only atheists are allowed to post in this thread.

[tbombz]

But it seems, to you, perfectly logical that the entity that could design all this didn't itself need a designer. Right? Do you not see the contradiction there?

The definition of God is "Eternal, uncreated, infinite Creator"

So, no, God does not need a designer.

(effects need a cause, God is not an effect)

[tbombz]

Yes I know a few, I have a book of the parables of Jesus and the Sermon on the Mount. My Dad used to be a catholic priest. I even played Jesus in a stations of the cross play at the church!

Those two you quoted are not from Jesus though! At least they are not the words of an enlightened man. Christ is within us all as the source of our being. We do not need a middle man. Hell has no power of conviction over me, nor do a need an everlasting heaven in the afterlife. To be one with the ground of my own being is to be one with God and what more can one need. That is my life's inner process.

Those are your thoughts..

But what does Jesus say on the matter?

If you accept that Jesus said "The Kingdom of God is within you" because the Bible says He did..

Then on what basis do you reject the other things that the Bible says He said?

Remember, the men who wrote the New Testament all gave their lives as martyrs, and endured terrible, terrible suffering and torture, and lives as poor and hated men... these men only did so because they saw Jesus perform miracles, raise the dead, and conquer death!  These men who wrote the New Testament, who recorded the words of Jesus, they were willing to suffer and die, and they did suffer and die, in order to preach the words that Jesus spoke!  And now you have the audacity to say... you know more about what Jesus said and didnt say that those men knew? On what basis?

The problem here, BigRo, is that you are not a believer. Your ideas are the ideas of a sinful human being who does not have direct access to God, even though you think you do. Your eyes are shut, your ears are closed, your nose cannot smell. You are completely unable to understand the mystery of God....    why? Because your sins have separated you from Him, and because you do not have The Holy Spirit of God living inside of you.

But, BigRo, I am praying for you.

[The Ugly]

Hey Primemuscle.

Because of the fact that I already met the boss, and the boss already proved to me that He is the boss, I would know that you were either deceived or lying.

Did you see him, hear him, or just feel him?

[Primemuscle]

My Dad used to be a catholic priest. I even played Jesus in a stations of the cross play at the church!

I believe it is a good thing that in some Catholic diocese priests can now be married. This change started in 1980 with Pope John Paul II and has moved slowly along when in 2009, Pope Benedict XVI took it a step further. One of the priests in our parish, St. Agatha, was a married man with children.

[The Ugly]

I believe it is a good thing that in some Catholic diocese priests can now be married. This change started in 1980 with Pope John Paul II and has moved slowly along when in 2009, Pope Benedict XVI took it a step further. One of the priests in our parish, St. Agatha, was a married man with children.

All well and good, but where are the altar boys gonna get their blowjobs now?

[el numero uno]

Not very christian to take it up the butt for money.

[The Ugly]

Say, how exactly does one sell his soul to the devil? I'm interested. If I ask for something simple - say, a nice house by the ocean, a cool car, and cash ... shouldn't this prove if the devil is real or not?

Someone help me set this up. Tbombz, Wiggs, etc.: What's an amateur satanist gotta do to get his soul sold? Do I need a crossroads, guitar, and special shoes? Or can I just do it here alone?

Dead fucking serious, Christians. Help a brother out.

[Primemuscle]

All well and good, but where are the altar boys gonna get their blowjobs now?

Your handle suits you.

I know you are just trying to be funny, but how do you know that it isn't the other way around?

[The Ugly]

Your handle suits you.

I know you are just trying to be funny, but how do you know that it isn't the other way around?

Other way how? The priests want the blowjobs? Whatever. But we both know closeted queers usually seek out dicks, not mouths.

[Primemuscle]

Say, how exactly does one sell his soul to the devil? I'm interested. If I ask for something simple - say, a nice house by the ocean, a cool car, and cash ... shouldn't this prove if the devil is real or not?

Someone help me set this up. Tbombz, Wiggs, etc.: What's an amateur satanist gotta do to get his soul sold? Do I need a crossroads, guitar, and special shoes? Or can I just do it here alone?

