Decline press- most underrated exercise

[chaos]

i think one major point here that nobody seems to be retaining is that the purpouse of the pectoralis is to pull the arm down and across the body. the decline makes you move your arms down and across your body. flat bench is not down and across, but just across. the farther away from decline one moves, the closer to incline, the less pec involvement and the more shoulder.

Says who? Sure seems like the purpose could be to pull the arm straight across the chest, this movement would also develop the pec muscle.

Maybe flat flyes is the most underrated chest exercise?

[tbombz]

look at the anatomy of the chest. it connects to arm pit to the sternum. down and across the body.

[chaos]

look at the anatomy of the chest. it connects to arm pit to the sternum. down and across the body.

So it's not connected all the way up the sternum?



http://www.fitstep.com/Advanced/Anatomy/Chest.htm

[tbombz]

yeah, the chest is involved in any motion where the arm is moved across the body,

whether its down and across and the chest is doing all the work,

if its straight across and still mostly chest but the shoulder start to help a little more,

or across and up where the chest is doing alot of the work but so is the shoulders.

[Meso_z]

Jay said in a couple of his videos that he built his chest and MAINLY his UPPER chest doing a lot of declines..

[chaos]

Jay said in a couple of his videos that he built his chest and MAINLY his UPPER chest doing a lot of declines..

Links?

For the record, I think declines are a useful movement in the overall development of the chest, however I do no think they are the best exercise. My personal experience leads me to see them as a "once in awhile" add on movement.

[Meso_z]

Links?

For the record, I think declines are a useful movement in the overall development of the chest, however I do no think they are the best exercise. My personal experience leads me to see them as a "once in awhile" add on movement.

When he trains chest in "One step closer" nearly at the end of the workout when he does declines..and in his dvd "from Jay to Z", also in the end  of his routine when he does declines.

As i recall he also said that when he does declines he tries to touch his chest with his chin in order to get a better contraction..

Theres also a vid over at md's video section with Dorian training Zach Khan when he was still an amateur and he has him do declines instead of flat benching.

It feels a bit uncomfortable though with all this blood rushing into your head im feeling that my head is going to explode or im gonna have a stroke in a ny minute lol. Thats why i prefer doing them on a flat bench, with couple 45lbs plates under just to create a slight decline angle.

[benchmstr]

yeah, the chest is involved in any motion where the arm is moved across the body,

whether its down and across and the chest is doing all the work,

if its straight across and still mostly chest but the shoulder start to help a little more,

or across and up where the chest is doing alot of the work but so is the shoulders.

bro, you think way to much about this stuff.....just lift the damn weight, and see if it works...

bench

[tbombz]

bro, you think way to much about this stuff.....just lift the damn weight, and see if it works...

bench

its not that i think too much. i never did declines. ive always had a weak chest and a hard time getting a strong pec contraction without a strong delt contraction going along with it. declines have allowed me to build up my chest without hiting my shoulders.

[Montague]

Dizzy,
Did I read that you're taking classes for something?

I don't know what you're studying for, but did you ever think of becoming an exercise scientist?
I'm talking about the kind of people Poliquin cites in his articles and books.
You obviously like the science behind the training, and I believe you're interested & disciplined enough to stick out the schooling.

If you learn your shit, get published, and make a name for yourself, I'm sure you could make some very good money coaching, consulting, training - whatever - at the college, pro, Olympic, etc. levels.
And, you'd be doing something you love.

[jpm101]

One of the current idea's being, is that it is not so much muscle contraction but rather the Time Under Tension (TUT)  that produces the most and fastest  results. TUT requires that never a full contraction or a full stretch (nothing even near total ROM) is done. Rather the reps are kept mid range and preformed rather quickly. Keeping tension on the working muscle at all times during the set preformed.

This would be considered partial rep training (many other ways to preform partial's...this is just one of them) which quite a few very huge men adapt to when working out. In fact just about every exceptional muscular large man I have witnessed  (in person...including some Pro's) follows this type of TUT workout. It's mid range reps than seem the most effective, for most men.

You may not get super strong when training TUT style for the pecs/chest but you may get much larger and rather quickly. Quite a few BB'ers using 240-260 TUT style for benches have more impressive chest that guy's doing over 400 in many gyms. Like anything else, TUT or any other style may not work for everyone the same way. The same as 'roids don't give the same results for different users. But may be worth a try for getting great improvement for the pec's/chest.

As far as Pro training video's go, they most never tell the true story of how most successful BB'ers workout. If you live in Mud Flats,Tenn and the only training knowledge you get is from some of the Pro's videos or magazine articles then you might go forward in your own training with caution. May be worth the expense and time to come to NY, Las Vegas or SoCal and see for yourself how some of these huge men really train. And be a fly on the wall and see how much junk they shoot up twice to three times a day, every day, to get in "in shape" for a show or expo. Or how fat they are and how bad their skin and eyes look off season. Good Luck.

