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Getbig Misc Discussion Boards => Religious Debates & Threads => Topic started by: Marty Champions on September 28, 2015, 06:04:36 PM
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All made up or truth
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of Peace
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y256/honigga/getbig397.jpg)
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of Peace
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y256/honigga/getbig397.jpg)
Is this angelic or demonic form?
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The Angelic Form
(http://i44.tinypic.com/34tc2md.jpg)
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The Angelic Form
(http://i44.tinypic.com/34tc2md.jpg)
llooking good kwon
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All made up or truth
demonic and angelic activity....spiritual warfare.....all very true and very real
angelic hierarchy....true as well (I'm no expert on this topic)
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demonic and angelic activity....spiritual warfare.....all very true and very real
angelic hierarchy....true as well (I'm no expert on this topic)
Explain..
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Explain..
In terms of demonic activity:
I’ll do my best.
Demonic oppression is a term that defines the activities of those spiritual enemies of God (demons) who seek to oppress both believers and nonbelievers alike so that they will pull or turn from God’s will for their lives and engage in sinful behavior. Tactics of oppression play upon the person’s emotions and recognized weaknesses….it is spiritual warfare so strategy is employed. Fear, dread, anxiety, disconnection, addiction, anger, bitterness, jealousy are all used to oppress individuals (not an exhaustive list of tactics by any means). From my personal experience I’ve experienced a number of things I could speak about in length, but in short I’ve experienced recurring/irrational nightmares, irrational fear, irrational anxiety, desires for suicide, irrational anger and constantly questioning “are you really a Christian”. These have all been experienced at different times in my life and have been utilized by the enemy based upon my circumstance. C.S.Lewis’ book “The Screwtape Letters” is a wonderful portrayal of demonic oppression written from the perspective of demons at the helm of the oppression.
Demonic possession is literally when a demon takes possession of a person and that person becomes a shell or host for the demon(s). The majority of cases I’ve read about are based on people already deeply engaged in occult practices like witchcraft, voodoo, santeria, Satanism, etc…. In these instances people entrenched in these behaviors will become hosts for demons and their thoughts and actions controlled by demons because the person possessed is no longer in control. Possession implies ownership and those poor folks that succumb to possession no longer fully own who they are as individuals. These demons can speak through them and suppress who they are as I mentioned. It’s nothing I ever desire to see in person. Believers in Christ cannot be possessed by demons because they belong to God.
As I type these words I can feel the presence of the Holy Spirit with me.
For those that don’t know Christ I urge you to come to him and consider who is he and what he’s done for you. He loves you and wants to enter into an unbreakable relationship with you and help deliver you from your sin. I urge those that don’t know him and that would like to know him to pray that God reveal himself to you. He loves you more than you know and it’s never too late to surrender fully.
Romans 10:9
9 If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
God's heavenly host is also very real....I've had experiences that I haven't shared before. The vast majority on the boards wouldn't believe me.
There is a hiearchy of angels though....I have a book at home I haven't read through in several years that describes angels via scripture. There are seraphim, cherubim and archangels (big dogs). I honestly haven't looked up scripture on angels in a long time.
Someone else on the boards might have more to say regarding this topic.
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The Bible speaks of angels having different ranks. Out of all the righteous angels, the highest ranking are those who actually stand in the presence of and look upon the face of God.
The demons... well, we know that Satan is their "leader", but I'm not sure they have a real organization. They are a bunch of evil creatures, all of them knowing full well that they are going to burn in hell forever, so they don't have much reason to obey Satan.
The most important thing to understand is that, no matter the rank of Angel or demons, God is ultimately in control. Inside of Jesus there is nothing to fear, but if we disobey Jesus then we should repent.
Jesus is in control.
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The Bible speaks of angels having different ranks. Out of all the righteous angels, the highest ranking are those who actually stand in the presence of and look upon the face of God.
The demons... well, we know that Satan is their "leader", but I'm not sure they have a real organization. They are a bunch of evil creatures, all of them knowing full well that they are going to burn in hell forever, so they don't have much reason to obey Satan.
The most important thing to understand is that, no matter the rank of Angel or demons, God is ultimately in control. Inside of Jesus there is nothing to fear, but if we disobey Jesus then we should repent.
