Decline movements..........

[ritch]

Certainly, they matter.  In this case, the decline just happens to be the best pec. major exercise.  That isn't negotiable or up for debate. That is science.  You don't isolate certain fibers of a muscle.  If you create a contraction in that muscle, it creates a contraction in the whole muscle.  As stated above, inclines and dips are superior at pec. minor stimulation. 

I've also seen "science" prove that flies are the best movement for most pec involvement in the "muscle meets magnet" book.

Should I add more "rolley eyes" to the end of this post???

[iwantmass]

I've also seen "science" prove that flies are the best movement for most pec involvement in the "muscle meets magnet" book.

Should I add more "rolley eyes" to the end of this post???

If you would have said decline flies, you would have been correct.  From a mechanical perspective a decline fly would be superior to a decline press.  Problem being, the load comes into play here.  Not too many people can decline the same load as they can press, thus making the pressing variety of decline superior from a load perspective.  While you were attempting poorly at coming off as sarcastic and uneducated, you ended up being halfway right.  

I'm thinking you don't understand the difference between pec major and pec minor. Maybe I'm wrong

[ritch]

If you would have said decline flies, you would have been correct.  From a mechanical perspective a decline fly would be superior to a decline press.  Problem being, the load comes into play here.  Not too many people can decline the same load as they can press, thus making the pressing variety of decline superior from a load perspective.  While you were attempting poorly at coming off as sarcastic and uneducated, you ended up being halfway right.  

I'm thinking you don't understand the difference between pec major and pec minor. Maybe I'm wrong

You sound like one of those book smart guys with 0 real life application. Time to post pics to back your shit up, or shut the fuck up.

[iwantmass]

You sound like one of those book smart guys with 0 real life application. Time to post pics to back your shit up, or shut the fuck up.

I'm sorry you haven't been including the superior chest movement in your workouts.  Don't take it out on me.  I suggest including decline presses for the next few months.  You can thank me later.  If possible, keep the angle less than 20 degrees.  


http://muscle-munch.com/qa-with-bodybuilding-legend-dorian-yates.html

Since you don't trust science all that much, will you take that guy's word on it.  He tended to be a thinking man's bodybuilder, and believed heavily in science and deviating from the broscience.  Question #5 addresses his exercise choices.  He probably also just addressed your idea that the wider the lat pull, the wider the back....oh boy....

[ritch]

I'm sorry you haven't been including the superior chest movement in your workouts.  Don't take it out on me.  I suggest including decline presses for the next few months.  You can thank me later.  If possible, keep the angle less than 20 degrees. 

Way to dodge the question of reality...
I use 20degree angle FIY.

Bye now.

[iwantmass]

Way to dodge the question of reality...
I use 20degree angle FIY.

Bye now.

Good choice in angle selection.  I can build you a workout program if you would like.  Chances are you've neglected science on your other body parts as well.  

Please read the link in my previous post.  That guy has a fair amount of credibility in the bodybuilding world.  Sorry for adding it after my initial post.

[ritch]

Good choice in angle selection.  I can build you a workout program if you would like.  Chances are you've neglected science on your other body parts as well. 

OK, build me a split!

But seriously, if it involves having to do all sorts of shit that is not actual training, you will lose my interest.

Oddly, anything "rear delt' triggers injuries, my left/upper back will feel like it's "tingling".

But hey, 26 years of this kinda leaves anyone a bit "fragile"...

If you have something on file, already done, shoot! Don't go out of your way to make something personalized for me. (Taking a break now anyway. Was gonna do 2 weeks, but may go longer, much longer. As long as I can start and be kick ass shape for summer.)

My left pec minor (I think is jammed) was pressing the bar very crooked. Just picking up dumbells off the rack was messing up my left forearm (main reason to stop for now, I have no grip strength)

Fuck...

[iwantmass]

OK, build me a split!

But seriously, if it involves having to do all sorts of shit that is not actual training, you will lose my interest.

Oddly, anything "rear delt' triggers injuries, my left/upper back will feel like it's "tingling".

But hey, 26 years of this kinda leaves anyone a bit "fragile"...

If you have something on file, already done, shoot! Don't go out of your way to make something personalized for me. (Taking a break now anyway. Was gonna do 2 weeks, but may go longer, much longer. As long as I can start and be kick ass shape for summer.)