[Montague]

JPM:
Concerning the way Branch performs military presses in the clip below, is this similar to what you're describing insofar as TUT, ROM, tempo, etc.?

[Fatpanda]

there have been studies done on this.

emg's etc show that decline db presses activate more of the pec major muscle fibre than any other movement.

db incline presses activate the pec minor fibres more than any other movement - with the bb versions 2nd

flat presses db then bb are middle of the road.

[chaos]

there have been studies done on this.

emg's etc show that decline db presses activate more of the pec major muscle fibre than any other movement.

db incline presses activate the pec minor fibres more than any other movement - with the bb versions 2nd

flat presses db then bb are middle of the road.

Links to said studies?

[jpm101]

Montague: Actually thoses are high incline presses rather than military or front presses. Notice the heavy involvement of the upper chest in the video's. There are real overhead pressing  sitting benches that form a 90 degree angle to support the back, less back bend also. With  true military/front press the bar is pretty much directly overhead at the top position. Can handle much more weight on those high inclines than regular overhead pressing.

The last frames (with the guy pressing on that universal type machine) is more the TUT style. Never coming completely down or completely all the way up.  Stress on the working muscle at all times and a short ROM. With the inclines, the bar touches/rebounds off the upper chest. Good style for most experienced lifters, with the tension reduced as the bar drops towards the chest. With TUT there is more control of the weight coming down and going back up. Make no mistake, those guy's know what their doing and hitting it hard at that fast pace.Giving a good example to others.  I prefer that way of working out. More of a power style of BB'ing.  Good Luck.

[Montague]

Montague: Actually thoses are high incline presses rather than military or front presses. Notice the heavy involvement of the upper chest in the video's. There are real overhead pressing  sitting benches that form a 90 degree angle to support the back, less back bend also. With  true military/front press the bar is pretty much directly overhead at the top position. Can handle much more weight on those high inclines than regular overhead pressing.

The last frames (with the guy pressing on that universal type machine) is more the TUT style. Never coming completely down or completely all the way up.  Stress on the working muscle at all times and a short ROM. With the inclines, the bar touches/rebounds off the upper chest. Good style for most experienced lifters, with the tension reduced as the bar drops towards the chest. With TUT there is more control of the weight coming down and going back up. Make no mistake, those guy's know what their doing and hitting it hard at that fast pace.Giving a good example to others.  I prefer that way of working out. More of a power style of BB'ing.  Good Luck.

Not an important point but I prefer the rebound effect more. Just my view.

Okay, thank you.

[Fatpanda]

Links to said studies?

main 2 studies on decline/incline for maximum pec development:

Electromyographical activity of the pectoralis muscle during incline and decline bench presses

The purpose of this study was to determine the relationship between motor unit recruitment within two areas of the pectoralis major and two forms of bench press exercise. Fifteen young men experienced in weight lifting completed 6 repetitions of the bench press at incline and decline angles of +30 and -15[degrees] from horizontal, respectively. Electrodes were placed over the pectoralis major at the 2nd and 5th intercostal spaces, midclavicular line. Surface electromyography was recorded and integrated during the concentric (Con) and eccentric (Ecc) phases of each repetition. Reliability of IEMG across repetitions was r = 0.87. Dependent means t-tests were used to examine motor unit activation for the lower (incline vs. decline) and upper pectoral muscles. Results showed significantly greater lower pectoral Con activation during decline bench press. The same result was seen during the Ecc phase. No significant differences were seen in upper pectoral activation between incline and decline bench press. It is concluded there are variations in the activation of the lower pectoralis major with regard to the angle of bench press, while the upper pectoral portion is unchanged.

fulltext:

http://www.edulife.com.br/dados/artigos/educacao%20fisica/muscula%C3%A7%C3%A3o%20e%20condicionamento%20fisico/eletromiografia%20do%20peitoral.pdf

and :

Effects of Variations of the Bench Press Exercise on the EMG Activity of Five Shoulder Muscles

This experiment investigated the effects of varying bench inclination and hand spacing on the EMG activity of five muscles acting at the shoulder joint. Six male weight trainers performed presses under four conditions of trunk inclination and two of hand spacing at 80% of their predetermined max. Preamplified surface EMG electrodes were placed over the five muscles in question. The EMG signals during the 2-sec lift indicated some significant effects of trunk inclination and hand spacing. The sternocostal head of the pectoralis major was more active during the press from a horizontal bench than from a decline bench. Also, the clavicular head of the pectoralis major was no more active during the incline bench press than during the horizontal one, but it was less active during the decline bench press. The clavicular head of the pectoralis major was more active with a narrow hand spacing. Anterior deltoid activity tended to increase as trunk inclination increased. The long head of the triceps brachii was more active during the decline and flat bench presses than the other two conditions, and was also more active with a narrow hand spacing. Latissimus dorsi exhibited low activity in all conditions.







