Author Topic: Official abortion thread! Post your views and why.  (Read 4451 times)

The True Adonis

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Re: Official abortion thread! Post your views and why.
« Reply #50 on: October 19, 2015, 12:16:15 PM »
Abortion is right.  The last thing the US needs is more people.

bears

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Re: Official abortion thread! Post your views and why.
« Reply #51 on: October 19, 2015, 02:25:13 PM »
Abortion is right.  The last thing the US needs is more people.

Genocide is right.  the last thing the Earth needs is more people.

OzmO

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Re: Official abortion thread! Post your views and why.
« Reply #52 on: October 19, 2015, 02:41:03 PM »
Genocide is right.  the last thing the Earth needs is more people.

we could use about 3 billion less.

bears

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Re: Official abortion thread! Post your views and why.
« Reply #53 on: October 19, 2015, 02:42:03 PM »
I didn't argue that we can't justifiably kill humans - we can. But if we are going to discuss whether abortion is murder - which is the unlawful, premeditated killing of a human being - then we need to ask the question: is the fertilized ovum a human being?

if the fetus is developed far enough to where a doctor can perform heart surgery on it to save its LIFE is it a life then?

or does it have to be delivered?  does it have to be out of the womb to be alive?  now everyone knows that there's ZERO physiological difference between a live baby that was born 2 minutes ago and a baby that is 5-6 months into gestation.  They're both viable human beings.  but the law still ignores that in some states.  so neither side wants to rely on science to determine when a life begins because it blows both sides definitions out of the water.

I just don't like it when liberal pro choice people try and use science to mock and ridicule the opinion of pro lifers that life begins at conception.  because their definition of when a life begins is just as laughable and arbitrary.


bears

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Re: Official abortion thread! Post your views and why.
« Reply #54 on: October 19, 2015, 02:43:04 PM »
we could use about 3 billion less.

don't you worry.  we'll get there.

avxo

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Re: Official abortion thread! Post your views and why.
« Reply #55 on: October 19, 2015, 03:51:34 PM »
if the fetus is developed far enough to where a doctor can perform heart surgery on it to save its LIFE is it a life then?

Perhaps but this is a bit of a red herring. The simple fact is that not all life is equal. Plants, for example, are alive and we "kill" them by the billions. Cats are alive and we put them down by the truckload. So - and please pardon my use of the word "ok" - it seems that some lives are "ok" to terminate. So clearly, whether the fetus is "a life" or not isn't the salient point. Indeed, what comes into play is personhood. In other words, is the fetus a person?

Well... maybe. Consider the example I mentioned previously: a fetus which has hydranencephaly. This means that the fetus doesn't actually have a brain - the space inside its skull is simply full of cerebro-spinal fluid. A baby born with this condition survived to age 12. It was undeniably alive. But what it a person? I submit that it was not. The essence of what we are is our brain - it's what makes you, you - and the body is just a portable life-support system for that brain.

To prove to yourself that this is the material difference, consider how differently we treat a human who requires life support to live but is brain-dead vs. one that is not brain dead. Both are humans and both are alive. One is a person and one is not. It's acceptable to unplug one, but it's not acceptable to unplug the other.

So the question to ask is: is a fetus a person? I think that we can be fairly certain that prior to about 10 weeks, the fetus is not a person: the brain hasn't yet developed. After that, the situation becomes a bit fuzzier.


or does it have to be delivered?  does it have to be out of the womb to be alive?  now everyone knows that there's ZERO physiological difference between a live baby that was born 2 minutes ago and a baby that is 5-6 months into gestation.  They're both viable human beings.  but the law still ignores that in some states.  so neither side wants to rely on science to determine when a life begins because it blows both sides definitions out of the water.

Again, the problem isn't when life begins - a question which science can definitively answer. The problem is when does personhood begin? Things there are fuzzy. Science can tell you when a brain forms and when it electrical patterns typical of conscious humans are present. What you do with that information is up to you.
 

I just don't like it when liberal pro choice people try and use science to mock and ridicule the opinion of pro lifers that life begins at conception.  because their definition of when a life begins is just as laughable and arbitrary.

Well, to be fair,  it's a pretty laughable claim that a zygote is a human baby, for exactly the same reason that it's laughable to claim that an olive pit is an olive tree. It can develop into one, but it isn't one now.

I'll leave  you with a question. Assume, for a moment, that we all agreed that fetus is not only alive but that it's person from the moment a single spermatozoon fertilized an ovum. What does that mean for abortion? Can a woman be forced to carry a pregnancy to term? Does she lose the right to self-determination and to exercise control over the body? Is she, in essence, to be seen as nothing more than a walking, talking incubator?

Dos Equis

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Re: Official abortion thread! Post your views and why.
« Reply #56 on: October 19, 2015, 03:57:58 PM »
No - I'm saying that you should point out instances where I called someone a name that you feel was inappropriate. Have I called people stupid? I have. Have I called them idiots? I have. Have I called them buffoons? I have. I stand behind what I said: if someone is being stupid, I'll call him stupid. If someone is acting like an idiot, I'll call him an idiot. If someone is a buffoon, I'll call him a buffoon.

If you want to go find instances that prove otherwise, then go for it. It's Friday and the night is young...


You just confirmed what I said.  I'm not interested in seeing whether you think calling people stupid, etc. is "appropriate."  Don't really care.  Not the point I was making. 

Dos Equis

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Re: Official abortion thread! Post your views and why.
« Reply #57 on: October 19, 2015, 03:59:31 PM »
Murder involves the premeditated killing of a human being. If you want to focus on the murder question, you must answer another one first: is a fertilized ovum is a human being, and if not, when does it becomes one?

