Author Topic: Insulin? Risk vs. Reward?!  (Read 21496 times)

io856

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Re: Insulin? Risk vs. Reward?!
« Reply #100 on: November 14, 2008, 04:32:34 PM »
Well, I've been in this game a while. Been training since I was 13 years old. I know guys personally, and I see them on the forums ..late 20's, whining that they no longer produce decent test levels, need to go on HRT for life.
You know what that is right?

They are so used to being on steroids that they don't like their normal physiological levels of testosterone. So they go on "hrt" to be sure they are a little higher than average. Its just a way of always being "on".

As Van_Bilderass often says Did they test their natural levels before a they started steroids? For most cases, no.

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Re: Insulin? Risk vs. Reward?!
« Reply #101 on: November 14, 2008, 04:33:23 PM »
You know what that is right?

They are so used to being on steroids that they don't like their normal physiological levels of testosterone. So they go on "hrt" to be sure they are a little higher than average. Its just a way of always being "on".
hey, that makes sense...

and come to think of it i dont recall ever seeing any studies or science to prove that endogenous proction of testopsterone is ever shut off completely



and since we KNOW that thyroid function and other hormones all came right back to normal even afetr long term use of exogenous homrones..   

hmm..
makes sense

The ChemistV2

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Re: Insulin? Risk vs. Reward?!
« Reply #102 on: November 14, 2008, 04:34:35 PM »
not true. in fact only one hormone works that way and its testosterone.
Not true. Measure anyone's thyroid levels after thet've been on a while and they go off. They can be suppressed for quite a while.

io856

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Re: Insulin? Risk vs. Reward?!
« Reply #103 on: November 14, 2008, 04:35:31 PM »
Not true. Measure anyone's thyroid levels after thet've been on a while and they go off. They can be suppressed for quite a while.
If I recall correctly, normal T3/T4 protocols utilise tapering of dosages before coming off them

Emmortal

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Re: Insulin? Risk vs. Reward?!
« Reply #104 on: November 14, 2008, 04:36:16 PM »
Not true. Measure anyone's thyroid levels after thet've been on a while and they go off. They can be suppressed for quite a while.

Well there have been studies showing people on thyroid meds for decades coming off and the thyroid bounces back in a few months.

The ChemistV2

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Re: Insulin? Risk vs. Reward?!
« Reply #105 on: November 14, 2008, 04:37:13 PM »
If I recall correctly, normal T3/T4 protocols utilise tapering of dosages before coming off them
True, but T-bombz said only testosterone suppresses your own output and I'm saying thyoid drugs also are supressive.

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Re: Insulin? Risk vs. Reward?!
« Reply #106 on: November 14, 2008, 04:37:30 PM »
Not true. Measure anyone's thyroid levels after thet've been on a while and they go off. They can be suppressed for quite a while.
no dude ..i dont have time to go dig up a link for you at the moment but do a search on this one... youll see that regardless of time supressed, thyroid levels always come back to normal, and within the same amoutnt of time regardless of term of exogenous usse, in all people who use exogenous thyroid...     all the studies done on this show this...

btu for now i must go shower im off for some fun

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Re: Insulin? Risk vs. Reward?!
« Reply #107 on: November 14, 2008, 04:38:22 PM »
True, but T-bombz said only testosterone suppresses your own output and I'm saying thyoid drugs also are supressive.
no no no what i said was it only effectsit after you come off

of course they all supress during useage

but ive gotta run..

but this is what i was saying..

==
Well there have been studies showing people on thyroid meds for decades coming off and the thyroid bounces back in a few months.

Vet

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Re: Insulin? Risk vs. Reward?!
« Reply #108 on: November 14, 2008, 04:38:54 PM »
Well, I respect your opinion on this, so I'll ask you this. Do you feel if a non-diabetic were to chronically take large doses of insulin for a long period of time and then stopped, there would be no effect on their own natural insulin production?

Yes, there probably would be a down regulation of the beta cells within the body and change in insulin response. This happens with virtually all hormones in the body---from estrogen, to progesterone (think about women having to take fertility drugs after long term LOW doses of those hormones in birth control pills) to testosterone production to thyroid to cortisol for people who are on long term prednisone therapy.  The body by and large makes what it needs.   No more, no less.   Excess (or lack of) causes problems over time.