Dead fucking serious, Christians. Help a brother out.

I suspect are not really serious here. I'm no expert, but my suspicion is that there is no devil. If you are an evil doer (which I am not saying you are), I'll bet your punishment happens in this life and not the afterlife, provided there is one (we are asked to take this on faith). I doubt wanting material things makes you a sinner, it is what your willing to do to get these things that determines whether you are a good person or not.

[avxo]

The definition of God is "Eternal, uncreated, infinite Creator"

So, no, God does not need a designer.

(effects need a cause, God is not an effect)

So the Universe needs a creator, but the creator doesn't because... why? Because your beliefs require it to be so?

I am glad to try to help you understand the "Creationist" perspective.

Something tells me I'm going to be regretting debating physics with an idiot...

As for your question about the data collected from the hubble telescope, and trying to use that data to determine the "age of the universe"..

Well, there are various ways of interpreting the data.

I'm regretting it already...

For example.. does light always move at the same speed everywhere in the universe?

Yes. Based on everything that we know, the speed of light is a fundamental property of the Universe and it is constant. If you have objective, observable evidence to the contrary, present them.

Has light always moved at the same speed throughout all time?

Yes. Based on everything that we know, the speed of light is a fundamental property of the Universe and it is constant. If you have objective, observable evidence to the contrary, present them.

Are red shifts really a reliable measure of distance (empirical data says otherwise)?

Yes. Based on everything that we know, Hubble's law is correct and redshift (which represents recession speed) can be used to measure distances.

But, those questions aside, there are ways in which "the universe" can be both 6,000 years old and 14 billion years old at the same time.

So... much... bullshit...

You see, time is relative.

Are you suggesting relativistic effects are in play? Do you have any objective, observable evidence?

[SF1900]

The definition of God is "Eternal, uncreated, infinite Creator"

So, no, God does not need a designer.

(effects need a cause, God is not an effect)

Oh, how convenient. You just get to cross your arms, say this statement, and be done with it. No way to possibly debate such an asinine statement.

Failed logic.

[Primemuscle]

Other way how? The priests want the blowjobs? Whatever. But we both know closeted queers usually seek out dicks, not mouths.

How many times does one have to explain that pedophiles are about having power over a child (usually because they lack the confidence to interact sexually with their peers). It has nothing to do with being gay. The gay folks I know find pedophilia just as despicable as most straight folks do. I say most because straight pedophilia is not at all uncommon.

Don't include me in your apparent lack on knowledge about these things. For your information many gays are "tops" exclusively, some "swing both ways" and some only bottom. Even some of the big muscular men you all so admire.

[The Ugly]

I suspect are not really serious here. I'm no expert, but my suspicion is that there is no devil. If you are an evil doer (which I am not saying you are), I'll bet your punishment happens in this life and not the afterlife, provided there is one (we are asked to take this on faith). I doubt wanting material things makes you a sinner, it is what your willing to do to get these things that determines whether you are a good person or not.

Thanks for all that; but, again, unrelated lecture. Doesn't help anyone with anything. If you can't help with the soul transaction, please move along.

[The Ugly]

How many times does one have to explain that pedophiles are about having power over a child (usually because they lack the confidence to interact sexually with their peers). It has nothing to do with being gay. The gay folks I know find pedophilia just as despicable as most straight folks do. I say most because straight pedophilia is not at all uncommon.

Don't include me in your apparent lack on knowledge about these things. For your information many gays are "tops" exclusively, some "swing both ways" and some only bottom. Even some of the big muscular men you all so admire.

Spare me the PC bullshit. How the fuck would you know it's about power? Why, then, not "power" over a prepubescent vagina instead, dummy? Always boys, huh, how f'n coincidental.

Like you could even judge it objectively. Queers always get so defensive with this shit.

[SF1900]

Spare me the PC bullshit. How the fuck would you know it's about power? Why, then, not "power" over a prepubescent vagina instead, dummy? Always boys, huh, how f'n coincidental.

