Author Topic: I discovered something re hypertrophy yesterday and today.  (Read 43742 times)

Teutonic Knight

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Re: I discovered something re hypertrophy yesterday and today.
« Reply #125 on: March 23, 2015, 01:49:32 AM »



 My BRAIN experienced some damage.



No need to tell us  ;D

SF1900

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Re: I discovered something re hypertrophy yesterday and today.
« Reply #126 on: March 23, 2015, 03:39:37 AM »
Well, Coach, you obviously don't know how to conduct yourself in an intellectual discussion. So you have 40 years experience. I have 57. It isn't how long you have been around gyms lifting weights but how long you

have been actively searching for the true theory of hypertrophy. This includes reading the research in the area.

I rather doubt that many of us, and especially you, can even comprehend the scientific literature. Sometimes we need others to interpret the studies.

I haven't seen a single study done on maximum human hypertrophy. Not one. The scientists aren't interested so I doubt they know what the theory is.

It really is amazing that in 2015 people still argue about lifting weights. We have been to the moon and can put 128 Gb of data on a micro SD card but we have no clue about the true theory of hypertrophy

that explains all growth from training and all non-growth as well. Yes, the method had better be a safe one because we have to avoid injuries at all costs.


Lol at scientists not knowing what theory is.

At this point I'd say you're trolling. Or just really stupid and delusional.
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SquatsRule

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Re: I discovered something re hypertrophy yesterday and today.
« Reply #127 on: March 23, 2015, 08:48:37 AM »
 ::)
S

FitnessFrenzy

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Re: I discovered something re hypertrophy yesterday and today.
« Reply #128 on: March 23, 2015, 09:02:47 AM »

King Shizzo

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Re: I discovered something re hypertrophy yesterday and today.
« Reply #129 on: March 23, 2015, 09:15:58 AM »

mr.turbo

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Re: I discovered something re hypertrophy yesterday and today.
« Reply #130 on: March 23, 2015, 12:12:31 PM »
The interesting thing is why does the body sometimes experience DOMS after an exertion? What exactly is happening in the muscles?

If I can walk down stairs and get really sore calves then is that the same kind of DOMS I experience from heavy lifting, especially after a layoff?

Once we know all about the mechanism we can determine the value for hypertrophy.

I am talking about natural bodybuilding here. I rather doubt the pros have much clue about what is responsible for their growth. It could

be many things or a group of things combining to give the huge size.

I was telling an older woman about my theory and she replied that she didn't want to get sore. That was the end of our discussion.

If we go back to our primitive animal ancestors then what purpose did the DOMS have? Is it just something that happens when we do

some unusual exertion? We all know that soon enough the soreness stops and it becomes increasingly more difficult to train hard enough

to experience DOMS. I can tell you that in our gym we have always introduced people to resistance training gradually....so they don't get

DOMS. In the literature on DOMS we find they are looking for ways to reduce the effect not generate it.

About 17 years ago I was training arms to get them bigger. I got to a point where they wouldn't grow any more. About 17 inches.

Then one day I did the lying triceps movement where you support your upper arms on pads. The next day my triceps were quite sore.

A light went on in my brain. Ah, ha! Maybe this is the key to hypertrophy that I have been searching for? So I kept training arms and calves

for 30 days while still sore. Both body parts were growing rapidly. I was so keen I couldn't wait for my next workout. I was getting stronger by the week as

well which pleased me. I trained every 3rd day. Over the month I was growing 1/10" per workout which is impressive. Then I had to end

the experiment. I was putting my elbows on the pads like Larry Scott and everyone else did. Nope, I damaged the sheath that goes over

the elbows. Now I know you never put your elbows on a surface under tension. Keep elbows clear of all pads just like we do with the knees

when we do lying leg curls. My Achilles tendons experienced some damage. I was doing multiple sets with up to 700 pounds for 60

bouncing reps. I discovered that ballistic movements can be dangerous. I put on over an inch on my calves doing that. So I would modify

what I was doing but still try to generate DOMS.

I doubt anyone would want to try this for all body parts during a week. Nope, just target a couple of body parts.


DOMS is a feedback mechanism that you feel should be incorporated into an idealized training system. It's a vaguely defined concept like "failure". Specifically, DOMS is associated with eccentric loading and we assume it indicates that there's sufficient stimulus in the prior workout.

