundies always so lightly dismiss the Catholics as if they’re nothing to do with you. I know, from personal experience, that their beliefs differ very little from the Protestants or Evangelicals or whatever you want to call yourselves, and that it all comes down to in the end is some fine print over the Eucharist.

Otherwise, you are both the same, however much you hate to admit it.


Quote from: MCWAY link=topic=2166.msg24624#msg24624
I'm sure you could. However, you'd be simply citing more examples of people, expanding their imperial, commercial, and their financial interests, doing such under the premise of "conversion to Christianity".


Once again, you are missing the point MCWAY – and I’m starting now to wonder about your intellectual honesty. I’m a professional writer and I write in very plain English, so you should be able to calmly assimilate my points and respond to them rationally. You keep slipping things out of context and moving the goal posts. So are you truly misunderstanding or it is really a refusal to understand?

Let me try again. There was a reason that I was talking about the expansion of imperial, commercial and financial interests under the premise of conversion to Christianity.

What spearheaded that expansionist thrust was missionary activity, under one guise of another, be it Jesuit or Protestant, and the missionaries were the Bible’s largest marketplace at that time.  The publishers sold it to them cheap or at knock down prices, and then the missionaries gave it away. So of course it was a best seller.

Here’s an example of how it was done (my bolding):

http://www.mundus.ac.uk/cgi-bin/search?coll_id=292&inst_id=38&keyword=Asia


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The British and Foreign Bible Society (BFBS) was one of the many voluntary societies that grew up in the wake of the Evangelical Revival of the 18th century. It was founded on 7th March 1804, with a non-denominational constitution and a declared aim "to encourage a wider circulation of the Holy Scriptures" at home and abroad. It succeeded in gaining wide support from the Church of England and the Free Churches, mainly, but not exclusively, from the Evangelical wing of each denomination.

The Society set out to publish, or to help others to publish, editions of the Bible in any language for which there was a readership. In 1965 it reckoned its total issues over 160 years as some 723,000,000 volumes in 829 languages. The Society was publisher and distributor only. ...Since Bibles were often sold at less than cost price, the Society depended on donations from its supporters as well as income from sales. The maintenance of a large supporting constituency was therefore a necessary part of the Society's activity.

The Society always relied on individual supporters to distribute its Bibles, and consignments were taken by clergymen, travellers, merchants, solders and sailors "for sale or gratuitous distribution". Missionaries all over the world looked to the Society to publish their translations, and received generous discounts when purchasing Bibles for distribution.

I’m sure if I had donors paying to publish my book, Lord of the Dance, plus thousands of clergymen, missionaries travellers, merchants, soldiers and sailors to travel the world and give it way, then it would also shoot to the top of the bestseller lists! Wouldn’ t make it the Word of God, though.


Quote from: MCWAY link=topic=2166.msg24624#msg24624
You asked me why I believe the Bible is the word of God, and I gave my answer. Whether you think my reasons are good, based on your alleged ability to destroy them, is your own affair.


There’ s nothing alleged about it, MCWAY. Your argument has been destroyed. You just don’t have the wit to see it.


http://captporridge.com/bb/index.php?topic=2166.90
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columbusdude82

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Trying to reason with MCWAY is like a broken pencil: Pointless!

His mind's operating system has been completely hijacked and subverted by mind viruses that leave him unable to think clearly.

Hence his long ranting posts that just throw sand in everyone's eyes and repeat the fallacies that I have debunked many times over the past months.

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Trying to reason with MCWAY is like a broken pencil: Pointless!

His mind's operating system has been completely hijacked and subverted by mind viruses that leave him unable to think clearly.

Hence his long ranting posts that just throw sand in everyone's eyes and repeat the fallacies that I have debunked many times over the past months.

Well, at Kokobridge, he is up against real experts in ancient history, archaeology and religions and boy he getting owned! You read some of the threads... :D
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Well, at Kokobridge, he is up against real experts in ancient history, archaeology and religions and boy he getting owned! You read some of the threads... :D

Trapezkerl, so you finally admit that you are not a "real expert" in these matters and shouldn't be debating MCWAY here?   ;D

And this is one of your "real experts in religions"?

