Author Topic: 1 of 4? New York judge finds Donald Trump liable for fraud  (Read 12569 times)

deadz

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Re: 1 of 4? New York judge finds Donald Trump liable for fraud
« Reply #250 on: November 17, 2023, 02:24:08 PM »
This is hilarious.  The period goes inside of the quotation mark, so it should read:  “I love the poorly educated.”  Not “poorly educated”. 

When you are being an arrogant Grammar Nazi, ensure your own is accurate.  Lol
;)
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Re: 1 of 4? New York judge finds Donald Trump liable for fraud
« Reply #251 on: November 28, 2023, 10:04:03 AM »
Trump never risked defaulting on loan covenants, banker suggests

Deutsche Bank managing director Dave Williams downplayed the possibility that Donald Trump could have defaulted on the net-worth covenants included in his loans.

While both parties agree that Trump never defaulted on his loans, New York Attorney General Letitia James alleges that had Trump accurately reported the value of his assets, he could have risked defaulting on a loan covenant that required he maintain a net worth of $2.5 billion.

Defense attorney Jesus Suarez pushed back on that allegation by asking Williams about the severity of a covenant default -- i.e., breaching the terms of the loan -- compared to a payment default triggered by a missed payment.

"Generally speaking, a payment default is a more material default than a covenant default," Williams said. "It speaks definitively to the repayment of the loan."

Williams described a loan covenant as a "guardrail," and suggested that breaching the covenant would have brought Trump back to the negotiating table to adjust the loan terms.

Williams also reiterated that he was not aware of any loan or covenant defaults by Trump.

James is expected to request a fine of nearly $400 million for Trump's allegedly ill-gotten gains, including over $140 million based on the potential interest she says was lost by Deutsche Bank. By proving that the loan agreements were lawful, Trump's lawyers could significantly lower the fine Trump faces.

Net worth is subjective, banker says

The managing director of Deutsche Bank, which was Trump's primary lender in the 2010s, testified that it would be impossible for the bank to calculate their client's net worth with mathematical certainty.

"I don't believe that is possible," said Dave Williams, testifying for the defense. "I think an individual's net worth as reported is largely subjective, or subject to the use of estimates."

The assertion bolsters a recurring theme of the defense's case -- that determining the value of Trump's assets was less of a science than an art form.

Williams said that, regardless of what Trump reported, Deutsche Bank made more conservative estimates about the value of his assets.

"I think it's a difference of opinion. We expect clients provide information to be accurate. At the same time, it's not an industry standard that these financial statements are audited," Williams said.

Trump fraud trial live updates: Trump never risked defaulting on loan covenants, banker suggests
The former president is on trial in New York for allegedly defrauding lenders.
By Peter Charalambous, Aaron Katersky, Olivia Rubin, and Lucien Bruggeman
Last Updated: November 28, 2023
https://abcnews.go.com/US/live-updates/trump-fraud-trial/trump-never-risked-defaulting-on-loan-covenants-banker-suggests-105213855?id=103642561

Grape Ape

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Re: 1 of 4? New York judge finds Donald Trump liable for fraud
« Reply #252 on: November 28, 2023, 11:40:09 AM »
Of all the trials, this one and the Stormy payment one are so fucking stupid.

They are both a case of weaponizing the courts for personal gain.

There literally were no victims in these supposed "crimes" and they will never try to prosecute other real estate folks who do the same thing.
Y

OzmO

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Re: 1 of 4? New York judge finds Donald Trump liable for fraud
« Reply #253 on: November 29, 2023, 09:21:52 AM »
https://abcnews.go.com/US/live-updates/trump-fraud-trial/trump-never-risked-breaching-loan-covenants-banker-suggests-105213855?id=103642561

Engoron said "the mere fact that the lenders were happy doesn't mean the statute wasn't violated."

This is what he's dealing with and the fines and punishment are ridiculous. 