Like you could even judge it objectively. Queers always get so defensive with this shit.

1 in 3 girls and 1 in 5 boys will be sexually victiimized by the time they are 18 years of age.

Girls are sexually abused WAY more often than  boys.

Ive seen WAY more girls sexually abused by men than I have seen boys sexually abused by men.

Finally, a meta-analysis of 22 American-based studies, those done with national samples as well as local or regional representative samples, suggested that 30-40% of girls and 13% of boys experience sexual abuse during childhood[12]. An international meta-analysis of 169 studies found that lifetime prevalence rates of sexual abuse for females is 25% and for males is 8%.

Gender. It is well known that many more girls than boys are the victims of sexual abuse. This statistic is confirmed regardless of the information that is used. Across different types of research—all reliable studies conclude that girls experience more sexual abuse than do boys. Studies have found that the percent of victims who are female range from 78% to 89%

[The Ugly]

1 in 3 girls and 1 in 5 boys will be sexually victiimized by the time they are 18 years of age.

Girls are sexually abused WAY more often than  boys.

Ive seen WAY more girls sexually abused by men than I have seen boys sexually abused by men.

Finally, a meta-analysis of 22 American-based studies, those done with national samples as well as local or regional representative samples, suggested that 30-40% of girls and 13% of boys experience sexual abuse during childhood[12]. An international meta-analysis of 169 studies found that lifetime prevalence rates of sexual abuse for females is 25% and for males is 8%.

Gender. It is well known that many more girls than boys are the victims of sexual abuse. This statistic is confirmed regardless of the information that is used. Across different types of research—all reliable studies conclude that girls experience more sexual abuse than do boys. Studies have found that the percent of victims who are female range from 78% to 89%

Priests, bro.

[SF1900]

Priests, bro.

Oh, sorry, I must have missed the priest part. Too focused on the basile thread lol ha

[Skeletor]

Jesus did say that The Kingdom of God is inside you!

Feels like a deep tissue massage only it's inside your ass!

[Primemuscle]

Spare me the PC bullshit. How the fuck would you know it's about power? Why, then, not "power" over a prepubescent vagina instead, dummy? Always boys, huh, how f'n coincidental.

Like you could even judge it objectively. Queers always get so defensive with this shit.

Believe what you will. Statistics say otherwise. Often it is prepubescent vagina. You would know this if you did your homework before you posted.

"The distinction between a victim's gender and a perpetrator's sexual orientation is important because many child molesters don't really have an adult sexual orientation. They have never developed the capacity for mature sexual relationships with other adults, either men or women. Instead, their sexual attractions focus on children – boys, girls, or children of both sexes."

"The empirical research does not show that gay or bisexual men are any more likely than heterosexual men to molest children. This is not to argue that homosexual and bisexual men never molest children. But there is no scientific basis for asserting that they are more likely than heterosexual men to do so. And, as explained above, many child molesters cannot be characterized as having an adult sexual orientation at all; they are fixated on children."

http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/faculty_sites/rainbow/html/facts_molestation.html

[Primemuscle]

Priests, bro.

Begs the question; Have you personally had bad experiences with Priests?

[BigRo]

Those are your thoughts..

But what does Jesus say on the matter?

If you accept that Jesus said "The Kingdom of God is within you" because the Bible says He did..

Then on what basis do you reject the other things that the Bible says He said?

Remember, the men who wrote the New Testament all gave their lives as martyrs, and endured terrible, terrible suffering and torture, and lives as poor and hated men... these men only did so because they saw Jesus perform miracles, raise the dead, and conquer death!  These men who wrote the New Testament, who recorded the words of Jesus, they were willing to suffer and die, and they did suffer and die, in order to preach the words that Jesus spoke!  And now you have the audacity to say... you know more about what Jesus said and didnt say that those men knew? On what basis?

The problem here, BigRo, is that you are not a believer. Your ideas are the ideas of a sinful human being who does not have direct access to God, even though you think you do. Your eyes are shut, your ears are closed, your nose cannot smell. You are completely unable to understand the mystery of God....    why? Because your sins have separated you from Him, and because you do not have The Holy Spirit of God living inside of you.

