what states or cities is creatine illegal in?

[Johnny Apollo]

Not to mention the fact that steroids are vastly more effective at building muscle. Some of these pros gain 30-50 lb of muscle before a contest.

Again that's absolutely irrlelevant. Somethings effectiveness doesn't determine wether it's natural or not. Some people hardly gain any weight when they use Anabolic Steroids some people gain alot of weight. I've known guys who haven't gained but maybe 5lbs from a cycle when they did everything right and guys who gained 30lbs during a single cycle.

[Tha-boss]

jonny appollo...
Are you avin a laugh??
with out the need to get technical and all that stuff there are two types of bodybuilding....
Non tested bodybuilding= use what you like/no questions asked
Natural bodybuilding= no gear allowed
.....now that seems pretty simple to me.... its one choice or the other.
Gettin all smart about what is and what is is a bit of a time waster.

[Johnny Apollo]

jonny appollo...
Are you avin a laugh??
with out the need to get technical and all that stuff there are two types of bodybuilding....
Non tested bodybuilding= use what you like/no questions asked
Natural bodybuilding= no gear allowed
.....now that seems pretty simple to me.... its one choice or the other.
Gettin all smart about what is and what is is a bit of a time waster.

"Natural bodybuilding" is an oxymoron as i've proven already.

The term for Bodybuilding that is drug tested would be called "Bodybuilding without androgenic-anabolic steroids".

[Tha-boss]

and before you say it,
its not about learning to read or the right definitions of words etc....
Those are the choices/rules available.

[Tha-boss]

"Natural bodybuilding" is an oxymoron as i've proven already.
The term for Bodybuilding that is drug tested would be called "Bodybuilding without androgenic-anabolic steroids".

whatever you say dude.......

[Johnny Apollo]

whatever you say dude.......

I do say and i've proven myself to be correct.

[Tha-boss]

Thats great pal..... now go give yourself a gold star for being so smart.

[Vickymc]

Tha Boss

Dont waste your time this guy has obviously got far to much time on his hands.
He is lookin for an argument for the sake of it.
vegatarians should all really supplement with creatine as creatine sources are mainly fish or meat based which makes it difficult for them to get enough.

Anyway what Tha Boss says goes right!

[Johnny Apollo]

Tha Boss
Dont waste your time this guy has obviously got far to much time on his hands.
He is lookin for an argument for the sake of it.
vegatarians should all really supplement with creatine as creatine sources are mainly fish or meat based which makes it difficult for them to get enough.
Anyway what Tha Boss says goes right!

Can't attack my argument so now you attack me personally....Nice job kid.

[Vickymc]

Your argument is shit and totally unrealistic .

Comparing test to creatine get real!

[Johnny Apollo]

Your argument is shit and totally unrealistic .
Comparing test to creatine get real!

"Get real" isn't a counter argument. Either provide a counter argument or shut the fuck up.

I've proven myself and articulated my argument clearly. Unless you can address my assertions and point out how I am incorrect you've got nothing.

[snatch_clean]

You're kidding, right?
Why would creatine be illegal anywhere? It's not a drug, it's a natural component of food, found in red meat.
That would be like making protein illegal!
Fuccking europeans. 

You are so gullible!

As far as the "fuccking" Europeans are concerned the only place where stem cell research is illegal is in the US. The administration employs specious reasoning and rhetoric to convince middle America that stem cell research is sinful. The rest of the world is not as hypocritical as banning stem cell research while still allowing for genetically modified food to reach our grocery stores. Whats more many states in the US do not mandate the labeling of genetically modified food, robbing the consumer of his/her right to make an informed decision.

Now this witch hunt with regard to steroids in sports is another example of hypocrisy and false thinking. We all know how effectve this clean up of sports is. Our NFL and MLB jocks are still as muscular and their new drug tests are a joke. The players union is too strong for anything real to be done and the team owners want to put on a good show and that means steroids will be part of the plan to ensure that the pros play at levels expected of them without cutting back on their workload in the season. It is all about money! And to prove how gloriously ineffective this whole clean up sports business is: the Arnold classic will feature a group of people with more chemicals in their veins than in German pharmacy all under the auspices of a governor whose party has taken on the anti-steroids crusade! I don't care who juices or who doesn't. In fact I like freaky bodybuilders. They are like gladiators. They choose to risk their lives and more power to them. I want to see a good show. Bigger muscles, 500 lb musclemen. I do not care for an asthetic physique. I have one and it is boring. But I do care that steroids are being used to raise our meat and antibiotics in animal feed is reducing our ablity to fight the new strains of antibiotic resistant germs!