Jesus is in control.
Satan gets a bad rap. He ain't even a boogeyman in the OT. Just some angel, likes to mess with God is all, challenge Him. And nothing to do with the snake in Eden, either. That's all revisionism.
Will you guys at least acknowledge he didn't become the evil villain until the New Testament? And then, how do you ignore the obvious similarities to the Greeks' Hades, complete with Zeus casting him out and such? OT "hell" was simply the grave, where everyone went upon death.
Please answer this - logic, preferably, not scripture: If God's gonna totally reimagine Satan/hell for the NT, why would that reimagining so closely mimic ideas introduced to Israel by the Greeks and Persians? God's really this lazy?
And the NEW fire/torture ideas 'n imagery; doesn't it seem likely these represent Gehenna, an earthly locale used for fire sacrifice?
And why Satan/hell 2.0 at all, this isn't curious? Constantine establishes the West's new religion, and maybe eternal suffering is more persuasive than a grave? Maybe an evil Prince of Darkness is more likely to inspire conversion than a mischievous angel called "The Accuser"?
How do you reconcile this, critical thinkers?
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Satan gets a bad rap. He ain't even a boogeyman in the OT. Just some angel, likes to mess with God is all, challenge Him. And nothing to do with the snake in Eden, either. That's all revisionism.
Will you guys at least acknowledge he didn't become the evil villain until the New Testament? And then, how do you ignore the obvious similarities to the Greeks' Hades, complete with Zeus casting him out and such? OT "hell" was simply the grave, where everyone went upon death.
Please answer this - logic, preferably, not scripture: If God's gonna totally reimagine Satan/hell for the NT, why would that reimagining so closely mimic ideas introduced to Israel by the Greeks and Persians? God's really this lazy?
And the NEW fire/torture ideas 'n imagery; doesn't it seem likely these represent Gehenna, an earthly locale used for fire sacrifice?
And why Satan/hell 2.0 at all, this isn't curious? Constantine establishes the West's new religion, and maybe eternal suffering is more persuasive than a grave? Maybe an evil Prince of Darkness is more likely to inspire conversion than a mischievous angel called "The Accuser"?
How do you reconcile this, critical thinkers?
Some previous posts I grabbed quickly:
This is exactly why I often tell folks that I don't want them to be "eternally separated from God" because I don't know exactly what "hell" is or isn't.
I do grasp the eternality of God and the eternality of separation from him, but the "flames of hell". Literal? Figurative? Don't know.
I've heard defenses of both positions. I've read exactly what you noted. I've also searched out Sheol, Hades and Gehenna in lexicons and scoured articles for help. What I find is no consensus.
I think separation from God and all of his divine attributes is punishment enough. Will people experience the wrath of God's judgment? Absolutely. Will they have to come to terms with their choices and be separated from all of his goodness, mercy, grace, justice, love, etc.....? Yes.
We also read of "gnashing of teeth" and most associate that with the physical trauma, but people coping with mental stress and loss tend to gnash their teeth even more so.
Will folks simply be annihilated and cease to exist? Again I've read and heard both sides, but I don't think so. Still, existing in the flames of hell eternally doesn't seem reasonable, but I do believe God is just and that those that reject him will be dealt with accordingly. I've studied the "a temporary offense doesn't warrant an eternal punishment" objection and the apologetic response.....I discussed it on these boards.
What is the "fiery lake of burning sulfur"? Where is it? Depths of the earth? Another dimension? Literal? Figurative? The devil, false prophet and beast are indicated to burn in it forever. Will others be with them? What does that mean exactly? Is some of it literal and some of it figurative? Don't know....not versed enough.
Regardless, I choose to be aligned with Christ....that's who I want to spend eternity with. That's who I want others to come to know as well. The reality of the fates of the unbelievers I don't wish upon anyone because existing eternally or temporarily without God's divine attributes in that existence would be hell to me.
In this passage there is no mention of "hell", but the eternality of the after life is there:
Matthew 25:41-46
41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ 44 Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
What is the "eternal fire"? Literal? Figurative? What does the"eternal punishment" consist of? Something is going to happen and folks will be separated permanently from God and all he is. Are the "unquenchable fires of hell" the eternal realization of the implications of people's choices to be separated from God? Simply metaphors?
