question about cardio for leans

[Brixtonbulldog]

What is the pros and cons of these two cardio routines-

1.  40 minute, moderate pace jog good for burning approx. 800 cals.

or

2.  1 hour or more fast walk or elliptical for approx. 800 cals.

I'm only 31 with no joint issues and run regularly for time (2-4 miles).  Is one way actually better for leaning without losing muscle?  How many times per week is ideal?  I don't understand the preferences some people have.

[jpm101]

Might consider interval type training. Takes less time invested and gives pretty quick results. Don't need 20, 60 or more minutes to gain prime results. Short burst of 20 seconds, followed by a 10 seconds pause...than 20 seconds- pause 10 seconds, etc, etc.. Cycle this method from 5 to 8 times a workout. Try a search to get more information and different choices of exercises. Can use a spin bike (excellent), row machine, punching bag, etc.

Many versions of interval training, which can include other forms of workouts/exercises than only running.  Tabata is an example of workouts that fit the above suggestions very well. If you want to run, that try 20 second sprints, followed by 10 seconds of rest, etc.....5 to 8 cycles. Not only burn fat, improve stamina (endurance+ strength) but the calves can take on a new and improved look.

Try doing interval on off training days, only take a few minutes for max results. If you just want to do regular running, try not running after a serious weight workout....wait a couple hours at lease. Want to keep the blood (which include important amino acids, hormones, etc for rebuilding muscle mass) in the muscle area work for a while.  You worked hard for that pump, try keeping it as long as you can for muscle building purposes.

Good Luck.

[Brixtonbulldog]

Might consider interval type training. Takes less time invested and gives pretty quick results. Don't need 20, 60 or more minutes to gain prime results. Short burst of 20 seconds, followed by a 10 seconds pause...than 20 seconds- pause 10 seconds, etc, etc.. Cycle this method from 5 to 8 times a workout. Try a search to get more information and different choices of exercises. Can use a spin bike (excellent), row machine, punching bag, etc.

Many versions of interval training, which can include other forms of workouts/exercises than only running.  Tabata is an example of workouts that fit the above suggestions very well. If you want to run, that try 20 second sprints, followed by 10 seconds of rest, etc.....5 to 8 cycles. Not only burn fat, improve stamina (endurance+ strength) but the calves can take on a new and improved look.

Try doing interval on off training days, only take a few minutes for max results. If you just want to do regular running, try not running after a serious weight workout....wait a couple hours at lease. Want to keep the blood (which include important amino acids, hormones, etc for rebuilding muscle mass) in the muscle area work for a while.  You worked hard for that pump, try keeping it as long as you can for muscle building purposes.

Good Luck.

excellent.  thanks.

[Overload]

Might consider interval type training. Takes less time invested and gives pretty quick results. Don't need 20, 60 or more minutes to gain prime results. Short burst of 20 seconds, followed by a 10 seconds pause...than 20 seconds- pause 10 seconds, etc, etc.. Cycle this method from 5 to 8 times a workout. Try a search to get more information and different choices of exercises. Can use a spin bike (excellent), row machine, punching bag, etc.

Many versions of interval training, which can include other forms of workouts/exercises than only running.  Tabata is an example of workouts that fit the above suggestions very well. If you want to run, that try 20 second sprints, followed by 10 seconds of rest, etc.....5 to 8 cycles. Not only burn fat, improve stamina (endurance+ strength) but the calves can take on a new and improved look.

Try doing interval on off training days, only take a few minutes for max results. If you just want to do regular running, try not running after a serious weight workout....wait a couple hours at lease. Want to keep the blood (which include important amino acids, hormones, etc for rebuilding muscle mass) in the muscle area work for a while.  You worked hard for that pump, try keeping it as long as you can for muscle building purposes.

Good Luck.

Exactly what i was going to say.

HIT or intervals have always worked best for me.

To answer your question directly, the cons are it takes more time and seems boring, unless you actually like jogging.  HIT training is great because like JPM mentioned, you can mix it up and do so many things.  Try jumping rope for 30 secs, breath a bit and repeat.  Mix it up with something else, make it fun.  Kind of like a circuit.  That's what i do.  Jump rope, a little speed bag work, footwork, jumping drills, ladder drills...etc.

Get creative, i prefer lower impact with high intensity.

[trapz101]

30-40 minutes of various speed(not running,fast walk at best) and height on the treadmil after training
intervals on off days...worked well for me last year

[Donny]

Exactly what i was going to say.

