Pope Francis: Big Bang and evolution are real.

[The True Adonis]

Charlie Sheen was correct on the facts of AA actually.  lol

[Shockwave]

AA is beyond fucked up:  The only alternatives to AA, as asserted by the Big Book, are "jails, institutions, and death."

what youre missing, is that the 5-10% that it DOES work for,  nothing else will help. Also, is extremely hard to calculate a true succrss rate, as there pure sobriety rate for addicts is extremely low. Relapse happens all the time, sometimes to addicts that have had 25-30 years sober.

For those 5-10%, AA is a godsend. Trying to negate that for thosr people because you dont like the message is pretty short sighted and selfish, IMO.

It does work for many of these people (a lot more than the 5-10% thats being cited, IMO, thats probably defined as permanent sobriety, which is very low in general).

I dont believe in AAs message. It didnt work for me. But i know tons of guys who literally had their lived turned around from AA, who nothing else worked for them.

IMO, that benefit, for them, far outweighs our personal feelings on the subject.



Thats the whole point Adam, these are people who NOTHING ELSE will work for.

[The True Adonis]

what youre missing, is that the 5-10% that it DOES work for,  nothing else will help. Also, is extremely hard to calculate a true succrss rate, as there pure sobriety rate for addicts is extremely low. Relapse happens all the time, sometimes to addicts that have had 25-30 years sober.

For those 5-10%, AA is a godsend. Trying to negate that for thosr people because you dont like the message is pretty short sighted and selfish, IMO.

It does work for many of these people (a lot more than the 5-10% thats being cited, IMO, thats probably defined as permanent sobriety, which is very low in general).

I dont believe in AAs message. It didnt work for me. But i know tons of guys who literally had their lived turned around from AA, who nothing else worked for them.

IMO, that benefit, for them, far outweighs our personal feelings on the subject.



Thats the whole point Adam, these are people who NOTHING ELSE will work for.

I don`t buy that for a second.  Its not like the 5-10 percent exhausted all things and this is the only alternative.  5-10 percent is what happened to work.  Thats worse odds than a coin flip or randomly guessing.  If you had a medical problem and were given treatment options and then given the success rates, you would NOT choose the one with 5-10 percent rate of success.  That is a dismal failure.

Another good article:

http://www.salon.com/2014/03/23/the_pseudo_science_of_alcoholics_anonymous_theres_a_better_way_to_treat_addiction/

The pseudo-science of Alcoholics Anonymous: There’s a better way to treat addiction

[SF1900]

Overall, the success rate for AA is very poor.

Does anyone remember the program D.A.R.E. (Drug Abuse Resistance Education)? DARE is taught widely in schools, yet is extremely ineffective.

The Effectiveness of DARE
Scientific evaluation studies have consistently shown that DARE is ineffective in reducing the use of alcohol and drugs and is sometimes even counterproductive -- worse than doing nothing. That's the conclusion of the U.S. General Accounting Office, 1 the U.S. Surgeon General, 2 the National Academy of Sciences, 3 and the U.S. Department of Education, 4 among many others. 5

Unfortunately, a lot of these programs have strong political backings that they continue to be implemented, despite ineffective results.

[SF1900]

what youre missing, is that the 5-10% that it DOES work for,  nothing else will help. Also, is extremely hard to calculate a true succrss rate, as there pure sobriety rate for addicts is extremely low. Relapse happens all the time, sometimes to addicts that have had 25-30 years sober.

For those 5-10%, AA is a godsend. Trying to negate that for thosr people because you dont like the message is pretty short sighted and selfish, IMO.

It does work for many of these people (a lot more than the 5-10% thats being cited, IMO, thats probably defined as permanent sobriety, which is very low in general).

I dont believe in AAs message. It didnt work for me. But i know tons of guys who literally had their lived turned around from AA, who nothing else worked for them.

IMO, that benefit, for them, far outweighs our personal feelings on the subject.



Thats the whole point Adam, these are people who NOTHING ELSE will work for.

That is not true. Evidence shows there are many more evidence-based treatments that work and are much better than AA. The fact that it helps some people does not mean that it should be consistently implemented when there are better treatment methods out there.