Yet the devil who knows his definite fate and will be cast into the lake of fire. No realization of separation from God will occur.....he's already separated and understands the ramifications. Seeks to manipulate God's creation into willfully rejecting God and joining him in that separation. So not a metaphor? Literal casting in burning sulfur?
Personally I have no desire to experience that situation. There's more to be said, but I've word vomited enough for this reply LOL.
Mithra, Horus and other mystery religions and cults are topics that new generations of atheists discover over and over. Unfortunately, they are antiquated and debunked arguments that are continually recycled as new. With Bill Maher's "Religulous" he helped introduce these topics to the current generation yet neglected to mention the history of the argumentation....gee, wonder why LOL?
Edwin Yamouchi is an expert on such topics and was part of a great Mithraic conference last century that discussed and debunked all the old arguments, but others prior to Dr. Yamouchi had already done the same.
What can I or anyone else do though? People love their "coffee house objections" whether they are valid or not. If you want I'll grab my literature on Mithra and show you how the comparisons between Mithraism and Christianity fall apart.
Why do I believe scripture, Jesus, Satan, angels, demons, Noah's ark, Garden of Eden, etc.....despite other flood narratives, Greek god and goddesses, Mithraism, other legends of dying and rising gods, various mystery religions, etc.....?
Upon deeper inspection what has been repeatedly uncovered is that the supposed, surface parallels between scripture and other non-biblical materials are often deemed weak, conflated and exaggerated.
Now my primary, personal answer for belief is simple. I know and have experienced the risen Christ. I've also experienced angelic and demonic activity. I don't share those experiences much on these boards because the majority of folks on GB wouldn't understand or care to understand.
Is hell real? Absolutely. Is it separation from God and all that he is? Absolutely. Is it for those that reject God? Absolutely. Is it eternal? Absolutely.
Do I know exactly what hell is or isn't? I do not.
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Satan gets a bad rap. He ain't even a boogeyman in the OT. Just some angel, likes to mess with God is all, challenge Him. And nothing to do with the snake in Eden, either. That's all revisionism.
Will you guys at least acknowledge he didn't become the evil villain until the New Testament? And then, how do you ignore the obvious similarities to the Greeks' Hades, complete with Zeus casting him out and such? OT "hell" was simply the grave, where everyone went upon death.
Please answer this - logic, preferably, not scripture: If God's gonna totally reimagine Satan/hell for the NT, why would that reimagining so closely mimic ideas introduced to Israel by the Greeks and Persians? God's really this lazy?
And the NEW fire/torture ideas 'n imagery; doesn't it seem likely these represent Gehenna, an earthly locale used for fire sacrifice?
And why Satan/hell 2.0 at all, this isn't curious? Constantine establishes the West's new religion, and maybe eternal suffering is more persuasive than a grave? Maybe an evil Prince of Darkness is more likely to inspire conversion than a mischievous angel called "The Accuser"?
How do you reconcile this, critical thinkers?
There is still a bunch of stuff in this post I will address. No more time now.
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Satan gets a bad rap. He ain't even a boogeyman in the OT. Just some angel, likes to mess with God is all, challenge Him. And nothing to do with the snake in Eden, either. That's all revisionism.
Will you guys at least acknowledge he didn't become the evil villain until the New Testament? And then, how do you ignore the obvious similarities to the Greeks' Hades, complete with Zeus casting him out and such? OT "hell" was simply the grave, where everyone went upon death.
Please answer this - logic, preferably, not scripture: If God's gonna totally reimagine Satan/hell for the NT, why would that reimagining so closely mimic ideas introduced to Israel by the Greeks and Persians? God's really this lazy?
And the NEW fire/torture ideas 'n imagery; doesn't it seem likely these represent Gehenna, an earthly locale used for fire sacrifice?
And why Satan/hell 2.0 at all, this isn't curious? Constantine establishes the West's new religion, and maybe eternal suffering is more persuasive than a grave? Maybe an evil Prince of Darkness is more likely to inspire conversion than a mischievous angel called "The Accuser"?