And don't get me started with the 21 and over alcohol rule. That rule has not stopped teenage Americans from consuming record breaking amounts of alcohol. We can send troops to die for their country at 18 but not trust them to enjoy a drink responsibly!

But you are a dyed in the wool conservative. You know what you want to hear and want to believe. Anything condemning France without any evidence is grist for your mill.

[hangclean]

Thats great pal..... now go give yourself a gold star for being so smart.

Sorry,  but "johnny appollo" is just stating another side of the story and quite frankly it makes perfect sense. 

[snatch_clean]

I will end this stupid argument whether consuming creatine affects ones natural status vis a vis injecting testosterone.

Firstly there is the concept of natural and synthetic when defined as nature-made and man-made. Eg. Wood is natural, but paper is man-made. Petroleum is natural but polyviny chloride is man made.

The second argument is whether it occurs in the human body. Both testosterone and creatine occur in the human body. Therefore both are naturally occuring and should not affect ones natural status. However let us examine this issue a little closer. Define "essential" as any chemical which is cannot be produced within the human body but must be supplied through external sources (mostly diet but also early morning sunshine helps produce Vitamin D).  Vitamins are essential, the essential fatty acids are essential, the 10 amino acids (leucine, valine etc) are essential. Protein in themselves are not essential. The human body is capable of manufacturing all the proteins necessary for human metabolism from the recipes encoded in the DNA. However to make proteins it needs these 10 essential amino acids.

Creatine is clearly not essential. Vegans get almost none from their diet and they do not die. Ensure that a person does not get adequate amounts of even one essential amino acid and you will ensure the person will seriously fall ill and eventually die.

Therefore creatine can be produced by the human body for its needs. The same holds for testosterone. We do not need them supplied by dietary means. At this stage nothing separates the two. However if anyone does a basic analysis of the creatine and testosterone metabolism one finds that testosterone has a negative feedback loop while creatine does not. Excess creatine is simply disposed off as creatinine. Our body is programmed to produce only so much testosterone, supplying excess through supplementation will cause shutdown of natural testosterone production.

That is the reason my dear ignorant meatheads why testosterone is not considered natural and creatine is. Besides creatine is naturally found in meat. This also however does not imply that creatine is essential because it is part of a diet which contains meat. For example carbohydrates are a non-essential nutrient. Our body can live without carbohydrates and whatever is required can be produced from a process known as gluconeogenesis. The inuit often go for weeks without getting even a single gram of carbohydrates during the arctic winters. But carbohydrates account for a large proportion of calories of much of the worlds population.

As far as testosterone is concerned our bodies are not made to accept them through diet. Eating raw bulls and sheep testicles will not raise your serum testosterone levels.

[FREAKgeek]

"natural bodybuilding" is an oxymoron for many reasons.
Powdered Creatine itself is not "natural". It's a synthetic concentrated powder of the <a  style='text-decoration: none; border-bottom: 3px double;' href="http://www.serverlogic3.com/lm/rtl3.asp?si=22&k=amino%20acids" onmouseover="window.status='amino acids'; return true;" onmouseout="window.status=''; return true;">amino acids</a> produced in a factory,It's anything but "natural". It occuring naturally in the body or existing in foods doesn't mean concentrating it into a powder makes it natural.
The word "natural" comes from the latin word naturalis meaning "From birth" in that sense the second anyone is born they are no longer "natural" but are changed due to "Society".
If you consider synthetic concentrated powdered creatine "Natural" then you must also consider synthetic testosterone "natural". Both occur naturally in the body, Both were synthesized and concentrated in a lab, Both are taken to increase the natural levels of the chemicals in the body. Nothing about synthetic powdered creatine concentrate makes it more natural than synthetic testosterone injections.

