Interesting Christian views on Waterboarding

[Straw Man]

Still avoiding my questions I see.

What is it that you want Straw Man?  Are you okay with Christians being excluded from a draft and from working on military research and technology or not?

I wasn't aware we had a draft and I've already said that I've never said such things.   

Christians are free to do whatever they want.  Working on military research or technology is not equivalent to torturing a detainee.   Engaging in legal warfare is not torture. 

It's one thing to engage in war and something completely different to torture someone you've detained or captured in war. 

[loco]

I wasn't aware we had a draft and I've already said that I've never said such things.   

I said in an earlier post that IF your country is attacked by another country and IF there is a draft, are you okay with Christians being excluded from A draft and from working on military research and technology or not?

Christians are free to do whatever they want.  Working on military research or technology is not equivalent to torturing a detainee.   Engaging in legal warfare is not torture. 

It's one thing to engage in war and something completely different to torture someone you've detained or captured in war. 

Not according to your Bible quotes and your interpretation.  Do you want Christians in your country to love your enemies or not?  Very simple questions.

[Straw Man]

I said in an earlier post that IF your country is attacked by another country and IF there is a draft, are you okay with Christians being excluded from A draft and from working on military research and technology or not?

IF we had a draft it would not be my choice or decision to exclude anyone based on their regligious beliefs.  I guess they could be a conscioutious objector if that was THEIR choice. 

Whether we had a draft or someone was a volunteer I wouldn't require anyone to torture a prisoner

Not according to your Bible quotes and your interpretation.  Do you want Christians in your country to love your enemies or not?  Very simple questions.

My comments were about the subject of this thread which is torture (yes I think waterboarding is torture)

I don't see how a christian can condone torture but I guess it's easy for some as long as you assume the bible is void in a time of war

[loco]

IF we had a draft it would not be my choice or decision to exclude anyone based on their regligious beliefs.  I guess they could be a conscioutious objector if that was THEIR choice. 

Whether we had a draft or someone was a volunteer I wouldn't require anyone to torture a prisoner

So you are telling me that you would absolutely not complain if all Christians in the US decided to oppose waterbording, capital punishment and war, and from now on would not get involved in anything related to war.  You would not complain at all IF the government one day drafted you to go to war while all Christians in the US stay behind loving and praying for your enemies, correct?

You do know that all Jehovah's Witness in the US and in other countries are by law exempt from being drafted by the military.  When non-US Jehovah's Witness become Naturalized American Citizens, they are the only ones not required by law to swear to take up arms to defend the US.  You are telling me that you would not complain at all if the same became true for all Christians in your country?

My comments were about the subject of this thread which is torture (yes I think waterboarding is torture)

I don't see how a christian can condone torture but I guess it's easy for some as long as you assume the bible is void in a time of war

Why do you care what a Christian condones or does not condone?  Why do you try to impose your morals and values on Christians?  Isn't that the very same thing that you accuse them of doing to you?

[Straw Man]

I would not complain at all if someone opposed war on religious grounds provided they were completely consistent in word and deed.
I'm also sure that there would be no shortage of christian soldiers

This is not about a legal or justified war it's about torturing people.

Torture is illegal, it doesn't work that well, it dehumanizes both parties and it serves as a recruiting tool.   

I find it absurd that Christians feel justified in torturing people and even more absurd that people like McWay declare certain parts of the bible void during a time of war.

[big L dawg]

I would not complain at all if someone opposed war on religious grounds provided they were completely consistent in word and deed.
I'm also sure that there would be no shortage of christian soldiers

This is not about a legal or justified war it's about torturing people.

Torture is illegal, it doesn't work that well, it dehumanized both parties and it serves as a recruiting tool.   

I find it absurd that Christians feel justified in torturing people and even more absurd that people like McWay declare certain parts of the bible void during a time of war.

Haven't you learned anything?Mcway will twist and turn anything until it fit's into his own standards and personal beliefs.

[Straw Man]

Haven't you learned anything?Mcway will twist and turn anything until it fit's into his own standards and personal beliefs.

you're right and there are a few others here who do the same thing. 

