Gay adoption?

[loco]

I mean you no disrespect, but you seem to want to justify homosexuality.  You say it is a sin, but I sense that you are somewhat defending the act.  As I stated in the previous post, sin is sin.  It does not matter if it homosexuality or lying.  You cannot chose to defend one sin and ignore others.  Granted, Christians need to keep this in mind too (as you have alluded to).

There are two times that God allows for divorce.  If a person commits adultery, then the spouse is free to seek a divorce.  Also, if a Christian is married to a Non-Christians, and the Non-Christian wants to divorce, it is permissible.

Not at all.  Please read my post above.  Homosexuality is a sin, and it is clearly condemned by God in the Bible.

[MCWAY]

I mean you no disrespect, but you seem to want to justify homosexuality.  You say it is a sin, but I sense that you are somewhat defending the act.  As I stated in the previous post, sin is sin.  It does not matter if it homosexuality or lying.  You cannot chose to defend one sin and ignore others.  Granted, Christians need to keep this in mind too (as you have alluded to).

There are two times that God allows for divorce.  If a person commits adultery, then the spouse is free to seek a divorce.  Also, if a Christian is married to a Non-Christians, and the Non-Christian wants to divorce, it is permissible.

Also keep in mind that the divorce laws were made “because of the hardness of your hearts”, according to Christ. One of the reasons that Israel was forbidden to intermarry with their neighbors is because of the way those neighbors treated their women.

The men of Israel picked up those bad habits and frivolously divorced their wives, leaving them destitute and out in the cold (figuratively speaking; this was the Ancient Near East).

The divorce certificate stated that the woman’s character and conduct was not an issue and she could find a decent husband and re-marry.

God does hate divorce; He also hates the reasons for divorce, among them namely (as stated in the book of Malachi) the men dealing treacherously with their wives.

[loco]

Also keep in mind that the divorce laws were made “because of the hardness of your hearts”, according to Christ. One of the reasons that Israel was forbidden to intermarry with their neighbors is because of the way those neighbors treated their women.

The men of Israel picked up those bad habits and frivolously divorced their wives, leaving them destitute and out in the cold (figuratively speaking; this was the Ancient Near East).

The divorce certificate stated that the woman’s character and conduct was not an issue and she could find a decent husband and re-marry.

God does hate divorce; He also hates the reasons for divorce, among them namely (as stated in the book of Malachi) the men dealing treacherously with their wives.

Maybe we should start a "The Bible on Divorce" thread.   

[fitt@40]

Maybe we should start a "The Bible on Divorce" thread.   

That might be a Good idea!

[fitt@40]

Also keep in mind that the divorce laws were made “because of the hardness of your hearts”, according to Christ. One of the reasons that Israel was forbidden to intermarry with their neighbors is because of the way those neighbors treated their women.

The men of Israel picked up those bad habits and frivolously divorced their wives, leaving them destitute and out in the cold (figuratively speaking; this was the Ancient Near East).

The divorce certificate stated that the woman’s character and conduct was not an issue and she could find a decent husband and re-marry.

God does hate divorce; He also hates the reasons for divorce, among them namely (as stated in the book of Malachi) the men dealing treacherously with their wives.

Good Post!  I am vaguely aware on some of this; you have given me something to research. 

[loco]

If you believe that homosexuality is sinful, do you think that someone can be born gay as a result of God's hand?  I have stated in this thread (or maybe another one) that I sin can be past from our ancestors.
Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me (EX 20:4-6).

It would appear that Christians spend a lot of time chastising gays.  Sin is sin, whether it be lying, stealing, adultery, fornication or homosexuality.  I would imagine gays are pursued more because there is a "gay movement" to say that it is not sinful.  Have you ever heard of liars and thieves suggesting that their acts are not sinful? 

I think that our disagreement or misunderstanding lies within the definition of homosexuality.  What is the definition of homosexuality according to the Bible?  It does not seem very clear to me.  Is a homosexual only a person who has lustful thoughts for or sexual intercourse with somebody of the same gender?  If that's the case, then somebody who abstains from these two is not a homosexual even if that person has a "genetic" attraction for the same gender.

Maybe this is a bad analogy, but take gluttony for example.  Gluttony is clearly condemned in the Bible, but eating food, which may lead to gluttony, is not condemned.  Our desire and love for, and our attraction to food is not condemned either, but gluttony is condemned.  It seems to me that it might be the same with homosexuality, that lustful thoughts and sexual intercourse with the same gender is considered homosexual, and homosexuality is clearly condemned.  But simply having a "genetic" attraction to somebody of the same gender is not homosexuality and it's not a sin.  That's what it looks like to me.  I am not saying that's the way it is in the Bible.

