Author Topic: Sarah Palin Takes Stupid To A New Level With Glenn Beck!!  (Read 28627 times)

MCWAY

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Re: Sarah Palin Takes Stupid To A New Level With Glenn Beck!!
« Reply #425 on: January 30, 2010, 02:29:38 PM »
ok, bear with me here for a moment

I just want to confirm that you're saying lack of a statement in the Constitution to the contrary proves that the statement "America is a Christian nation" is true

By itself, a lack of statement to the contrary does not. But, combined with the expressed statements of its drafters and signees, it does.

Straw Man

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Re: Sarah Palin Takes Stupid To A New Level With Glenn Beck!!
« Reply #426 on: January 30, 2010, 02:42:09 PM »
By itself, a lack of statement to the contrary does not. But, combined with the expressed statements of its drafters and signees, it does.

wait - you're telling me the statements you're trying to prove to be true are the very things that prove themself to be true?

you've mentioned many times that the Constitution does not (in your words) explicity or implicitly contradict the statement "We are a Christian Nation" and now you're telling me that lack of contrary statement in the Constitution proves those statements to be true but only when combined with the very statements you're trying to prove true?

How does that work?

I'm going to give you a hint where I'm going - the lack of a statement in the Constitution that we're not a Christian Nation is not in any way proof that the statement "We're a Christian Nation" is true.   

MCWAY

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Re: Sarah Palin Takes Stupid To A New Level With Glenn Beck!!
« Reply #427 on: January 30, 2010, 03:01:22 PM »
wait - you're telling me the statements you're trying to prove to be true are the very things that prove themself to be true?

you've mentioned many times that the Constitution does not (in your words) explicity or implicitly contradict the statement "We are a Christian Nation" and now you're telling me that lack of contrary statement in the Constitution proves those statements to be true but only when combined with the very statements you're trying to prove true?

How does that work?

Try that again!!!

The Constitution doesn't contradict what the Founding Fathers said. The Constitution and the Founding Fathers' statements support America being a Christian nation.


I'm going to give you a hint where I'm going - the lack of a statement in the Constitution that we're not a Christian Nation is not in any way proof that the statement "We're a Christian Nation" is true.  

What part of "The Founding Fathers declared that America is a Christian nation" aren't you understanding?

I know exactly where you're going. And I've addressed that already. You're of the impression that the only way America can be called a Christian nation is if the Constitution states that outright.

Straw Man

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Re: Sarah Palin Takes Stupid To A New Level With Glenn Beck!!
« Reply #428 on: January 30, 2010, 03:08:50 PM »
Try that again!!! The Constitution doesn't contradict what the Founding Fathers said. The Constitution and the Founding Fathers' statements support America being a Christian nation.

What part of "The Founding Fathers declared that America is a Christian nation" aren't you understanding?

I know exactly where you're going. And I've addressed that already. You're of the impression that the only way America can be called a Christian nation is if the Constitution states that outright.

as usual - you completely confused.

1.   The "Founding Fathers" did not declare that America is a Christian Nation (I thought we had already cleared that up).
       A few guys made statements like that but they don't speak for the group as a whole

2.   Lack of a statement does not prove the opposite to be true (this goes for anything). 

MCWAY

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Re: Sarah Palin Takes Stupid To A New Level With Glenn Beck!!
« Reply #429 on: January 30, 2010, 03:26:53 PM »
as usual - you completely confused.

1.   The "Founding Fathers" did not declare that America is a Christian Nation (I thought we had already cleared that up).
       A few guys made statements like that but they don't speak for the group as a whole


2.   Lack of a statement does not prove the opposite to be true (this goes for anything). 

It's far more than "a few guys", as you repeatedly assume that the examples I used were exhaustive.