HIT or intervals have always worked best for me.

To answer your question directly, the cons are it takes more time and seems boring, unless you actually like jogging.  HIT training is great because like JPM mentioned, you can mix it up and do so many things.  Try jumping rope for 30 secs, breath a bit and repeat.  Mix it up with something else, make it fun.  Kind of like a circuit.  That's what i do.  Jump rope, a little speed bag work, footwork, jumping drills, ladder drills...etc.

Get creative, i prefer lower impact with high intensity.

if people think doing Tabata cardio is going to get you in shape like a 45-60 min run then they are dreaming. The idea is to give 100% on Tabata which very few people do, infact when Tabata was introduced test persons were professional Cyclists. A 30 min standard Interval programme on a crosser will give you the results you want. If running, break up the tempo and use hill work. As to running straight after weight training, itīs perfect to lose fat. Depleting the Body of Hormones with running is a Myth from Vince Gironda and who himself went for long cycles on a Bike. Doing HIT Cardio on your rest days will also cut into your recovery. Your Body recovers faster with one type of stress, ie weight training. Moderate cardio is the way to recover and donīt forget HIT Cardio the potential of injury is much higher. I have seen people in Martial arts training going on about HIT cardio and how amazing it is and in the Ring they are gassed out quickly. makes me laugh , there are no short cuts my Friends regardless of how good it sounds training for a 4 minute Tabata.

[Overload]

if people think doing Tabata cardio is going to get you in shape like a 45-60 min run then they are dreaming. The idea is to give 100% on Tabata which very few people do, infact when Tabata was introduced test persons were professional Cyclists. A 30 min standard Interval programme on a crosser will give you the results you want. If running, break up the tempo and use hill work. As to running straight after weight training, itīs perfect to lose fat. Depleting the Body of Hormones with running is a Myth from Vince Gironda and who himself went for long cycles on a Bike. Doing HIT Cardio on your rest days will also cut into your recovery. Your Body recovers faster with one type of stress, ie weight training. Moderate cardio is the way to recover and donīt forget HIT Cardio the potential of injury is much higher. I have seen people in Martial arts training going on about HIT cardio and how amazing it is and in the Ring they are gassed out quickly. makes me laugh , there are no short cuts my Friends regardless of how good it sounds training for a 4 minute Tabata.

Most guys gas out due to putting in too much effort and not pacing themselves due to the adrenaline rush they get in the fight.  They forget their gameplan and go all out, which wears them out.  In training they are constantly thinking about the amount of effort they are using, in a fight they are thinking about not getting hit or hitting their opponent, before they even realize it they used up everything, they get caught up in the moment.

High level fighters who have good cardio either maintain a steady fight pace, or control their level of effort in a fight.  All the MMA and boxers I've known over the years trained for extended periods.  Sure HIT is used due to the nature of how the fights go, they fight 3-5 minute rounds with a 1 minute break, so they do condition themselves for that.  However, most guys i know and trained with would train longer than the round length and for more rounds, so they always had gas in the tank.  I've seen guys who were cardio machines in the gym gas out in 2 rounds of a boxing match due to adrenaline.

Look at Mike Tyson, he had incredible cardio in the gym, but was known to gas out by the 6th round due to the amount of effort he used in the first few rounds trying to KO his opponent.  You have guys like the Diaz brothers who fight a steady pace for 5 rounds no problem, these guys train for extreme distance.  Others like Machida conserve energy and use it in burst.  Both methods are productive and both people train for extreme distance.

I think either method works, personally i never saw results from jogging 4-5 miles like i did when i was doing sprint intervals and foot drills.  I agree the potential for injury is there, but if the person is a weight lifter and in decent shape i don't see injuries very often.

To me it boils down to enjoying the cardio session.  Running or biking for 60 minutes is the most boring thing on the planet to me, i need to enjoy what I'm doing and with HIT or interval training using various methods of cardio it works great.

4 minutes of Tabata is the extreme end, i think 20-30 minutes of intervals is the way to go.

[chaos]

Oh boy....

[Donny]

Most guys gas out due to putting in too much effort and not pacing themselves due to the adrenaline rush they get in the fight.  They forget their gameplan and go all out, which wears them out.  In training they are constantly thinking about the amount of effort they are using, in a fight they are thinking about not getting hit or hitting their opponent, before they even realize it they used up everything, they get caught up in the moment.