Will AA help some people? Of course it will. However, the downside is that we need to offer the best treatment to people that is backed up by evidence. AA has poor evidence, and therefore should not be the first approach people take.

[The True Adonis]

Overall, the success rate for AA is very poor.

Does anyone remember the program D.A.R.E. (Drug Abuse Resistance Education)? DARE is taught widely in schools, yet is extremely ineffective.

The Effectiveness of DARE
Scientific evaluation studies have consistently shown that DARE is ineffective in reducing the use of alcohol and drugs and is sometimes even counterproductive -- worse than doing nothing. That's the conclusion of the U.S. General Accounting Office, 1 the U.S. Surgeon General, 2 the National Academy of Sciences, 3 and the U.S. Department of Education, 4 among many others. 5

Unfortunately, a lot of these programs have strong political backings that they continue to be implemented, despite ineffective results.

Get a load of this:

One of the founders of AA was a total nutjob:

Alternative cures and spiritualism

In the 1950s Wilson used LSD in medically supervised experiments with Betty Eisner, Gerald Heard, and Aldous Huxley. With Wilson's invitation, his wife Lois, his spiritual adviser Father Ed Dowling, and Nell Wing also participated in experimentation of this drug. Later Wilson wrote to Carl Jung, praising the results and recommending it as validation of Jung's spiritual experience. (The letter was not in fact sent as Jung had died.)[32] According to Wilson, the session allowed him to re-experience a spontaneous spiritual experience he had had years before, which had enabled him to overcome his own alcoholism. Bill was enthusiastic about his experience; he felt it helped him eliminate many barriers erected by the self, or ego, that stand in the way of one's direct experience of the cosmos and of God. He thought he might have found something that could make a big difference to the lives of many who still suffered. Bill is quoted as saying: "It is a generally acknowledged fact in spiritual development that ego reduction makes the influx of God's grace possible. If, therefore, under LSD we can have a temporary reduction, so that we can better see what we are and where we are going — well, that might be of some help. The goal might become clearer. So I consider LSD to be of some value to some people, and practically no damage to anyone. It will never take the place of any of the existing means by which we can reduce the ego, and keep it reduced."[33] Wilson felt that regular usage of LSD in a carefully controlled, structured setting would be beneficial for many recovering alcoholics. However, he felt this method only should be attempted by individuals with well-developed super-egos.[34] In 1957 Wilson wrote a letter to Heard saying: "I am certain that the LSD experiment has helped me very much. I find myself with a heightened colour perception and an appreciation of beauty almost destroyed by my years of depressions." Most AAs were violently opposed to his experimenting with a mind-altering substance.[35]

Wilson met Abram Hoffer and learned about the potential mood-stabilizing effects of niacin.[36] Wilson was impressed with experiments indicating that alcoholics who were given niacin had a better sobriety rate, and he began to see niacin "as completing the third leg in the stool, the physical to complement the spiritual and emotional." Wilson also believed that niacin had given him relief from depression, and he promoted the vitamin within the AA community and with the National Institute of Mental Health as a treatment for schizophrenia. However, Wilson created a major furor in AA because he used the AA office and letterhead in his promotion.[37]

For Wilson, spiritualism was a lifelong interest. One of his letters to adviser Father Dowling suggests that while Wilson was working on his book Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, he felt that spirits were helping him, in particular a 15th-century monk named Boniface.[38] Despite his conviction that he had evidence for the reality of the spirit world, Wilson chose not to share this with AA. However his practices still created controversy within the AA membership. Wilson and his wife continued with their unusual practices in spite of the misgivings of many AA members. In their house they had a "spook room" where they would invite guests to participate in seances using a Ouija board

[Shockwave]

That is not true. Evidence shows there are many more evidence-based treatments that work and are much better than AA. The fact that it helps some people does not mean that it should be consistently implemented when there are better treatment methods out there.

Will AA help some people? Of course it will. However, the downside is that we need to offer the best treatment to people that is backed up by evidence. AA has poor evidence, and therefore should not be the first approach people take.

no one is arguing that it should be the primary treatment.

What im saying, over and over, is that a lot of these people have NOTHING and AA is the only thing they can grab onto to give them something to move forward for.