Straw Man

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Re: Sarah Palin Takes Stupid To A New Level With Glenn Beck!!
« Reply #430 on: January 30, 2010, 03:32:18 PM »
It's far more than "a few guys", as you repeatedly assume that the examples I used were exhaustive.

yep and I gave you quotes from James Madison and I can provide many more too that talk about the horrors of religion combined with government.  I assume since they are also founders that you must agree with them too (afterall by your illogical standards - their statements are also not explicitly refuted in the Constitution although there is more implicit support than there are for the statements that you prefer)

What matters is the Constitution and anyone who reads it can see we are a secular goverment that allows freedom of religion

that's it

end of story

everything else is just your imagination or misunderstanding


Soul Crusher

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Re: Sarah Palin Takes Stupid To A New Level With Glenn Beck!!
« Reply #431 on: January 30, 2010, 03:33:26 PM »
For the love of God, no pun intended, what is it going to take to end this thread? 

Straw Man

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Re: Sarah Palin Takes Stupid To A New Level With Glenn Beck!!
« Reply #432 on: January 30, 2010, 03:47:06 PM »
For the love of God, no pun intended, what is it going to take to end this thread? 

Simple - McWay can admit we have a secular government or provide some valid proof to the contrary

Arguments from Ignorance (Because there appears to be a lack of evidence for one hypothesis, another chosen hypothesis is therefore considered proven) or statements from individuals of their own personal beliefs don't work so all he's got to do is find something that does work or even better just join the rest of us back in reality

MCWAY

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Re: Sarah Palin Takes Stupid To A New Level With Glenn Beck!!
« Reply #433 on: January 30, 2010, 03:59:54 PM »
yep and I gave you quotes from James Madison and I can provide many more too that talk about the horrors of religion combined with government.  I assume since they are also founders that you must agree with them too (afterall by your illogical standards - their statements are also not explicitly refuted in the Constitution although there is more implicit support than there are for the statements that you prefer)

Those quotes from Madison do nothing to refute my point, especially when you consider the statement from Madison that I posted.

What matters is the Constitution and anyone who reads it can see we are a secular goverment that allows freedom of religion

that's it

end of story

everything else is just your imagination or misunderstanding


Wrong again, Straw Man.

You don't grasp the Constitution, without looking at the men who wrote and signed it, as well as viewing their insights.

Otherwise, you get silliness like your assertions and those of Lurker.

If the men who wrote and signed the Constitution state that America is a Christian nation, it's quite difficult to listen to claims to the contrary by folks like you without laughing.

MCWAY

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Re: Sarah Palin Takes Stupid To A New Level With Glenn Beck!!
« Reply #434 on: January 30, 2010, 04:04:05 PM »
Simple - McWay can admit we have a secular government or provide some valid proof to the contrary

MCWAY doesn't have to do the former, because he's already done the latter, courtesy of what the men who wrote and signed the Constitution ACTUALLY SAID about our country.

Arguments from Ignorance (Because there appears to be a lack of evidence for one hypothesis, another chosen hypothesis is therefore considered proven) or statements from individuals of their own personal beliefs don't work so all he's got to do is find something that does work or even better just join the rest of us back in reality

The ignorance appears to be coming from YOU. The statements made aren't merely (as you so inaccurately cliam) "personal beliefs". It's what they said about this nation, point blank.

The fact that you keep denying that, even with their own words staring you in the face, makes YOU the one, out of touch with reality.

Words, such as,

"Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.”  - John Jay


Before any man can be considered as a member of civil society, he must be considered as a subject of the Governor of the Universe. And to the same Divine Author of every good and perfect gift we are indebted for all those privileges and advantages, religious as well as civil, which are so richly enjoyed in this favored land." – James Madison

 



"The highest glory of the American Revolution was this: 'It connected in one indissoluble bond the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity"

"Suppose a nation in some distant Region should take the Bible for their only law Book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited! Every member would be obliged in conscience, to temperance, frugality, and industry; to justice, kindness, and charity towards his fellow men; and to piety, love, and reverence toward Almighty God ... What a Eutopia, what a Paradise would this region be."
- John Adams

For my own part, I sincerely esteem it a system which without the finger of God, never could have been suggested and agreed upon by such a diversity of interests. – Alexandar Hamilton

Straw Man

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Re: Sarah Palin Takes Stupid To A New Level With Glenn Beck!!
« Reply #435 on: January 30, 2010, 04:09:26 PM »
McWay - just because you declare something does not make it so.

