Author Topic: Fat Burning vs Cardio (Read 9457 times)

local hero · « **Reply #25 on:** December 10, 2009, 09:03:33 AM »

put a few pics up to proove me wrong if youd like,,, take my hat off to you if you did and you look good..

nolotil · « **Reply #26 on:** December 10, 2009, 09:03:56 AM »

also i think too much high intensity cardio is shit...makes you tired and increases risk of muscle loss when dieting and will force complete opposite adaptation (endurance) compared to what you want as a bodybuilder (hypertrophy). in other words bodybuilders should limit their cardio to fast walks if you chose to do cardio when dieting.

Fatpanda · « **Reply #27 on:** December 10, 2009, 09:05:17 AM »

Here's a quicl general study:

Interference of strength development by simultaneously training for strength and endurance

Summary: The purpose of this study was to determine how individuals adapt to a combination of strength and endurance training as compared to the adaptations produced by either strength or endurance training separately. There were three exercise groups: a strength group (S) that exercised 30–40 min·day–1, 5 days·week–1, an endurance group (E) that exercised 40 min·day–1, 6 days·week–1; and an S and E group that performed the same daily exercise regimens as the S and E groups. After 10 weeks of training, VO2 max increased approx. 25% when measured during bicycle exercise and 20% when measured during treadmill exercise in both E, and S and E groups. No increase in VO2 max was observed in the S group. There was a consistent rate of development of leg-strength by the S group throughout the training, whereas the E group did not show any appreciable gains in strength. The rate of strength improvement by the S and E group was similar to the S group for the first 7 weeks of training, but subsequently leveled off and declined during the 9th and 10th weeks. These findings demonstrate that simultaneously training for S and E will result in a reduced capacity to develop strength, but will not affect the magnitude of increase in VO2 max

nolotil · « **Reply #28 on:** December 10, 2009, 09:08:01 AM »

Quote from: local hero on December 10, 2009, 09:03:33 AM

put a few pics up to proove me wrong if youd like,,, take my hat off to you if you did and you look good..

you totally misunderstand me...im def not an overanalyser and i dont get caught up in details . bodybuilding is very simple and should be inits application.

SamoanIrishman · « **Reply #29 on:** December 10, 2009, 09:10:41 AM »

Quote from: local hero on December 10, 2009, 08:56:10 AM

dont throw a natty rage on me!!!!!
i stopped educating my self on all this crap years ago, dont get too wrapped up in all the new findings, i used to over analise everything, untill i found much of it made no difference at all in real world terms, and much of this upto date stuff changes with the wind.. end of the day you can follow all the best upto date sceintific advice to the letter, but if u dont have the genes youl still look shit

where as if you have decent genes youl grow and get lean as long as you put the hard work in, and thats how it is,,, end of story, dont get angry if you belong to the 1st group and not the latter

It shows...anyone that takes anything serious, will always strive to improve. This is done by education..whether by learning from those who have experience or literature. Educating yourself means you evolve and become less likely to viewed as ignorant or controlled by others. Why do you think Tyrants of times past forbid education to the masses on certain subjects. Vatican, Hitler, Middle East (with regards to their women)..etc...

Grow up.

The Ugly · « **Reply #30 on:** December 10, 2009, 09:16:38 AM »

Quote from: Fatpanda on December 10, 2009, 08:49:24 AM

i'll see if i can find one of the studies that backs this to help this thread. i have it stored somewhere......

Studies are gay.

Fatpanda · « **Reply #31 on:** December 10, 2009, 09:18:32 AM »

here is a good article on this.

http://www.sport-fitness-advisor.com/strength-training.html

has lots of studie links.

local hero · « **Reply #32 on:** December 10, 2009, 09:46:48 AM »

Quote from: SamoanIrishman on December 10, 2009, 09:10:41 AM

It shows...anyone that takes anything serious, will always strive to improve. This is done by education..whether by learning from those who have experience or literature. Educating yourself means you evolve and become less likely to viewed as ignorant or controlled by others. Why do you think Tyrants of times past forbid education to the masses on certain subjects. Vatican, Hitler, Middle East (with regards to their women)..etc...

Grow up.