For many of these addicts, with no families, no homes, they have literally NOTHING, they find sanctuary with AA.

And there are plenty of people who AA is the only thing theyve found that works.

Let them have it. Its their life, its taken them from a hell im pretty sure neither of you understand to something that they can actually move forward from.

Thats the whole point. It DOES help these people, and we have no right to tell them that they shouldnt go along with whatever it is that got them straight.

Everyone has to find their own path home from addiction. If AA works for them, great. Let them have it. Theres no reason to tell them they cant because you dont agree with its message.

[The True Adonis]

no one is arguing that it should be the primary treatment.

What im saying, over and over, is that a lot of these people have NOTHING and AA is the only thing they can grab onto to give them something to move forward for.

For many of these addicts, with no families, no homes, they have literally NOTHING, they find sanctuary with AA.

And there are plenty of people who AA is the only thing theyve found that works.

Let them have it. Its their life, its taken them from a hell im pretty sure neither of you understand to something that they can actually move forward from.

Thats the whole point. It DOES help these people, and we have no right to tell them that they shouldnt go along with whatever it is that got them straight.

Everyone has to find their own path home from addiction. If AA works for them, great. Let them have it. Theres no reason to tell them they cant because you dont agree with its message.

Playing hop scotch and marbles instead of drinking has the same or greater efficacy rate as AA. 

[SF1900]

no one is arguing that it should be the primary treatment.

What im saying, over and over, is that a lot of these people have NOTHING and AA is the only thing they can grab onto to give them something to move forward for.

For many of these addicts, with no families, no homes, they have literally NOTHING, they find sanctuary with AA.

And there are plenty of people who AA is the only thing theyve found that works.

Let them have it. Its their life, its taken them from a hell im pretty sure neither of you understand to something that they can actually move forward from.

Thats the whole point. It DOES help these people, and we have no right to tell them that they shouldnt go along with whatever it is that got them straight.

Everyone has to find their own path home from addiction. If AA works for them, great. Let them have it. Theres no reason to tell them they cant because you dont agree with its message.

The issue is this, there are many programs like AA that utilize a group format that have shown to be effective. So, why continue to implement a program which has poor results? As stated, many of the people you mentioned would also do quite well in other group format treatment programs, but they choose AA because of the hype. Perhaps these people would do EVEN better in these programs. You don't know that.

Youre letting your emotions get the best of you. This is about factual evidence and what treatment work and do not work. This objectively about it.

[BigRo]

Adonis why not try some good LSD for yourself. Or Magic Mushrooms.

[SF1900]

Get a load of this:

One of the founders of AA was a total nutjob:

Alternative cures and spiritualism

In the 1950s Wilson used LSD in medically supervised experiments with Betty Eisner, Gerald Heard, and Aldous Huxley. With Wilson's invitation, his wife Lois, his spiritual adviser Father Ed Dowling, and Nell Wing also participated in experimentation of this drug. Later Wilson wrote to Carl Jung, praising the results and recommending it as validation of Jung's spiritual experience. (The letter was not in fact sent as Jung had died.)[32] According to Wilson, the session allowed him to re-experience a spontaneous spiritual experience he had had years before, which had enabled him to overcome his own alcoholism. Bill was enthusiastic about his experience; he felt it helped him eliminate many barriers erected by the self, or ego, that stand in the way of one's direct experience of the cosmos and of God. He thought he might have found something that could make a big difference to the lives of many who still suffered. Bill is quoted as saying: "It is a generally acknowledged fact in spiritual development that ego reduction makes the influx of God's grace possible. If, therefore, under LSD we can have a temporary reduction, so that we can better see what we are and where we are going — well, that might be of some help. The goal might become clearer. So I consider LSD to be of some value to some people, and practically no damage to anyone. It will never take the place of any of the existing means by which we can reduce the ego, and keep it reduced."[33] Wilson felt that regular usage of LSD in a carefully controlled, structured setting would be beneficial for many recovering alcoholics. However, he felt this method only should be attempted by individuals with well-developed super-egos.[34] In 1957 Wilson wrote a letter to Heard saying: "I am certain that the LSD experiment has helped me very much. I find myself with a heightened colour perception and an appreciation of beauty almost destroyed by my years of depressions." Most AAs were violently opposed to his experimenting with a mind-altering substance.[35]