How do you reconcile this, critical thinkers?
one thing to consider is that there is one reality. We admit that the only perfectly true depiction of reality is found in Jesus Christ and the Holy Bible, however other religions and cultures and formed in the same reality that we are living in and thus they often times discover real aspects of reality. As a Christian i do expect other religions to come up with ideas that at least somewhat resemble reality, because human beings are made in God's image and are able to examine the world around them. So the parallels between Christianity, Greek mythology, Islam, etc are entirely understandable. Satan is real, and so any human who tried to figure out reality is likely to eventually figure out that fact.
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one thing to consider is that there is one reality. We admit that the only perfectly true depiction of reality is found in Jesus Christ and the Holy Bible, however other religions and cultures and formed in the same reality that we are living in and thus they often times discover real aspects of reality. As a Christian i do expect other religions to come up with ideas that at least somewhat resemble reality, because human beings are made in God's image and are able to examine the world around them. So the parallels between Christianity, Greek mythology, Islam, etc are entirely understandable. Satan is real, and so any human who tried to figure out reality is likely to eventually figure out that fact.
Appreciate the logical reply, thanks. And this would make sense IF the separate manifestations (religions, I mean) weren't all so Goddamned mutually exclusive:
"Believe this and only this, or burn."
"No, if you believe that and not this, you burn."
Makes no sense for God to exclude because he'd get his love and worship either way. But man, with pressing/self-serving interests, lack of foresight ...?
Last question: Is it emotion alone, this overwhelming 'Spirit' you've mentioned, that makes you secure in your choice? Because, logically, we all should be losing a little sleep, believer and non alike. Pascal obviously didn't think it through.
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No, my faith is not grounded in my emotional experiences. I have witnessed prayers be answered, and other miraculous works of God.
One thing that's good to consider is that, since we know God loves us enough to die on the cross for us, we can trust His loving judgement on unbelievers to be just.
Now, there is this one problem... There is no such thing as a person who deserves to go to heaven
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No, my faith is not grounded in my emotional experiences.
Of course not. It's grounded in supernatural revelation. Serious business, that... ::)
I have witnessed prayers be answered, and other miraculous works of God.
Interesting... interesting. Just one small problem: I know a girl who practices Santería. Like you, she claims to have witnessed prayers to be answered and observed miraculous works. Me, I think that you are both equally deluded and suffer from confirmation bias.
One thing that's good to consider is that, since we know God loves us enough to die on the cross for us, we can trust His loving judgement on unbelievers to be just.
So many things are wrong with this sentence. Assuming God exists, let's name a few: First of all, if God loved us, he wouldn't require us to jump through hoops to reach salvation. He'd just make it readily available. Next, if God died for us, then God can't now be alive, so you're worshiping a corpse. And last, what does love have to do with justice?
Now, there is this one problem... There is no such thing as a person who deserves to go to heaven
Or, at least, that's the premise behind your particular set of beliefs.
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I can't figure out the multi-quote, so this'll have to do.
No, my faith is not grounded in my emotional experiences. I have witnessed prayers be answered, and other miraculous works of God.
You know this is flimsy as Hades, correct? Unless, of course, they were miraculously restored limbs, which, of course, we know never happens. Resurrection is a close second, though, you see that?
One thing that's good to consider is that, since we know God loves us enough to die on the cross for us, we can trust His loving judgement on unbelievers to be just.
Not helpful, sorry. And granting the improbable, not especially loving or sacrificial, either. The opposite of sacrifice, really: Jesus was already gone, God got him BACK. Furthermore, as it pertains to God, is "die" really ever useful at all? C'mon. And "loving judgment," are you kidding? So, what, a soft, warm hug before the eternal burn? You're laughing as you type, huh?
Now, there is this one problem... There is no such thing as a person who deserves to go to heaven
Right, unworthy. Because some ancient ancestor ate fruit, makes perfect sense. Does your logical brain agree with this, condemnation for another's crime? Please answer this: If we are rotten because of what someone else did, how are we now capable of setting things straight on our own? I'm sure you can see the inconsistency here. And if your answer's just gonna explain the sacrifice again, nevermind. It won't help clarify anything.
Thank you.
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Of course not. It's grounded in supernatural revelation. Serious business, that... ::)
Interesting... interesting. Just one small problem: I know a girl who practices Santería. Like you, she claims to have witnessed prayers to be answered and observed miraculous works. Me, I think that you are both equally deluded and suffer from confirmation bias.