....... train hard, eat well.... how hard is that, why the need for endless studies, if youve got it youve got it, if youve trained for over a decade and dont know your own body its time to take up a new hobby

SamoanIrishman · « **Reply #33 on:** December 10, 2009, 10:09:46 AM »

Because...like most science, adaptation / evolution occurs which breeds innovation via research, education, study, trial and error to find ways to achieve bigger better results more efficiently. What works for your body one year may not the next...why do you think there are 20 different ways to train the same muscle? Plateaus happen. Why is there constant medical research? Disease evolve, discovered etc...

For example, your local Ravens (Gay) Rugby club sucks because they read the rules of rugby and train like novices..hence failure. They have decide they know ALL there is to know about training, diet, form, strategy because they've been playing for years. What's the difference between all teams with experienced players??? Desire & Passion for constant improvement, mental readiness to accept new ideas, willingness to subdue their ego enough to deploy the new found knowledge.

...just saying that not educating yourself and being so naive and arrogant to think you have it "all figured out" is a primitive and foolish way of thinking regardless of the subject / action / career /hobby you choose to pursue. Its sets you up to fail eventually because everyone else evolves past you.

Cheers.

local hero · « **Reply #34 on:** December 10, 2009, 12:58:38 PM »

the only thing thats changed in bodybuilding in 30 yrs is advances in nutrition and drugs, they trained the same 30yrs ago as they do now, and theyl train the same way in 30yrs time too..because it isnt rocket science, as much as some of you would like it to be.

the only secret in bodybuilding is learning your own body...

Fatpanda · « **Reply #35 on:** December 10, 2009, 02:11:55 PM »

Quote from: local hero on December 10, 2009, 12:58:38 PM

the only thing thats changed in bodybuilding in 30 yrs is advances in nutrition and drugs, they trained the same 30yrs ago as they do now, and theyl train the same way in 30yrs time too..because it isnt rocket science, as much as some of you would like it to be.

the only secret in bodybuilding is learning your own body...

wes · « **Reply #36 on:** December 11, 2009, 05:08:43 AM »

Dyslexic,I meant depending on ones bodyfat levels cardio should be done 5-6 times a week.

If a person is very fat,he should do more cardio,or longer duration of cardio,or cardio split up two times per day.

For a person in reasonably good shape with lower bodyfat levels,3-4 times a week at 30 minutes should suffice.

For pre-contest,5-6 times a week is the norm, unless you stay really low in bodyfat levels,or are naturally very lean (fast metabolism).

The best time for cardio IMO,is post-workout,ie., immediately after training.

Doing cardio right before training with weights is a bad idea...............you deplete glucose and glycogen from doing the cardio, then have shit for reserves when trying to train hard,which results in a crappy training session from lack of energy and intensity.

If cardio is done after training hard when glucose and glycogen stores are depleted from said training,you then tap into fat stores to use as fuel for the cardio, hence reducing bodyfat levels.

This is only accomplished from eating clean for the most part and keeping protein intake high to retain muscle size.

Also,to retain muscle size,fast walking on an inclined treadfmill is the best way alternated at times with HIT cardio on an eliptical machine.

Vary the incline during the session as well as varying speed and incline throughout the week.

Avoid cardio on leg day or just take a slow walk of longer duration outside after training legs.

Just my 2 cents and the way I get into contest condition for decades.

nolotil · « **Reply #37 on:** December 11, 2009, 05:33:54 AM »

Quote from: wes on December 11, 2009, 05:08:43 AM

Dyslexic,I meant depending on ones bodyfat levels cardio should be done 5-6 times a week.

If a person is very fat,he should do more cardio,or longer duration of cardio,or cardio split up two times per day.

For a person in reasonably good shape with lower bodyfat levels,3-4 times a week at 30 minutes should suffice.

For pre-contest,5-6 times a week is the norm, unless you stay really low in bodyfat levels,or are naturally very lean (fast metabolism).

The best time for cardio IMO,is post-workout,ie., immediately after training.

Doing cardio right before training with weights is a bad idea...............you deplete glucose and glycogen from doing the cardio, then have shit for reserves when trying to train hard,which results in a crappy training session from lack of energy and intensity.

If cardio is done after training hard when glucose and glycogen stores are depleted from said training,you then tap into fat stores to use as fuel for the cardio, hence reducing bodyfat levels.

This is only accomplished from eating clean for the most part and keeping protein intake high to retain muscle size.

Also,to retain muscle size,fast walking on an inclined treadfmill is the best way alternated at times with HIT cardio on an eliptical machine.