But, BigRo, I am praying for you.

The praying for you part is almost condescending, kind of like how you imagine God to be towards someone who has no fear of hell.  

My eyes ears and nose are working very well thank you. Your dogmatic mind is keeping you from communing with the holy spirit inside of you. "Open your heart Judas not your mind" you and your fellow born agains are stuck on believing in the right way rather than the opening of the spiritual heart which is full of faith and devotion to god and sees the divine as the living essence of manifest things not just those who believe the same script.

The gospels were not written by Jesus disciples. I don't accept some things from the bible because the bible says so, but because they ring true with me on a deeper level and have concordance with universal spiritual wisdom.

The realization of the kingdom of heaven and the "I am a sinner" mantra are not compatible. At some stage you will need to drop this mantra and know yourself to be a divine child of god, perfect and free.  

[Man of Steel]

Time for a little disclaimer: I am about to counter every single one of the Bible verses you quote with another Bible verse. This doesn't suggest that I accept the Bible - I do not. You, however, do. I am using these quotes to highlight that the book that you rely on is inconsistent and logically flawed.

We do not know anything about his nature.

Not necessarily and that's not the way I used it. I don't think you're dishonest; in fact, I know that your beliefs are genuine even if you cannot rationally justify them. That's all fine and dandy. The problem is that you try to justify your beliefs by assertion. That's what I'm challenging.

And yet, he does. See Exodus 32:14: "So the Lord changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people." Even if you want the King James version, the change is still there - God repents. In the New King James version God relents. So clearly, God changes. And this is but one example.

You are defining divine to mean to have the quality of God or to be God, but we don't know what God is, so we have no idea of what that quality is.

The “I am who I am” bit is a tautology and it's meaningless. You are you who you are. A rock is what it is is. It tells us nothing. You cite this is as having to do with divinity, but it tells us nothing.

Again, you are using circular reasoning: The Bible is true because it's the word of God, and it tells us that God's years shall have no end. But even if you ignore the circular reasoning, this tells us little.  

Really? He was weary enough that he had to take a day off (Ex. 31:17).

Really? Exodus 15:11: "“Who is like you, O Lord, among the gods?" Also, Psalm 86:8: "Among the gods there is none like unto thee, O Lord."

Except when one is also three: 1 John 5:7 "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." How is that possible? Who knows. But clearly there's more than one.

No more or less logical than the Biblical God at any rate...

Clouds don't balance - that statement is meaningless. This entire thing tells us nothing about omniscience. What's "perfect knowledge"? What does that even mean? I've asked you this before. Clearly it can't mean omniscience: Otherwise, why would God need to come down to Sodom and Gomorrah himself to see and know what was going on. (Gen. 18:20-21)? Or not know what the Israelites were up to when they "made princes" (Hos. 8:4)?

It's a pity you have things like Jude 4: "For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation."

And let's not forget 2 Thes. 2:11-12: "God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned."

So much for free will...

Your definitions were flawed or insufficient.

Sure - a substitution of words. But why is it irrational or impossible when the word is "pink unicorn" but somehow possible when the word is "god"? I'll tell you why: because you are allowing your belief to cloud your rational judgement.

Foreknowledge can be bening - there's nothing bad with foreknowledge. The problem - which you're failing to address - is how does inerrant foreknowledge co-exist with free will. The answer is that it does not. You can have one or the other. You CANNOT have both.

No, rationality is not subjective. If your presupposition is that God is real, that doesn't make God rational or real.  

It's not benign to my choice. If God knows I'm going to choose to have pizza tonight and that knowledge is inerrant, I don't have any choice: it's pizza. I only have the illusion of choice.
  

And instead of providing clear and convincing evidence that he exists and that is, actually, his will, he requires a leap of faith long enough to qualify for the Ultra-Olympics!

I'm open to his will, if I can be convinced that (a) he exists and (b) that his will is what you claim it is.

