An answer to Stella's Question; what would it take for me to convert to Christ-

[Deicide]

I will be asking more questions as I have time but this stood out to me.

That is horrible!  Were his parents there also?  What happened to them?  Where had your father lived prior to incarceration?  Have you ever read the book "The Hiding Place" by Corrie Ten Boom?

No, I haven't read that book.

My father was born in Budapest.

His father abandoned his family and his birth mother bled to death whilst she was giving birth to him.

[Butterbean]

No, I haven't read that book.

You might think about reading the book... it's about a woman and her family that hid Jews in Holland and then got caught and ended up in (I think) Ravensbruck.  It's a fast read and very good.

His father abandoned his family and his birth mother bled to death whilst she was giving birth to him.

   I'm starting to understand why you have your view of marriage but I hope you can know that some marriages - though they have ups and downs - can be good.

I shall answer the general marriage question first.

I regard marriage as a primitive/unnecessary/religious institution that has outlived its usefulness. Biologically it is incompatible with human beings' drives and behaviour. Humans are by nature polygamous in their sexual relations. Moreover, sexual love has a half life of approximately 3 years, after which 'love' becomes an issue of convenience, habit and the need for security (and security is an illusion many crave). Desire withers and little remains of what once was; one can attempt to fight it but fighting one's own biology is truly a doomed task. On a philosophical level I think it the ultimate abrogation of personal freedom and liberty. I shall quote Thomas Jefferson here.

By sexual love do you mean infatuation?


What is the longest "romantic" relationship you have had?

[Deicide]

You might think about reading the book... it's about a woman and her family that hid Jews in Holland and then got caught and ended up in (I think) Ravensbruck.  It's a fast read and very good.
    I'm starting to understand why you have your view of marriage but I hope you can know that some marriages - though they have ups and downs - can be good.



By sexual love do you mean infatuation?


What is the longest "romantic" relationship you have had?

2 years.

You are drawing the wrong conclusions. My views on marriage have nothing to do with what I have mentioned of my parents.

It has everything to do with biology, philosophical opposition and the fact that I cherish freedom.

[MCWAY]

I shall answer the general marriage question first.

I regard marriage as a primitive/unnecessary/religious institution that has outlived its usefulness. Biologically it is incompatible with human beings' drives and behaviour. Humans are by nature polygamous in their sexual relations. Moreover, sexual love has a half life of approximately 3 years, after which 'love' becomes an issue of convenience, habit and the need for security (and security is an illusion many crave). Desire withers and little remains of what once was; one can attempt to fight it but fighting one's own biology is truly a doomed task. On a philosophical level I think it the ultimate abrogation of personal freedom and liberty. I shall quote Thomas Jefferson here.

Rough translation: You're a "ho"!! 

[Deicide]

Rough translation: You're a "ho"!! 

For freedom and personal responsibility; reliance on others particularly marriage partners is a dangerous way to go.

[MCWAY]

For freedom and personal responsibility; reliance on others particularly marriage partners is a dangerous way to go.

Marriage, like many other things in like, requires risk. But, also like other things, there are calculated risks and there are wreckless ones.

Most men put more research and effort into buying a car or a house, than they do in choosing a wife. There may be plenty of women with whom you want to get buck wild. But how many of them would you want to:

- Represent you in business and financial affairs
- Raise your children
- Entrust with your most valued possessions
- Carry your name and legacy

There are other factors to consider:

- How's the relationship with her family (contrary to popular belief, you DO marry the family, when you pick a wife)?
- How does she resolve conflict?
- Does she understand her role in the marriage? Does she understand your role?
- Are you "equally yoked"? As I heard years ago (from a joke from Chris Rock), you can both be saved or you can both be crackheads; but, you can't be on your way to church, while your spouse is about to hit the pipe.



Some guys use the wrong "head" to pick their bride, which will be to their detriment. As the saying goes, "You can't turn a ho into a housewife".