Things like this will discourage companies from doing business in New York in the future knowing that at any moment they can lose their right to do business in that state over something that didn't result in a victim or complaint.

I don't support Trump.  I don't think he is good for America.

But I don't support this.

Grape Ape

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Re: 1 of 4? New York judge finds Donald Trump liable for fraud
« Reply #254 on: November 29, 2023, 09:41:46 AM »
https://abcnews.go.com/US/live-updates/trump-fraud-trial/trump-never-risked-breaching-loan-covenants-banker-suggests-105213855?id=103642561

Engoron said "the mere fact that the lenders were happy doesn't mean the statute wasn't violated."

This is what he's dealing with and the fines and punishment are ridiculous. 

Things like this will discourage companies from doing business in New York in the future knowing that at any moment they can lose their right to do business in that state over something that didn't result in a victim or complaint.

I don't support Trump.  I don't think he is good for America.

But I don't support this.

This is the position of a rational person who can dislike Trump without having TDS.
Y

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Re: 1 of 4? New York judge finds Donald Trump liable for fraud
« Reply #255 on: November 29, 2023, 09:51:39 AM »
https://abcnews.go.com/US/live-updates/trump-fraud-trial/trump-never-risked-breaching-loan-covenants-banker-suggests-105213855?id=103642561

Engoron said "the mere fact that the lenders were happy doesn't mean the statute wasn't violated."

This is what he's dealing with and the fines and punishment are ridiculous. 

Things like this will discourage companies from doing business in New York in the future knowing that at any moment they can lose their right to do business in that state over something that didn't result in a victim or complaint.

I don't support Trump.  I don't think he is good for America.

But I don't support this.

This is rational thinking.

OzmO

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Re: 1 of 4? New York judge finds Donald Trump liable for fraud
« Reply #256 on: November 29, 2023, 02:08:40 PM »
This is the position of a rational person who can dislike Trump without having TDS.

It will be interesting to see how 2 of the other indictments play out. 

I don't see how they can pin much of anything on him on the 1/6 thing.  I wonder what the accusers have in the way of evidence outside of what we saw that day of him directly inciting and orchestrating it.

Same with the election interference one.  I think that one might be the biggest danger for him to really get charged.




Dos Equis

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Re: 1 of 4? New York judge finds Donald Trump liable for fraud
« Reply #257 on: November 29, 2023, 05:12:48 PM »
It will be interesting to see how 2 of the other indictments play out. 

I don't see how they can pin much of anything on him on the 1/6 thing.  I wonder what the accusers have in the way of evidence outside of what we saw that day of him directly inciting and orchestrating it.

Same with the election interference one.  I think that one might be the biggest danger for him to really get charged.

I’ll be surprised if he isn’t convicted in the New York, DC, and Georgia cases.  Or frankly the Florida case. 

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Re: 1 of 4? New York judge finds Donald Trump liable for fraud
« Reply #258 on: November 29, 2023, 06:39:46 PM »
report:%20Testimony%20has%20'blown%20up'%20Letitia%20James'%20fraud%20case%20against%20Trump

A new report reveals that testimony from Deutsche Bank officials in New York Attorney General Letitia James' claims that Donald Trump's companies engaged in fraud has "blown up" the case.

James campaigned for her statewide office on the slogan of getting Trump, even though there was no evidence of wrongdoing on the part of his companies. She's now in court, claiming fraud and demanding $250 million in damages and the execution of his New York enterprises, even though there's no evidence of unpaid loans, irate partners, unmade payments, or anything of that kind.

Trump has charged repeatedly that it's no more than a political witch hunt in which James, apparently with the aid of Judge Arthur Engoron, is trying to inflict as much damage on him as possible, without cause.

A report in The Gateway Pundit explains now how testimony from a Deutsche Bank official undermined James' claims.

The report first explained the executive "gave testimony that could bolster Donald Trump’s defense in his civil fraud trial, telling a New York judge that prospective clients can get loans even after reporting a net worth far higher than the lender’s own calculations."