also more studies were done by tudor o bompa for his book serious strength training - which i own:

Electromyographical (EMG) Research is an essential research tool allowing physiologists to determine the role of muscles during specific movements. EMG is a scientific method of measuring the level of excitation. This is done by placing electrodes over your body and recording the level of muscle activity induced by an exercise. A study was conducted to find which exercises cause the greatest amount of activity within each muscle group and, as a consequence, determine which exercises will produce the greatest gains in mass and strength. This study was conducted by Tudor O. Bompa, PhD & Lorenzo J. Cornacchia. Both men and women were used in the sudy and all subjects had at least two years experience with resistance training.

Here are the results of that study:
(100% would signify maximum muscle fiber stimulation)

Pectoralis Major
Decline dumbbell bench press ----------------93%
Decline bench press, Olympic bar(OB)---------89
Push-ups between benches --------------------88
Flat dumbbell bench press -------------------87
Flat bench press (OB) -----------------------85
Flat dumbbell flyes --------------------------84

Pectoralis Minor
Incline dumbbell bench press ----------------91%
Incline bench press (OB) --------------------85
Incline dumbbell flyes -----------------------83
Incline bench press (smith machine) ---------81

Medial Deltoids
Incline dumbbell (db) side laterals ----- 66%
Standing db side laterals -------63
Seated db side laterals -----62
Cable side laterals -----47

Posterior Deltoids
Standing db bent laterals ----- 85%
Seated db bent laterals -----83
Standing cable bent laterals -----77

Anterior Deltoids
Seated front db press -----79%
Standing front db raises -----73
Seated front barbell press -----61

Biceps brachii (long head)
Preacher curls (Ob) -------------------- 90%
Incline seated Db curls (alternate) ------ 88
Standing biceps curls (Ob/narrow grip)--- 86
Standing Db curls (alternate) ----------- 84
Concentration Db curls ------------------ 80
Standing curls (Ob/wide grip)------------ 63
Standing E-Z curls (wide grip) ----------- 61

Triceps brachii (outer head)
Decline extensions (Ob) ------------------ 92%
Triceps pressdowns (angled bar) ----------- 90
Dips with a bench --------------------------87
One-arm cable extensions (reverse grip) - 85
Overhead rope extensions ------------------ 85
Seated one-arm Db extensions (neutral grip)- 82
Close-grip bench press (Ob) --------------- 72

Latissimus dorsi (back)
Bent-over Bb rows ---------------------------93%
One-arm Db rows -----------------------------91
T-bar rows ----------------------------------89
Lat pulldowns to the front ------------------86
Seated pulley rows --------------------------83

Rectus femoris (quads)
Safety squats (90 degree angle, shoulder width stance) ----88%
seated leg extensions (toes straight) -------86
Hack squats (90 degree angle, shoulder width stance) ----78
Leg press (110 degree angle) ----------------76
Smith machine (90 degree angle, shoulder width stance) ----60

Biceps femoris (hamsring)
Standing leg curls --------------------------82%
Lying leg curls -----------------------------71
Seated leg curls ----------------------------58
Modified hamstring deads --------------------56

Semitendinosus (inner hamstring)
Seated leg curls ----------------------------88
Standing leg curls --------------------------79
Lying leg curls -----------------------------70
Modified hamstring deads --------------------63

Gastrocnemius (calf muscle)
Donkey raises -------------------------------80
Standing one-leg raises ---------------------79
Standing two-leg raises ---------------------68
Seated raises -------------------------------61

the book 'target bodybuilding' by per a tesch also has lots of scans done using MRI that proves that we can work/develop specific parts of the muscle, i.e. outer thigh, inner thigh, specific head of tri's, etc by changing the angle or exercise.

these MRI tests also agree/confirm bompa's and others aboves findings.

[Montague]

That’s a good article/study.
EMG studies are quite accurate at indicating muscle fiber activation.
However, do not mistake those statistics as equating to the best exercise for a particular muscle.

I don’t doubt Jay made those comments concerning his results with decline presses.
Nor, do I doubt his results themselves.

Bodybuilding is - and will always be - very individualistic.
Certain movements will always work better for some than others & vice versa regardless of EMG readings.