[Deicide]

Marriage, like many other things in like, requires risk. But, also like other things, there are calculated risks and there are wreckless ones.

Most men put more research and effort into buying a car or a house, than they do in choosing a wife. There may be plenty of women with whom you want to get buck wild. But how many of them would you want to:

- Represent you in business and financial affairs
- Raise your children
- Entrust with your most valued possessions
- Carry your name and legacy

There are other factors to consider:

- How's the relationship with her family (contrary to popular belief, you DO marry the family, when you pick a wife)?
- How does she resolve conflict?
- Does she understand her role in the marriage? Does she understand your role?
- Are you "equally yoked"? As I heard years ago (from a joke from Chris Rock), you can both be saved or you can both be crackheads; but, you can't be on your way to church, while your spouse is about to hit the pipe.



Some guys use the wrong "head" to pick their bride, which will be to their detriment. As the saying goes, "You can't turn a ho into a housewife".

Trust no woman, or anything one or else for that matter...

My motto can be coined from the film Heat:

A guy once told me, "Do not have any attachments, do not have anything in your life you are not willing to walk out on in 30 seconds flat if you spot the heat around the corner."

[loco]

Marriage, like many other things in like, requires risk. But, also like other things, there are calculated risks and there are wreckless ones.

Most men put more research and effort into buying a car or a house, than they do in choosing a wife. There may be plenty of women with whom you want to get buck wild. But how many of them would you want to:

- Represent you in business and financial affairs
- Raise your children
- Entrust with your most valued possessions
- Carry your name and legacy

There are other factors to consider:

- How's the relationship with her family (contrary to popular belief, you DO marry the family, when you pick a wife)?
- How does she resolve conflict?
- Does she understand her role in the marriage? Does she understand your role?
- Are you "equally yoked"? As I heard years ago (from a joke from Chris Rock), you can both be saved or you can both be crackheads; but, you can't be on your way to church, while your spouse is about to hit the pipe.



Some guys use the wrong "head" to pick their bride, which will be to their detriment. As the saying goes, "You can't turn a ho into a housewife".

Darn good post, MCWAY!   

[loco]

My motto can be coined from the film Heat:

A guy once told me, "Do not have any attachments, do not have anything in your life you are not willing to walk out on in 30 seconds flat if you spot the heat around the corner."

Deicide, that quote is by a criminal, words a criminal should live by...good movie though.   

[Deicide]

Deicide, that quote is by a criminal, words a criminal should live by...good movie though.   

It's a great film which I have always related to in my life. I am not a criminal, simply someone who doesn't want to jeopardise his freedom.

[Deicide]

I'm angry. I'm very angry, Ralph. You know, you can ball my wife if she wants you to. You can lounge around here on her sofa, in her ex-husband's dead-tech, post-modernistic bullshit house if you want to. But you do not get to watch my fucking television set! [/quote

It's like you said. All I am is what I'm going after.

[24KT]

Here's one way some of the neocons and religious right love to win followers to Christianity. 

[Colossus_500]

2 years.

You are drawing the wrong conclusions. My views on marriage have nothing to do with what I have mentioned of my parents.

It has everything to do with biology, philosophical opposition and the fact that I cherish freedom.

I hope you and Stella don't mind me jumping in on the conversation, Deicide.  But, I have to disagree with your statement of your views on marriage not being influenced by your parents.  Almost everything that we become as adults, whether we are exactly like them or are a total 180 from them, is both directly and indirectly tied to the influence of our parents.