Vary the incline during the session as well as varying speed and incline throughout the week.

Avoid cardio on leg day or just take a slow walk of longer duration outside after training legs.

Just my 2 cents and the way I get into contest condition for decades.

why would you do cardio straight after working out when all that will do is (1) send reverse signal of growth (2) prolong the time you dont eat after the workout. point of a workout is to send a growth signal. makes no sense at all. almost worse time to do cardio...together with just before a workout.

and of course people still have gotten results doing it that way,, i have to..but when you learn new things you can make changes and seperate cardio from the weights session.

best time to do cardio, if you choose to do it, is as far away from the workouts as possible.

wes · « **Reply #38 on:** December 11, 2009, 05:42:46 AM »

You could be right,but I`m not hitting the gym twice a day, and this has always gotten me down to single digit bodyfat levels.

I think you may be overanalysing a bit...............it`s not rocket science!!

Bottom line is,if you create a calorie deficit,you`ll lose weight/fat.

As far as signals go,if you tear down tissue while training,it`ll grow or recover if diet is in order regardless of cardio time...........again,not rocket science.

As far as stalling eating time,I doubt if 30 minutes later is gonna` make me shrink down to nothing.

Again,overanalysing things and relying on articles read as opposed to real experience.

Studies schmudies........real world experience counts for far more.

nolotil · « **Reply #39 on:** December 11, 2009, 06:14:08 AM »

Quote from: wes on December 11, 2009, 05:42:46 AM

You could be right,but I`m not hitting the gym twice a day, and this has always gotten me down to single digit bodyfat levels.

I think you may be overanalysing a bit...............it`s not rocket science!!

Bottom line is,if you create a calorie deficit,you`ll lose weight/fat.

As far as signals go,if you tear down tissue while training,it`ll grow or recover if diet is in order regardless of cardio time...........again,not rocket science.

As far as stalling eating time,I doubt if 30 minutes later is gonna` make me shrink down to nothing.

Again,overanalysing things and relying on articles read as opposed to real experience.

Studies schmudies........real world experience counts for far more.

im also a bottom line guys..if something is working dont mess with it...in general...but its not like you have to do cardio after weights. as for studies i dont read studies i read articles written by smart guys who read studies

(and no..not regular bodybuilding magazines

)....

i have dieted for many shows myself doing cardio after workouts....but it doesnt meen that its the best thing to do...cuz you cant seperate factors when you talk about anectodes.

Fatpanda · « **Reply #40 on:** December 11, 2009, 10:08:10 AM »

wes i take it you never read the first link i posted

studies have shown why you shouldn't do cardio on an empty stomach. you may ignore them because you have managed doing it your way all these years, but facts are facts - you have been using sub standard inefficient tactics to get ripped and recover.

wes · « **Reply #41 on:** December 11, 2009, 03:25:16 PM »

I`ll go back and check it FP.

dyslexic · « **Reply #42 on:** December 11, 2009, 10:56:42 PM »

Thanks Wes.

All this scientific objectivity is giving (us) dejavu again isn't it?

First and foremost, the CNS has to be in a positive state. All the other crap will fall into place.

I would never be able to do cardio after legs as I can barely walk out of the gym... I also have a manual transmission to contend with. You know what works for you. You have incorporated your science, logic and emperical data to maximize your efficiency.

How can someone possibly say it could have been significantly (key word) better and more efficient?

This is why I will continue to post about all the dogma and objective science that is currently being shoved down our throats (no homo)

Sooner or later, it will change when the money flows differently and the studies have perpetuated long enough to convince all the new certification orginizations.

Sometimes when people post here, I can almost see them taking their A.C.E cert for the first time and getting ready to preach to the masses. I have seen pics of your physique Wes. Can't imagine you doing anything differently when it comes to getting shredded.

Oh well...

local hero · « **Reply #43 on:** December 12, 2009, 06:35:27 AM »

Quote from: wes on December 11, 2009, 05:42:46 AM

You could be right,but I`m not hitting the gym twice a day, and this has always gotten me down to single digit bodyfat levels.

I think you may be overanalysing a bit...............it`s not rocket science!!

Bottom line is,if you create a calorie deficit,you`ll lose weight/fat.

As far as signals go,if you tear down tissue while training,it`ll grow or recover if diet is in order regardless of cardio time...........again,not rocket science.