   What I'd expect them to see is short term hyperglycemia after ingestion of a simple carbohydrate meal.   The thing is I'm not sure of anyone who has done this---becauseit would require taking enough insulin to stop normal production---and not enough to induce iatrogenic diabetes from excessive cortisol (a cushings like syndrome) production due to chronic hypoglycemia.  


It'd take a very carefully designed experimental protocol to induce this in a nondiabetic.   One I don't see being done to prove it.  

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Re: Insulin? Risk vs. Reward?!
« Reply #109 on: November 14, 2008, 04:41:08 PM »
Well there have been studies showing people on thyroid meds for decades coming off and the thyroid bounces back in a few months.


Yes, in a few months.  Its not the day after.  There is still suppression and a time frame that the body has to recover from.

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Re: Insulin? Risk vs. Reward?!
« Reply #110 on: November 14, 2008, 04:43:48 PM »

Yes, in a few months.  Its not the day after.  There is still suppression and a time frame that the body has to recover from.

Yea, which obviously there's going to be a time in which you're going to have some issues with low thyroid levels during that recovery period.

Back to insulin.  Most slin protocols have you doing slin 4 weeks at a time, then coming off for 4 weeks to avoid long term natural suppression.  Do you think, knowing what you know about how the pancreas works, that this is a viable protocol or are you still going to run into long term problems?

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Re: Insulin? Risk vs. Reward?!
« Reply #111 on: November 14, 2008, 05:25:21 PM »
its going to be more likely to induce hypyglycemia, which, under specific conditions will result in increased amino acid uptake and GH release.  The thing is you have to time everything absolutely right.  There are too many variables involved for me to think that this is something that could be reliably reproduced without negative consequences.   The counterregulatory hormone release (cortisol, epinephrine, etc) that the body has to be considered. 

You worded my hypothesis exactly......but as I thought, it's nothing that can be exacted, just like Insulin.

Those pesky counterregulatory mechanisms always fuck things up for bodybuilders hoping to get an edge.



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Vet

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Re: Insulin? Risk vs. Reward?!
« Reply #112 on: November 14, 2008, 08:29:12 PM »
Yea, which obviously there's going to be a time in which you're going to have some issues with low thyroid levels during that recovery period.

Back to insulin.  Most slin protocols have you doing slin 4 weeks at a time, then coming off for 4 weeks to avoid long term natural suppression.  Do you think, knowing what you know about how the pancreas works, that this is a viable protocol or are you still going to run into long term problems?

I think there are still too many variables to give an exact answer that holds true for everyone-genetic predisposition for diabetes and what their blood glucose levels were prior to starting the insulin are two huge ones.   Another is how much weight are they gaining and how rapidly.  Sudden rapid weight gain can affect insulin sensitivity--I know this from my own experiences.     

I'd like to see the blood glucose levels and A1C' and Fructosamines of the individuals following those protocols.   I have to wonder if there is or isn't a change from baseline.  If you were to do this and see substantial changes from baseline, I'd be very very cautious becuase you are seeing subclinical---ie the person isnt' noticing--changes within their body that indicate a major physiological response.   If there are absolutely no changes, then I have to wonder if the insulin was doing anything at all.  Instead the body is keeping things in check.     


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Re: Insulin? Risk vs. Reward?!
« Reply #113 on: November 14, 2008, 09:52:57 PM »
This is pretty close to what I do as well.  I can put down around 300-400gs of carbs around my workout with Slin and have not put any fat on whatsoever.

studies show this can be done without slin.  :-\
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Re: Insulin? Risk vs. Reward?!
« Reply #114 on: November 14, 2008, 10:10:58 PM »
I don't.

 The ones I feel sorry for are the ones who cannot fathom how a person taking all those drugs won't have an olympia level physique.  They miss the point completely that different people respond differently to drugs of all types, anabolics included.  They also miss the point of how important mindset, training, and diet are.   

vet, can you show me any study to back this claim?

i have read quite a few papers on anabolics and i have never came across a non responder to gear - everyone responds via growth. Maybe not Ronnie coleman size growth, but growth nontheless.

i agree diet, training are a big part, and people can respond differently in terms of side effects.
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abc123

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Re: Insulin? Risk vs. Reward?!
« Reply #115 on: November 15, 2008, 02:15:42 AM »
studies show this can be done without slin.  :-\

True, but using Humalog preworkout, you make sure the carbs go where they are supposed to go.  The muscles I work are so jammed packed with glycogen it's amazing.