This reminds me of the sermon that our pastor gave last Sunday for Father's day.  He talked about how great the influence of a father is.  He gave a wonderful illustration of this point by telling the congregation about one of the missionaries that we support and how he has influenced his children .  This man has only one arm, so naturally the tasks that you and I take for granted are just as easy for him, but just a little more complicated.  The pastor told of how the missionary goes about brushing his teeth:he puts the handle of the toothbrush in his mouth, picks up the toothpaste and squirts it on the brush, puts the toothpaste back down, takes the handle out of his mouth and then brushes.  If you were to watch his children brush their teeth, all four of them follow the same process as their father...even though they have two arms intact and could easily use two hands.  The other account my pastor gave was when he visited the missionary in Africa.  They were all at a  church service and the congregation was at worship, clapping and signing.  My pastor said he looked over at the missionary and say that he was slapping his one arm on his knee in order to "clap" with the congregation.  Then, my past noticed that all 4 of the missionary's children were sitting in the same row with their father.  Guess how they were "clapping"?  Yep, though they had two good hands to clap, they too were slapping one hand on their knee just like their father.  All 4 of them.      I thought that was so neat.  So it's extremely tough to say that what we believe and how we do things is not directly or indirectly tied to the influence of our parents.

Though you've sited plenty of legitimate questions that you'd like answers to before you would come to know Christ, I think the common denominator for all of your doubts is the absence of a personal relationship.  My guess is if you were willing to allow God to influence you like the missionary's children did with him, then you probably wouldn't have the doubts of Christ deity.   

I know it will probably bug you (and others like C-dude), but I just wanted to pray for you, bro. 

Father, I thank you so much for the likes of Deicide and Columbusdude82.  I'm grateful for the passion that they display on this web thread.  Though I admit that I'm often irritated at the way they treat you, there's another part of me that feels for them because they don't know you the way others like Stella, Beach, Loco, and McWay, and I do.  God, I know that the very fact that they come here to argue your existence is some sort of effort to know you, whether it be positive or not.  That alone, Lord, makes me smile because I know that you are chipping away at their hardened spirits.  Only you know all that they have seen, heard, and experienced in their lifetime, so only you know what it will take to bring them to a closer relationship.  Lord, please use those of us who know you as tools of witness to your existence.  But more than your existence, Father, use us to present your graciousness and passion to know all of your children even the ones that store up the most hatred for you.  I ask that you would soften their hearts, Lord, and embrace them as you have done so many times for me and the others who know you.  Help Deicide to see the very wonders of biology in your creation, Lord.  Help him to understand that your philosophy is simply to love and cherish him as your own.  And help him to discern that he is, indeed, free to think as he wants, and that, though he may choose not to love you, you will love him all the same.  As much as you love me.  God, you are so AWESOME!!! Thank you for my fellow followers like STella, who are totally on fire for bringing others to you in the most gracious way possible.  I'm so amazed at how you use us, Lord.  I thank you for the persistence and knowledge that Loco and McWay bring to this ever-going conversation.  Thank you for Beach's discerning heart, Lord.  More than anything, Father, I thank you for being Lord over my life and refusing to let go even when I tried to hide from you.  I love you with all of my heart and soul, God.  And it is with total brokenness that I come to lay all these things at your feet, Lord, and ask all these things in the name of your blessed Son, Christ Jesus.....Amen

God bless you, Deicide.   

[Lord Humungous]

ianty? Stella asked me this question and I have decided to answer at length here. Give me this and I am a Christian tommorow.

I often say that if I were given good evidence that Christianity were true I would convert in a heart beat. What would it take to convince me that Christianity is true? Well, it’s a rather long list, but before we get to very specific pieces of evidence I have begin with the absolute prerequisites (at least one would have to be fulfilled) for even entertaining the thought. They would be:

1. Contemporaneous documentation (eyewitness or otherwise) by secular/Roman authorities of the events described in the Gospels (miracles, trial, resurrection, etc.), yes, I said contemporaneous. Nothing written decades or centuries after the ‘fact’ is acceptable, particularly given the nature of the claims made in the Gospels.

2. Contemporaneous coins and/or inscriptions making very clear references with great detail to the alleged Jesus of Nazareth.