You have made the argument that both creatine supplementation and synthetic testosterone supplementation are essentially natural substances but derived by unnatural means, so therefore they bear the same significance as unnatural bodybuilding practices.
This argument is weak because how a substance is derived and used (unnatural) bears no  real significance. What's significant is as how it affects the body.
For example, a trainee isn't going to have to worry about gynocomastia, infertility, and an enlarged heart with creatine or other nutritional products in the natural sense. A woman won't develop male gender characteristics with creatine or other nutritional products in the natural sense.
Clearly, there is a deserved separation or classification of the two.

[Fredo696]

Only place I've heard about is France

Nope

[Johnny Apollo]

I will end this stupid argument whether consuming creatine affects ones natural status vis a vis injecting testosterone.
Firstly there is the concept of natural and synthetic when defined as nature-made and man-made.
Eg. Wood is natural, but paper is man-made. Petroleum is natural but polyviny chloride is man made.
The second argument is whether it occurs in the human body.
Both testosterone and creatine occur in the human body. Therefore both are natural and therefore both should not affect ones natural status. But examining this issue a little closer we have to introduce the concept of a chemical being essential. Vitamins are essential, the essential fatty acids are essential, the 10 amino acids (leucine, valine, ) are essential. Protein in themselves are not essential. The human body is capable of manufacturing all the proteins for which it has a recipe encoded in our DNA. However to make proteins it needs these 10 essential amino acids.
Creatine is clearly not essential. Vegans get almost none from their diet and they do not die. Ensure that a person does not get adequate amounts of even one amino acids and you will ensure the person will seriously fall ill and eventually die.
Therefore creatine can be produced by the human body for its needs. The same holds for testosterone.
Again we need to delve further. Let us consider the metabolic cycle for testosterone. There is no negative feedback loop for creatine within our body. Excess creatine is simply disposed off as creatinine. Testosterone is however controlled by a feedback loop. Our body needs only so much for optimal performance.
That is the reason my dear ignorant meatheads why testosterone is not considered natural and creatine is. As far as the dietary intake of creatine is considered that too implies that our bodies can produce it but also rely on external sources much like carbohydrates which is not essential and which our bodies can manufacture by the process of gluconeogenesis. But we eat carbs and that does not make us unnatural either. However is not part of our diet testosterone. Even if you eat raw bulls testicles will not raise your serum testosterone levels.

Non sequitr, Nothing of what you've said establishes that creatine is natural and test isn't.

Excessive creatine DOES cause liver and kidney problems. It's filtered those organs and excessive amounts will damage them.

Not that this has absolutely any relevancy to it being natural or not.

Your argument makes no sense.

[Johnny Apollo]

You have made the argument that both creatine supplementation and synthetic testosterone supplementation are essentially natural substances but derived by unnatural means, so therefore they bear the same significance as unnatural bodybuilding practices.
This argument is weak because how a substance is derived and used (unnatural) bears no  real significance. What's significant is as how it affects the body.
For example, a trainee isn't going to have to worry about gynocomastia, infertility, and an enlarged heart with creatine or other nutritional products in the natural sense. A woman won't develop male gender characteristics with creatine or other nutritional products in the natural sense.
Clearly, there is a deserved separation or classification of the two.

How it effects the body does NOT effect wether it's natural or not. Nowhere in the definition of "natural" does it say "no side effects" haha.

Hell...Pure meat is natural yet it has side effects. Increase of cholesterol and fat gain being two side effects.


I'll repeat this one last time..NOWHERE IN THE DEFINITION OF "NATURAL" DOES IT DELIST SUBSTANCES THAT HAVE NO SIDE EFFECTS!