I do agree with you that IF being attracted to the same gender is genetic, and as of today we do not have proof that it is, it would be a very difficult thing even for a "Christian" to live with, and even if that person was "saved" by grace, through faith in Jesus Christ.  Therefore, in my opinion and from what I see in the Bible, it would be a result of sins from past generations, like you said.

[fitt@40]

I think that our disagreement or misunderstanding lies within the definition of homosexuality.  What is the definition of homosexuality according to the Bible?  It does not seem very clear to me.  Is a homosexual only a person who has lustful thoughts for or sexual intercourse with somebody of the same gender?  If that's the case, then somebody who abstains from these two is not a homosexual even if that person has a "genetic" attraction for the same gender.

Maybe this is a bad analogy, but take gluttony for example.  Gluttony is clearly condemned in the Bible, but eating food, which may lead to gluttony, is not condemned.  Our desire and love for, and our attraction to food is not condemned either, but gluttony is condemned.  It seems to me that it might be the same with homosexuality, that lustful thoughts and sexual intercourse with the same gender is considered homosexual, and homosexuality is clearly condemned.  But simply having a "genetic" attraction to somebody of the same gender is not homosexuality and it's not a sin.  That's what it looks like to me.  I am not saying that's the way it is in the Bible.

I do agree with you that IF being attracted to the same gender is genetic, and as of today we do not have proof that it is, it would be a very difficult thing even for a "Christian" to live with, and even if that person was "saved" by grace, through faith in Jesus Christ.  Therefore, in my opinion and from what I see in the Bible, it would be a result of sins from past generations, like you said.

We know that according to God's Word, if a man commits adultery in his heart, he is an adulator.  The same applies to homosexuality.  God tells us that of all the sins we commit, sexual immorality is the only one that is committed against the temple (body). 

Let me give you an analogy:
Imagine that you are taking your small child to a day care center.  You are greeted by a man who says he is going to be the primary cartaker for your child.  He also says that he believes he was born with pedophile tendencies, but he does not act on them.  He goes on to say that he has attraction for little kids, but will not act on it.  Would you leave your child with him?

[big L dawg]

it never ceases to amaze me how screwed up you guys are.

[tonymctones]

it never ceases to amaze me how screwed up you guys are.

plz address some of my comments

[loco]

We know that according to God's Word, if a man commits adultery in his heart, he is an adulator.  The same applies to homosexuality.  God tells us that of all the sins we commit, sexual immorality is the only one that is committed against the temple (body). 

Let me give you an analogy:
Imagine that you are taking your small child to a day care center.  You are greeted by a man who says he is going to be the primary cartaker for your child.  He also says that he believes he was born with pedophile tendencies, but he does not act on them.  He goes on to say that he has attraction for little kids, but will not act on it.  Would you leave your child with him?

I agree that if a man commits homosexuality in his heart, he is a homosexual, just like if a man commits adultery in his heart he is an adulterer.  But that is not what I'm talking about. 

The man who commits adultery in his heart is not guilty just because he has a genetic attraction to women.  He is guilty because he committed adultery in his heart.  Likewise, the man who commits homosexuality in his heart is not guilty just because he has a "genetic" attraction to men.  He is guilty because he has committed homosexuality in his heart.

Again, what is the Biblical definition of homosexuality?  It seems to me that is is only lusting for somebody of the same gender or actually having sex with somebody of the same gender, but not merely having a genetic attraction to the same gender.

As for the pedophile analogy, if a man who knows he has pedophile tendencies and wants to be right with God and with the law, he must stay far away from children.

Likewise, a man who knows that he has a "natural" attraction for other men, yet wants to be right with the God of the Bible, first he has to repent and have faith in Jesus Christ, and then he must stay far away from other homosexual men.  It's like a recovering alcoholic who wants to quit for good.  He must stay away from his drinking buddies and from alcohol all together.

Please keep in mind that for the sake of our discussion, my questions and comments about this subject are made only assuming that homosexuality is genetic, which it is not as of today and we have no proof that it is.

[fitt@40]

The man who commits adultery in his heart is not guilty just because he has a genetic attraction to women.  He is guilty because he committed adultery in his heart.  Likewise, the man who commits homosexuality in his heart is not guilty just because he has a "genetic" attraction to men.  He is guilty because he has committed homosexuality in his heart.
Again, what is the Biblical definition of homosexuality?  It seems to me that is is only lusting for somebody of the same gender or actually having sex with somebody of the same gender, but not merely having a genetic attraction to the same gender.