3. Contemporaneous art work (sculpture, fresco, etc.) physically depicting the alleged Jesus of Nazareth.

4. Contemporaneous biographical information written by those who knew him as a child and witnessed the first 3 decades of his life prior to his alleged resurrection; childhood details would be very relevant. 

Of course #1 would be the best but if conditions 2 and 3 were fulfilled I might entertain the notion and 4 would be great as well. By contemporaneous I mean within the time frame that the alleged Christ Jesus is supposed to have lived; from 6 BCE (when Matthew claims he was born) or 6 CE (when Luke claims he was born); note the contradiction in birth dates; to 33 CE.

So those conditions would have to be fulfilled.

Another important requirement would be a lack of contradictory information/data, but as it is the Bible contradicts itself on a thousand fronts (see the example mentioned above).

1. No informational contradictions.

This too would have to be fulfilled.

Now assuming that these conditions had been met to even consider the notion of Christianity seriously, I will now list various examples of things which the Bible would have to contain to utterly convince me that Christianity is true. At least three of these conditions would have to be met; any less than three I would consider a coincidence and of course the more the better, e.g. six conditions were met. Here are some examples of what would utterly convince me to become a Christian:

Predictions and Prophecies

The prophecy/prediction cannot be vague or nebulous in nature, allowing for still vaguer interpretations and illegitimate claims of fulfillment. They would have display pinpoint accuracy in terms of both time, place and factual information as befits a book originating from an omniscient/omnipotent author. Here are some examples; they are by no means limited to ones I mention; if others surfaced they would have to conform to the same standards.

1.The Bible predicts the American Revolutionary War; this includes the exact date of its commencement and its end (1775-1781, including day and month). Important personages such as George Washington, Ben Franklin and Thomas Jefferson would need to be mentioned as well as all important places (obviously North America would have to be mentioned) Details of the various battles, including total casualties, victories and loss as well as financial expenditures would have to be mentioned and they would have to correlate with the data we have from that time. Furthermore related events would have to be mentioned, such as the Boston Tea Party.

2.The Bible predicts the destruction of Hiroshima and Nagasaki; this includes the exact date of the bombing (August 6th, 1945), the total number of casualties, the blast radius of each respective A-bomb as well as the reasons for bombing and the persons involved in the decision and creation (Truman, Oppenheimer, etc.). The prediction correlates exactly to the data we have on the subject to a T. (Of course Japan would have to be mentioned as well).

3.The Bible predicts the emergence of the Internet; with pinpoint accuracy the Bible mentions and describes the emergence of a new form of telecommunications system, arising in the late 20th century. It describes how it functions (on a fiber optic level) and calls it by name (Internet); detailed mention and description of e-mail, blogs, web pages and Internet forums is made. All information corresponds exactly to the data we have on hand.

4.The Bible predicts an earthquake; the prediction includes precise data concerning seismic activity, the exact number on the Richter scale and precise geographical data, including latitude and longitude as well as the nearest fault line; total deaths, number of injured people, property destruction are mentioned in great detail and correspond exactly to the data we have on record (as must the scientific information, e.g. seismic activity)

5. The Bible predicts a volcanic eruption; same as earthquake with relevant geological terminology for volcanoes (VEI, Volcanic Explosivity Index).

Knowledge and Information

The Bible would have to contain precise knowledge that could not possibly have been known at the time, in particular advanced scientific knowledge that only an omniscient super being could know. Some examples (but not limited to) below:

1. Any mention of one the 4 laws of thermodynamics, including their description, application and mathematical details in a specific context.

2. Any mention of one of the 3 of Newton’s laws of motion; same as with the laws of thermodynamics.

3. Precise descriptions and understanding of matter, including all levels; the molecular, atomic, sub-atomic, etc. The periodic table is included as well as melting and freezing points of various forms of matter. All data must correspond to the facts as we know them.