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And I don’t know why you fundies always so lightly dismiss the Catholics as if they’re nothing to do with you. I know, from personal experience, that their beliefs differ very little from the Protestants or Evangelicals or whatever you want to call yourselves, and that it all comes down to in the end is some fine print over the Eucharist.

Otherwise, you are both the same, however much you hate to admit it.

Roman Catholics and Protestans are "both the same", other than "some fine print over the Eucharist"?  This guy doesn't know what he is talking about.  There are many differences between Roman Catholics and Protestants, and the main difference is not "some fine print over the Eucharist."  The two major differences that set the Roman Catholic Church apart from all Protestant denominations are

1. "Sola Escritura"(Scripture alone):  The authority of the Bible and not the authority of the pope or Roman Catholic Church traditions and dogma.

2. Faith alone: Salvation through faith in Jesus Christ alone, and not through good works of righteousness or through following Roman Catholic Church traditions and dogma.

MCWAY

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Trapezkerl, so you finally admit that you are not a "real expert" in these matters and shouldn't be debating MCWAY here?   ;D


And this is one of your "real experts in religions"?

Roman Catholics and Protestans are "both the same", other than "some fine print over the Eucharist"?  This guy doesn't know what he is talking about.  There are many differences between Roman Catholics and Protestants, and the main difference is not "some fine print over the Eucharist."  The two major differences that set the Roman Catholic Church apart from all Protestant denominations are

1. "Sola Escritura"(Scripture alone):  The authority of the Bible and not the authority of the pope or Roman Catholic Church traditions and dogma.

2. Faith alone: Salvation through faith in Jesus Christ alone, and not through good works of righteousness or through following Roman Catholic Church traditions and dogma.

This is but a prime example of what I said some time ago. If he's admitting anything, it's what tends to be the case with a lot of atheists: They don't fare that well, on a level playing field, or when the deck isn't so stacked in their favor. Again, it's "safety in numbers".

Basically, Trapezkerl couldn't back up his words or stand on his own merit. So, he ran, like a thief in the night, to that other site, inviting me there, with the hope that his skeptic buddies could curse and spew me into submission.

As for Ishtar, she basically asked my why I believe the Bible to be the word of God. When I gave her my answer, she later claimed that I did not convince her, nor did I give her a "good" reason.

Take Trapezkerl; pop a few ephedrine pills with some caffeine in him; and you basically have Minimalist, a foul-mouthed guy, with conspiracy theories out the wazoo, with little to support them, other than his come-hell-or-high-water stance that "The Christians made it all up". (i.e. he has flung accusations of forgery, left and right, when it comes to the non-Christian references to Jesus).

But, much like Trapzekerl, his sizzle outweighs his steak. And as for Trapzekerl, it's business as usual. When he can't back his smack, here, he'll flee there to get some soothing and an skeptic recharge.

BTW - Ishtar is a woman, who (unlike Trapezkerl and Minimalist) is actually a somewhat civil person, despite that potshot at the end of her post.

Necrosis

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This is but a prime example of what I said some time ago. If he's admitting anything, it's what tends to be the case with a lot of atheists: They don't fare that well, on a level playing field, or when the deck isn't so stacked in their favor. Again, it's "safety in numbers".

Basically, Trapezkerl couldn't back up his words or stand on his own merit. So, he ran, like a thief in the night, to that other site, inviting me there, with the hope that his skeptic buddies could curse and spew me into submission.

As for Ishtar, she basically asked my why I believe the Bible to be the word of God. When I gave her my answer, she later claimed that I did not convince her, nor did I give her a "good" reason.

Take Trapezkerl; pop a few ephedrine pills with some caffeine in him; and you basically have Minimalist, a foul-mouthed guy, with conspiracy theories out the wazoo, with little to support them, other than his come-hell-or-high-water stance that "The Christians made it all up". (i.e. he has flung accusations of forgery, left and right, when it comes to the non-Christian references to Jesus).