We're back to the point I was trying to get at about ten pages ago.

If you don't understand the difference between fact and opinion that there's no point in having a dialogue

I've said it before.  I'm not here to argue with you.  This is not called an argument board.

If you have a point then prove it or admit it's just an opinion

So far all you have is an opinion.

It's your opinion that we're a Christian Nation (whatever the fuck that even means)

It's a fact that we are a secular government (see prior pages for proof as listed by myelf and others)

MCWAY

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Re: Sarah Palin Takes Stupid To A New Level With Glenn Beck!!
« Reply #436 on: January 30, 2010, 04:23:13 PM »
McWay - just because you declare something does not make it so.

That's true. Thankfully, the men who wrote and signed the Constitution stated that America is a Christian nation.


We're back to the point I was trying to get at about ten pages ago.

No, YOU'RE back to that point....Lord knows why!!!


If you don't understand the difference between fact and opinion that there's no point in having a dialogu


I've said it before.  I'm not here to argue with you.  This is not called an argument board.

If you have a point then prove it or admit it's just an opinion

So far all you have is an opinion.

It's your opinion that we're a Christian Nation (whatever the fuck that even means)

It's a fact that we are a secular government (see prior pages for proof as listed by myelf and others)

It is FACT that our Founders declared that America was a Christian nation. That's what they said and they are the ones who WROTE AND SIGNED THE CONSTITUTION, not YOU, not me.

It is your opinion that the Constitution must state that America is a Christian nation and that, if it did such, that would be tanamount to a theocracy, ala Saudi Arabia or some other Muslim country.

Said another way, you seem to think that, if America ain't a theocracy (which it's not), it can't be a Christian nation.

Straw Man

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Re: Sarah Palin Takes Stupid To A New Level With Glenn Beck!!
« Reply #437 on: January 30, 2010, 04:31:40 PM »
all you've got to do is show me something in the Constitution to prove you point

simple request

still waiting

other than that it's just you're just expressing freedom of speech as protected in that same document

btw - what is your definition of a Christian Nation?

Soul Crusher

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Re: Sarah Palin Takes Stupid To A New Level With Glenn Beck!!
« Reply #438 on: January 30, 2010, 04:33:39 PM »
all you've got to do is show me something in the Constitution to prove you point

simple request

still waiting

other than that it's just you're just expressing freedom of speech as protected in that same document

btw - what is your definition of a Christian Nation?

Just my .02 - Straw - what is your take on the Declaration of Independence wherein it was states that "We are endowed by our Creator with certain inalienable rights"?

Straw Man

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Re: Sarah Palin Takes Stupid To A New Level With Glenn Beck!!
« Reply #439 on: January 30, 2010, 04:37:01 PM »
Just my .02 - Straw - what is your take on the Declaration of Independence wherein it was states that "We are endowed by our Creator with certain inalienable rights"?

what about it

no one ever said that the people who founded this country weren't religious or didn't have spiritual beliefs.

As you well know, or can read on Wiki, the founders had a variety of religous beliefs, including some who had no belief  

Nothing prevents religious people from founding a secular government

The two are not mutually exclusive

Straw Man

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Re: Sarah Palin Takes Stupid To A New Level With Glenn Beck!!
« Reply #440 on: January 30, 2010, 04:43:19 PM »
Hey McWay - I know you think quotes from the founders are significant. 

Here's one from Jefferson that's pretty easy to understand:

Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814

Soul Crusher

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Re: Sarah Palin Takes Stupid To A New Level With Glenn Beck!!
« Reply #441 on: January 30, 2010, 04:43:52 PM »
what about it

no one ever said that the people who founded this country weren't religious or didn't have spiritual beliefs.