Personally, after experimenting with insulin for a while, I don't think you really get a huge benefit unless you combine it with GH, T3 and Anabolics.  The synergy between those drugs is amazing.  That being said, Humalog preworkout does work extremely well in between cycles along with some clen to keep you in an anabolic state.

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Re: Insulin? Risk vs. Reward?!
« Reply #116 on: November 15, 2008, 07:42:56 AM »
vet, can you show me any study to back this claim?

i have read quite a few papers on anabolics and i have never came across a non responder to gear - everyone responds via growth. Maybe not Ronnie coleman size growth, but growth nontheless.

i agree diet, training are a big part, and people can respond differently in terms of side effects.

You know, I can't, not in terms of muscle growth.  I'm not sure if this is something thats been investigated though----remember up until a couple of years ago in the science world anabolic steroids didn't enhance muscle growth. 

There are some reports of nadrolone being administered to and having no effect in kidney failure and HIV patients, but those individuals obviously have some serious health problems. 

I guess I'm thinking of the gym rat that seems to hang around so many larger commercial gyms.  You talk to them and they are taking everything including the kitchen sink drug wise, yet they still look like exercise is merely a fantasy.  They aren't morbidly fat, they just don't seem to see anything from their work.   I can think of two individuals I know personally like that.    One, I think has to have the absolute fastest metabolism I've ever seen in a human being and I've wondered if he'd stop the drugs and simply eat alot more if he'd actually gain some weight.  He's also one of those twigs who's scared of the slightest bit of bodyfat, so as soon as his "ripped abs"  ::) blure up a bit, he's cutting trying to get them back.   I know for a fact he's taken upwards of 750 mg of test a week with 400 mg eq and I dont' think he gained any measurable weight or strength. 


The other person I'm thinking of is someone who used to try to hang with us powerlifters when I lived in NYC.  He wanted to get big.  He never did.    He had that perpetual potgut, skinny arms, skinny legs, almost looked cushinoid.   I also know he was taking various anabolic substances.   I swear I'll crap myself the day he's able to bench press 275.  It just seemed like it wouldn't happen with him.  In his case he ate probably the cleanest diet i've ever seen a person eat perpetually.   He took in adequate protein, he trained hard.  He just never grew the year and a half we went to the same gym.   He sure didn't gain any strength.   


I'll have to do a literature search when I get some time and see if I can find a documented "nonresponder".   

One huge factor is quality of the gear that a person is taking in combination with mindset.  I just have a very hard time believing that drug dealers---which is what black market steroid dealers are---are manufacturing overdosed or even half dosed products.   Logic says they are going to make the absolute minum active ingredient in a product with the minimal degree of sterility that will prevent abcesses from every injection.  I also think if people legitimately think that a product is going to cause muscle growth in the average person, they will see some form of increase in size.  A person can literally will strength and size increases if their mindset is correct and they BELIEVE what they are taking or how they are training will increase muscle mass. 

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Re: Insulin? Risk vs. Reward?!
« Reply #117 on: November 15, 2008, 07:46:24 AM »
True, but using Humalog preworkout, you make sure the carbs go where they are supposed to go.  The muscles I work are so jammed packed with glycogen it's amazing.

And how does it do this?   Exogenous insulin activates the same receptors endogenous insulin does, there isnt some mystery receptor that only exogenous insulin responds too.


***I'm not trying to give you shit, I'm just trying to understand what you are saying in your post.  I think the way I'm reading it is different than what you were trying to say**** 

Fatpanda

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Re: Insulin? Risk vs. Reward?!
« Reply #118 on: November 15, 2008, 08:05:44 AM »

One huge factor is quality of the gear that a person is taking in combination with mindset.  I just have a very hard time believing that drug dealers---which is what black market steroid dealers are---are manufacturing overdosed or even half dosed products.   Logic says they are going to make the absolute minum active ingredient in a product with the minimal degree of sterility that will prevent abcesses from every injection.  I also think if people legitimately think that a product is going to cause muscle growth in the average person, they will see some form of increase in size.  A person can literally will strength and size increases if their mindset is correct and they BELIEVE what they are taking or how they are training will increase muscle mass. 

i agree completely with this.