But, much like Trapzekerl, his sizzle outweighs his steak. And as for Trapzekerl, it's business as usual. When he can't back his smack, here, he'll flee there to get some soothing and an skeptic recharge.

BTW - Ishtar is a woman, who (unlike Trapezkerl and Minimalist) is actually a somewhat civil person, despite that potshot at the end of her post.

are you serious about consipracy theories? i mean there are what, a thousand holy books and you have no good evidence to prove yours is true other then the book itself.

the qu ran has hitorical accuracies also.

MCWAY

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are you serious about consipracy theories? i mean there are what, a thousand holy books and you have no good evidence to prove yours is true other then the book itself.


Maybe, you should pay attention to the context, in which I made that statement, before you go firing off another rant.


the qu ran has hitorical accuracies also.

What's that got to do with certain conspiratory claims of non-Biblical references to Jesus Christ being forged?

Deicide

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Trapezkerl, so you finally admit that you are not a "real expert" in these matters and shouldn't be debating MCWAY here?   ;D

And this is one of your "real experts in religions"?

Roman Catholics and Protestans are "both the same", other than "some fine print over the Eucharist"?  This guy doesn't know what he is talking about.  There are many differences between Roman Catholics and Protestants, and the main difference is not "some fine print over the Eucharist."  The two major differences that set the Roman Catholic Church apart from all Protestant denominations are

1. "Sola Escritura"(Scripture alone):  The authority of the Bible and not the authority of the pope or Roman Catholic Church traditions and dogma.

2. Faith alone: Salvation through faith in Jesus Christ alone, and not through good works of righteousness or through following Roman Catholic Church traditions and dogma.

I have never claimed to be an expert in these matters. I have a fair amount of knowledge of ancient history but my expertise lies in an area entirely unrelated to the Bible. What is interesting is that when confronted with people who are experts, MCWAY uses the same apologetics as always. In fact MCWAY, unlike you, cannot even concede that it is faith that motivates him rather than evidence. MCWAY is the only one who thinks he is winning the arguments; just read them, his silly comments about idolatry and then he gets schooled on the facts that the Hebrews were always polytheists. I have said it before. MCWAY had this stuff browbeaten into him as a child, hence his vehemence and stubborness and even now infects the next generation with it.
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Deicide

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What's that got to do with certain conspiratory claims of non-Biblical references to Jesus Christ being forged?

Your position is ridiculous MCWAY.

If an author such as Josephus has a habit of mentioning family relations or towns in a specific manner or in great detail and does this 99% of the time, you are only resorting to special pleading by saying that he is not obligated to do so. Of course he is not, but if he does this most of the time, it is odd and strikes one as being out of place. That is how everyone else sees it, only you don't.
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MCWAY

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I have never claimed to be an expert in these matters. I have a fair amount of knowledge of ancient history but my expertise lies in an area entirely unrelated to the Bible. What is interesting is that when confronted with people who are experts, MCWAY uses the same apologetics as always. In fact MCWAY, unlike you, cannot even concede that it is faith that motivates him rather than evidence. MCWAY is the only one who thinks he is winning the arguments; just read them, his silly comments about idolatry and then he gets schooled on the facts that the Hebrews were always polytheists. I have said it before. MCWAY had this stuff browbeaten into him as a child, hence his vehemence and stubborness and even now infects the next generation with it.


What's interesting here is when YOU are confronted by people who don't subscribe to your insults, and cut-and-paste-gone-wild tactics, you run to the other site, licking your wounds and hoping your fellow non-believers can give you a boost. That explains why you came up with this thread.

As far as Ishtar's post goes, Ishtar doesn't state that the Hebrews were always polytheistic; in fact, she claims that Aaron and the Levite priests imposed monotheism onto the Israelites. She takes exception with my stating that Israel slipped into idolatry. In fact, to some degree, I was agreeing with her post, as I mentioned that Abraham's father was polytheistic, given where he lived. Abrhaham, however, turned to worshipping God, as many of His descendants did, until they got enslaved in Egypt.

