SATANIC TEMPLE DEBUTS NEW STATUE!!

[Man of Steel]

Define "Come to know the reality of Jesus Christ today..."

Come to understand without a doubt that God is real and Jesus Christ rose from the dead and lives today. 

[Agnostic007]

Come to understand without a doubt that God is real and Jesus Christ rose from the dead and lives today. 

absolutely.. but you and I both know it's a loaded question.

[Man of Steel]

absolutely.. but you and I both know it's a loaded question.

Help me understand why it's loaded? 

[Agnostic007]

well forgive me if I make this assumption, but it's based on 22 million conversations of similar nature with other Christians...

You: If I can prove Jesus is real will you accept him?

Me: Of course, who in their right minds would refuse Jesus if he were real? Who would want to go to hell for eternity and not heaven? That's just ignorant!

You: If you really really really open your heart to Jesus and ask him to come in he will, and he will reveal himself to you (And read these apologetic books I've listed for you)

Me: Tried it, didn't work

You: You're just not open to him. It's your fault because you're not letting him in

Me: Didn't see that coming..


If that's NOT what you had in mind, I apologize and I'm listening   

[Man of Steel]

well forgive me if I make this assumption, but it's based on 22 million conversations of similar nature with other Christians...

You: If I can prove Jesus is real will you accept him?

Me: Of course, who in their right minds would refuse Jesus if he were real? Who would want to go to hell for eternity and not heaven? That's just ignorant!

You: If you really really really open your heart to Jesus and ask him to come in he will, and he will reveal himself to you (And read these apologetic books I've listed for you)

Me: Tried it, didn't work

You: You're just not open to him. It's your fault because you're not letting him in

Me: Didn't see that coming..


If that's NOT what you had in mind, I apologize and I'm listening  

We could "what if" and role play any number of dialogues, but I'm more interested in wanting to know if folks personally desire to know the God and follow him and let him lead their lives.   That they're ready to turn from their sin, be forgiven and start a new life in which God is in control.

I don't want to see anyone separated from God in eternity, but it just isn't up to me.  Often times it takes some folks time to think things through and clarify some questions.  People that desire to know more about God engage in a church, begin reading scripture, read online materials and speak to other believers.

I know the reality of God, but I don't know the contents of people's hearts....only God and that person know that.   Scripture isn't a book of magical spells as avxo so crudely defines it.  A person can recite "Jesus I want to be saved, come into my heart" and never mean a word of it.  The humility and sincerity is not for me to judge; yet, in time new believers often reveal their true intentions....their words and actions always vet them out.  I've known plenty of folks that get caught up in the emotion of a church service and walk the aisle or give their life to Christ in that service and a less than a week later have turned from it completely never to go back.  It's like old expression "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink".  I'm powerless against insincerity and a non-desirous heart.

[ritch]

can someone photoshop the statue to have "two in the pink, one in the stink?" then put a pic of our good buddy Dan Hill somewhere in the back.

The good lord will thank you and be more likely to grant you into his kingdom when you croak.

[Agnostic007]

We could "what if" and role play any number of dialogues, but I'm more interested in wanting to know if folks personally desire to know the God and follow him and let him lead their lives.   That they're ready to turn from their sin, be forgiven and start a new life in which God is in control.

I don't want to see anyone separated from God in eternity, but it just isn't up to me.  Often times it takes some folks time to think things through and clarify some questions.  People that desire to know more about God engage in a church, begin reading scripture, read online materials and speak to other believers.

I know the reality of God, but I don't know the contents of people's hearts....only God and that person know that.   Scripture isn't a book of magical spells as avxo so crudely defines it.  A person can recite "Jesus I want to be saved, come into my heart" and never mean a word of it.  The humility and sincerity is not for me to judge; yet, in time new believers often reveal their true intentions....their words and actions always vet them out.  I've known plenty of folks that get caught up in the emotion of a church service and walk the aisle or give their life to Christ in that service and a less than a week later have turned from it completely never to go back.  It's like old expression "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink".  I'm powerless against insincerity and a non-desirous heart.

If god existed, if Jesus was sent to this earth from god, yeah, I'd be up for that. I just don't believe the evidence supports the claim that's all. If you provide the compelling, empirical evidence, I'll be happy to review it

[Man of Steel]

If god existed, if Jesus was sent to this earth from god, yeah, I'd be up for that. I just don't believe the evidence supports the claim that's all. If you provide the compelling, empirical evidence, I'll be happy to review it

I can't promise compelling...that's up the individual, but empirical evidence is my testimony.....from another thread:

Ok, so I hit rock bottom in July 2010 when I was hurt in a freak accident at home.  I came home one day at noon to take care of my newborn daughter and relieve my wife who needed to get to work and catch up on a morning missed.   My wife left, I placed my daughter in her crib upstairs and as I was coming back downstairs I somehow misstepped and fell down the stairs and obliterated my left knee and quad.   Tore the quad off the knee, tore all the muscles around the knee, my knee was dislocated.....I was in bad shape.  I spent the next two weeks at home trying to recover before realizing I needed to get surgery to repair the injury that wasn't going to heal on its own.  I got surgery and then returned home for another two weeks of total immobility (against doctor recommendation by the way). 