So many things are wrong with this sentence. Assuming God exists, let's name a few: First of all, if God loved us, he wouldn't require us to jump through hoops to reach salvation. He'd just make it readily available. Next, if God died for us, then God can't now be alive, so you're worshiping a corpse. And last, what does love have to do with justice?
Or, at least, that's the premise behind your particular set of beliefs.
Your friend who practices Santeria probably does have supernatural experiences. If you Youtube or Google 'satanism' you will find plenty of evidence of supernatural phenomena.
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Your friend who practices Santeria probably does have supernatural experiences. If you Youtube or Google 'satanism' you will find plenty of evidence of supernatural phenomena.
You missed the point: she claims her supernatural experiences are proof she's right and you're wrong; you claim the opposite. How can we, who aren't in contact with the supernatural using prayers and sacrifices, supposed to know which one of you is right or if you're both whacked out of your mind?
If your God is real and performs miracles why doesn't he perform one so miraculous and unambiguous that nobody could claim it's anything other than a genuine miracle? Why has the frequency of miracles tapered off as history has moved on and people understand more about the world around them?
It's because he's a figment of your imagination, that's why.
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Your friend who practices Santeria probably does have supernatural experiences. If you Youtube or Google 'satanism' you will find plenty of evidence of supernatural phenomena.
YouTube evidence, of course you believe. Why wouldn't you, really.
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You missed the point: she claims her supernatural experiences are proof she's right and you're wrong; you claim the opposite. How can we, who aren't in contact with the supernatural using prayers and sacrifices, supposed to know which one of you is right or if you're both whacked out of your mind?
If your God is real and performs miracles why doesn't he perform one so miraculous and unambiguous that nobody could claim it's anything other than a genuine miracle? Why has the frequency of miracles tapered off as history has moved on and people understand more about the world around them?
It's because he's a figment of your imagination, that's why.
avxo, you ask me why God doesnt prove Himself to you.
Do you feel that you are somehow entitled to such a blessing?
What have you done that makes you deserving of more than what you have already been given?
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No, my faith is not grounded in my emotional experiences. I have witnessed prayers be answered, and other miraculous works of God.
You know this is flimsy as Hades, correct? Unless, of course, they were miraculously restored limbs, which, of course, we know never happens. Resurrection is a close second, though, you see that?
Even if I had witnessed a literal resurrection..... you still wouldn't believe me, so what difference does it make?
One thing that's good to consider is that, since we know God loves us enough to die on the cross for us, we can trust His loving judgement on unbelievers to be just.
Not helpful, sorry. And granting the improbable, not especially loving or sacrificial, either. The opposite of sacrifice, really: Jesus was already gone, God got him BACK. Furthermore, as it pertains to God, is "die" really ever useful at all? C'mon. And "loving judgment," are you kidding? So, what, a soft, warm hug before the eternal burn? You're laughing as you type, huh?
You don't think that it is loving and sacrificial for God to become a human being and then allow people to physically torture him to death? ::)
Loving judgement.... as in, you can trust that God will not condemn anyone who is legitimately innocent. God loves your friends and your family more than you do, and you can trust that He will judge with love and mercy.
Just don't be surprised when your friends and family's hearts and minds are revealed and they turn out to be a thousand times uglier and more evil than you ever imagined was a possibility.
Now, there is this one problem... There is no such thing as a person who deserves to go to heaven
Right, unworthy. Because some ancient ancestor ate fruit, makes perfect sense. Does your logical brain agree with this, condemnation for another's crime? Please answer this: If we are rotten because of what someone else did, how are we now capable of setting things straight on our own? I'm sure you can see the inconsistency here. And if your answer's just gonna explain the sacrifice again, nevermind. It won't help clarify anything.
The Bible actually teaches that a person will be judged based on their own merits. We all do inherit a sinful nature, but if we never went above and beyond that inherent sinful nature then God would not condemn us to hell. It is because we go above and beyond, way beyond, our sinful nature that each of us is individually condemned.
Unless we repent and trust in the Savior.
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avxo, you ask me why God doesnt prove Himself to you.