Browbeating is what you were hoping your friend at the Koko site would do to me, which again is why you wanted me to go over there and why you are basically clapping like a seal with a fresh fish in his mouth, every time you think I'm getting "thrashed and owned". Unfortunately for you and your fellow skeptics, it takes more than foul-mouthed skeptic blubbering, attached to pastes, from atheist websites to get to me.

 


Your position is ridiculous MCWAY.

If an author such as Josephus has a habit of mentioning family relations or towns in a specific manner or in great detail and does this 99% of the time, you are only resorting to special pleading by saying that he is not obligated to do so. Of course he is not, but if he does this most of the time, it is odd and strikes one as being out of place. That is how everyone else sees it, only you don't.

You mean, how every other skeptic sees it (Remember you ain't on the Koko site). The best you can to do to explain why the second reference to Jesus Christ in the Antiquities was forged is to bleat about James being identified by his brother, instead of his dad? Even by your standards, that's pitiful, about as pitiful as wailing about Josephus not mentoning Nazareth, even though of all the towns of Galilee, about a fifth are mentioned by name in the Antiquities.


The irony of it all is that you and your skeptic buddies can't seem to make up your mind. On one hand, you accuse folks like me and Loco of just relying on faith and the Bible, instead of "evidence". Yet, when either one of us point to extra-Biblical, non-Christian sources, it's time to go to the conspiracy theories for the non-believers.


Deicide

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What's interesting here is when YOU are confronted by people who don't subscribe to your insults, and cut-and-paste-gone-wild tactics, you run to the other site, licking your wounds and hoping your fellow non-believers can give you a boost. That explains why you came up with this thread.

As far as Ishtar's post goes, Ishtar doesn't state that the Hebrews were always polytheistic; in fact, she claims that Aaron and the Levite priests imposed monotheism onto the Israelites. She takes exception with my stating that Israel slipped into idolatry. In fact, to some degree, I was agreeing with her post, as I mentioned that Abraham's father was polytheistic, given where he lived. Abrhaham, however, turned to worshipping God, as many of His descendants did, until they got enslaved in Egypt.

Browbeating is what you were hoping your friend at the Koko site would do to me, which again is why you wanted me to go over there and why you are basically clapping like a seal with a fresh fish in his mouth, every time you think I'm getting "thrashed and owned". Unfortunately for you and your fellow skeptics, it takes more than foul-mouthed skeptic blubbering, attached to pastes, from atheist websites to get to me.

 


You mean, how every other skeptic sees it (Remember you ain't on the Koko site). The best you can to do to explain why the second reference to Jesus Christ in the Antiquities was forged is to bleat about James being identified by his brother, instead of his dad? Even by your standards, that's pitiful, about as pitiful as wailing about Josephus not mentoning Nazareth, even though of all the towns of Galilee, about a fifth are mentioned by name in the Antiquities.


The irony of it all is that you and your skeptic buddies can't seem to make up your mind. On one hand, you accuse folks like me and Loco of just relying on faith and the Bible, instead of "evidence". Yet, when either one of us point to extra-Biblical, non-Christian sources, it's time to go to the conspiracy theories for the non-believers.



Ishtar's from the UK. She has fewer religious nuts over there, hence her tolerance.
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MCWAY

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Ishtar's from the UK. She has fewer religious nuts over there, hence her tolerance.

And this is relevant because............

There are people on GetBig that are from the UK. What does that have to do with your fleeing to Koko, everytime your claim go south?

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And this is relevant because............

There are people on GetBig that are from the UK. What does that have to do with your fleeing to Koko, everytime your claim go south?

Kokobridge is an experiment for you. I didn't flee.

If 99% of the world's Biblical scholars came out and said, Jesus Christ was a Gnostic fiction and the NT  is 99% contrived fiction and 99% percent of the Biblical archaeologists came out and said that 99% of the OT is fiction, would you still believe?