[G o a t b o y]

You are so gullible!
As far as the "fuccking" Europeans are concerned the only place where stem cell research is illegal is in the US. The administration employs specious reasoning and rhetoric to convince middle America that stem cell research is sinful. The rest of the world is not as hypocritical as banning stem cell research while still allowing for genetically modified food to reach our grocery stores. Whats more many states in the US do not mandate the labeling of genetically modified food, robbing the consumer of his/her right to make an informed decision.
Now this witch hunt with regard to steroids in sports is another example of hypocrisy and false thinking. We all know how effectve this clean up of sports is. Our NFL and MLB jocks are still as muscular and their new drug tests are a joke. The players union is too strong for anything real to be done and the team owners want to put on a good show and that means steroids will be part of the plan to ensure that the pros play at levels expected of them without cutting back on their workload in the season. It is all about money! And to prove how gloriously ineffective this whole clean up sports business is: the Arnold classic will feature a group of people with more chemicals in their veins than in German pharmacy all under the auspices of a governor whose party has taken on the anti-steroids crusade! I don't care who juices or who doesn't. In fact I like freaky bodybuilders. They are like gladiators. They choose to risk their lives and more power to them. I want to see a good show. Bigger muscles, 500 lb musclemen. I do not care for an asthetic physique. I have one and it is boring. But I do care that steroids are being used to raise our meat and antibiotics in animal feed is reducing our ablity to fight the new strains of antibiotic resistant germs!
And don't get me started with the 21 and over alcohol rule. That rule has not stopped teenage Americans from consuming record breaking amounts of alcohol. We can send troops to die for their country at 18 but not trust them to enjoy a drink responsibly!
But you are a dyed in the wool conservative. You know what you want to hear and want to believe. Anything condemning France without any evidence is grist for your mill.

Shows how much you know. 

I (along with at least 2/3 of all americans) support stem cell research, I'm opposed to the prohibition on steroids, and I agree with you on the drinking age as well (mainly because kids are going to drink whether it's legal or not, so why piss in the wind?).

About the only thing I disagree with you on is the "genetically modified" crap. I've never seen any significant amount of credible scientfic evidence to show it's actually harmful, and until I do I'll assume it's just the socialist europeans whining about something ridiculous as usual.

Hey... it's not the Americans who are trying to ban vitamins and supplements. 

[snatch_clean]

There is no proof until now that genetically modified food is harmful, nor am I making such a claim. But neither has it been proven to be healthy. But that is not really the point.. Without labeling GM foods the consumer cannot exercise his/her choice. What is so "socialist" or "liberal" about this? In fact it let the consumer determine what he or she wants. Lack of clear identification of GM foods is another example of the government controlling access to information and determining what the consumer buys. This reminds me more of communism than anything: restriction of information and choice.

The arguments for banning stem cell research overwhelmingly hinges on religious sentiments: the fear of human cloning (not possible) and the fear of tampering with God's blueprints. Genetically modified food is also tampering with God's creation is it not? Shows you the double standards and hypocrisy of the current administration.

[FREAKgeek]

How it effects the body does NOT effect wether it's natural or not. Nowhere in the definition of "natural" does it say "no side effects" haha.
Hell...Pure meat is natural yet it has side effects. Increase of cholesterol and fat gain being two side effects.
I'll repeat this one last time..NOWHERE IN THE DEFINITION OF "NATURAL" DOES IT DELIST SUBSTANCES THAT HAVE NO SIDE EFFECTS!

No kidding. You didn't comprehend a single word I wrote.

[Johnny Apollo]

The arguments for banning stem cell research overwhelmingly hinges on religious sentiments: the fear of human cloning (not possible) and the fear of tampering with God's blueprints. Genetically modified food is also tampering with God's creation is it not? Shows you the double standards and hypocrisy of the current administration.

And we all know how much B.S. religion is.

[snatch_clean]

And we all know how much B.S. religion is.

Thank you for clarifying. My point exactly in the above posts!
Why is it so hard for people like you to realize that explaining another groups viewpoints does not mean that I subscribe to the views myself. I disparagingly called the rationale for banning stem cells as specious and empty rhetoric designed to drum up conservative fervor.

[Johnny Apollo]

Thank you for clarifying. My point exactly in the above posts!
Why is it so hard for people like you to realize that explaining another groups viewpoints does not mean that I subscribe to the views myself. I disparagingly called the rationale for banning stem cells as specious and empty rhetoric designed to drum up conservative fervor.

That's good.

[snatch_clean]

That's good.

You are a moron.