[Straw Man]

good post.

thanks

[gcb]

So you are telling me that you would absolutely not complain if all Christians in the US decided to oppose waterbording, capital punishment and war, and from now on would not get involved in anything related to war.  You would not complain at all IF the government one day drafted you to go to war while all Christians in the US stay behind loving and praying for your enemies, correct?

You do know that all Jehovah's Witness in the US and in other countries are by law exempt from being drafted by the military.  When non-US Jehovah's Witness become Naturalized American Citizens, they are the only ones not required by law to swear to take up arms to defend the US.  You are telling me that you would not complain at all if the same became true for all Christians in your country?

Why do you care what a Christian condones or does not condone?  Why do you try to impose your morals and values on Christians?  Isn't that the very same thing that you accuse them of doing to you?

I think the point that Straw Man is trying to make is that you (and the other Christians on this board) really don't seem to have any morals or values but what suits you at the time. And he certainly seems to be right from what I have read in this thread.

[loco]

I think the point that Straw Man is trying to make is that you (and the other Christians on this board) really don't seem to have any morals or values but what suits you at the time. And he certainly seems to be right from what I have read in this thread.

Me?  Why me?  Aren't you being a bit self righteous and judgemental?

What about you, Straw Man and other skeptics on this board?  You want Christians to love your enemies when it comes to waterboarding and capital punishment, but when it comes to defending you and your country, you want Christians to hate and to kill your enemies.  That's what I call having no morals and no values, but what suits you at the time.

By the way, I am a believer in and follower of Jesus Christ, and I do not condone torture in any way, shape or form.

[loco]

Straw Man,
Please list these other methods, and evidence that these other methods do not have any of "these problems" and evidence that they produce "better results."

Still waiting.

What are you talking about, Straw Man?  Are you talking about sleep deprivation, tickling their feet, showering them with kindness until they fall in love with you and tell you what you want to know?  What?

[Straw Man]

Still waiting.

What are you talking about, Straw Man?  Are you talking about sleep deprivation, tickling their feet, showering them with kindness until they fall in love with you and tell you what you want to know?  What?

did you look at the link to the book from the last page.  Here's more from the same person.

btw - you seem to keep ignoring the fact that torturing yields a lot of worthless info and.... it's illegal.   Maybe you just want to torture. 

http://www.time.com/time/arts/article/0,8599,1863053,00.html

[loco]

did you look at the link to the book from the last page.  Here's more from the same person.

Did you read your own link?  Did you read this article?  If so, then why is it so hard for your to simply list these other methods, and evidence that these other methods do not have any of "these problems" and evidence that they produce "better results."?

btw - you seem to keep ignoring the fact that torturing yields a lot of worthless info and.... it's illegal.   Maybe you just want to torture. 

http://www.time.com/time/arts/article/0,8599,1863053,00.html

How so?  Where did this come from?  I ask you a simple question, which you seem to not want to answer, and all of a sudden I want to torture?  Says who?

[Straw Man]

Did you read your own link?  Did you read this article?  If so, then why is it so hard for your to simply list these other methods, and evidence that these other methods do not have any of "these problems" and evidence that they produce "better results."?

I did read the link and I saw the guy talk on TV and I've heard other interogators make similar statements. 

Please clarify your statement above.  What problems do these alternative techniques have?  Why should I take your word or point of view over a guy who's actually been performing these interrogations. 

Also, what are we even debating here.  You've already said you don't condone torture and this thread is about waterboarding which is torture. 

It would seem that we're already in agreement

By the way, I am a believer in and follower of Jesus Christ, and I do not condone torture in any way, shape or form.

[MCWAY]

I would not complain at all if someone opposed war on religious grounds provided they were completely consistent in word and deed.
I'm also sure that there would be no shortage of christian soldiers

This is not about a legal or justified war it's about torturing people.

Torture is illegal, it doesn't work that well, it dehumanizes both parties and it serves as a recruiting tool.   

I find it absurd that Christians feel justified in torturing people and even more absurd that people like McWay declare certain parts of the bible void during a time of war.

First of all, I didn't declare "certain parts of the Bible void" during war. What I called you on was your silly attempt to claim that the words of Jesus means that we're supposed to endanger our people and risk their destruction and death, just because it makes some terrorists feel uncomfy.

Me?  Why me?  Aren't you being a bit self righteous and judgemental?