David Williams, who worked on at least one of three loans Deutsche Bank made to Trump in the years before he was elected president, testified Tuesday that it's 'atypical, but not entirely unusual' for the bank to cut a client’s stated asset value by 50% and approve a loan anyway, as it did with Trump."

Williams worked on at least one of the loans Deutsche Bank made to Trump before he was president, and said the stated assets are merely an opinion and a difference of opinion in asset values does not disqualify a borrower.

The Pundit explained, "Radical Marxist New York Attorney General Letitia James is seeking $250 million in 'damages' when there is no victim in this fraud case and she is also seeking to ban Trump and his sons from operating any businesses in New York. She accused Trump of inflating his assets and defrauding lenders and insurance companies."

The banker said such lending "is typical in high net-worth, high-profile clients like Donald Trump," the report explained.

Engoron repeatedly has acted in opposition to Trump's defense, and recently threatened that fining Trump for "illegal profits" could be a remedy.

The Pundit explained that was in a case "with zero victims."

Writing at the Daily Caller News Foundation, Jacobson explained that although the state office James holds has great power, hundreds of employees and authority both in criminal and civil venues, "political neutrality is not what Attorney General Letitia James has delivered."

In fact, her campaign for the office was based on her promise "to get Donald Trump on something, anything," he explained. As a result, she's "conducted herself in office to exact political revenge on the former president, his businesses, and his family."

In fact, it was during 2018 while she was campaigning that James demanded: "He should be charged with obstructing justice. I believe that the president of these United States can be indicted for criminal offenses and we would join with law enforcement and other attorneys general across the nation in removing this president from office."

Jacobson pointed out James also was on social media boasting of an endorsement from Rep. Maxine Waters, D-Calif., who said James would, if elected, "investigate Trump.

When she was elected, Jacobson reported, James bragged, "I will be shining a bright light into every dark corner of his real estate dealings…."

In office, she's promoted multiple "investigations" of Trump, "even threatening a church as which Eric Trump was appearing," Jacobson wrote.

Then came the announcement of a civil lawsuit against the Trumps.

However, Jacobson pointed out that no one is alleged to have lost money because of any Trump action, and the focus of the dispute, the valuation of properties, was conceded by even the New York Times to be "often subjective."


In fact, Engoron radically claimed that Trump's Mar-a-Lago residence is worth some $18 million, triggering a massive eye roll from the real estate community, where real experts suggested it was worth 50 times that – or more.

The fact is that all of the loans that generated the dispute have been paid off.

"Tish James campaigned on and conducted her office for the purpose of investigating a political opponent and those around him trying to find a crime. That is Soviet-level prosecutorial abuse where individuals are targeted not to prosecute a crime, but to sift through their lives in the hope of finding a crime," Jacobson said. "And lacking a prosecutable crime, trying to bring them down and purge them from the economic world through a civil lawsuit."

Trump Derangement Syndrome is a term coined for a malady suffered by those who hate something simply because President Trump is involved.


Other legal experts have warned James destroyed her own neutrality and credibility by threatening Trump before she was elected.

https://www.wnd.com/2023/11/report-testimony-blown-letitia-james-fraud-case-trump/




Dos Equis

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Re: 1 of 4? New York judge finds Donald Trump liable for fraud
« Reply #259 on: December 06, 2023, 05:40:02 PM »
Witness Tells NY Court Mar-a-Lago is Worth Over a Billion.

Lawrence Moens, a witness in Donald Trump’s civil fraud trial brought by New York Attorney General Letitia James, says Trump’s Mar-a-Lago estate is worth at least a billion dollars. Democrat-linked Judge Arthur Engoron and his partisan aide Allison Greenfield had valued it at just $18 million. “It’s something breathtaking. It’s something amazing to see,” Moens told the court on Tuesday.