Wilson met Abram Hoffer and learned about the potential mood-stabilizing effects of niacin.[36] Wilson was impressed with experiments indicating that alcoholics who were given niacin had a better sobriety rate, and he began to see niacin "as completing the third leg in the stool, the physical to complement the spiritual and emotional." Wilson also believed that niacin had given him relief from depression, and he promoted the vitamin within the AA community and with the National Institute of Mental Health as a treatment for schizophrenia. However, Wilson created a major furor in AA because he used the AA office and letterhead in his promotion.[37]

For Wilson, spiritualism was a lifelong interest. One of his letters to adviser Father Dowling suggests that while Wilson was working on his book Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, he felt that spirits were helping him, in particular a 15th-century monk named Boniface.[38] Despite his conviction that he had evidence for the reality of the spirit world, Wilson chose not to share this with AA. However his practices still created controversy within the AA membership. Wilson and his wife continued with their unusual practices in spite of the misgivings of many AA members. In their house they had a "spook room" where they would invite guests to participate in seances using a Ouija board

That is quite troubling. Sounds like a lot of quackery to me.

[BigRo]

you need some LSD too ^^^

[SF1900]

you need some LSD too ^^^

Do you think I am going to take advice from a man who was accepting weekly or monthly payments from uncle junior? Sounds pretty sketchy to me. What type of pictures did you send him in exchange for the money? 

[The True Adonis]

no one is arguing that it should be the primary treatment.

What im saying, over and over, is that a lot of these people have NOTHING and AA is the only thing they can grab onto to give them something to move forward for.

For many of these addicts, with no families, no homes, they have literally NOTHING, they find sanctuary with AA.

And there are plenty of people who AA is the only thing theyve found that works.

Let them have it. Its their life, its taken them from a hell im pretty sure neither of you understand to something that they can actually move forward from.

Thats the whole point. It DOES help these people, and we have no right to tell them that they shouldnt go along with whatever it is that got them straight.

Everyone has to find their own path home from addiction. If AA works for them, great. Let them have it. Theres no reason to tell them they cant because you dont agree with its message.

Its kinda like putting Creationism in a text book and then proclaiming, "Whats the harm?  It allowed some people to understand the universe.  Even if it is horrible evidence and no science, we should not be overly critical of it. Let them have it."

When the failure rate of something is far greater than the success rate, something is dearly wrong, especially when the approach is not based on any sound evidence or medical science.  

[BigRo]

Do you think I am going to take advice from a man who was accepting weekly or monthly payments from uncle junior? Sounds pretty sketchy to me. What type of pictures did you send him in exchange for the money? 

just take some once in your life.

[The True Adonis]

just take some once in your life.

Not interested.  I like my synapses the way they are and do not need some chemical to alter them.

[The True Adonis]

No idea why AA would bag on Prison.  I bet prison has about a 100 percent success rate as far as dealing with alcoholics and drug addicts.

[Simple Simon]

Not interested.  I like my synapses the way they are and do not need some chemical to alter them.

Your loss mate, at least take some if you find out at some point you are terminally ill, I have a bucket list including heroin when my time comes.

[BigRo]

sounds like your scared to try, dont be, you can still come back to your rotten cynicism of all things spiritual.

[SF1900]

just take some once in your life.

why? so i can turn into someone who accepts money from strangers online, like you?   sorry, ill keep my self-respect.

[Shockwave]

The issue is this, there are many programs like AA that utilize a group format that have shown to be effective. So, why continue to implement a program which has poor results? As stated, many of the people you mentioned would also do quite well in other group format treatment programs, but they choose AA because of the hype. Perhaps these people would do EVEN better in these programs. You don't know that.

Youre letting your emotions get the best of you. This is about factual evidence and what treatment work and do not work. This objectively about it.

Dude... i fucking hated AA. But im not about to force someone else out of something thats keeping them sober into something else that may or may not work, and risk them losing their sobriety, because i dont agree with ones message, and I like the results better on a different program.

Thats not our decision to make. Thats theirs.

I think YOU guys are letting your emotions cloud your judgement, because you dislike the spirituality angle and because there are other treatments that have been shown to have a better success rate.