I gather the idea is; optimal mechanical loading is dependent on certain (difficult to measure) sensory feedback mechanisms like intensity and failure, and DOMS is one of them too. These concepts are cognitive as much as mechanical. If you can eliminate the cognitive aspects (subjective) then the data becomes more reliable.

If DOMS indicates sufficient stimulus then clearly you need to identify the feedback mechanism that indicates excess stimulus.

Physical injury doesn't cut it.

 
"

Coach is Back!

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Re: I discovered something re hypertrophy yesterday and today.
« Reply #131 on: March 23, 2015, 12:24:53 PM »
DOMS is a feedback mechanism that you feel should be incorporated into an idealized training system. It's a vaguely defined concept like "failure". Specifically, DOMS is associated with eccentric loading and we assume it indicates that there's sufficient stimulus in the prior workout.

I gather the idea is; optimal mechanical loading is dependent on certain (difficult to measure) sensory feedback mechanisms like intensity and failure, and DOMS is one of them too. These concepts are cognitive as much as mechanical. If you can eliminate the cognitive aspects (subjective) then the data becomes more reliable.

If DOMS indicates sufficient stimulus then clearly you need to identify the feedback mechanism that indicates excess stimulus.

Physical injury doesn't cut it.

 

Explain eccentric, concentric and isometric to Vince. He just knows up, down and stuck.

mr.turbo

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Re: I discovered something re hypertrophy yesterday and today.
« Reply #132 on: March 23, 2015, 03:17:14 PM »
Explain eccentric, concentric and isometric to Vince. He just knows up, down and stuck.

vince seems a little cranky

he doesn't like to discuss and explain his ideas too much. 
"

Teutonic Knight

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Re: I discovered something re hypertrophy yesterday and today.
« Reply #133 on: March 23, 2015, 07:58:44 PM »
vince seems a little cranky

he doesn't like to discuss and explain his ideas too much. 

Especially if involves DIETING & hypertrophy  ;D ;D ;D

Vince B

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Re: I discovered something re hypertrophy yesterday and today.
« Reply #134 on: March 23, 2015, 08:26:10 PM »
Explain eccentric, concentric and isometric to Vince. He just knows up, down and stuck.

LOL. Guys like the Coach don't have the vocabulary to comprehend anything too complicated.


Vince B

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Re: I discovered something re hypertrophy yesterday and today.
« Reply #135 on: March 23, 2015, 08:35:49 PM »
vince seems a little cranky

he doesn't like to discuss and explain his ideas too much. 

I am hardly cranky. I have explained in plenty of detail what my theory is but most people

can't comprehend what it is all about. They want sets and reps sort of explanations.

One would hope that a theory should be sufficient for intelligent people to apply.

Have a look at this thread. Some guys keep attacking whatever I say but I totally ignore them.

That is the opposite of being cranky.

SF1900

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Re: I discovered something re hypertrophy yesterday and today.
« Reply #136 on: March 23, 2015, 10:18:09 PM »
vince seems a little cranky

he doesn't like to discuss and explain his ideas too much. 

The funny thing is that he has a theory, yet if it works so well, why does Basile look like shit?  ???
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mr.turbo

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Re: I discovered something re hypertrophy yesterday and today.
« Reply #137 on: March 23, 2015, 10:28:21 PM »
I am hardly cranky. I have explained in plenty of detail what my theory is but most people

can't comprehend what it is all about. They want sets and reps sort of explanations.

One would hope that a theory should be sufficient for intelligent people to apply.

Have a look at this thread. Some guys keep attacking whatever I say but I totally ignore them.

That is the opposite of being cranky.


Arthur Jones put a lot of effort into explaining and demonstrating his ideas and training principles. He even wrote about DOMS and soreness as an indicator of sufficient training. I don't think he claimed to have any type of new theory. He just took a more careful approach to developing his machines and so on.

Having an intuition is not a theory so it creates confusion when you use this terminology. This could be excused if you produced something that solves a problem.  It's not clear what the problem being solved is though either....hmmmm

"

mr.turbo

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Re: I discovered something re hypertrophy yesterday and today.
« Reply #138 on: March 23, 2015, 10:38:14 PM »
The funny thing is that he has a theory, yet if it works so well, why does Basile look like shit?  ???

vince gets injured whenever he tries out his theories.  There's probably something to it but they system needs refinement because we don't know when to stop training.  Unless we're missing something... ???
"

Vince B

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Re: I discovered something re hypertrophy yesterday and today.
« Reply #139 on: March 23, 2015, 10:48:54 PM »
Arthur Jones put a lot of effort into explaining and demonstrating his ideas and training principles. He even wrote about DOMS and soreness as an indicator of sufficient training. I don't think he claimed to have any type of new theory. He just took a more careful approach to developing his machines and so on.

