The Mexican Repatriation - Relevant to Arizona’s Immigration Law

[tonymctones]

Even I think they abuse that law to pull people over, especially in the middle of the night, but I don't see that as a real problem... if you're swerving or whatever, it just makes sense.

I agree that at times there is abuse but like Ive said time and time again that is true of any law...if thats the reasoning one uses to invalidate this law then they logically should be against all laws...

I think you create a law the tries to minimize abuse while achieving its goal and penalize the cops that abuse the law, you dont let the criminals run free for the fear of abuse...

[240 is Back]

I want 100% clarification that no American will ever be pulled from a street corner, in line, etc (anywhere but driving) and have an officer require them show proof of citizenship.

Link to that in the bill, and I'll accept it.  Then I'll need to know why Bill Kristol was wrong, mccain was wrong, tancredo was wrong...

[tonymctones]

I never said the law will be used to pull over people just because they look or sound Mexican.  I said the law will be used to detain and even deport US citizens, after they've been pulled over for other reasons, simply because they look or sound Mexican.

have you read the process? there seems to be a number of checks and balances in the bill giving the person plenty of opportunities in which to prove their citizenship...

you could say that of any law that we put in place to deport illegals so thats not a good enough reason, you do what you can to limit it...again you seem to want something that will be infallable well simply the fact that humans have a hand in means that it wont be again thats not reason enough to not target illegals for deportation...

[tonymctones]

I want 100% clarification that no American will ever be pulled from a street corner, in line, etc (anywhere but driving) and have an officer require them show proof of citizenship.

Link to that in the bill, and I'll accept it.  Then I'll need to know why Bill Kristol was wrong, mccain was wrong, tancredo was wrong...

man youre an idiot...loitering is against the law, what if its a domestic disturbance at a house...if in the course of investigating a crime they come across someone who give reasonable suspicion to believe they may not be legal they can request proof!!!!!!!! this isnt just about traffic violations its about lawful violations!!!!

[loco]

have you read the process? there seems to be a number of checks and balances in the bill giving the person plenty of opportunities in which to prove their citizenship...

you could say that of any law that we put in place to deport illegals so thats not a good enough reason, you do what you can to limit it...again you seem to want something that will be infallable well simply the fact that humans have a hand in means that it wont be again thats not reason enough to not target illegals for deportation...

That's not what I want.  But I'll tell you what I don't want.  I wouldn't want myself, or anyone in my family or anyone of my friends who might be American citizens getting arrested in Arizona and later deported simply because they are Hispanic or Latino.  That is what I do not want.  It has happened before, and this new law just opens the door for this to take place even more.  

Personally, as a Latino man, I would avoid Arizona like the plague now all because of this new law.  I'm sure many American citizens in the US now feel the same way.  That can't be good for the state's economy.

[tonymctones]

That's not what I want.  But I'll tell you what I don't want.  I wouldn't want myself, or anyone in my family or anyone of my friends who might be American citizens getting arrested in Arizona and later deported simply because they are Hispanic or Latino.  That is what I do not want.  It has happened before, and this new law just opens the door for this to take place even more.  

Personally, as a Latino man, I would avoid Arizona like the plague now all because of this new law.  I'm sure many American citizens in the US now feel the same way.  That can't be good for the state's economy.

what law would you be ok with that would be able to decipher between illegals and legals?

basically the requiremnts that you have set forth can only lead to the conclusion i have come to...you may not want what i said you do but thats what you get when you use the logic that youre using...

[loco]

what law would you be ok with that would be able to decipher between illegals and legals?

basically the requiremnts that you have set forth can only lead to the conclusion i have come to...you may not want what i said you do but thats what you get when you use the logic that youre using...

None.

[tonymctones]

None.

EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

in your mind no law targeting illegals would be ok...

[dario73]

None.

And that is why your name on this forum fits you.

Doing nothing would be crazy and would harm this nation.

[loco]

EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

in your mind no law targeting illegals would be ok...

Exactly!  You can't target illegals without using racial profiling and oppressing innocent American citizens.