i know what you mean regarding the gym rats that never get bigger or stronger - however i believe that if they are not responding it is because of :

a) fake or underdosed gear
b) reached genetic limit in size achievable on that gear dosage, or other hormones are fighting back to return to homeostasis, i..e. cortisol etc
c) diet is poor i.e not enough calories, or protein, maybe even too many bad fats, alcohol intake etc
d) training is poor, i.e. not enough volume, and no progressive resistance employed.
e) overtraining/lack of proper recovery i.e. not enough sleep, or to much frequency etc

if these are all adressed properly, even the AXA's and sevatestes of this world would grown to an impressive size, untill eventually b) happens.
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Re: Insulin? Risk vs. Reward?!
« Reply #119 on: November 16, 2008, 02:29:58 AM »
And how does it do this?   Exogenous insulin activates the same receptors endogenous insulin does, there isnt some mystery receptor that only exogenous insulin responds too.


***I'm not trying to give you shit, I'm just trying to understand what you are saying in your post.  I think the way I'm reading it is different than what you were trying to say**** 


It's my fault...I was unclear. I speculate that the blood flow to the muscles while weight training with insulin helps the nutrients go to the muscles rather than elsewhere (fat).  But, I have absolutely zero scientific basis for this belief.  I can only go by the results I get, which are very positive.

BTW, what did you mean earlier when you said you are surprised I don't get a "rebound effect."

Also, how do you explain the placebo effect?  I know it's a medical reality, but I find it fascinating.  What do you think happens within the body?

Vet

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Re: Insulin? Risk vs. Reward?!
« Reply #120 on: November 16, 2008, 06:51:39 AM »
It's my fault...I was unclear. I speculate that the blood flow to the muscles while weight training with insulin helps the nutrients go to the muscles rather than elsewhere (fat).  But, I have absolutely zero scientific basis for this belief.  I can only go by the results I get, which are very positive.

BTW, what did you mean earlier when you said you are surprised I don't get a "rebound effect."

Also, how do you explain the placebo effect?  I know it's a medical reality, but I find it fascinating.  What do you think happens within the body?

Sorry, I missed the rebound effect..... basically this occurs in some individuals when they take in a large quantity of relatively simple carbohydrates over a short period of time.  Basically I was referring to a "sugar low" or "sugar crash"---which may be a term you are more familiar with.   Its also something you described when you talked about not taking insulin but taking in that huge load of carbs. 


What happens in intiially blood glucose levels will go up, then the body responds by secreting insulin, which in some individuals can result in rapid falling blood glucose levels later on---the "crash", which also leads to the secretion of regulatory hormones to stabilize the blood glucose levels.    I'm not sure how to figure in your exogenous insulin administration other than you are a person prone to blood glucose swings (which you've more or less proven with your descriptions of how you felt without exogenous insulin, but to be thorough, you'd have to check fructosamine levels and look at serial blood glucoses to prove it)  and by taking exogenous insulin you don't experience that wide effect becuase your blood sugar doesn't deviate substantially from normal.  You don't go high then drop suddenly.   This may explain the reason you've seen such a positive response to insulin.  It may also be an indication of problems in the future---problems like Type II diabetes because at this time your body can't seem to handle a high carbohydrate load.  Does that makes sense?





Placebo and mindset about lifting weights is a whole other other topic I could harp on for pages and pages.  I see it all the time in the veterinary field---in order for a treatement to work, an owner has to believe it will work for their pet.  This carries over into human medicine too and especially in teh traditional Chinese and Herbal medicine modalities.  Cancer patients are prime examples.  I've seen people with end stage cancer literally will themselves back to life and on with their lives.  Why?  because they decided they could do it.   At the same time, I've seen cancer just rip through a person and within weeks of being diagnosed, they are dead.  Why?  I think because that person didn't get up and go back to work, instead they layed in bed, they felt sorry for themselves, and ultimately, they let the cancer beat them.  The same holds true with weight training.  I'm a powerlifter.   I have to decide I'm going to squat 800+ lbs or bench 500+ lbs or its never going to happen.  That mental game is why you can see some individuals consistantly lift 20-40 lb PRs (I'm one of those individuals) on the platform, but not be able to do it in the gym until the day of the meet.  I also see it with one of my training partners.  He's been beat up through his life.  He'll come into the gym bitching and moaning most days about aches and pains.  If my wife--a smallish woman---gives him crap, the aches and pains suddenly disappear and he starts training hard.  He's strong when he gets that mindset.  He's not worth a shit until she gets in his face.  Why? His mindset isn't right.   