Thats all fine and good, but thats no reason to try and take someone out of a program that they found that works for them.

I guarantee you, theyd be pretty pissed if they lost 25 yrs of sobriety because you said 'AA is flawed, you need to try this program instead, it has a better success rate', only for them to decide they hate the programs ideas/message/people, and go get fucked up.

You habr to remember, these people arent rational, theh live on the razora edge, one bad experience away from being fucked up again.

You can disagree with me all you want, thats fine,  but ive lived and seen this shit 1st hand.

I hated it. Other guys cant live without it. We dont habe a right to tell them they need to jeaporsizs what works for them because we dont like the idea of AA or its principles.

[SF1900]

sounds like your scared to try, dont be, you can still come back to your rotten cynicism of all things spiritual.

What you call cynicism, I call "reality" or being "realistic"

But you can spit it anyway you want to try to make yourself appear right. Whatever helps you sleep better at night.

[The True Adonis]

Dude... i fucking hated AA. But im not about to force someone else out of something thats keeping them sober into something else that may or may not work, and risk them losing their sobriety, because i dont agree with ones message, and I like the results better on a different program.

Thats not our decision to make. Thats theirs.

I think YOU guys are letting your emotions cloud your judgement, because you dislike the spirituality angle and because there are other treatments that have been shown to have a better success rate.

Thats all fine and good, but thats no reason to try and take someone out of a program that they found that works for them.

I guarantee you, theyd be pretty pissed if they lost 25 yrs of sobriety because you said 'AA is flawed, you need to try this program instead, it has a better success rate', only for them to decide they hate the programs ideas/message/people, and go get fucked up.

You habr to remember, these people arent rational, theh live on the razora edge, one bad experience away from being fucked up again.

You can disagree with me all you want, thats fine,  but ive lived and seen this shit 1st hand.

I hated it. Other guys cant live without it. We dont habe a right to tell them they need to jeaporsizs what works for them because we dont like the idea of AA or its principles.

They can do whatever they want, but they can`t deny the facts.  They will be true regardless if they believe them or not.

[BigRo]

What you call cynicism, I call "reality" or being "realistic"

But you can spit it anyway you want to try to make yourself appear right. Whatever helps you sleep better at night.

your not getting a rise out of me tonight, however much you may want to sleep better with your boring worldview.

[SF1900]

Dude... i fucking hated AA. But im not about to force someone else out of something thats keeping them sober into something else that may or may not work, and risk them losing their sobriety, because i dont agree with ones message, and I like the results better on a different program.

Thats not our decision to make. Thats theirs.

I think YOU guys are letting your emotions cloud your judgement, because you dislike the spirituality angle and because there are other treatments that have been shown to have a better success rate.

Thats all fine and good, but thats no reason to try and take someone out of a program that they found that works for them.

I guarantee you, theyd be pretty pissed if they lost 25 yrs of sobriety because you said 'AA is flawed, you need to try this program instead, it has a better success rate', only for them to decide they hate the programs ideas/message/people, and go get fucked up.

You habr to remember, these people arent rational, theh live on the razora edge, one bad experience away from being fucked up again.

You can disagree with me all you want, thats fine,  but ive lived and seen this shit 1st hand.

I hated it. Other guys cant live without it. We dont habe a right to tell them they need to jeaporsizs what works for them because we dont like the idea of AA or its principles.

This is the problem: AA has such a poor rate of success that there are only a handful of people that actually benefit from it. Youre making it seem like there is overwhelming evidence that its a great program. Its not. Id rather get rid of all AA programs and have people start to attend programs that have been shown to be effective because we will be helping a larger amount of people. The fact that it helps such a small percentage of people is not good justification for keeping a poor treatment program around.

I did not say take anyone out of a program. AA should be gradually phased out and so that people who are initially seeking treatment for substance issues will go to treatment programs that are shown to be effective. If the "old timers" want to stick with AA that is fine. But all new referrals for substance use should be referred to treatment programs with evidence.

I am not letting my emotions get the best of me. I am speaking purely from an evidence-based perspective. Youre the one who keeps referring to your own personal experience. That's being driven by emotion.