My left pec minor (I think is jammed) was pressing the bar very crooked. Just picking up dumbells off the rack was messing up my left forearm (main reason to stop for now, I have no grip strength)

Fuck...

Rear delt is worked just fine through back movements. No reason to include isolation work if you are having injury issues.  I actually don't do anything exotic or new age.  All the exercises that work have been around for a long time.  Even though he is an arrogant prick, I think Phil Hernon's method of more frequency is the best approach and that is what I follow.  I do more volume than what he advocates due to injuries, but i do try to train everything twice a week, with legs being the exception due to just being lazy.  

Chest for me would typically be 3-4 sets of hammer decline to failure, reducing the load by 10% each set, and taking breaks just long enough to get my breath back.  My first set is generally 8 reps or so to failure hopefully.  After that, the next 2-3 sets are to whatever number failure dictates.  

3 sets of low incline dumb bells after that.  Same reduction in load and same break pattern.

3 sets of machine decline fly. and finally 3 sets of dips at body weight due to injury.  

I train shoulders and triceps on the same day, usually 8-10 sets for each depending on how i feel that day.  I d a slight variation to a dumb bell shoulder press, where i keep a neutral grip and bring my arms all the way to the side as 1 would with lateral raises.  I follow that with a machine lateral raise. Tricep doesn't really matter. Pick 2 or 3 exercises.

I won't post a full program because I know you were being sarcastic, but all my workouts follow that sorta template, done twice a week.

[ritch]

well, I've tried to do stuff twice a week, does not work well at all. I've never been a high volume guy, it shrinks me worse than a pro comming off gear.

Due to my situation, I was training push/pull as i suspect you do. It gives lots of time for the forearm to heal until upper body is hit again.

I never saw the need for rear delts either. Just thought maybe by describing what I feel, it would raise a red flag about something I don't know about as if I knew what it was, I would do it!

Legs once every 10 days is ideal in my case.

I like to train smart and hard, not just "hard" like most gym dingbats!

KInda odd to read "it dosen't matter" when it comes to triceps, ya kinda lost me as a potential "internet guru" on that one.

Ya telling me hand positioning does not matter in regards to which part of the tricep is hit? I think it does matter. But hey, two people on the internet not agreeing on training protocols is not exactly a first....

However, I have kinda shown my ways work well for me by pics too.

[iwantmass]

well, I've tried to do stuff twice a week, does not work well at all. I've never been a high volume guy, it shrinks me worse than a pro comming off gear.

Due to my situation, I was training push/pull as i suspect you do. It gives lots of time for the forearm to heal until upper body is hit again.

I never saw the need for rear delts either. Just thought maybe by describing what I feel, it would raise a red flag about something I don't know about as if I knew what it was, I would do it!

Legs once every 10 days is ideal in my case.

I like to train smart and hard, not just "hard" like most gym dingbats!

KInda odd to read "it dosen't matter" when it comes to triceps, ya kinda lost me as a potential "internet guru" on that one.

Ya telling me hand positioning does not matter in regards to which part of the tricep is hit? I think it does matter. But hey, two people on the internet not agreeing on training protocols is not exactly a first....

However, I have kinda shown my ways work well for me by pics too.

Sorry about saying that exercise selection doesn't matter for triceps. Lemme elaborate.  If your pressing motions have been done successfully to failure, you've stimulated a fair amount of tricep.  I also went with the assumption that you probably know most of your tricep exercises, so I didn't feel the need to elaborate.

If my tendon on my right arm wasn't complete trash, i would probably train triceps as follows:

I would replace the body weight dips with weighted dips.  4 plates the first set to failure, 3 plates to failure, 2 plates to failure, 1 plate, and then bodyweight depending on how i feel.  That is prob more volume than necessary but I have always liked dips.  I would follow that up with a moderately narrow bench press in a smith machine with my ass hanging off the bench, via DC's suggestion.  At that point I might finish with a rope press down or single armed cables

[iwantmass]

Honestly, the biggest changes I saw in my progress were Phil Hernon's suggestion to do your heaviest set first versus pyramiding up to it.  His suggestion was that people expend too much energy on their earlier sets, causing them to neglect their heavier set.  Thus, I warm up very briefly first, and jump right to my heavy set, then pyramid down. 

The other suggestion I like that he made was to stay in the middle 80% range of the exercise as to keep tension on the muscle. 