You understand tautologies? If that's true, why say: "Total knowledge is total knowledge." That's a meaningless and completely vacuous statement. And, with respect, it's not something we're both doing.

I'm just allergic to bullshit.

If only scripture also didn't attest the opposite...

Through the scripture - so how's that different from the previous point.

When you can provide observable, quantifiable evidence that the Holy Spirit spirit exists and indwells believes me know.

If we have a proclivity to sin, to punish us for it is immoral and unjust.

Great - there's not argument there. You have had a direct, personal revelation. That's perfectly fine and, in fact, logically unassailable. But only when it comes to your belief; that direct personal revelation you had is meaningless to anyone other than you. For all we know, you're hearing voices.
 
Wow... you're like a fucking politician! What an argument... God allows people who he knows will reject him to be born because otherwise, some people couldn't have families..

Tell that to children slaughtered for the iniquity of their fathers (Isaiah 14:21). And to Eli's descendants (1 Samuel 3:12-13).

There are no innocents according to the Bible. Your warm and fuzzy feelings about reunions in heaven aside.

Except the little children that are cursed in the name of God (2 Kings 2:23-24).

Let me remind Jesus of Psalm 137:9: "Happy is the one who takes your babies and smashes them against the rocks!"

The moment we entertain the notion of what “God needs” we’re in error.  

Yes, yes... we get it. Believe first and then you can be given proof. How's that not putting the cart before the horse?

You asked me to highlight the logical fallacies in your argument. I did. Don't complain.

That's a non-sequitur, yes. That slapping a police officer might mean jail, therefore "slapping" God means eternal punishment is also a non-sequitur.

NO. This has nothing to do with worldviews and presuppositions. You assume the very thing that you are trying to prove. This is a logical fallacy. You may not like this, but it is.

What does it mean to break the law in the infinite?

In other words, we anthropomorphize God when it's convenient and we don't when it's not.

Well then, you, who do have a relationship with God, should be able to quickly and conclusively disprove every single one of those statements...

Thanks for the reply and yes I will reply back.  I don't post much (if at all) on the weekends so when I free up I'll dive in.

[SF1900]

The praying for you part is almost condescending, kind of like how you imagine God to be towards someone who has no fear of hell.  

My eyes ears and nose are working very well thank you. Your dogmatic mind is keeping you from communing with the holy spirit inside of you. "Open your heart Judas not your mind" you and your fellow born agains are stuck on believing in the right way rather than the opening of the spiritual heart which is full of faith and devotion to god and sees the divine as the living essence of manifest things not just those who believe the same script.

The gospels were not written by Jesus disciples. I don't accept some things from the bible because the bible says so, but because they ring true with me on a deeper level and have concordance with universal spiritual wisdom.

The realization of the kingdom of heaven and the "I am a sinner" mantra are not compatible. At some stage you will need to drop this mantra and know yourself to be a divine child of god, perfect and free.  

Tbombz is so far gone, there is no bringing him back to reality. When talking to MOS, you can still sense a shred of common sense and willing to admit when he is wrong. Not Tbombz. He still carries the same exact arrogance as he did both pre and post-bunny suit shenanigans. He was arrogant about a lot of things, including unprotected, promiscuous sex, and look what happened to him. He continues to be arrogant, now its just related to religion. Tbombz has always had this way about him (thinking he is better than everyone). Unfortunately, now its mixed with crazy religious stuff.

[calfzilla]

Tbombz is so far gone, there is no bringing him back to reality. When talking to MOS, you can still sense a shred of common sense and willing to admit when he is wrong. Not Tbombz. He still carries the same exact arrogance as he did both pre and post-bunny suit shenanigans. He was arrogant about a lot of things, including unprotected, promiscuous sex, and look what happened to him. He continues to be arrogant, now its just related to religion. Tbombz has always had this way about him (thinking he is better than everyone). Unfortunately, now its mixed with crazy religious stuff.

X2. One extreme to the other with the exact same mind set. The boy hasn't learned a damn thing.