No, that's not what I ask. I ask why does a deity that want us to worship it not make itself plainly visible to all, so that we may worship it. I ask why does a deity that claim to love us unconditionally requires us to do anything to achieve salvation from a punishment that it has decided must be inflicted on us for not living up to its standard through no fault of our own.
I ask what does God need with a starship? (http://youtu.be/WYW_lPlekiQ)
Do you feel that you are somehow entitled to such a blessing?
If this deity expects me to worship it then I not only think I'm entitled to it; I, in fact, demand it. More than that, I demand that it prove itself worthy of my worship.
What have you done that makes you deserving of more than what you have already been given?
Given what and by whom? Your deity gave me nothing. Other people gave me nothing. The only people who ever gave me anything are my parents and they seek nothing in return. Everything else, I got myself through hard work and perseverance.
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What if you've already been given proof, but your subconscious just won't admit it because you prefer your selfishness and hate the idea of worshipping God?
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What if you've already been given proof,
Forget the "what if". The simple fact is I haven't. And you haven't either; if you had, you wouldn't need the cornerstone of your religion: faith which is belief in the absence of evidence.
but your subconscious just won't admit it because you prefer your selfishness and hate the idea of worshipping God?
I'm sorry - I don't speak bullshit. Look, I'm a rational, objective person. I weigh the facts to the best of my ability, no matter where they lead me. If you have actual evidence to offer up, then provide them. If you don't, then don't bother trying to convince me to share your beliefs, especially since you're unable to even define what, exactly, it is that you believe in.
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You know for an absolute fact that you have not been given any proof?
And you also know for an absolute fact that supernatural revelation is impossible?
Can you prove these assertions mathematically?
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1) Even if I had witnessed a literal resurrection..... you still wouldn't believe me, so what difference does it make?
2) You don't think that it is loving and sacrificial for God to become a human being and then allow people to physically torture him to death? ::)
3) Loving judgement.... as in, you can trust that God will not condemn anyone who is legitimately innocent. God loves your friends and your family more than you do, and you can trust that He will judge with love and mercy.
4) Just don't be surprised when your friends and family's hearts and minds are revealed and they turn out to be a thousand times uglier and more evil than you ever imagined was a possibility.
5) The Bible actually teaches that a person will be judged based on their own merits. We all do inherit a sinful nature, but if we never went above and beyond that inherent sinful nature then God would not condemn us to hell. It is because we go above and beyond, way beyond, our sinful nature that each of us is individually condemned.
Unless we repent and trust in the Savior.
1) None, because it obviously couldn't happen. Just commenting on the probable chance and/or subjective nature likely attached to your experiences. But for the archive: Are you, in fact, claiming to have witnessed a resurrection?
2) Loving? No. Completely unnecessary and sadistic as fuck. Didn't need it, and it never had to happen. God built a faulty product, knowing beforehand it would fail. Ultimately, that's on Him. Furthermore, inherited sin is illogical bullshit - and even if we accept the premise, plenty of nonviolent, PG-13 alternatives He could've employed instead. Scrap everything or simply hit reset? He alone chose the masochistic bloodlust because that's who the new authors decided He was.
Also, based on His obscene ego in the OT, don't believe for a second He actually endured the full crucuifixion experience. I'd feel more pity for the thousands of others - the true humans - knowing there was no hocus pocus out-of-body, or nerve ending shenaniganism and whatnot to help mitigate suffering.
3) Empty rhetoric, friend. Truth: Faith in the Lord is a paradise requirement, correct? Some, like myself, are born skeptics. We have no faith gene; hence nonbelief, hence hell. This is the part many of your ilk won't acknowledge. Guess it's just like me with your resurrection, you would neither believe nor understand. So hard for me to buy 'fair judgment.'
And, dude, if He loves my friends/family so damn much, why do they keep coming to ME for fucking money? You have no idea how much I wanna reply to one of these retarded "God is soooo good" Facebook posts, after I just Western Unioned them another 1500 bucks. I'd quite enjoy posting a little fuck you truth to their prayer warriors. Then 'Like' my own shit, the dummies.
4) Wait, huh? What's this got to do with Chinese tea? Sounds personal, but fuck 'em.