High level fighters who have good cardio either maintain a steady fight pace, or control their level of effort in a fight.  All the MMA and boxers I've known over the years trained for extended periods.  Sure HIT is used due to the nature of how the fights go, they fight 3-5 minute rounds with a 1 minute break, so they do condition themselves for that.  However, most guys i know and trained with would train longer than the round length and for more rounds, so they always had gas in the tank.  I've seen guys who were cardio machines in the gym gas out in 2 rounds of a boxing match due to adrenaline.

Look at Mike Tyson, he had incredible cardio in the gym, but was known to gas out by the 6th round due to the amount of effort he used in the first few rounds trying to KO his opponent.  You have guys like the Diaz brothers who fight a steady pace for 5 rounds no problem, these guys train for extreme distance.  Others like Machida conserve energy and use it in burst.  Both methods are productive and both people train for extreme distance.

I think either method works, personally i never saw results from jogging 4-5 miles like i did when i was doing sprint intervals and foot drills.  I agree the potential for injury is there, but if the person is a weight lifter and in decent shape i don't see injuries very often.

To me it boils down to enjoying the cardio session.  Running or biking for 60 minutes is the most boring thing on the planet to me, i need to enjoy what I'm doing and with HIT or interval training using various methods of cardio it works great.

4 minutes of Tabata is the extreme end, i think 20-30 minutes of intervals is the way to go.

your post made me smile (the bit about adrenaline) If you like it do it. Only you know what works for your Body and needs. when i run say 45-60 mins i run at a good steady clip. you are right though you gotta enjoy it. Hiking up hills is also good for some people.

[chaos]

 

[Overload]

your post made me smile (the bit about adrenaline) If you like it do it. Only you know what works for your Body and needs. when i run say 45-60 mins i run at a good steady clip. you are right though you gotta enjoy it. Hiking up hills is also good for some people.

For sure, the bottom line is to like what you do and if it works stick with it.  I did go a bit off tangent there. 

[Donny]

For sure, the bottom line is to like what you do and if it works stick with it.  I did go a bit off tangent there. 

Donīt worry about it.. we all do sometimes..

[jpm101]

HIIT  ( High Intensity Interval Training) ups the metabolism fat burning abilities of the body greatly. The main benefit of  serious (intense)  interval training is that even a day or so after such training the body is still in a fat (lipid included) burning state. Meaning, that even at rest the metabolism rate is such that calories and fat are still being burned. A max, or near max, VO2 reading is a targeted goal with any HIIT session. In most cases, the appetite is suppressed  somewhat following a a serious session with HIIT training.

Not to diminish  the benefits of running and other cardio/endurance type training (30-60 minutes continual plus), which has helped many, many lose weight and regain a level of high fitness. But with too much of a good thing, excess running, etc may also produce a certain amount of muscle mass being lost for the BB'er. Might suggest that HIIT, with any form of the Tabata method (taking from 5 to 8 minutes max to preform). A much shorter investment in time, with much more positive results, with a improve fat burning metabolism and a lesser chance of losing any muscle mass.

If a serious BB'er, and the main focus is on building increased size, you never want to go for any extended running after a hard weight workout. Want to hold onto that muscle building pump. You have gotten so many muscle building element , carried by the blood, into that muscle area and giving it a better chance for new growth and even recovery. Running will only delete that blood from the muscle area worked and even put that much more demand for the body to recover. But that would be an individuals choice, if finding any hidden benefit in running after a great pump....your choice....your body.

Good Luck.

[Donny]

 Based on my experience the Best form of Cardio you can do is "Fartlek" the word means speed play. I was introduced to this in 1985. This gives you complete all round Fitness combining CONTINUOUS running and Higher Intensity running(45mins). You will NEVER get truly fit from 4 mins training just the same as you will never get a well balanced physique by doing 3 exercises and lifting for low reps. The original Tabata study and how they trained is very diffrent to what people say they do..intresting to note they also did continuous cardio 30 mins 1x week. Also the study never showed or proved the Fat loss was much higher than the other study group because it was not tested. i am basing my opinion on years of cardio training doing Running circuits,sprint circuits,endurance runs,fartlek training.. the other thing which comes up time and time again is you will lose muscle and look like a runner.. unless you run Marathons this will not happen. Frank zane and Brad Harris both Ran. True Harris did as he got older do sprints,stair running,Biking.. But why not just Tabata or HIIT ?