Occasionally, I include rest-pause sets via DC training, but I have found while i get strong training that way, I also get injured more often.

[ritch]

But one thing I never understood is how the hell people take short rest periods when going heavy. If I go "all out" I need AT LEAST 3 min before my next set.

So how many reps do you get by starting your next set the second you catch your breath?

I'd get like 3. Not sure how that's productive in my case and huge reason why I never need or take training advice.

I know very well how my body reacts to training (been at this for 26 years in case you missed that part) and for someone who dosen't know anything about me to say "do this..."

I try to keep an open mind, but there is always something about the advice that I just know that won't work for me.

ya just talked about warm ups and I need may low rep sets before going heavy. Gotta warm up the CNS and what the hell does pressing the bar for 20 do? Create lactic acid build up. No idea why guys still do that today???

I need 5 sets before the first movement, then about 2-3 for each following of the same muscle to get a feel for it and tell me if "it's gonna be a good day or not"

[iwantmass]

But one thing I never understood is how the hell people take short rest periods when going heavy. If I go "all out" I need AT LEAST 3 min before my next set.

So how many reps do you get by starting your next set the second you catch your breath?

I'd get like 3. Not sure how that's productive in my case and huge reason why I never need or take training advice.

I know very well how my body reacts to training (been at this for 26 years in case you missed that part) and for someone who dosen't know anything about me to say "do this..."

I try to keep an open mind, but there is always something about the advice that I just know that won't work for me.

ya just talked about warm ups and I need may low rep sets before going heavy. Gotta warm up the CNS and what the hell does pressing the bar for 20 do? Create lactic acid build up. No idea why guys still do that today???

I need 5 sets before the first movement, then about 2-3 for each following of the same muscle to get a feel for it and tell me if "it's gonna be a good day or not"

I'll provide my barbell inclines as an example.  I warmup with the bar for maybe 8 reps, 135 for 5 reps or so, 225 for 2-3 reps, 315 for 1 rep.  Then I hopefully get 365 for 8 reps. Some days it might only be 6 reps.  It usually takes 50 seconds or so to catch my breath.  At this point, I've decrease the load by 10%, or let's just call it 40 lbs in this case.  I have no predetermined rep range in mind at this point.  My first set was to all out failure if it was done successfully. 

Anyhow, this second set will end up being 325 and I may normally get the same number of reps or slightly more due to the decrease in load.

The 3rd set would be a reduction in 35 lbs, or 290. And if I feel like including a 4th set, it would be 260 lbs under this model.  If the weight were to remain the same through all sets, the reps would certainly diminish.  As it stands, the reduction in load would account to 105 lbs by the end of the 4th set, so reps stay fairly high

[ritch]

Ak, I see it now, it's more of a drop set type training which I like also. But if I did that, no fuckin way could I train chest again that week.

Impossible, even on gear, slin whatever....

Doing a static hold on say biceps will even have me train them very light the next week as I still feel the muscle is not recovered.

See why I don't seek "guru advice"? Before they "get me" they'd have to understand me and most just give the same shit to everyone to make their $$$.

Fuck em.

[iwantmass]

Ak, I see it now, it's more of a drop set type training which I like also. But if I did that, no fuckin way could I train chest again that week.

Impossible, even on gear, slin whatever....

Doing a static hold on say biceps will even have me train them very light the next week as I still feel the muscle is not recovered.

See why I don't seek "guru advice"? Before they "get me" they'd have to understand me and most just give the same shit to everyone to make their $$$.

Fuck em.

Ha, I understand I I certainly don't deem myself a guru.  If anything I've stolen what I like from multiple other trainers over the years.  I agree with you, that you have to listen to your body and the situations I've outlined are under ideal circumstances (injury free, time for recovery, etc).  Reality dictates that I don't always make it twice a week.

[ritch]

Ha, I understand I I certainly don't deem myself a guru.  If anything I've stolen what I like from multiple other trainers over the years.  I agree with you, that you have to listen to your body and the situations I've outlined are under ideal circumstances (injury free, time for recovery, etc).  Reality dictates that I don't always make it twice a week.

Oh, trust me, I train under ideal circumstances. Even did GPP last summer to try and see if it would help me.

Nope, just overtrained me more! The sled pushing and pulling was kinda fun though!