Given the history of serial killers, would you be okay with a law that requires all white males residing in the state to report to the nearest police station for interrogation, finger prints and DNA tests any time there is a serial killer on the loose in their state?

What law would you be okay with that would be able to decipher between serial killers and innocent white males?

[dario73]

Lets be honest here. You don't care about this law "oppressing innocent American citizens". That is just an excuse and a tactic you are using to divert attention from the real issue. You just don't want your family members, friends, your lawnmower man to be sent packing.

I know it must be tough for you to understand but for the good of this nation, I, as a citizen, am perfectly fine with being inconvenienced from time to time if that meant sending illegal immigrants like Pancho, Guadalupe and Julio Cesar back home.

[loco]

Lets be honest here. You don't care about this law "oppressing innocent American citizens". That is just an excuse and a tactic you are using to divert attention from the real issue. You just don't want your family members, friends, your lawnmower man to be sent packing.

I know it must be tough for you to understand but for the good of this nation, I, as a citizen, am perfectly fine with being inconvenienced from time to time if that meant sending illegal immigrants like Pancho, Guadalupe and Julio Cesar back home.

LOL

Let's be honest, Dario!  I do care very much about this law "oppressing innocent American citizens" because these innocent American citizens could very well be myself, my family and my Latino friends.  Let's be honest, you would not want to be arrested and sent to Mexico when you are an American citizen.

[dario73]

You act as if this law is going to wrongfully arrest and deport thousands of legal citizens. Give me a break.

All the other states should follow AZ. I will be praying to Maria de Guadalupe for this law to go national and all illegal immigrants to be sent home soon.

[loco]

You act as if this law is going to wrongfully arrest and deport thousands of legal citizens. Give me a break.

All the other states should follow AZ. I will be praying to Maria de Guadalupe for this law to go national and all illegal immigrants to be sent home soon.

Thousands?  So it's okay with you as long as it's "only" 500, 100, 50 American citizens who get arrested and/or sent to Mexico?  You would care very much if even if only one American citizen gets arrested and sent to Mexico, if that American citizen happens to be you.

[tonymctones]

Exactly!  You can't target illegals without using racial profiling and oppressing innocent American citizens.

Given the history of serial killers, would you be okay with a law that requires all white males residing in the state to report to the nearest police station for interrogation, finger prints and DNA tests any time there is a serial killer on the loose in their state?

What law would you be okay with that would be able to decipher between serial killers and innocent white males?

LOL you see the problem is your law targets white ppl...the arizona law targets illegals it just so happens that the majority of illegals are mexican...

this is like saying cops in white neighborhoods target white ppl, its not that they target white ppl its that the majority of ppl in that neighborhood are white...

this law doesnt target mexican ppl it targets illegals, your scenario targets white ppl specifically which is a protected class...this bill actually goes out of its way to specifically say that you cannot use race as a reason to investigate their citizenship...

[loco]

LOL you see the problem is your law targets white ppl...the arizona law targets illegals it just so happens that the majority of illegals are mexican...

this is like saying cops in white neighborhoods target white ppl, its not that they target white ppl its that the majority of ppl in that neighborhood are white...

this law doesnt target mexican ppl it targets illegals, your scenario targets white ppl specifically which is a protected class...this bill actually goes out of its way to specifically say that you cannot use race as a reason to investigate their citizenship...

No, it's not my law, just a scenario I gave you.  And it does not target white people.  It targets serial killers.  It just so happens that the majority of serial killers are white males.

So tell me, what gives a cop "reasonable suspicion" that somebody is an illegal immigrant?

[tonymctones]

No, it's not my law, just a scenario I gave you.  And it does not target white people.  It targets serial killers.  It just so happens that the majority of serial killers are white males.

So tell me, what gives a cop "reasonable suspicion" that somebody is an illegal immigrant?

actually the law does target white ppl if they are specifically named in the law like in your scenario...

show me where in this law it specifically targets ppl on the basis of race...this law doesnt target ppl based on skin color, it targets ppl based on legal status it just so happens that the majority of illegals are mexican especially in the border states...

thats the difference loco, your scenario says all white ppl...this law does not mention race not one time other than to say that it cannot be used as reasonable suspicion...your does!!!!!

lol why dont we wait to find out they havent even come up with the guidelines and your already condemning it...