[jpm101]

Have been many, many studies and research done on the affects of interval training (HIIT as one type), including the tabata method (Dr. Tabata), over decades. Most comparing/matching result data with endurance style (30-60 minutes plus) training and similar test groups. This research has been carried out all around the world, at different periods.

Example of one study: Comparing the ET  (endurance training) with a Tabata group shows that the ET group will burn a little more that twice the calories than the Tabata group did. But taking skinfold measurements, enzyme action, muscle biopsies, etc of each group, that the Tabata group lost  nearly 9X the body fat loss. This fat loss and calorie burning continued after a given  Tabata workout, even when the body was at total rest. With the ET workout....not so much. Which suggest that burning a high degree of calories does not always compute to losing body fat, but (in some cases) may contribute to muscle wasting in the process. Diet being a factor here.

Perhaps the most important, to the athlete, was that the VO2max (endurance) was greatly increased with shorter interval style workouts. Not to say ET type training does not have a place in anyone's protocol,  it does. But there may be other options to increase stamina (endurance + strength) and with a shorter duration of time invested in training. probably alternating both methods can have greater value in the end.

With Tabata, usually 6 to 8 cycles will fit most peoples needs. 8 cycles being the ultimate max, even for well trained men. If new to this type workout, might suggest two cycle the first week. 3 to 4 times per week. Advance  from there each week.. Going on the assumption that most are in good health, before starting.

Good Luck

[Donny]

skin fold tests are not the most accurate measure of Fat loss, any serious Athlete knows this. There are other forms of measurement much more often used by top Bodybuilders and Athletes such as Underwater weighing,Dexa,(Dual emmission X-Ray absorptiometry) and MRI. The Study mentioned has been shown to have many flaws in itīs claims and was not tested like the original study of Tabata. Link at the end.
I have never known any Athlete who was in top condition with Tabata training alone or HIIT. anyone can look for a study to back up claims but letīs talk real life training for real Athletes. Brings me to my next point.. I have also trained with a competitive Triathlon Athlete and i think we all will agree this is the ultimate test of,STAMINIA,STRENGTH,SPEED. The Three components needed for Fitness but letīs read a quote from a man who should know...

Former Olympic Triathlon Coach for the GB team, Dan Salcedo.

"High intensity can sometimes form a useful part of a Training regime, but it will be of limited benefit by itself.  youīll get generally in shape,but you wonīt develop endurance fitness, and youīll only be able to cope with Four to Eight minutes of exercise"

When we talk of studies read the material of renowned Athletics Coach Arthur Lydiard. He used High intensity in the beginning as early as the 60s and 70s but soon discovered the statistics proved his Runners were losing ground in competition.

http://robertsontrainingsystems.com/blog/the-tabata-myth/

[jpm101]

All any BB'er has to do is to set up a simple interval program (Tabata in this case...3 to 4 weeks basic) and find out the results on his own body. Checking out the leanness of fat and improved muscular condition that can follow.  For most BB'ers is seems to fill their needs quite well. Also time wise, but if your into 45 minute runs than feel free to seek that pleasure for yourself. If thinking interval/tabata workouts will not get you in near or top BB'ing (talking BB'ing here) condition...sorry but you may be sadly wrong. Grasping a better understanding of the  basic concept of this training method might be needed.

Just to note, the key element of fitness, or being in shape, is how well and quickly the heart beat and breathing can return to normal after a near or max effort output.  And if anyone has been doing those 30-60 minutes sessions, check your interval progress against that.  Including energy and recovery time for the following lifting workout.  

If referring to Tri athletes (swimming, biking & running), I am very, very familiar with this sport and with the men and women partaking in these events. And in their protocols of training for such events. San Diego and the whole of SoCal  is a hot bed of Tri events just about every weekend.  Interval training (including Tabata and forms of) has been used in phases of their more serious training, along with traditional  endurance training.  It pretty much has to be a combo of both for most athletes. Even heavier lifting can be included in a training regime. The training target is stamina (endurance + strength) as most coaches and Tri athletes understand.

Good Luck.

[Donny]

All any BB'er has to do is to set up a simple interval program (Tabata in this case...3 to 4 weeks basic) and find out the results on his own body. Checking out the leanness of fat and improved muscular condition that can follow.  For most BB'ers is seems to fill their needs quite well. Also time wise, but if your into 45 minute runs than feel free to seek that pleasure for yourself. If thinking interval/tabata workouts will not get you in near or top BB'ing (talking BB'ing here) condition...sorry but you may be sadly wrong. Grasping a better understanding of the  basic concept of this training method might be needed.