[njflex]

read all this last page,,nice banter here and some good advice as soon as i get fully healed left delt will try to gat my poundages back and further with some of the stuff,here,,,training around it and my rom is getting better each week..strenght back..amaging i hurt shoulder'front'delt and can train heavy on everything but presses 'chest..just pumpiing/supersets to maintain.

[Donny]

OK, build me a split!

But seriously, if it involves having to do all sorts of shit that is not actual training, you will lose my interest.

Oddly, anything "rear delt' triggers injuries, my left/upper back will feel like it's "tingling".

But hey, 26 years of this kinda leaves anyone a bit "fragile"...

If you have something on file, already done, shoot! Don't go out of your way to make something personalized for me. (Taking a break now anyway. Was gonna do 2 weeks, but may go longer, much longer. As long as I can start and be kick ass shape for summer.)

My left pec minor (I think is jammed) was pressing the bar very crooked. Just picking up dumbells off the rack was messing up my left forearm (main reason to stop for now, I have no grip strength)

Fuck...

Look after yourself take the break

[chaos]

From a bbing perspective, do the current crop of guys do alot of decline work? Did the old school guys?

[iwantmass]

From a bbing perspective, do the current crop of guys do alot of decline work? Did the old school guys?

Good question and 1 we will likely find a good answer for.  For the most part, if you watch most of your guys in the gym these days, they aren't smart about their workouts and they do too much work.  I see plenty of guys doing all 3 major angles of presses, followed by all 3 major angles of flies, and then some machine work.  They've covered all their bases but they've also done well more work than is necessary.  In the sense that ritch says he has to take large breaks while training to failure, I agree with him in terms of sets, that there is no way these guys are hitting 24-30 sets to absolute failure

It's not to say they aren't getting good results, but are they getting optimal results.  For me, I want to spend as little time as necessary in the gym to get the best results.  I don't want to obtain those results in an inefficient manner that is masked by my drug use. 

Guys in arnold's Era overtrained as do guys in today's era. I doubt much has changed in that department.  You have high volume guys still, hit guys, DC guys, etc.  They all get good results and would likely get good results ok other programs as well.  It doesn't mean they are all right, it just means they are doing enough work and drugs for it not to matter.

[chaos]

Good question and 1 we will likely find a good answer for.  For the most part, if you watch most of your guys in the gym these days, they aren't smart about their workouts and they do too much work.  I see plenty of guys doing all 3 major angles of presses, followed by all 3 major angles of flies, and then some machine work.  They've covered all their bases but they've also done well more work than is necessary.  In the sense that ritch says he has to take large breaks while training to failure, I agree with him in terms of sets, that there is no way these guys are hitting 24-30 sets to absolute failure

It's not to say they aren't getting good results, but are they getting optimal results.  For me, I want to spend as little time as necessary in the gym to get the best results.  I don't want to obtain those results in an inefficient manner that is masked by my drug use. 

Guys in arnold's Era overtrained as do guys in today's era. I doubt much has changed in that department.  You have high volume guys still, hit guys, DC guys, etc.  They all get good results and would likely get good results ok other programs as well.  It doesn't mean they are all right, it just means they are doing enough work and drugs for it not to matter.

What is overtraining?

[iwantmass]

What is overtraining?

For me personally, it's doing anymore work than is necessary to create an environment for growth.  Its a time issue for me.  Ive got plenty of other things i could be doing.  Once I've put in the work necessary to grow, i want to be walking out the gym door.

  I think the term gets thrown around too loosely these days in terms of it being detrimental to muscle growth.  I think there is something to be said for CNS recovery, or whatever you wanna call it.  I'm certain plenty will disagree with me, but that's my take on it

[DroppingPlates]

What is overtraining?

A conflict between a muscle's recovery time & training frequency

[ritch]

A conflict between a muscle's recovery time & training frequency

that is one of the better and most simple answers to describe it! The word "conflict" strengthens the sentence so well.

Still have no idea how anyone can train more than once a week. Not saying it's wrong, just not "right" for me.

[iwantmass]

that is one of the better and most simple answers to describe it! The word "conflict" strengthens the sentence so well.

Still have no idea how anyone can train more than once a week. Not saying it's wrong, just not "right" for me.

What are your thoughts on soreness and training frequency?  Do you feel that soreness is an indication a muscle isn't ready to be trained again?