All of this ties in in my mind in bodybuilders taking drugs.  Bodybuilding is a combination of weight training, evaluation of appearance, and a diet that in my mind can at times take an iron will to get through to get to even close to competitive conditioning.  Yet you see so many people posting on message boards like this one looking for a shortcut.   I'm not talking about the national level competitor looking for that last little bit of an edge, I'm talking more about the noncompetitive lifter who wants to "gain a little mass" or "get swole" or "get cut".  These individuals will more than likely gain or lose 5 lbs if they'd just eat right and go to the gym.  They don't need any magical pill to make them do it, yet because of Americas pill popping society, they take them.  This is why the supplement industry has made itself a multibillion dollar industry and its why blackmarket underground labs are able to still make a fortune.   Its also why certian people claim 20 lb gains from cell tech in 3 weeks and/or underground underdosed, mislabeled anabolics. 

If a person decides they want to do something, and they want to do it bad enough, they can literally will their body to do what their brain wants.  It just takes the right mindset. 

Van_Bilderass

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Re: Insulin? Risk vs. Reward?!
« Reply #121 on: November 16, 2008, 07:21:41 AM »
One huge factor is quality of the gear that a person is taking in combination with mindset.  I just have a very hard time believing that drug dealers---which is what black market steroid dealers are---are manufacturing overdosed or even half dosed products.   Logic says they are going to make the absolute minum active ingredient in a product with the minimal degree of sterility that will prevent abcesses from every injection. 

The Chinese hormone powders were so cheap that I don't doubt they sometimes overdosed their products. Customs have ordered products analyzed and this is what they showed - massively overdosed in some instances. Like 800mg/ml EQ from IP tested by Canadian customs IIRC. Many of them have insane benzyl alcohol content to keep it from crashing (hormone coming out of solution).

See this for example:
http://www.bodyofscience.com/labreports/images/lj_cuta7owpyspzq.doc

Quote
Then came the tests on Winstrol[from vipershop.org, Spain], the trade name for stanazolol, the powerful steroid linked to slugger Rafael Palmeiro
The label on the bottle, shipped from Madrid, said each pill was 50 milligrams. Ullmann's team found they were 91 milligrams each, a concentration of steroids 82 percent higher than the amount on the label.

Of course, many were lower than advertised and some contained toxic heavy metals but overdosing has occurred.

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Re: Insulin? Risk vs. Reward?!
« Reply #122 on: November 16, 2008, 12:34:41 PM »
The Chinese hormone powders were so cheap that I don't doubt they sometimes overdosed their products. Customs have ordered products analyzed and this is what they showed - massively overdosed in some instances. Like 800mg/ml EQ from IP tested by Canadian customs IIRC. Many of them have insane benzyl alcohol content to keep it from crashing (hormone coming out of solution).

See this for example:
http://www.bodyofscience.com/labreports/images/lj_cuta7owpyspzq.doc

Of course, many were lower than advertised and some contained toxic heavy metals but overdosing has occurred.

its gonna be more profitable in the long run to sell overdosed gear than other kinds of gear,,, THAT is business 101.. ask any body selling anything... the better the product, with equal cost,  the higher the demand.. more sales = more money..

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Re: Insulin? Risk vs. Reward?!
« Reply #123 on: November 17, 2008, 03:46:40 AM »
its gonna be more profitable in the long run to sell overdosed gear than other kinds of gear,,, THAT is business 101.. ask any body selling anything... the better the product, with equal cost,  the higher the demand.. more sales = more money..

I know you're a newb and haven't been around the game much, but you need to realize something...
since the 90's, EVER major underground lab has worked on the principle you just outlined, they start off with wayyy overdosed, crazy hyped products (ie. 320mg test e being sold as 200mg test e) within a few months word of mouth gets around and they establish themselves, then the person running the lab starts to pull back on the leash. Slowly, all of a sudden that crazy test E from X labs that was overdosed to 320mg/cc becomes 120mg/cc .. and it keeps sliding down from there..

what do you think happened to British Dragon? and other great labs from the past? exact same story.

Van_Bilderass

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Re: Insulin? Risk vs. Reward?!
« Reply #124 on: November 17, 2008, 09:40:05 AM »
And overdosing is as bad as underdosing, pretty much.