As for the pedophile analogy, if a man who knows he has pedophile tendencies and wants to be right with God and with the law, he must stay far away from children.[/b][/i]
Likewise, a man who knows that he has a "natural" attraction for other men, yet wants to be right with the God of the Bible, first he has to repent and have faith in Jesus Christ, and then he must stay far away from other homosexual men.  It's like a recovering alcoholic who wants to quit for good.  He must stay away from his drinking buddies and from alcohol all together.

Please keep in mind that for the sake of our discussion, my questions and comments about this subject are made only assuming that homosexuality is genetic, which it is not as of today and we have no proof that it is.

There is nothing sinful about a man being attracted to a woman, from a "genetic" perspective.  God calls this natural because that is how he designed us.   This is also why it is sinful to even be "genetically" attracted to the same sex.  Homosexuality, whether it be mental, physical or genetics, is of the enemy of God.  His Word has made that abundantly clear.

The Bible's definition of homosexuality:  Any attraction to the same sex, whether it be physical, mental or genetics.  How did I come to this conclusion?  As you have pointed out, it is pretty clear that God says not to have a physical or mental relationship (sexual) with someone of the same sex.  As I have asked before, if He is this opposed to homosexuality, would he create someone to be gay?  I have also said that I do believe that there are those who are born gay.  However, this is a result of sin. 

The same principle applies to the pedophile analogy.  If a pedophile wants to be right with God, it is not that he must stay away from children.  He must repent and be delivered.  This removes any mental desires or genetic predispositions.  Doctors tell patients that they cannot be cured of alcoholism or sexually deviant behavior.  They may not be able to be cured by man, but do not doubt for a moment that our God can cure them.  This is the gist of what I am trying to get you to see.  God can fix any sin if we ask Him to.  Actually there are a couple of sins that cannot be forgiven, but I wish not to go down that road.  Suffice it to say that homosexuality is not one of them.

[loco]

There is nothing sinful about a man being attracted to a woman, from a "genetic" perspective.  God calls this natural because that is how he designed us.   This is also why it is sinful to even be "genetically" attracted to the same sex.  Homosexuality, whether it be mental, physical or genetics, is of the enemy of God.  His Word has made that abundantly clear.

The Bible's definition of homosexuality:  Any attraction to the same sex, whether it be physical, mental or genetics.  How did I come to this conclusion?  As you have pointed out, it is pretty clear that God says not to have a physical or mental relationship (sexual) with someone of the same sex.  As I have asked before, if He is this opposed to homosexuality, would he create someone to be gay?  I have also said that I do believe that there are those who are born gay.  However, this is a result of sin. 

The same principle applies to the pedophile analogy.  If a pedophile wants to be right with God, it is not that he must stay away from children.  He must repent and be delivered.  This removes any mental desires or genetic predispositions.  Doctors tell patients that they cannot be cured of alcoholism or sexually deviant behavior.  They may not be able to be cured by man, but do not doubt for a moment that our God can cure them.  This is the gist of what I am trying to get you to see.  God can fix any sin if we ask Him to.  Actually there are a couple of sins that cannot be forgiven, but I wish not to go down that road.  Suffice it to say that homosexuality is not one of them.

Well, none of this matters if homosexuality is not genetic.  Like I said, as of today we have no definite scientific proof that it is.  My general argument was that even if it is genetic, lusting after somebody of the same gender or having sex with somebody of the same gender is still a sin in God's eyes according to the Bible.

You are right, and I agree with you that doctors tell some patients that they cannot be cured from alcoholism.  And there are true stories of some of those same patients being cured anyway after putting their faith in Jesus Christ.  That is actually how Alcoholics Anonymous(AA) and all other 12 step programs got started. 

I also agree with you that Jesus has the power to change any person, even those who may have been born with an attraction to people of the same sex, to the point where that attraction just goes away forever.

More on AA:

Carl Gustav Jung (26 July 1875 – 6 June 1961) was a Swiss psychiatrist, an influential thinker and the founder of Analytical psychology. Jung's approach to psychology has been influential in the field of depth psychology and in countercultural movements across the globe.

Spirituality as a cure for alcoholism

Jung recommended spirituality as a cure for alcoholism and he is considered to have had an indirect role in establishing Alcoholics Anonymous.[42] Jung's influence can sometimes be found in more unexpected quarters. For example, Jung once treated an American patient (Rowland Hazard III), suffering from chronic alcoholism. After working with the patient for some time and achieving no significant progress, Jung told the man that his alcoholic condition was near to hopeless, save only the possibility of a spiritual experience. Jung noted that occasionally such experiences had been known to reform alcoholics where all else had failed.