4. Precise description and understanding of DNA and Genetics; all data must be accurate to a T.

5. Instructions for the construction of an aircraft that can achieve escape velocity; details must include aerodynamics, materials and precise engineering details and must correlate with the data we have on the matter.

If at least three of the conditions mentioned above (the more the better) were met in the Bible and the aforementioned prerequisites were fulfilled as well I would convert to Christianity tomorrow.



         



         

Wow, thats a bit ridiculous dont you think? Your requesting more proof of Jesus than science can prove of evolution ( which to this day is still called "The Theory of evolution" since their is no concrete evidence it took place)

all I need to turn my back on my Christian views is the missing link

[Deicide]

I hope you and Stella don't mind me jumping in on the conversation, Deicide.  But, I have to disagree with your statement of your views on marriage not being influenced by your parents.  Almost everything that we become as adults, whether we are exactly like them or are a total 180 from them, is both directly and indirectly tied to the influence of our parents.

This reminds me of the sermon that our pastor gave last Sunday for Father's day.  He talked about how great the influence of a father is.  He gave a wonderful illustration of this point by telling the congregation about one of the missionaries that we support and how he has influenced his children .  This man has only one arm, so naturally the tasks that you and I take for granted are just as easy for him, but just a little more complicated.  The pastor told of how the missionary goes about brushing his teeth:he puts the handle of the toothbrush in his mouth, picks up the toothpaste and squirts it on the brush, puts the toothpaste back down, takes the handle out of his mouth and then brushes.  If you were to watch his children brush their teeth, all four of them follow the same process as their father...even though they have two arms intact and could easily use two hands.  The other account my pastor gave was when he visited the missionary in Africa.  They were all at a  church service and the congregation was at worship, clapping and signing.  My pastor said he looked over at the missionary and say that he was slapping his one arm on his knee in order to "clap" with the congregation.  Then, my past noticed that all 4 of the missionary's children were sitting in the same row with their father.  Guess how they were "clapping"?  Yep, though they had two good hands to clap, they too were slapping one hand on their knee just like their father.  All 4 of them.      I thought that was so neat.  So it's extremely tough to say that what we believe and how we do things is not directly or indirectly tied to the influence of our parents.

Though you've sited plenty of legitimate questions that you'd like answers to before you would come to know Christ, I think the common denominator for all of your doubts is the absence of a personal relationship.  My guess is if you were willing to allow God to influence you like the missionary's children did with him, then you probably wouldn't have the doubts of Christ deity.   

I know it will probably bug you (and others like C-dude), but I just wanted to pray for you, bro. 

Father, I thank you so much for the likes of Deicide and Columbusdude82.  I'm grateful for the passion that they display on this web thread.  Though I admit that I'm often irritated at the way they treat you, there's another part of me that feels for them because they don't know you the way others like Stella, Beach, Loco, and McWay, and I do.  God, I know that the very fact that they come here to argue your existence is some sort of effort to know you, whether it be positive or not.  That alone, Lord, makes me smile because I know that you are chipping away at their hardened spirits.  Only you know all that they have seen, heard, and experienced in their lifetime, so only you know what it will take to bring them to a closer relationship.  Lord, please use those of us who know you as tools of witness to your existence.  But more than your existence, Father, use us to present your graciousness and passion to know all of your children even the ones that store up the most hatred for you.  I ask that you would soften their hearts, Lord, and embrace them as you have done so many times for me and the others who know you.  Help Deicide to see the very wonders of biology in your creation, Lord.  Help him to understand that your philosophy is simply to love and cherish him as your own.  And help him to discern that he is, indeed, free to think as he wants, and that, though he may choose not to love you, you will love him all the same.  As much as you love me.  God, you are so AWESOME!!! Thank you for my fellow followers like STella, who are totally on fire for bringing others to you in the most gracious way possible.  I'm so amazed at how you use us, Lord.  I thank you for the persistence and knowledge that Loco and McWay bring to this ever-going conversation.  Thank you for Beach's discerning heart, Lord.  More than anything, Father, I thank you for being Lord over my life and refusing to let go even when I tried to hide from you.  I love you with all of my heart and soul, God.  And it is with total brokenness that I come to lay all these things at your feet, Lord, and ask all these things in the name of your blessed Son, Christ Jesus.....Amen

God bless you, Deicide.   