Having an intuition is not a theory so it creates confusion when you use this terminology. This could be excused if you produced something that solves a problem.  It's not clear what the problem being solved is though either....hmmmm



Arthur Jones was a genius. The smartest guy to get involved in the Iron Game and the gym equipment industry. He was a logical and clear thinker and didn't care about formal education and PhD degrees.

He was mistaken about how muscles contract. He used the analogy of a train with box cars representing sections of each fiber. Unfortunately, the sliding filament theory is more correct so Jones had a

false premise and his HIT system collapses because of it. He stressed the concept of intensity and did experiments on strength and hypertrophy. He told Ray Mentzer he would rather spend money on research than

pay the government taxes!

Arthur and everyone else missed the importance of DOMS. Mr Turbo believes one needs to quantify a term before it can be called scientific. That isn't quite true. Sometimes the best that we have are approximations.

Let us do a thought experiment. If we take a subject with 17 inch arms who has tried everything to get bigger arms but failed. Would this person be able to use the DOMS method to gain an inch in a month?

I have no doubt at all. As long as he followed my protocols which include some special isolating exercises. If I can produce results then my theory is sound. What surprises me is how reluctant so many are to

even try my method. The Coach believes he has enough experience to know just by reading something whether it will work or not. Even the Coach can be mistaken. I challenge everyone here to

do an experiment for at least 2 weeks using the DOMS method on arms. Get both biceps and triceps sore and keep them sore for the two weeks or preferably 4 weeks and see how you go. You must increase

your body weight along the way.

SF1900

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Re: I discovered something re hypertrophy yesterday and today.
« Reply #140 on: March 23, 2015, 10:59:59 PM »
vince gets injured whenever he tries out his theories.  There's probably something to it but they system needs refinement because we don't know when to stop training.  Unless we're missing something... ???

what he needs it actual scientific evidence. According to Basile, the way scientists use the term theory is wrong. All those Harvard and Yale scientists are wrong lol. According to Basile, they are not using the term "theory" correctly lol. Maybe they can learn something from Basile.

Basile is a deluded idiot who is still chasing hypertrophy at his age while looking really bad.  You know your life is sad when your his age and you're still arguing with people on the internet about hypertrophy lol
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Vince B

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Re: I discovered something re hypertrophy yesterday and today.
« Reply #141 on: March 23, 2015, 11:13:41 PM »
Lol at scientists not knowing what theory is.

At this point I'd say you're trolling. Or just really stupid and delusional.

You are a bona fide dope. That isn't what I wrote. Arguing with ignorant people who can't comprehend simple English is a waste of time.

SF1900

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Re: I discovered something re hypertrophy yesterday and today.
« Reply #142 on: March 23, 2015, 11:21:38 PM »
You are a bona fide dope. That isn't what I wrote. Arguing with ignorant people who can't comprehend simple English is a waste of time.

You wrote to me and OMR that you use the term "theory" much differently than the scientific community, you deluded moron.

There is only one way to use the term theory according to current scientific understanding. If you're using it differently, then you in fact are assuming to know something they don't know.

I think its a waste of time that you're 70, look like utter garbage and rigged your own bodybuilding show.  :D And that you're 70+ arguing with strangers on the internet about your "theory." You're a sad individual.
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Vince B

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Re: I discovered something re hypertrophy yesterday and today.
« Reply #143 on: March 23, 2015, 11:27:30 PM »
You wrote to me and OMR that you use the term "theory" much differently than the scientific community, you deluded moron.

There is only one way to use the term theory according to current scientific understanding. If you're using it differently, then you in fact are assuming to know something they don't know.

I think its a waste of time that you're 70, look like utter garbage and rigged your own bodybuilding show.  :D And that you're 70+ arguing with strangers on the internet about your "theory." You're a sad individual.

I wasn't talking about how scientists use the term 'theory'. I stated that scientists don't have a complete theory about hypertrophy. That is what they don't know.

I am quite familiar with how the concept is used in the philosophy of science because I have a masters degree in the subject.