I actually agree with this, except for the premeditated part. 

TuHolmes

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Re: Official abortion thread! Post your views and why.
« Reply #58 on: October 19, 2015, 05:05:23 PM »
I actually agree with this, except for the premeditated part. 

What do you not agree with? You're saying murder doesn't require premeditation?

Dos Equis

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Re: Official abortion thread! Post your views and why.
« Reply #59 on: October 19, 2015, 05:07:10 PM »
What do you not agree with? You're saying murder doesn't require premeditation?

First degree does.  Second degree murder does not.

TuHolmes

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Re: Official abortion thread! Post your views and why.
« Reply #60 on: October 19, 2015, 05:10:08 PM »
First degree does.  Second degree murder does not.

So your definition is the 2nd degree murder only.

Which is a legal definition not the definition of the word by itself of Murder.

Murder is defined as premeditation.

When you say "2nd degree murder" in terms of a legal charge, it's not the same.

Dos Equis

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Re: Official abortion thread! Post your views and why.
« Reply #61 on: October 19, 2015, 05:11:41 PM »
So your definition is the 2nd degree murder only.

Which is a legal definition not the definition of the word by itself of Murder.

Murder is defined as premeditation.

When you say "2nd degree murder" in terms of a legal charge, it's not the same.


Like I said, you like to argue about stupid stuff. 

TuHolmes

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Re: Official abortion thread! Post your views and why.
« Reply #62 on: October 19, 2015, 05:12:59 PM »
Like I said, you like to argue about stupid stuff. 

I don't consider defining words properly, "stupid".

Perhaps you just like to be lazy in your communication, but that's your issue, not mine.

Irongrip400

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Re: Official abortion thread! Post your views and why.
« Reply #63 on: October 19, 2015, 05:38:16 PM »
 :D

Dos Equis

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Re: Official abortion thread! Post your views and why.
« Reply #64 on: October 19, 2015, 05:51:21 PM »

whork

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bears

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Re: Official abortion thread! Post your views and why.
« Reply #66 on: October 25, 2015, 11:53:44 AM »
Perhaps but this is a bit of a red herring. The simple fact is that not all life is equal. Plants, for example, are alive and we "kill" them by the billions. Cats are alive and we put them down by the truckload. So - and please pardon my use of the word "ok" - it seems that some lives are "ok" to terminate. So clearly, whether the fetus is "a life" or not isn't the salient point. Indeed, what comes into play is personhood. In other words, is the fetus a person?

Well... maybe. Consider the example I mentioned previously: a fetus which has hydranencephaly. This means that the fetus doesn't actually have a brain - the space inside its skull is simply full of cerebro-spinal fluid. A baby born with this condition survived to age 12. It was undeniably alive. But what it a person? I submit that it was not. The essence of what we are is our brain - it's what makes you, you - and the body is just a portable life-support system for that brain.

To prove to yourself that this is the material difference, consider how differently we treat a human who requires life support to live but is brain-dead vs. one that is not brain dead. Both are humans and both are alive. One is a person and one is not. It's acceptable to unplug one, but it's not acceptable to unplug the other.

So the question to ask is: is a fetus a person? I think that we can be fairly certain that prior to about 10 weeks, the fetus is not a person: the brain hasn't yet developed. After that, the situation becomes a bit fuzzier.


Again, the problem isn't when life begins - a question which science can definitively answer. The problem is when does personhood begin? Things there are fuzzy. Science can tell you when a brain forms and when it electrical patterns typical of conscious humans are present. What you do with that information is up to you.
 

Well, to be fair,  it's a pretty laughable claim that a zygote is a human baby, for exactly the same reason that it's laughable to claim that an olive pit is an olive tree. It can develop into one, but it isn't one now.

I'll leave  you with a question. Assume, for a moment, that we all agreed that fetus is not only alive but that it's person from the moment a single spermatozoon fertilized an ovum. What does that mean for abortion? Can a woman be forced to carry a pregnancy to term? Does she lose the right to self-determination and to exercise control over the body? Is she, in essence, to be seen as nothing more than a walking, talking incubator?

I think you've proven my point with this response.  you have a definitive opinion on what definitely is NOT a baby and frankly I tend to agree with you.  But just like you've said after the brain develops and into the 4th 5th month of gestation you agree that the situation gets fuzzy.  and I agree again.  but the pro choice movement completely ignores your opinion on it being fuzzy and takes the position that a baby 4-5 months into gestation is considered a life if AND ONLY IF the mother WANTS it to live.  

and the law takes the position that a baby 4-5 months into gestation can be killed in a clinic legally but a baby born 5 minutes ago, biologically speaking the same as the former, can not be killed legally.  one woman is a patient, the other a murderer.  

I think that distinction is laughable.  unless you want to keep science out of it and base the decision purely on emotional reasons.  essentially the law is based on the fact that once we can actually see the baby outside the womb, now its a life.  and I think you would agree that that is not a scientific opinion but an opinion based on emotion.  babies outside the womb are cute.  babies inside the womb are not because you can't see what they are yet.

so again as the idea that it is a baby the moment a single spermatozoon fertilizes an ovum is laughable, so is the idea that a baby in the late 2nd or early 3rd trimester is NOT a baby is just as laughable.  

I'm just saying that we don't have this figured out.........at all.  but we rationalize it by arguing that it benefits society to kill the ones that are not wanted.  which of course it does.  it always benefits society to get rid of a million or 2 million people a year....always.