5) Eh, not really. We behave for the most part, far as important stuff goes. Real morality, I mean, not mindcrimes, sycophantic worship, or alienating friends/family with annoying proselytizing and such. But how is any of this really about morality? I'd even argue we're more moral these days, when judged objectively. Remove God from the equation, pretty hard to make a case for much of biblical morality.
And bottom line: Any God who prioritizes belief over deeds really isn't worth worshipping. Certainly wouldn't want to spend eternity with such an insecure narcissist.
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Ugly, your not the only one who was born a skeptic with no faith gene!
I remember being taken to "Sunday school" (although it was on a Wednesday) as a young child, around the age of 8 or 9, and thinking to myself how stupid religion was, and how obvious it was that people only believe in God because they are afraid to die.
I was a die-hard atheist for the first 20 years of my life, and I was able to argue against religious belief as good as any popular atheistic intellectual.
If your at all interested in this subject, you may be interested in Anthony Flew! He was the "Richard Dawkins" of the 20th century, one of the most famous atheists of all time!
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Ugly, your not the only one who was born a skeptic with no faith gene!
I remember being taken to "Sunday school" (although it was on a Wednesday) as a young child, around the age of 8 or 9, and thinking to myself how stupid religion was, and how obvious it was that people only believe in God because they are afraid to die.
I was a die-hard atheist for the first 20 years of my life, and I was able to argue against religious belief as good as any popular atheistic intellectual.
If your at all interested in this subject, you may be interested in Anthony Flew! He was the "Richard Dawkins" of the 20th century, one of the most famous atheists of all time!
Here's my child skeptic: Mom drug the family to some urgent service about the upcoming rapture, double feature to follow: A Distant Thunder/Thief in the Night (both on YouTube). Total mindfuck for a kid who just wants to play ball, right? Death, suffering, torture, hell, coming soon and all. Afterward, another hour or so discussing, getting saved, etc. Scariest, most depressing shit ever.
The whole night, through the sermon, the movies, our chat, I had ONE thought: Do we get a second chance?
I was so entirely convinced I COULDN'T believe, I knew I'd never make the first cut. But I figured, hell, if I actually see Jesus come down from the sky, that'll convince me, right? So maybe there's some second chance loophole? Die without the mark or whatever, I didn't know.
Point being, that's what I'd need in order to believe.
Everyone just dismissed my concerns, because, "Just believe, son, no worries," like it's that easy.
Understood then that I couldn't simply choose to believe; learned, too, that some folks think you can, which probably explains the 'chose to be gay' mentality. Also reveals one of the flaws in Pascal's Wager.
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You know for an absolute fact that you have not been given any proof?
I'm telling you that I haven't been given proof. This is a fact - I don't have a proof for the existence of a deity which I keep tucked away in a drawer, safely out of sight and out of mind. What more do you need? Are you going to suggest that you feel you've been given a proof and that that proof should be good enough for me too? Sorry - that's not how this work.
And you also know for an absolute fact that supernatural revelation is impossible?
Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that it isn't. Let's also assume that something is supernaturally revealed to me. What good is it? I could never hope to convince someone else that the experience was real and not the result of a hallucination. Hell, I might not even be able to convince myself of that.
Is supernatural revelation possible? Well, many things are possible. It's possible, for example, that tomorrow at noon Pacific time, NASA engineers unveil faster-than-light propulsion. It's not likely, but it's possible.
But that's not even the biggest problem. The problem is that the question "is supernatural the revelation possible" is flawed. What does the term "supernatural revelation" mean? How does one distinguish it from "natural" revelation? How does it purport to work? What does it mean to be "outside of nature"?
Can you prove these assertions mathematically?
You are the one claiming that supernatural revelation is possible and suggesting it's a viable mechanism of acquiring knowledge. The burden of proof of those extraordinary statements is on you and nobody else and I won't let you shift it.
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Ugly, your not the only one who was born a skeptic with no faith gene!
I remember being taken to "Sunday school" (although it was on a Wednesday) as a young child, around the age of 8 or 9, and thinking to myself how stupid religion was, and how obvious it was that people only believe in God because they are afraid to die.
I was a die-hard atheist for the first 20 years of my life, and I was able to argue against religious belief as good as any popular atheistic intellectual.
If your at all interested in this subject, you may be interested in Anthony Flew! He was the "Richard Dawkins" of the 20th century, one of the most famous atheists of all time!