When someone refutes my theory I will change or abandon it. So far no one has come close to doing any damage to the DOMS theory.

mr.turbo

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Re: I discovered something re hypertrophy yesterday and today.
« Reply #144 on: March 23, 2015, 11:58:07 PM »
Never seen a machine that could load the muscle eccentrically.  

you need to train the individual muscle with a lot of variability because it seems it's the repetition of  movements is what harms the joints....hmmm
"

Teutonic Knight

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Re: I discovered something re hypertrophy yesterday and today.
« Reply #145 on: March 24, 2015, 12:05:24 AM »
I am hardly cranky. I have explained in plenty of detail what my theory is but most people

can't comprehend what it is all about. They want sets and reps sort of explanations.

One would hope that a theory should be sufficient for intelligent people to apply.

Have a look at this thread. Some guys keep attacking whatever I say but I totally ignore them.

That is the opposite of being cranky.


Really  ::), U a lying to your self   ::)

Already forgetting  Manly beach "penthouse" topic  ::)

 ;D


Teutonic Knight

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Re: I discovered something re hypertrophy yesterday and today.
« Reply #146 on: March 24, 2015, 12:08:56 AM »


 You must increase
your body weight along the way.[/color]

and how is yours & Rozs "bodyweight" (read FAT) ;D

Teutonic Knight

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Re: I discovered something re hypertrophy yesterday and today.
« Reply #147 on: March 24, 2015, 12:12:50 AM »
I wasn't talking about how scientists use the term 'theory'. I stated that scientists don't have a complete theory about hypertrophy. That is what they don't know.

I am quite familiar with how the concept is used in the philosophy of science because I have a masters degree in the subject.

When someone refutes my theory I will change or abandon it. So far no one has come close to doing any damage to the DOMS theory.


I could call Zorba & ask for his opinion about hypershitty theory  ;)

Vince B

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Re: I discovered something re hypertrophy yesterday and today.
« Reply #148 on: March 24, 2015, 12:55:25 AM »
Never seen a machine that could load the muscle eccentrically.  

you need to train the individual muscle with a lot of variability because it seems it's the repetition of  movements is what harms the joints....hmmm

I have seen two lines of equipment that increase the load in the eccentric part of the movement. The best were the electronic machines built by

Life Fitness way back in 1991. You did one test rep and it determined what resistance you needed to complete only 12 reps. You could increase

the eccentric resistance to 125% of the concentric load. The best circuit ever for gyms but sadly discontinued.


http://www.ibi-fitness.com/whatis.html

mr.turbo

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Re: I discovered something re hypertrophy yesterday and today.
« Reply #149 on: March 24, 2015, 12:59:12 AM »
Arthur Jones was a genius. The smartest guy to get involved in the Iron Game and the gym equipment industry. He was a logical and clear thinker and didn't care about formal education and PhD degrees.

He was mistaken about how muscles contract. He used the analogy of a train with box cars representing sections of each fiber. Unfortunately, the sliding filament theory is more correct so Jones had a

false premise and his HIT system collapses because of it. He stressed the concept of intensity and did experiments on strength and hypertrophy. He told Ray Mentzer he would rather spend money on research than

pay the government taxes!

Arthur and everyone else missed the importance of DOMS. Mr Turbo believes one needs to quantify a term before it can be called scientific. That isn't quite true. Sometimes the best that we have are approximations.

Let us do a thought experiment. If we take a subject with 17 inch arms who has tried everything to get bigger arms but failed. Would this person be able to use the DOMS method to gain an inch in a month?

I have no doubt at all. As long as he followed my protocols which include some special isolating exercises. If I can produce results then my theory is sound. What surprises me is how reluctant so many are to

even try my method. The Coach believes he has enough experience to know just by reading something whether it will work or not. Even the Coach can be mistaken. I challenge everyone here to

do an experiment for at least 2 weeks using the DOMS method on arms. Get both biceps and triceps sore and keep them sore for the two weeks or preferably 4 weeks and see how you go. You must increase

your body weight along the way.


If a muscle is being exercised regularly, it will quickly become so accustomed to heavy workloads that it will be almost impossible to induce even a slight degree of muscular soreness; thus, if muscular soreness is produced in an area of the body that has been trained for as long as a week, this is a clear indication that you have not been training hard enough – or that you have been performing the movements improperly.

http://www.arthurjonesexercise.com/Bulletin1/26.PDF

 ???
"