As you well know, or can read on Wiki, the founders had a variety of religous beliefs, including some who had no belief  

Nothing prevents religious people from founding a secular government

The two are not mutually exclusive

Ok.  It was just a question.  

But, our inalienable rights, those being codified in the Constitution and the BOR, are granted by who since we know the constituion is one of negative rights, that meaning what the govt CANT do, not what it has to do?

I'm not agreeing that we are a "chrisitian" nation in the sense that it specifically says so in the constitution, however, under what authority do we say we have certain "inalienable rights", those being life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness?  

Maybe my question is not precise, but what I am getting at is what or who grants us "inalienable rights" as defined in the BOR?

blacken700

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Re: Sarah Palin Takes Stupid To A New Level With Glenn Beck!!
« Reply #442 on: January 31, 2010, 05:51:57 AM »
like i said before you can't argue with these far right religious nut jobs, their all brainwashed ;D so i woundn't wast your time

Soul Crusher

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Re: Sarah Palin Takes Stupid To A New Level With Glenn Beck!!
« Reply #443 on: February 01, 2010, 05:53:45 AM »
like i said before you can't argue with these far right religious nut jobs, their all brainwashed ;D so i woundn't wast your time

Blacken - how old are you?

LurkerNoMore

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Re: Sarah Palin Takes Stupid To A New Level With Glenn Beck!!
« Reply #444 on: February 01, 2010, 07:00:55 AM »
The Constitution doesn't state that the Founding Fathers declared this a Christian nation.


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Welcome to the facts from Page 2 of this thread!!!!

The Constitution is the establishing document of this nation.  If it doesn't declare this is a Christian Nation, it isn't.  Plain and simple.
Otherwise might as well claim this is a Caucasian nation since all the Founding Fathers were white.  After all, even though they didn't say it, it is obvious.   ::)  And since the Constitution doesn't say otherwise, it must be true.   ::)  ::)


Quote
So once again for the benefit of the slow ones on board...

--God was purposely left out of the Constitution
--Jesus - the icon of Christianity - was left out of the Constitution
--America has no established church
-- Every religion and sect known to Man is at home here;
-- Religious and scriptural arguments are invalid in our courts;
-- Religious tests for public office are barred by the Constitution.
--Church and state is separated

America is not a Christian nation.

Pretending it is simply because of your own insecurities and lack of independent thought process is not going to make it so.

Baby Jeebus is weeping over your stupidity right now. 

MCWAY

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Re: Sarah Palin Takes Stupid To A New Level With Glenn Beck!!
« Reply #445 on: February 01, 2010, 09:04:09 PM »
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Welcome to the facts from Page 2 of this thread!!!!

The Constitution is the establishing document of this nation.  If it doesn't declare this is a Christian Nation, it isn't.  Plain and simple.
Otherwise might as well claim this is a Caucasian nation since all the Founding Fathers were white.  After all, even though they didn't say it, it is obvious.   ::)  And since the Constitution doesn't say otherwise, it must be true.   ::)  ::)


And the men who wrote that Constitution declared that this is a Christian nation, PLAIN AND SIMPLE.

It amazes me that your silliness increases with each increasing page. And you continue to run like the clucker that you are.

We have what the Founders said, in black and white. And, as usual, when you asked the basic questions about such, you continue to cower.


LurkerNoMore

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Re: Sarah Palin Takes Stupid To A New Level With Glenn Beck!!
« Reply #446 on: February 02, 2010, 06:32:29 AM »
And the men who wrote that Constitution declared that this is a Christian nation, PLAIN AND SIMPLE.

Not in the Constitution they didn't.  The Constitution establishes this nation and if it isn't in there, then it isn't part of the establishing and governmental process.

Quote
Quote from: MCWAY on January 30, 2010, 12:41:31 PM
The Constitution doesn't state that the Founding Fathers declared this a Christian nation.