How about youy just pray to give me your big, black bodybuilding genetics?

[Colossus_500]

How about youy just pray to give me your big, black bodybuilding genetics?

HAAAAAAA

Be careful what you ask for, Deicide.  Being big isn't always what it's cracked up to be.  lol

[24KT]

Father, I thank you so much for the likes of Deicide and Columbusdude82.  I'm grateful for the passion that they display on this web thread.  Though I admit that I'm often irritated at the way they treat you, there's another part of me that feels for them because they don't know you the way others like Stella, Beach, Loco, and McWay, and I do.  God, I know that the very fact that they come here to argue your existence is some sort of effort to know you, whether it be positive or not.  That alone, Lord, makes me smile because I know that you are chipping away at their hardened spirits.  Only you know all that they have seen, heard, and experienced in their lifetime, so only you know what it will take to bring them to a closer relationship.  Lord, please use those of us who know you as tools of witness to your existence.  But more than your existence, Father, use us to present your graciousness and passion to know all of your children even the ones that store up the most hatred for you.  I ask that you would soften their hearts, Lord, and embrace them as you have done so many times for me and the others who know you.  Help Deicide to see the very wonders of biology in your creation, Lord.  Help him to understand that your philosophy is simply to love and cherish him as your own.  And help him to discern that he is, indeed, free to think as he wants, and that, though he may choose not to love you, you will love him all the same.  As much as you love me.  God, you are so AWESOME!!! Thank you for my fellow followers like STella, who are totally on fire for bringing others to you in the most gracious way possible.  I'm so amazed at how you use us, Lord.  I thank you for the persistence and knowledge that Loco and McWay bring to this ever-going conversation.  Thank you for Beach's discerning heart, Lord.  More than anything, Father, I thank you for being Lord over my life and refusing to let go even when I tried to hide from you.  I love you with all of my heart and soul, God.  And it is with total brokenness that I come to lay all these things at your feet, Lord, and ask all these things in the name of your blessed Son, Christ Jesus.....Amen

God bless you, Deicide.   

Wow Colossus, you really have a way with your prayers don't you?   Very nice!

[24KT]

HAAAAAAA

Be careful what you ask for, Deicide.  Being big isn't always what it's cracked up to be.  lol

[Deicide]

HAAAAAAA

Be careful what you ask for, Deicide.  Being big isn't always what it's cracked up to be.  lol

6'1" 292lbs....well, either you are a genetic freak or taking lots of 'goodies' or both...

[Colossus_500]

6'1" 292lbs....well, either you are a genetic freak or taking lots of 'goodies' or both...

100% genetic freak, or as I see it, just blessed with good genes.  Was benching over 200lbs is 7th grade...405 as a senior in high school. 

[Deicide]

100% genetic freak, or as I see it, just blessed with good genes.  Was benching over 200lbs is 7th grade...405 as a senior in high school. 

You must look down on all the puny white people at the gym huh?

[Butterbean]

I hope you and Stella don't mind me jumping in on the conversation, Deicide.  But, I have to disagree with your statement of your views on marriage not being influenced by your parents.  Almost everything that we become as adults, whether we are exactly like them or are a total 180 from them, is both directly and indirectly tied to the influence of our parents.