Rowland took Jung's advice seriously and set about seeking a personal spiritual experience. He returned home to the United States and joined a Christian evangelical Re-Armament movement known as the Oxford Group. He also told other alcoholics what Jung had told him about the importance of a spiritual experience. One of the alcoholics he told was Ebby Thacher, a long-time friend and drinking buddy of Bill Wilson, later co-founder of Alcoholics Anonymous (AA). Thacher told Wilson about Jung's ideas. Wilson, who was finding it impossible to maintain sobriety, was impressed and sought out his own spiritual experience. The influence of Jung thus indirectly found its way into the formation of Alcoholics Anonymous, the original twelve-step program, and from there into the whole twelve-step recovery movement, although AA as a whole is not Jungian and Jung had no role in the formation of that approach or the twelve steps.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Jung#Spirituality_as_a_cure_for_alcoholism

[big L dawg]

plz address some of my comments

Why?you guys completely highjacked the thread.and turned it into a chance to spew your dogma.

[tonymctones]

Why?you guys completely highjacked the thread.and turned it into a chance to spew your dogma.

please show me where i was spewing dogma, i think you have me confused L. dawg

[OzmO]

Sometimes discussions take turns and branch off in different directions. 

It's also hard to have a debate or discussion on religion with out dogma of some sort.

[fitt@40]

Why?you guys completely highjacked the thread.and turned it into a chance to spew your dogma.

please show me where i was spewing dogma, i think you have me confused L. dawg
quote]

I think may have been meant for me.  My apologies for taking this somewhat off topic, but Loco had some interesting questions and comments. 

[Eisenherz]

What world are you from again fit?

Is it Nibiru or the Plaeides?

[fitt@40]

What world are you from again fit?

Is it Nibiru or the Plaeides?

Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.  For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world (1 John 2: 15-16) .

I understand that you are asking out of humor or possibly to be insulting.  I provided the Scripture for those who may truly be interested in the subject.  In any event, may God Bless you.

[Alex23]

I'm not going to read 4 pages of shit as I pretty know much where this went but here's what the King of Wisdom (23) has to say:

1- Gay men are better suited emotionally to provide attention and affection than many "normal" parents.
2- Are in 99% of the cases financially more capable.
3- Are better cultured in 99% of the cases.
4- By experience, their sexual choice does not influence the children's, in fact creates a more open minded young adult in most cases


More power for them and God loves everyone, don't let the "Church" shit in your brain.

[fitt@40]

I'm not going to read 4 pages of shit as I pretty know much where this went but here's what the King of Wisdom (23) has to say:

1- Gay men are better suited emotionally to provide attention and affection than many "normal" parents.
2- Are in 99% of the cases financially more capable.
3- Are better cultured in 99% of the cases.
4- By experience, their sexual choice does not influence the children's, in fact creates a more open minded young adult in most cases


More power for them and God loves everyone, don't let the "Church" shit in your brain.

LOL...I have been trying to figure out who the "King of Wisdom (23)" is.  Please excuse my Getbig ignorance.  I do not venture past this board very often.  TE

According to your wisdom, what does God have to say about homosexuality?

[Eyeball Chambers]

I don't know, I think a good man and woman are most capable of bringing up a child right. 

I don't see what would be wrong with homosexuals or single people (who are financially stable, and good people) adopting a child though.  In most cases they would probably to do a much better job than the state would/could.

[Eyeball Chambers]

I'm not going to read 4 pages of shit as I pretty know much where this went but here's what the King of Wisdom (23) has to say:

1- Gay men are better suited emotionally to provide attention and affection than many "normal" parents.
2- Are in 99% of the cases financially more capable.
3- Are better cultured in 99% of the cases.
4- By experience, their sexual choice does not influence the children's, in fact creates a more open minded young adult in most cases


More power for them and God loves everyone, don't let the "Church" shit in your brain.

lol good post!

The thing is, regardless of your opinion on homosexuals...  Being raised in an orphanage (or what ever they call it these days) has got to be worse on a persons development than gay parents could possibly be.

[The Renaissance Man]

There are no "God"; If you insist, "God" starts where science stops reaching but advances every day...

Da Vinci
Newton
Einstein
Bloom
....

[Eisenherz]

There are no "God"; If you insist, "God" starts where science stops reaching but advances every day...

Da Vinci
Newton
Einstein
Bloom
....

WTF you talking about?! Learn english, and then come back when someone actauly cares about what you have to say.

[The Renaissance Man]

WTF you talking about?! Learn english, and then come back when someone actauly cares about what you have to say.

The Aryan aspiring/worshipper character bashing on his own "kind"... not surprising, actually a trait of character in most of them.