Self contradiction.  Once again.   ::)

You've been shit on and made to look like the fool you are for the last 16+ pages and yet you still cling to your delusions.  Is this a Christian trait or just one of stupidity?

Straw Man

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Re: Sarah Palin Takes Stupid To A New Level With Glenn Beck!!
« Reply #447 on: February 02, 2010, 02:15:55 PM »
like i said before you can't argue with these far right religious nut jobs, their all brainwashed ;D so i woundn't wast your time

Their religion requires belief in the absence of evidence and some really ridiculous ideas (for example - the earth is 6000 years old) requires belief contrary to evidence.

McWays beliefs on this matter fall into the 2nd category.   If he had any intellectual honesty this would have ended with a quick review of the Constitution.

MCWAY

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Re: Sarah Palin Takes Stupid To A New Level With Glenn Beck!!
« Reply #448 on: February 03, 2010, 06:46:52 AM »
Not in the Constitution they didn't.  The Constitution establishes this nation and if it isn't in there, then it isn't part of the establishing and governmental process.

That's patently false, as indicated by the very men who wrote the Constitution. They stated on what they based that document. The fact that you can't grasp that speak of how pathetically myopic you are.


Self contradiction.  Once again.   ::)

You've been shit on and made to look like the fool you are for the last 16+ pages and yet you still cling to your delusions.  Is this a Christian trait or just one of stupidity?

In your dreams, Lurker. Time and time again, I've pointed out what the Founding Fathers have stated and asked you to defend some of your warped claims. Time and time again, you've run like a punk.

A prime example is your repeated ducking that whole Treaty of Tripoli thing, namely why the very portion that you touted as proof of America not being a Christian nation got DROPPED in 1805.


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Re: Sarah Palin Takes Stupid To A New Level With Glenn Beck!!
« Reply #449 on: February 03, 2010, 06:50:17 AM »
Their religion requires belief in the absence of evidence and some really ridiculous ideas (for example - the earth is 6000 years old) requires belief contrary to evidence.

McWays beliefs on this matter fall into the 2nd category.   If he had any intellectual honesty this would have ended with a quick review of the Constitution.



Absence of evidence? You must be smoking a different type of "Straw".

The evidence that this is a Christian nation comes from the VERY MEN WHO WROTE AND SIGNED THE CONSTITUTION, evidence that I've posted repeatedly, right here in black-and-white.

That is what they said of this nation and its Constitution. The fact that both you and Lurker continue to make buffoons of yourself, by not observing what they said about the document THAT THEY WROTE AND SIGNED shows that the intellectual dishonesty (and boneheadedness, for that matter) falls on you.

So, in typical "Straw Man" fashion, you (and Lurker) prop up a bogus requirement, claiming that the Constitution must state America is a Christian nation.

Obviously, the Founding Fathers didn't get that crackpot memo, or they wouldn't have made statements like.....

Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.” - John Jay


Before any man can be considered as a member of civil society, he must be considered as a subject of the Governor of the Universe. And to the same Divine Author of every good and perfect gift we are indebted for all those privileges and advantages, religious as well as civil, which are so richly enjoyed in this favored land.
– James Madison  (No, Lurker, he ain't talking about Allah or Krishna!!  ::) )

 



"The highest glory of the American Revolution was this: 'It connected in one indissoluble bond the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity"

"Suppose a nation in some distant Region should take the Bible for their only law Book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited! Every member would be obliged in conscience, to temperance, frugality, and industry; to justice, kindness, and charity towards his fellow men; and to piety, love, and reverence toward Almighty God ... What a Eutopia, what a Paradise would this region be."
- John Adams

For my own part, I sincerely esteem it a system which without the finger of God, never could have been suggested and agreed upon by such a diversity of interests.
– Alexandar Hamilton (the "it", of course, IS THE CONSTITUTION, as Hamilton made this statement after the Constitutional Convention).