Now, let me take a step back prior to the accident and explain the few years before it.  More specifically, let me explain the man that I was.   During that period in my life I had basically walked away from God.  Now I was raised in a Christian home and became a believer around 12, but did not live my life for Christ.   During my mid 20s and early 30s I became very angry, very cynical, very moody, often depressed, began watching pornography frequently, began lashing out at family and friends…..I was a mean person.   I never thought of God on my own.  I never sought God.  I just remained bitter, angry, depressed and often with a desire for violent behavior.  I hated my life and I occasionally thought of ending my marriage or my life.   Still, the thing that tormented me, was what I can only describe as a whisper in my ear…….EVERY SINGLE DAY…..the same, simple repeating question, “Are you really a Christian?  Do you really believe this God stuff?”   It didn’t come from me.  It was if it was consistently placed in my mind.   Was I the worst guy on the planet?  No, but I was still a wretch….a depressed, angry, self-pitying, God rejecting wretch of a man.

So fast forward back to my accident…..I’ve had the surgery to fix my obliterated leg…..

During that post-surgical period I became extremely depressed, exceptionally moody, extremely angry, extremely bitter and extremely hostile.  Praise God for my wife who cared for me and our 6 month old daughter.  I spent that first month after the accident downstairs in a chair.  I slept upright, barely ate a thing, pee’d in jars (because I didn’t want to move) and eventually refused to move altogether.  Depression completely overcame me......doom overcame me.   I told my wife I was ready to die.  Suicide was on my mind often and my wife began hiding my pain medication (which I needed).   This mindset was completely illogical and irrational, but that didn't matter to me.  I was slowly giving up my life and demonic oppression had full control of me.  Why demonic forces concentrated heavily on me at that time I would not understand or even recognize until a short time later.  I spent nights literally enveloped in darkness, self-pity and depression.  Nothing raised my spirits.  I quite eating.  I stunk to high heaven.  I didn't use the bathroom for a week at a time.  Then one evening I had no choice but to get up and go to the bathroom.  While in the bathroom I looked at my face and it was grayish-white.  My strength was gone.  My hope was gone.  I was a shadow of my former self.   I had moved literally 12 steps from the little bed I finally had downstairs to the bathroom and I felt like I had run a marathon.  I couldn't catch my breathe for 2.5 hours.  My wife stayed with me all that night and the next morning I knew I was dying.  She called EMS and they rushed me to the ER.  Doctors found massive blood clots in my legs and a massive saddle-type pulmonary embolism in my lungs....largest that staff of doctors and nurses had ever seen.  Doctors prepared my wife and family for the worst.  Although, through the power of prayer from family and friends and a wonderful team of doctors and nurses the Lord delivered me from the ER in 2.5 days and I was moved to recovery in the progressive care unit.  One doctor was pretty shocked actually!!   He had already begun prepping my family for the end.

Now, I was feeling slightly better, but depression and oppression still had me firmly.  It was the 3rd night in the hospital and my wife was comforting and encouraging me.  She left the room for a bit and alone in that hospital room I realized in an instant that I needed Jesus Christ to help take whatever this darkness was from me.  So, I did something I’d never done in my life.  Alone, I lifted my arms in the air and surrendered my life aloud to Jesus Christ right then and there. 



Then it happened…….BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!!!   



The Holy Spirit of God filled my hospital room and completely enveloped me.  The Lord’s presence was so thick in that room it felt like I was moving through water or some kind of glorious energy (hard to explain).  Then my injured leg began to tingle from the top of my surgical incision down to the tips of my toes (only that leg).  I knew in that moment that I was healed and that I would recover fully.  The presence of the Lord was POWERFUL in that room!!  Well,  I left the hospital 2 days later and spent the next 4 months in physical therapy learning to rewalk and break the scar tissue in my leg so it would bend again.  That was followed with 18 months of blood thinner injections and blood draws, but I was healed…I knew it and praise God!!!   

Now, I knew my body would recover, but more importantly my spirit was healed!!  I was washed clean!   During those early months I spent some of the sweetest times of private prayer and worship at home alone recovering.  Just me and the Lord.  I felt the presence of God with me daily during that time.  He would envelop me and comfort me and encourage me.    My depression was gone!!  The demonic forces that sought to destroy me were chased away!!   My hope was renewed!!  I was overflowing with joy!!  My God had saved my soul and changed me completely!!  From that point forward I have been growing my faith and knowledge and sharing the gospel of Christ with others.