So we're supposed to believe that after decades of reasoned and considered unbelief, you received - supernaturally one would imagine - conclusive proof of and evidence for the existence of the Christian deity?
As opposed to the more reasonable explanation that, faced with the consequences of your promiscuous lifestyle in the form an HIV positive diagnosis, you sought the very same comfort that those people at the Sunday school sought?
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Here's my child skeptic: Mom drug the family to some urgent service about the upcoming rapture, double feature to follow: A Distant Thunder/Thief in the Night (both on YouTube). Total mindfuck for a kid who just wants to play ball, right? Death, suffering, torture, hell, coming soon and all. Afterward, another hour or so discussing, getting saved, etc. Scariest, most depressing shit ever.
The whole night, through the sermon, the movies, our chat, I had ONE thought: Do we get a second chance?
I was so entirely convinced I COULDN'T believe, I knew I'd never make the first cut. But I figured, hell, if I actually see Jesus come down from the sky, that'll convince me, right? So maybe there's some second chance loophole? Die without the mark or whatever, I didn't know.
Point being, that's what I'd need in order to believe.
Everyone just dismissed my concerns, because, "Just believe, son, no worries," like it's that easy.
Understood then that I couldn't simply choose to believe; learned, too, that some folks think you can, which probably explains the 'chose to be gay' mentality. Also reveals one of the flaws in Pascal's Wager.
Ugly,
I am sorry that you had a terrible experience. There are many Christians who are so zealous for the faith that they forget common human decency and proper social graces.
Now, anyone who says that a person can simply choose to believe is ignorant... The Bible says that faith is a gift from God; that it is impossible for a human being to truly believe the Gospel without supernatural revelation and regeneration.
As for the choose to be gay idea... some people do choose to be gay. Sexuality is, after all, quite fluid. But a lot of people are shaped by their genetics and by their environment to be homosexual. In fact, the Bible teaches that we are all born in sin, and that all of our innate desires are perverse. So, the idea of being born gay is actually quite biblical. We are born selfish, hateful, prideful, perverse, etc etc.
So we're supposed to believe that after decades of reasoned and considered unbelief, you received - supernaturally one would imagine - conclusive proof of and evidence for the existence of the Christian deity?
As opposed to the more reasonable explanation that, faced with the consequences of your promiscuous lifestyle in the form an HIV positive diagnosis, you sought the very same comfort that those people at the Sunday school sought?
I have considered the idea that maybe my experiences were a subconscious attempt at giving myself comfort in the face of death. However, upon examination, the idea just doesn't hold up.
AVXO, your an intelligent guy. A 'free thinker". Surely you know that the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence? Why don't you open your mind to the mere possibility that maybe there is more to life than you know? Or do you think that your knowledge encompasses everything in all of reality?
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Ugly,
1) I am sorry that you had a terrible experience. There are many Christians who are so zealous for the faith that they forget common human decency and proper social graces.
2) Now, anyone who says that a person can simply choose to believe is ignorant... The Bible says that faith is a gift from God; that it is impossible for a human being to truly believe the Gospel without supernatural revelation and regeneration.
3) As for the choose to be gay idea... some people do choose to be gay. Sexuality is, after all, quite fluid. But a lot of people are shaped by their genetics and by their environment to be homosexual. In fact, the Bible teaches that we are all born in sin, and that all of our innate desires are perverse. So, the idea of being born gay is actually quite biblical. We are born selfish, hateful, prideful, perverse, etc etc.
1) Well, Mom felt guilty later. She didn't really know what to expect at the time, just pressured by friends and her church. And she had no idea it messed with me so much.
2) Odd that it'd be a gift. Thought the whole idea was love/worship, not hide 'n seek. And if being worshipped is the goal, what exactly is served by making faith (belief in spite of evidence) a prerequisite? Our brains (that He designed) don't work that way; makes absolutely no sense, considering how much love/worship He misses out on by excluding otherwise loving skeptics.
3) Wasn't positing anything for debate, just addressing a commonly held belief. But I sort of agree, I guess. At least with women. Imagine most men are born one way or the other, though environment can factor in as well.
And no disrespect, but anything that follows "the Bible says/teaches" is utterly useless to me. But I do appreciate the rest.