Far from having overvalued the property in loan applications, Moens believes Trump significantly undervalued it. This is in line with Trump’s own contention that the numbers he submitted excluded his personal brand value. Moens put Mar-a-Lago’s value in 2011 at ~$655 million, compared to a Trump valuation of ~$426 million. Moens put Mar-a-Lago’s value in 2021 at over a billion dollars, compared to a Trump valuation of ~$612 million. During a moment when he sent Moens out of the courtroom, Engoron claimed that whether or not Trump overvalued his properties was “not the bottom issue for me.” He insisted the real issue was whether or not “false documents” were submitted to secure favorable loan agreements. Trump and his team say no one besides the Democrat Attorney General has complained, and all loans have been fully repaid. The former president has also branded the Attorney General, her case, and Engoron himself a “disgrace”.

https://thenationalpulse.com/2023/12/06/witness-tells-ny-court-mar-a-lago-is-worth-over-a-billion/

LurkerNoMore

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Re: 1 of 4? New York judge finds Donald Trump liable for fraud
« Reply #260 on: December 11, 2023, 02:31:13 PM »
So he isn't going to show up and lie testify.  Again.   ::)

What a surprise.  (not really).

deadz

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Re: 1 of 4? New York judge finds Donald Trump liable for fraud
« Reply #261 on: December 13, 2023, 03:32:31 PM »
Witness Tells NY Court Mar-a-Lago is Worth Over a Billion.

Lawrence Moens, a witness in Donald Trump’s civil fraud trial brought by New York Attorney General Letitia James, says Trump’s Mar-a-Lago estate is worth at least a billion dollars. Democrat-linked Judge Arthur Engoron and his partisan aide Allison Greenfield had valued it at just $18 million. “It’s something breathtaking. It’s something amazing to see,” Moens told the court on Tuesday.

Far from having overvalued the property in loan applications, Moens believes Trump significantly undervalued it. This is in line with Trump’s own contention that the numbers he submitted excluded his personal brand value. Moens put Mar-a-Lago’s value in 2011 at ~$655 million, compared to a Trump valuation of ~$426 million. Moens put Mar-a-Lago’s value in 2021 at over a billion dollars, compared to a Trump valuation of ~$612 million. During a moment when he sent Moens out of the courtroom, Engoron claimed that whether or not Trump overvalued his properties was “not the bottom issue for me.” He insisted the real issue was whether or not “false documents” were submitted to secure favorable loan agreements. Trump and his team say no one besides the Democrat Attorney General has complained, and all loans have been fully repaid. The former president has also branded the Attorney General, her case, and Engoron himself a “disgrace”.

https://thenationalpulse.com/2023/12/06/witness-tells-ny-court-mar-a-lago-is-worth-over-a-billion/
Trump.....................Winning!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
T

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Re: 1 of 4? New York judge finds Donald Trump liable for fraud
« Reply #262 on: December 13, 2023, 04:00:01 PM »
Well then, Trumpy will step up and pay the adjusted tax bill with no whining right?   ;D

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Re: 1 of 4? New York judge finds Donald Trump liable for fraud
« Reply #263 on: December 13, 2023, 04:31:03 PM »
Well then, Trumpy will step up and pay the adjusted tax bill with no whining right?   ;D

Tax assessments are not based on market value, and market value is not based on tax assessments.

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Re: 1 of 4? New York judge finds Donald Trump liable for fraud
« Reply #264 on: December 14, 2023, 08:11:09 AM »
Tax assessments are not based on market value, and market value is not based on tax assessments.


Well then, Trumpy will step up and pay the adjusted tax bill with no whining right?   ;D

 ;D = sarcasm

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Re: 1 of 4? New York judge finds Donald Trump liable for fraud
« Reply #265 on: December 14, 2023, 10:55:58 AM »

 ;D = sarcasm

Were these sarcasm too?

It's funny seeing Trumpturds arguing about the value and numbers of Mar-A-Lardo being incorrect and yet keeping quiet about the values and numbers Trumpy used elsewhere.  I mean, it's only like what this entire case is about.   ::)

Funny numbers is ok when Trumpy uses them but not when anyone else does?