This reminds me of the sermon that our pastor gave last Sunday for Father's day.  He talked about how great the influence of a father is.  He gave a wonderful illustration of this point by telling the congregation about one of the missionaries that we support and how he has influenced his children .  This man has only one arm, so naturally the tasks that you and I take for granted are just as easy for him, but just a little more complicated.  The pastor told of how the missionary goes about brushing his teeth:he puts the handle of the toothbrush in his mouth, picks up the toothpaste and squirts it on the brush, puts the toothpaste back down, takes the handle out of his mouth and then brushes.  If you were to watch his children brush their teeth, all four of them follow the same process as their father...even though they have two arms intact and could easily use two hands.  The other account my pastor gave was when he visited the missionary in Africa.  They were all at a  church service and the congregation was at worship, clapping and signing.  My pastor said he looked over at the missionary and say that he was slapping his one arm on his knee in order to "clap" with the congregation.  Then, my past noticed that all 4 of the missionary's children were sitting in the same row with their father.  Guess how they were "clapping"?  Yep, though they had two good hands to clap, they too were slapping one hand on their knee just like their father.  All 4 of them.      I thought that was so neat.  So it's extremely tough to say that what we believe and how we do things is not directly or indirectly tied to the influence of our parents.

Though you've sited plenty of legitimate questions that you'd like answers to before you would come to know Christ, I think the common denominator for all of your doubts is the absence of a personal relationship.  My guess is if you were willing to allow God to influence you like the missionary's children did with him, then you probably wouldn't have the doubts of Christ deity.   

Ro, I agree w/the influence of the parents.  Thanks for sharing the stories of the missionary father and his children.  Good stuff

I know it will probably bug you (and others like C-dude), but I just wanted to pray for you, bro. 

Father, I thank you so much for the likes of Deicide and Columbusdude82.  I'm grateful for the passion that they display on this web thread.  Though I admit that I'm often irritated at the way they treat you, there's another part of me that feels for them because they don't know you the way others like Stella, Beach, Loco, and McWay, and I do.  God, I know that the very fact that they come here to argue your existence is some sort of effort to know you, whether it be positive or not.  That alone, Lord, makes me smile because I know that you are chipping away at their hardened spirits.  Only you know all that they have seen, heard, and experienced in their lifetime, so only you know what it will take to bring them to a closer relationship.  Lord, please use those of us who know you as tools of witness to your existence.  But more than your existence, Father, use us to present your graciousness and passion to know all of your children even the ones that store up the most hatred for you.  I ask that you would soften their hearts, Lord, and embrace them as you have done so many times for me and the others who know you.  Help Deicide to see the very wonders of biology in your creation, Lord.  Help him to understand that your philosophy is simply to love and cherish him as your own.  And help him to discern that he is, indeed, free to think as he wants, and that, though he may choose not to love you, you will love him all the same.  As much as you love me.  God, you are so AWESOME!!! Thank you for my fellow followers like STella, who are totally on fire for bringing others to you in the most gracious way possible.  I'm so amazed at how you use us, Lord.  I thank you for the persistence and knowledge that Loco and McWay bring to this ever-going conversation.  Thank you for Beach's discerning heart, Lord.  More than anything, Father, I thank you for being Lord over my life and refusing to let go even when I tried to hide from you.  I love you with all of my heart and soul, God.  And it is with total brokenness that I come to lay all these things at your feet, Lord, and ask all these things in the name of your blessed Son, Christ Jesus.....Amen

God bless you, Deicide.  

Amen.  Thanks for this Ro I prayed w/you.  You are a wonderful pray-er and person(crying-eye happy smiley)

How about youy just pray to give me your big, black bodybuilding genetics?

hahaha!

HAAAAAAA

Be careful what you ask for, Deicide.  Being big isn't always what it's cracked up to be.  lol

HAHAHAHA!

You must look down on all the puny white people at the gym huh?

lol I'm sure he doesn't

[loco]

I hope you and Stella don't mind me jumping in on the conversation, Deicide.  But, I have to disagree with your statement of your views on marriage not being influenced by your parents.  Almost everything that we become as adults, whether we are exactly like them or are a total 180 from them, is both directly and indirectly tied to the influence of our parents.