Just to note, the key element of fitness, or being in shape, is how well and quickly the heart beat and breathing can return to normal after a near or max effort output.  And if anyone has been doing those 30-60 minutes sessions, check your interval progress against that.  Including energy and recovery time for the following lifting workout.  

If referring to Tri athletes (swimming, biking & running), I am very, very familiar with this sport and with the men and women partaking in these events. And in their protocols of training for such events. San Diego and the whole of SoCal  is a hot bed of Tri events just about every weekend.  Interval training (including Tabata and forms of) has been used in phases of their more serious training, along with traditional  endurance training.  It pretty much has to be a combo of both for most athletes. Even heavier lifting can be included in a training regime. The training target is stamina (endurance + strength) as most coaches and Tri athletes understand.

Good Luck.

Get back to you in a minute but first i will post on the Mature thread which is more important to me.

[Donny]

All any BB'er has to do is to set up a simple interval program (Tabata in this case...3 to 4 weeks basic) and find out the results on his own body. Checking out the leanness of fat and improved muscular condition that can follow.  For most BB'ers is seems to fill their needs quite well. Also time wise, but if your into 45 minute runs than feel free to seek that pleasure for yourself. If thinking interval/tabata workouts will not get you in near or top BB'ing (talking BB'ing here) condition...sorry but you may be sadly wrong. Grasping a better understanding of the  basic concept of this training method might be needed.

Just to note, the key element of fitness, or being in shape, is how well and quickly the heart beat and breathing can return to normal after a near or max effort output.  And if anyone has been doing those 30-60 minutes sessions, check your interval progress against that.  Including energy and recovery time for the following lifting workout.  

If referring to Tri athletes (swimming, biking & running), I am very, very familiar with this sport and with the men and women partaking in these events. And in their protocols of training for such events. San Diego and the whole of SoCal  is a hot bed of Tri events just about every weekend.  Interval training (including Tabata and forms of) has been used in phases of their more serious training, along with traditional  endurance training.  It pretty much has to be a combo of both for most athletes. Even heavier lifting can be included in a training regime. The training target is stamina (endurance + strength) as most coaches and Tri athletes understand.

Good Luck.

well i can tell from your post you are getting upset ..so i will be gentle with you. Trust me i would gladly go in the ring with you or on the mats because you have not the slightest idea what Endurance and stamina is. I doubt very, very much if you have trained with Triathlon Competitors because you base all your posts on Internet studies which mean nothing. Studies change every year. Real life experience is not found on the Internet. I have trained with Martial Artists,Bodybuilders, a triathlon Competitor, a special forces man(good friend). Later SAS. Do not talk to me about your Tabata or HIIT training i was doing this years ago INTEGRATED with endurance training. you do not seem to grasp this which leads me to the assumption you have never ran or pushed yourself in your life. People like you seem to think cardio is just slow walking or jogging like a snail. Ever went cross country with 35 kilos on your back? No you have not.

[chaos]

Donny lashing out with attacks will get your post deleted.
Keep it civil. 

[Donny]

Donny lashing out with attacks will get your post deleted.
Keep it civil. 

really explain why ?

[chaos]

really explain why ?

First your attempted troll post about the mature thread being more important.
Second your opening line about jpm getting upset, another troll attempt.
Third your second sentence challenging jpm to get in the ring with you, another troll attempt.

Should I go on?

[Donny]

First your attempted troll post about the mature thread being more important.
Second your opening line about jpm getting upset, another troll attempt.
Third your second sentence challenging jpm to get in the ring with you, another troll attempt.

Should I go on?

OK the truth hurts you only step in when your Boy gets in trouble. Why is this Chaos ? Funny on other areas of getbig you shout your mouth off but here it goes by what you say?

[chaos]

OK the truth hurts you only step in when your Boy gets in trouble. Why is this Chaos ? Funny on other areas of getbig you shout your mouth off but here it goes by what you say?

Every board has its own rules and what's allowed. Here we can discuss and debate. If you want to name call, challenge and insult go somewhere else.
Pretty simple.

[Donny]

Every board has its own rules and what's allowed. Here we can discuss and debate. If you want to name call, challenge and insult go somewhere else.
Pretty simple.

well in my opinion that pretty much sums you up a very poor mod on here. you do not discuss things you just give stupid comments and stick up for jpm101. A very misplaced mod on this section and not active. Anyone discusses anything you donīt like itīs deleted or edited.