Now one aspect of that experience I haven’t shared with many folks was revealed to me by my father several months later.  The day after that incredible encounter with the Holy Spirit my family came to visit me and my father (a strong Christian man) entered the hospital room and I remember he looked at me funny, but kept interacting with me relatively normally….I just dismissed it and never thought about it again.  It was months later we would sit down to talk and he would  tell me that when he entered that room and looked at me he saw what looked like a translucent glow that was engulfing me.  He said he looked at my wife and mother and the nurse and thought, “is anyone else seeing this?”  They actually weren’t seeing it, but my father shared this experience with my aunt (another strong Christian woman) and she would tell us, "Boys, that was the Shekinah glory of God!!".   The term Shekinah glory is not found in scripture, it was later coined by the jews to describe the visible, physical manifestation of God’s power and presence upon someone or something.

After that time I was filled with joy, but I was attacked by demonic forces regularly.   It’s scary to awaken in the middle of the night and feel evil lurking above you, pressing in on you, but I learned quickly about the power of prayer and the power of the name of the Lord.  At first I would call upon him in my mind and WHOOOOSH!!  The demonic darkness was gone and his presence was left there holding me in warmth and tingling…..AWESOME!!  The late night attacks continued….they grew more intense as I would share my faith on this board and with others outside of it.   So many nights around 3AM (the “witching hour”) I would awaken to a thick, tangible presence of demonic evil and darkness around me, but I became BOLD in the Lord and would rebuke these forces aloud with confidence in the Lord Jesus Christ and boy would they flee in fear!!   Still on occasion today they’ll try and mess with me, but they lose every single time because I am a child of God….I am one of his redeemed….I am his and his alone!!  WHEW!!  LOVE IT!!!

Today I just share and defend my faith in Christ Jesus….it’s who I am, but I trust in the Lord’s will to take me to next best place for my life wherever that may be.   

And the whispering of the past…..the demonic thoughts that were dropped into my mind, “, “Are you really a Christian?  Do you really believe this God stuff?”   That doubt and oppression is all gone thanks to the my Lord and Savior.  And far as the answers to those questions are concerned, they are now and forevermore “Thank you Jesus YES!!” and “Praise God YES I believe!!”

[Agnostic007]

That would or could be empirical evidence for you , for anyone else it is antidotal evidence, which is way way way down on the list of types of evidence.

[Man of Steel]

That would or could be empirical evidence for you , for anyone else it is antidotal evidence, which is way way way down on the list of types of evidence.

Well from a perspective of scientific study anecdotal evidence is the worst form of the evidence; fortunately we're referring to a spiritual study and testimonial evidence of divine, transcendent occurences is a superior form of evidence to consider.  In this case scientific methodology is the worst approach.  It's an altogether different playing field and must be approached differently than you would the pursuit of a subatomic particle.  If the demand is a scientific approach to gathering evidence it will always be lacking.  I wouldn't go looking for evidence of God at CERN anymore than I would evidence of a pentaquark at church or in scripture or from a body of believers.  It's just two different things.

[Agnostic007]

Well from a perspective of scientific study anecdotal evidence is the worst form of the evidence; fortunately we're referring to a spiritual study and testimonial evidence of divine, transcendent occurences is a superior form of evidence to consider.  In this case scientific methodology is the worst approach.  It's an altogether different playing field and must be approached differently than you would the pursuit of a subatomic particle.  If the demand is a scientific approach to gathering evidence it will always be lacking.  I wouldn't go looking for evidence of God at CERN anymore than I would evidence of a pentaquark at church or in scripture or from a body of believers.  It's just two different things.

yes, it probably will..

[Man of Steel]

If god existed, if Jesus was sent to this earth from god, yeah, I'd be up for that. I just don't believe the evidence supports the claim that's all. If you provide the compelling, empirical evidence, I'll be happy to review it

What do you require as sufficient evidence for the claim?  What is the claim? 

[Agnostic007]

What do you require as sufficient evidence for the claim?  What is the claim? 

The claim - The biblical God actually exists and.. impregnated a virgin with his seed causing his son to be born, who performed miracles until his untimely death around the age of 33 give or take a year or two in order to be the sacrificial lamb once and for all to wash away the sins of those who believe the story. Pretty much that is the claim in a nutshell 

[ritch]

can someone photoshop the statue to have "two in the pink, one in the stink?" then put a pic of our good buddy Dan Hill somewhere in the back.

The good lord will thank you and be more likely to grant you into his kingdom when you croak.

bump

[Man of Steel]

The claim - The biblical God actually exists and.. impregnated a virgin with his seed causing his son to be born, who performed miracles until his untimely death around the age of 33 give or take a year or two in order to be the sacrificial lamb once and for all to wash away the sins of those who believe the story. Pretty much that is the claim in a nutshell 

And the other?

[SF1900]

Anecdotal evidence, for the most part, is shit. Our senses deceive us. They cannot be trusted at every single moment.

Show 10 people the same scenario, wait 1 hour, and interview all 10 people and tell them to recount the scenario. Guess what? You pretty much get 10 different stories. Perception is subjective, and our senses cannot always be the best form of data. Even in courts, eyewitness testimony is not the best form of evidence. Forensic research has shown this.

Thus, I have no reason to trust the anecdotal evidence of theists.

God will never be proven under strict scientific conditions. Until then, there is no sufficient reason to believe.