What about you, Straw Man and other skeptics on this board?  You want Christians to love your enemies when it comes to waterboarding and capital punishment, but when it comes to defending you and your country, you want Christians to hate and to kill your enemies.  That's what I call having no morals and no values, but what suits you at the time.

By the way, I am a believer in and follower of Jesus Christ, and I do not condone torture in any way, shape or form.

This issue is nothing more than a political witchhunt by the left, that want to get even with Bush and his administration.

But, you're dead on the money, Loco. Had KSM or these other guys succeeded and blown up more of our people (or God forbid, something like that happens again), we'll see just how much Straw Man and all these other critics want our gov't to "love our enemies".

[Straw Man]

McWay - feel free to clarify this statement.

These verses are not used or preached to people in a WAR-TIME setting.

[loco]

I did read the link and I saw the guy talk on TV and I've heard other interogators make similar statements. 

Please clarify your statement above.  What problems do these alternative techniques have?  Why should I take your word or point of view over a guy who's actually been performing these interrogations. 

You are the one who needs to carify.  You are the one who said

Let's say we have someone in custody we suspect has knowledge of a future terrorist action.

Do we choose a method such as waterboarding which is illegal, which dehumanizes both parties, is known to produce an abundance of false information, can be used as a recruiting tool, etc...  or do we choose other methods which don't have any of these problems and produce better results?

I simply wanted to know what exactly you were talking about.  I was simply asking you to list these other methods and evidence that they don't have "any of these problems" as you said, and evidence that these other methods produce "better" results, as you said.

But now I finally see that you don't know and that you were simply repeating a statement you heard somebody else make, and you took his word for it without questioning and without looking into what these other methods might be.

Also, what are we even debating here.  You've already said you don't condone torture and this thread is about waterboarding which is torture. 

It would seem that we're already in agreement

My intention was not to debate you.  I was simply asking you questions after I saw you quote the Bible to Christians and impose your interpretation, your morals and values on them, when you constantly complain about Christians doing the same to you. 

You also came across as inconsistent and border line hypocritical by suggesting that Christians should love your enemies when it comes to waterboarding, but that Christians should hate your enemies and should kill your enemies when it comes to defending you and your country. 

You seem to be suggesting that Christians should NOT follow their faith and the Bible in politics, but that they should follow your interpretation of their faith and your interpretation of the Bible in politics when it comes to waterboarding, in other words, whenever it suits you.

[Straw Man]

loco - have you read any of the info in any of the links.

here's my bottom line (which I've said about 5 times now).

Torture is illegal, produces lot's of bad info and actual interrogators have said other methods work better.   If I have time I'll cut and paste the info for you to read since you seem unwilling to click a link and read it for yourself.

Haven't you already written that you don't condone torture in any way, shape or form?

[loco]

loco - have you read any of the info in any of the links.

here's my bottom line (which I've said about 5 times now).

Torture is illegal, produces lot's of bad info and actual interrogators have said other methods work better.   If I

And those other methods are?  And they are not torture because?  And the evidence that they are better is?

have time I'll cut and paste the info for you to read since you seem unwilling to click a link and read it for yourself.

Yes, please!  I clicked the first link when you posted it and it did not work for some reason.  I can't always get to Amazon.com, and I wonder why you even posted it to answer my question.  Am I supposed to order this book and read it to get the answer?  Wouldn't it be easier for you just to tell me, since you read the book already?
 

Haven't you already written that you don't condone torture in any way, shape or form?

Yeah, so?

[Straw Man]

And those other methods are?  And they are not torture because?  And the evidence that they are better is?

Yes, please!  I clicked the first link when you posted it and it did not work for some reason.  I can't always get to Amazon.com, and I wonder why you even posted it to answer my question.  Am I supposed to order this book and read it to get the answer?  Wouldn't it be easier for you just to tell me, since you read the book already?
 
Yeah, so?

yeah, so .....because you say you're against it in any way, shape or form but you keep suggesting that you're also in favor of it.

here's a link that works and you can google and find multiple other links, video's etc... from people who actually do this stuff.

why are we still having this conversation

[loco]

yeah, so .....because you say you're against it in any way, shape or form but you keep suggesting that you're also in favor of it.