This reminds me of the sermon that our pastor gave last Sunday for Father's day.  He talked about how great the influence of a father is.  He gave a wonderful illustration of this point by telling the congregation about one of the missionaries that we support and how he has influenced his children .  This man has only one arm, so naturally the tasks that you and I take for granted are just as easy for him, but just a little more complicated.  The pastor told of how the missionary goes about brushing his teeth:he puts the handle of the toothbrush in his mouth, picks up the toothpaste and squirts it on the brush, puts the toothpaste back down, takes the handle out of his mouth and then brushes.  If you were to watch his children brush their teeth, all four of them follow the same process as their father...even though they have two arms intact and could easily use two hands.  The other account my pastor gave was when he visited the missionary in Africa.  They were all at a  church service and the congregation was at worship, clapping and signing.  My pastor said he looked over at the missionary and say that he was slapping his one arm on his knee in order to "clap" with the congregation.  Then, my past noticed that all 4 of the missionary's children were sitting in the same row with their father.  Guess how they were "clapping"?  Yep, though they had two good hands to clap, they too were slapping one hand on their knee just like their father.  All 4 of them.      I thought that was so neat.  So it's extremely tough to say that what we believe and how we do things is not directly or indirectly tied to the influence of our parents.

Though you've sited plenty of legitimate questions that you'd like answers to before you would come to know Christ, I think the common denominator for all of your doubts is the absence of a personal relationship.  My guess is if you were willing to allow God to influence you like the missionary's children did with him, then you probably wouldn't have the doubts of Christ deity.   

I know it will probably bug you (and others like C-dude), but I just wanted to pray for you, bro. 

Father, I thank you so much for the likes of Deicide and Columbusdude82.  I'm grateful for the passion that they display on this web thread.  Though I admit that I'm often irritated at the way they treat you, there's another part of me that feels for them because they don't know you the way others like Stella, Beach, Loco, and McWay, and I do.  God, I know that the very fact that they come here to argue your existence is some sort of effort to know you, whether it be positive or not.  That alone, Lord, makes me smile because I know that you are chipping away at their hardened spirits.  Only you know all that they have seen, heard, and experienced in their lifetime, so only you know what it will take to bring them to a closer relationship.  Lord, please use those of us who know you as tools of witness to your existence.  But more than your existence, Father, use us to present your graciousness and passion to know all of your children even the ones that store up the most hatred for you.  I ask that you would soften their hearts, Lord, and embrace them as you have done so many times for me and the others who know you.  Help Deicide to see the very wonders of biology in your creation, Lord.  Help him to understand that your philosophy is simply to love and cherish him as your own.  And help him to discern that he is, indeed, free to think as he wants, and that, though he may choose not to love you, you will love him all the same.  As much as you love me.  God, you are so AWESOME!!! Thank you for my fellow followers like STella, who are totally on fire for bringing others to you in the most gracious way possible.  I'm so amazed at how you use us, Lord.  I thank you for the persistence and knowledge that Loco and McWay bring to this ever-going conversation.  Thank you for Beach's discerning heart, Lord.  More than anything, Father, I thank you for being Lord over my life and refusing to let go even when I tried to hide from you.  I love you with all of my heart and soul, God.  And it is with total brokenness that I come to lay all these things at your feet, Lord, and ask all these things in the name of your blessed Son, Christ Jesus.....Amen

God bless you, Deicide.   

Good post, Colossus_500!  You are a good man, and a good bodybuilder too!   

[Deicide]

Good post, Colossus_500!  You are a good man, and a good bodybuilder too!   

Define good bodybuilder. He has (apparently) amazing genetics; undoubtably this has helped him immensely.

I find his claims almost impossible to believe but he is black so...

[Colossus_500]

You must look down on all the puny white people at the gym huh?

HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

not really, especially since there are some pretty big boys in my gym, and of different ethnicities.  big is big, no matter what color it comes it.  lol