[loco]

actually the law does target white ppl if they are specifically named in the law like in your scenario...

show me where in this law it specifically targets ppl on the basis of race...this law doesnt target ppl based on skin color, it targets ppl based on legal status it just so happens that the majority of illegals are mexican especially in the border states...

thats the difference loco, your scenario says all white ppl...this law does not mention race not one time other than to say that it cannot be used as reasonable suspicion...your does!!!!!

lol why dont we wait to find out they havent even come up with the guidelines and your already condemning it...

What?  They signed a bill into law, which goes into effect in what, 90 days?  And you are telling me that they have yet to come up with the "guidelines" on what constitutes "reasonable suspicion" that somebody is an illegal alien?

[tonymctones]

What?  They signed a bill into law, which goes into effect in what, 90 days?  And you are telling me that they have yet to come up with the "guidelines" on what constitutes "reasonable suspicion" that somebody is an illegal alien?

dude see this is the problem with knee jerk reactions...you know little to nothing about what is actually in this law...

youve heard ppl ranting and raving about things that arent even present in this bill, did you know this is based on a decison(common law) from the Supreme court?

first educate yourself on this issue

[loco]

dude see this is the problem with knee jerk reactions...you know little to nothing about what is actually in this law...

youve heard ppl ranting and raving about things that arent even present in this bill, did you know this is based on a decison(common law) from the Supreme court?

first educate yourself on this issue

According to you, you know the law and I don't.  Fine!  So tell me what gives a cop "reasonable suspicion" that somebody is an illegal immigrant?

[tonymctones]

According to you, you know the law and I don't.  Fine!  So tell me what gives a cop "reasonable suspicion" that somebody is an illegal immigrant?

I certainly dont know all the ins and outs of this bill but apparently I know much more about it than you do as every other thing you post against this bill doesnt even apply to it...

from what I understand the govenor has put together a group to determine what constitutes reasonable suspicion...

and no they cannot use race b/c that would violate the law itself...

[loco]

I certainly dont know all the ins and outs of this bill but apparently I know much more about it than you do as every other thing you post against this bill doesnt even apply to it...

from what I understand the govenor has put together a group to determine what constitutes reasonable suspicion...

and no they cannot use race b/c that would violate the law itself...

So you are telling me that the governor has signed the bill into law, which goes into effect in 90 days, and then put together a group to determine what constitutes reasonable suspicion that somebody is an illegal immigrant?

[tonymctones]

So you are telling me that the governor has signed the bill into law, which goes into effect in 90 days, and then put together a group to determine what constitutes reasonable suspicion that somebody is an illegal immigrant?

do your research...maybe you will be able to understand why some of the problems you have with this law arent valid

[loco]

do your research...maybe you will be able to understand why some of the problems you have with this law arent valid

Have you done your research?  Why can't you just answer my questions?

[George Whorewell]

I have explained this a half dozen times in two threads to loco but nothing seems to be sinking in here. Lawful interactions between the public and the police cannot by definition be the result of cops randomly targeting Mexicans/ Mexican looking people and asking them to prove their citizenship. Reasonable Suspicion in American Jurisprudence is defined as: an objectively justifiable suspicion that is based on specific facts or circumstances and that justifies stopping and sometimes searching (as by frisking) a person thought to be involved in criminal activity at the time

Furthermore: A police officer stopping a person must be able to point to specific facts or circumstances even though the level of suspicion need not rise to that of the belief that is supported by probable cause. A reasonable suspicion is more than a hunch.

So a hunch that a mexican looking person is an illegal immigraint is not enough to stop, detain and require that person to prove their citizenship.

As I said 10 times already, RS is not PC. You always need PC to arrest somebody. For RS ( a lawful interaction) something has to be going on that causes the police to suspect the individual that they are observing is committing a crime.