How so?

here's a link that works and you can google and find multiple other links, video's etc... from people who actually do this stuff.

Where?

why are we still having this conversation

What's the problem?  Can't I ask questions?

[Straw Man]

here you go:  http://www.time.com/time/arts/article/0,8599,1863053,00.html

I had this links a few posts up so i'm not sure if it's the one that woudln't work for you or not

[fitt@40]

Is it okay for a Christian to use waterboarding and torture?

Would Jesus torture his enemies?

WWJD? What would Jesus do?

Bush, a confessed Christian, orderered torture.

Was that ok?

The reason I'm asking is because I haven't seen any of the well known Christians of this board speak out against the practice of torture.

I'm not gonna draw the conclusion that you actually support torture just yet - but it would be interesting to see your thoughts on the matter.

Why or why not you think the use of torture is ok.

Also, what kind of support you can find for your point of view in your faith.

Waterboarding or any form of torture is sinful and is of satan.  Under no circumstances is it okay for a Christian to participate or condone such behavior.  There is no good that comes from evil. 

For those who will argue that torture can sometimes save the lives of thousands of people, I say what about turning to God.  If we truly believe that He is who He says He is, then we know that He can do anything.  This is where even most Christians fall short.  We say all the time the Christ is the head of my life and that may God Will be done.  But do we really mean that?  Is it more accurate that we are Holy as long as it does not get in the way?  I have read questions on this board like, "what would you do if your child say he was gay?", or "would you torture someone if it meant saving a loved one or thousands of innocent lives?"  Questions like these are really asking, "at what point do you think it is okay to sin?" 

I do not wish to convey that I am Holier than thou or I do not make mistakes.  What I am saying is that we can not make sin a part of how we do business. 

[Straw Man]

Waterboarding or any form of torture is sinful and is of satan.  Under no circumstances is it okay for a Christian to participate or condone such behavior.  There is no good that comes from evil. 

For those who will argue that torture can sometimes save the lives of thousands of people, I say what about turning to God.  If we truly believe that He is who He says He is, then we know that He can do anything.  This is where even most Christians fall short.  We say all the time the Christ is the head of my life and that may God Will be done.  But do we really mean that?  Is it more accurate that we are Holy as long as it does not get in the way?  I have read questions on this board like, "what would you do if your child say he was gay?", or "would you torture someone if it meant saving a loved one or thousands of innocent lives?"  Questions like these are really asking, "at what point do you think it is okay to sin?" 

I do not wish to convey that I am Holier than thou or I do not make mistakes.  What I am saying is that we can not make sin a part of how we do business. 

fit@40 - you seem very consistent in the application of  your beliefs.

I take it you don't agree with McWay that some passages of the bible are simply to be ignored during a time of war?

Since I'm not a christian I'd be curious to see what other vocal christians on this board such as bum or mcway think about your point of view

[Dos Equis]

Waterboarding or any form of torture is sinful and is of satan.  Under no circumstances is it okay for a Christian to participate or condone such behavior.  There is no good that comes from evil. 

For those who will argue that torture can sometimes save the lives of thousands of people, I say what about turning to God.  If we truly believe that He is who He says He is, then we know that He can do anything.  This is where even most Christians fall short.  We say all the time the Christ is the head of my life and that may God Will be done.  But do we really mean that?  Is it more accurate that we are Holy as long as it does not get in the way?  I have read questions on this board like, "what would you do if your child say he was gay?", or "would you torture someone if it meant saving a loved one or thousands of innocent lives?"  Questions like these are really asking, "at what point do you think it is okay to sin?" 

I do not wish to convey that I am Holier than thou or I do not make mistakes.  What I am saying is that we can not make sin a part of how we do business. 

Fitt I think you can say the same thing about war in general.  It's evil.  Definitely a consequence of sin, but it's a necessary evil.  There was war in heaven.  There has been war since the beginning of time.  There will be war till the end of time. 

I don't think Christians have any sort of spiritual obligation to not fight enemies.  If that were the case there would be no Christian soldiers, police officers, etc. 

I really don't see waterboarding as any sort of spiritual issue.  I also don't see a problem with another Christian (like you) who does have a problem with it.  It's a matter of conscience.