As far as stalling eating time,I doubt if 30 minutes later is gonna` make me shrink down to nothing.

Again,overanalysing things and relying on articles read as opposed to real experience.

Studies schmudies........real world experience counts for far more.
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local hero · « **Reply #44 on:** December 12, 2009, 06:39:31 AM »

spoken by somone else on here who actual trains, and looks like he trains........... amazing how us fellow men of muscle who have dieted down to sub 5% and carried around a good amount of bodymass seem not to sweat the little stuff, just train hard eat well and still look great...

wes · « **Reply #45 on:** December 13, 2009, 02:50:52 PM »

I agree with local hero (of course) !!

Thanks for the kind words dyslexic,I like your posts and views on training.

Fatpanda · « **Reply #46 on:** December 14, 2009, 09:28:36 AM »

Quote from: dyslexic on December 11, 2009, 10:56:42 PM

How can someone possibly say it could have been significantly (key word) better and more efficient?

Oh well...

because they have compared both methods via tightly controlled peer reviewed, double blind studies . Which shows conclusively that it is less efficient

i am not saying cardio on an empty stomach is bad, simply that the science shows it to be inferior in many respects to fed cardio.

i am not stating personal opinion, i have no preference either way. in fact i feel like i have more energy on an empty stomach. But facts are facts.

take it or leave it.

Team Diver · « **Reply #47 on:** December 14, 2009, 11:20:07 AM »

Quote from: A DUB on December 05, 2009, 12:41:51 PM

I'm hoping someone can shed some light on this:

On the stationary bike in my gym, it states that for a 30 year old:

65% of my max heart rate should be around -123 bpm. And that at this rate- this is optimal for FAT BURNING.

and that, 80% of my max HR should be around 152 bpm and that this rate is optimal for Cardiovascular health.

Now, I do not fully understand this concept... Let's say that I ride the bike for 15 minutes and at 65% of my max HR, i burn 150 calories... Now compare that to if i ride the bike for 15 minutes at 80% of my max HR and I burn 200 calories... Isn't the latter going to help me decrease my overall bodyfat better due to the fact that im burning more calories this way?

Or do we mobilize fat better at lower heart rates? or something!?

Hopefully someone can clarify, or point me to a website that explains it!

thanks!

-A DUB

I think low intensity 'cardio' activities like speedy walk must also be beneficial for cardiovascular health. Staying at 152 bpm for 30-40 minutes sounds a bit tough for me...

nolotil · « **Reply #48 on:** December 14, 2009, 06:17:23 PM »

Quote from: A DUB on December 14, 2009, 05:59:07 PM

Wow lots of heated debates. I appreciate all the replies.

It was my understanding that doing cardio in low glycogen states was IDEAL... being that you burn more fat at this time.... low glycogen states being first thing in the morning (after overnight fast) and after lifting weights.

I dont know if i buy into all this negative signal stuff?

I typically lift weights for 45-90 minutes depending on the day and will do cardio for 15-30 minutes after on most days... but i will switch things up.

I am not really trying to be super scientific, moreso, just attempting to understand the basics and do things with a purpose, not simply because "thats what others do".

thanks!

-A DUB

1. doing cardio after weights is far from ideal. a) sends reverse signal b) delays food intake;....its important to get protein into your system to kick start anabolism after a workout (in simpliefied terms)
2. the substrate you burn during cardio isnt as important as the calories you burn and/or that you achieve a caloric deficit over a certain period of time.
3. if you do cardio on an empty stomach in the morning and burn relatively more fat, the body will burn more carbs during the rest of the day so at the end of the day it evens out. (= do cardio whenever you want except in conjunction with workouts...nothing wrong with morning cardio...but it isnt magic.)

bottom line: seperate weights and cardio and make sure you are in a caloric deficit if you wanna loose weight. keep protein high and lift heavy to keep muscle.

dyslexic · « **Reply #49 on:** December 14, 2009, 06:38:18 PM »

At the same time, when observing competitive professional bodybuilders before a competition who work out at Golds in Venice-- you will still see them hit the treadmill at a very slow, near death walk after their brutal weight training.

Walk up to them when they win their placings and tell them that they could have done it better and differently. Make sure your bodyfat levels are low in the single digits when you confront them.

Better yet, interrupt their post-workout cardio sessions and tell them then...