Ok, so does this mean he will be receiving an amended tax bill for the property over the years or what?   ::)

Retards void of common sense like you do not see the irony or hypocrisy in your own statements. 

So since it worth 10x or 50x or whatever he claims now as opposed to what the judge said, he won't be complaining when he gets served an adjusted tax bill and owes more money right?

Big jump from 18M to 500+M.   Big tax bill for all the years prior that it was undervalued.  Sounds like you better double up on the donations to him.

LurkerNoMore

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Re: 1 of 4? New York judge finds Donald Trump liable for fraud
« Reply #266 on: December 14, 2023, 12:31:41 PM »
Were these sarcasm too?

Seeing how it is basically the exact same thing I just posted, I would think it would be clear.   Yeah.  Did you really need that pointed out to you?

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Re: 1 of 4? New York judge finds Donald Trump liable for fraud
« Reply #267 on: December 14, 2023, 12:53:55 PM »
Seeing how it is basically the exact same thing I just posted, I would think it would be clear.   Yeah.  Did you really need that pointed out to you?

It is not clear.  You didn't use your "smiley face."  What's clear is that you didn't understand that tax assessed value isn't the same as market value and that the assessor isn't going to revise an assessment based on Trump's contention that the market value is much higher.  Market value is almost always greater than the tax assessed value. 

I'm quite certain you needed that pointed out to you.  Not that it will do any good. . . .

deadz

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Re: 1 of 4? New York judge finds Donald Trump liable for fraud
« Reply #268 on: December 14, 2023, 12:55:49 PM »
Trump laughs at all the peons trying to derail his immaculate road back to the White House in 2024. He will personally pick Hunter up by his panties and escort the drug infested c unt off the property. Sight to see..
T

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Re: 1 of 4? New York judge finds Donald Trump liable for fraud
« Reply #269 on: December 14, 2023, 07:55:11 PM »
Tax assessments are not based on market value, and market value is not based on tax assessments.

If you are referencing real estate taxes, what the assessments are based on depends on tax laws where the property is located. Likewise, market values. Sometimes indirectly real estate taxes are based on true market value. Most often real estate taxes are based on appraised value with variables. In most states and municipalities, assessed value is calculated as a percentage of the property's fair market value. The percentage rate used can vary from one place to another.

In Oregon, the amount of property tax you pay is based on two things: 1) the assessed value of your property, and 2) the amount of taxes that each taxing district is authorized to raise (bonds and levies). The Oregon constitution places limits on both factors.

For example, as a result of measure 5 which was passed in 1990, the tax limit is based on a property's maximum assessed value (MAV). MAV cannot increase by more than 3 percent each year, unless there are changes to the property, such as the addition of a new structure, improvement of an existing structure, or subdivision or partition of the property.

This is a bonus for people like me whose home is 5 decades old. A newly built house in the same neighborhood and with the same features as mine would have higher real estate taxes.

https://www.orcities.org/application/files/4015/6115/9506/LOC_Measure_5__50_Primer9-8-17.pdf
Like Oregon, California prop. 13 which was passed in 1978 greatly affects real estate taxes to the benefit of longtime property owners.



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Re: 1 of 4? New York judge finds Donald Trump liable for fraud
« Reply #270 on: December 14, 2023, 09:11:30 PM »
If you are referencing real estate taxes, what the assessments are based on depends on tax laws where the property is located. Likewise, market values. Sometimes indirectly real estate taxes are based on true market value. Most often real estate taxes are based on appraised value with variables. In most states and municipalities, assessed value is calculated as a percentage of the property's fair market value. The percentage rate used can vary from one place to another.

In Oregon, the amount of property tax you pay is based on two things: 1) the assessed value of your property, and 2) the amount of taxes that each taxing district is authorized to raise (bonds and levies). The Oregon constitution places limits on both factors.