Would there be any evidence sufficient to convince you that you may possibly be wrong? Answer me this most important of questions....

If you cannot present a scenario which would convince you then there is something seriously wrong with your belief...
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OzmO

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Trapster, wasn't it you who told me of the futility of arguing with someone's beliefs?

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Trapster, wasn't it you who told me of the futility of arguing with someone's beliefs?

Just want him to admit nothing could ever change his mind, officially, homey.  ;D

You have good bodybuilding genetics?
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MCWAY

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Kokobridge is an experiment for you. I didn't flee.

If 99% of the world's Biblical scholars came out and said, Jesus Christ was a Gnostic fiction and the NT  is 99% contrived fiction and 99% percent of the Biblical archaeologists came out and said that 99% of the OT is fiction, would you still believe?

The simple fact is 99% of Biblical scholars say nothing of the sort. So, your little scenario is pointless and simply another way to hide.  Next!!!!!


Would there be any evidence sufficient to convince you that you may possibly be wrong? Answer me this most important of questions....

I've seen such. After further inquiry and a bit more research I've found that such was not the case.

What exactly make this question "most important"? Is this where you do the cut-and-paste routine from your skeptic website du jour, or run to Minimalist to prop your statements up?



If you cannot present a scenario which would convince you then there is something seriously wrong with your belief...

Since that was your conclusion from the start, I'll save myself the trouble.


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The simple fact is 99% of Biblical scholars say nothing of the sort. So, your little scenario is pointless and simply another way to hide.  Next!!!!!

I've seen such. After further inquiry and a bit more research I've found that such was not the case.

What exactly make this question "most important"? Is this where you do the cut-and-paste routine from your skeptic website du jour, or run to Minimalist to prop your statements up?


Since that was your conclusion from the start, I'll save myself the trouble.



That's the difference between you and me. I know exactly what I would need to see to change my mind and become a Christian and if it happened I would become one immediately. You on the other hand cannot present any scenario that would warrant such a change.
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Dos Equis

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What's the purpose of a thread like this?  Feeling a little insecure? 

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What's the purpose of a thread like this?  Feeling a little insecure? 

No. The purpose of this thread is to demonstrate that someone who is unwillingly to change his opinion or mind has serious issues. Nothing could ever happen to change his mind or revise his opinion or yours for that matter and that is very sad.
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Dos Equis

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No. The purpose of this thread is to demonstrate that someone who is unwillingly to change his opinion or mind has serious issues. Nothing could ever happen to change his mind or revise his opinion or yours for that matter and that is very sad.

Certainly doesn't appear that way to me.  Looks like an (unsuccessful) attempt on your part to embarrass someone who keeps kicking your rear end whenever you try and debate him.  But that's just my opinion.   :)

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What's the purpose of a thread like this?  Feeling a little insecure? 


haider

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No. The purpose of this thread is to demonstrate that someone who is unwillingly to change his opinion or mind has serious issues. Nothing could ever happen to change his mind or revise his opinion or yours for that matter and that is very sad.
If you restrict your opinions to this without the abusive fundie bullshit then people would listen to you a lot more.

good post.
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If you restrict your opinions to this without the abusive fundie bullshit then people would listen to you a lot more.

good post.

It's hard not to be abusive when someone believes that the entire biosphere of earth was loaded up onto a big wooden boat....
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haider

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It's hard not to be abusive when someone believes that the entire biosphere of earth was loaded up onto a big wooden boat....
I see where you're coming from, but being abusive is counter-productive.

but emotionally for yourself it works wonders hahaha, prolly helps u get more sleep at night  ;D
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OzmO

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  • Drink enough Kool-aid and you'll think its healthy
Just want him to admit nothing could ever change his mind, officially, homey.  ;D

You have good bodybuilding genetics?

q1: It will never happen.

q1: not really, one bowl of rice and i put on 20 pounds  ;D.