For example, as a result of measure 5 which was passed in 1990, the tax limit is based on a property's maximum assessed value (MAV). MAV cannot increase by more than 3 percent each year, unless there are changes to the property, such as the addition of a new structure, improvement of an existing structure, or subdivision or partition of the property.

This is a bonus for people like me whose home is 5 decades old. A newly built house in the same neighborhood and with the same features as mine would have higher real estate taxes.

https://www.orcities.org/application/files/4015/6115/9506/LOC_Measure_5__50_Primer9-8-17.pdf
Like Oregon, California prop. 13 which was passed in 1978 greatly affects real estate taxes to the benefit of longtime property owners.

I'm not sure you understand the difference between an assessed value and market value.  Two completely different things.  Assessed values use whatever variables the government agency wants.  Market value is what the house will sell for, which is largely based on comparable properties that have sold nearby.  These two values are rarely the same, with market value being higher than tax assessed value.

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Re: 1 of 4? New York judge finds Donald Trump liable for fraud
« Reply #271 on: December 15, 2023, 08:53:17 AM »
It is not clear.  You didn't use your "smiley face."  What's clear is that you didn't understand that tax assessed value isn't the same as market value and that the assessor isn't going to revise an assessment based on Trump's contention that the market value is much higher.  Market value is almost always greater than the tax assessed value. 

I'm quite certain you needed that pointed out to you.  Not that it will do any good. . . .

So basically you rely on a smiley face to understand the written word.  Ok, got it.  Sounds like a shortcoming on your part. 

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Re: 1 of 4? New York judge finds Donald Trump liable for fraud
« Reply #272 on: December 15, 2023, 03:52:31 PM »
I'm not sure you understand the difference between an assessed value and market value.  Two completely different things.  Assessed values use whatever variables the government agency wants.  Market value is what the house will sell for, which is largely based on comparable properties that have sold nearby.  These two values are rarely the same, with market value being higher than tax assessed value.

The subprime mortgage crisis of 2008 resulted in a huge downturn in the housing market. Many people’s properties were assessed higher than market value. Some folks successfully challenged these assessments and were successful at getting them lowered. Market value drove these reduced assessments.
 
I bought my first house in 1970 and paid real estate taxes on it. At no point in the past 53 years have I not owned property or paid real estate taxes. If you believe I don't know the difference between assessed value and market value, you are nuts. And you did not read or did not comprehend what I previously wrote about real estate taxes. This is not surprising. There's much you think you know that you don't.

I got to thinking, since according to you I do not know the difference between assessed value and market value, I should probably surrender my Real Estate license.  ::)

deadz

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Re: 1 of 4? New York judge finds Donald Trump liable for fraud
« Reply #273 on: December 20, 2023, 02:59:13 PM »
Seems like all the Bidens have problems paying their taxes. Tick tock Bidens.
T

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Re: 1 of 4? New York judge finds Donald Trump liable for fraud
« Reply #274 on: December 20, 2023, 06:53:11 PM »
The subprime mortgage crisis of 2008 resulted in a huge downturn in the housing market. Many people’s properties were assessed higher than market value. Some folks successfully challenged these assessments and were successful at getting them lowered. Market value drove these reduced assessments.
 
I bought my first house in 1970 and paid real estate taxes on it. At no point in the past 53 years have I not owned property or paid real estate taxes. If you believe I don't know the difference between assessed value and market value, you are nuts. And you did not read or did not comprehend what I previously wrote about real estate taxes. This is not surprising. There's much you think you know that you don't.

I got to thinking, since according to you I do not know the difference between assessed value and market value, I should probably surrender my Real Estate license.  ::)

Don't fall into the trap of being so insecure that you start giving people your résumé like our resident insecure atheist (Agnostic).  It doesn't make your comments any more credible. 

If you are trying to use the subprime meltdown to discuss the relationship between assessed and market value, then you are just solidifying that you don't understand the difference.