[chaos]

main 2 studies on decline/incline for maximum pec development:

Electromyographical activity of the pectoralis muscle during incline and decline bench presses

The purpose of this study was to determine the relationship between motor unit recruitment within two areas of the pectoralis major and two forms of bench press exercise. Fifteen young men experienced in weight lifting completed 6 repetitions of the bench press at incline and decline angles of +30 and -15[degrees] from horizontal, respectively. Electrodes were placed over the pectoralis major at the 2nd and 5th intercostal spaces, midclavicular line. Surface electromyography was recorded and integrated during the concentric (Con) and eccentric (Ecc) phases of each repetition. Reliability of IEMG across repetitions was r = 0.87. Dependent means t-tests were used to examine motor unit activation for the lower (incline vs. decline) and upper pectoral muscles. Results showed significantly greater lower pectoral Con activation during decline bench press. The same result was seen during the Ecc phase. No significant differences were seen in upper pectoral activation between incline and decline bench press. It is concluded there are variations in the activation of the lower pectoralis major with regard to the angle of bench press, while the upper pectoral portion is unchanged.

fulltext:

http://www.edulife.com.br/dados/artigos/educacao%20fisica/muscula%C3%A7%C3%A3o%20e%20condicionamento%20fisico/eletromiografia%20do%20peitoral.pdf

and :

Effects of Variations of the Bench Press Exercise on the EMG Activity of Five Shoulder Muscles

This experiment investigated the effects of varying bench inclination and hand spacing on the EMG activity of five muscles acting at the shoulder joint. Six male weight trainers performed presses under four conditions of trunk inclination and two of hand spacing at 80% of their predetermined max. Preamplified surface EMG electrodes were placed over the five muscles in question. The EMG signals during the 2-sec lift indicated some significant effects of trunk inclination and hand spacing. The sternocostal head of the pectoralis major was more active during the press from a horizontal bench than from a decline bench. Also, the clavicular head of the pectoralis major was no more active during the incline bench press than during the horizontal one, but it was less active during the decline bench press. The clavicular head of the pectoralis major was more active with a narrow hand spacing. Anterior deltoid activity tended to increase as trunk inclination increased. The long head of the triceps brachii was more active during the decline and flat bench presses than the other two conditions, and was also more active with a narrow hand spacing. Latissimus dorsi exhibited low activity in all conditions.







also more studies were done by tudor o bompa for his book serious strength training - which i own:

Electromyographical (EMG) Research is an essential research tool allowing physiologists to determine the role of muscles during specific movements. EMG is a scientific method of measuring the level of excitation. This is done by placing electrodes over your body and recording the level of muscle activity induced by an exercise. A study was conducted to find which exercises cause the greatest amount of activity within each muscle group and, as a consequence, determine which exercises will produce the greatest gains in mass and strength. This study was conducted by Tudor O. Bompa, PhD & Lorenzo J. Cornacchia. Both men and women were used in the sudy and all subjects had at least two years experience with resistance training.

Here are the results of that study:
(100% would signify maximum muscle fiber stimulation)

Pectoralis Major
Decline dumbbell bench press ----------------93%
Decline bench press, Olympic bar(OB)---------89
Push-ups between benches --------------------88
Flat dumbbell bench press -------------------87
Flat bench press (OB) -----------------------85
Flat dumbbell flyes --------------------------84

Pectoralis Minor
Incline dumbbell bench press ----------------91%
Incline bench press (OB) --------------------85
Incline dumbbell flyes -----------------------83
Incline bench press (smith machine) ---------81

Medial Deltoids
Incline dumbbell (db) side laterals ----- 66%
Standing db side laterals -------63
Seated db side laterals -----62
Cable side laterals -----47

Posterior Deltoids
Standing db bent laterals ----- 85%
Seated db bent laterals -----83
Standing cable bent laterals -----77

Anterior Deltoids
Seated front db press -----79%
Standing front db raises -----73
Seated front barbell press -----61

Biceps brachii (long head)
Preacher curls (Ob) -------------------- 90%
Incline seated Db curls (alternate) ------ 88
Standing biceps curls (Ob/narrow grip)--- 86
Standing Db curls (alternate) ----------- 84
Concentration Db curls ------------------ 80
Standing curls (Ob/wide grip)------------ 63
Standing E-Z curls (wide grip) ----------- 61

Triceps brachii (outer head)
Decline extensions (Ob) ------------------ 92%
Triceps pressdowns (angled bar) ----------- 90
Dips with a bench --------------------------87
One-arm cable extensions (reverse grip) - 85
Overhead rope extensions ------------------ 85
Seated one-arm Db extensions (neutral grip)- 82
Close-grip bench press (Ob) --------------- 72

Latissimus dorsi (back)
Bent-over Bb rows ---------------------------93%
One-arm Db rows -----------------------------91
T-bar rows ----------------------------------89
Lat pulldowns to the front ------------------86
Seated pulley rows --------------------------83

Rectus femoris (quads)
Safety squats (90 degree angle, shoulder width stance) ----88%
seated leg extensions (toes straight) -------86
Hack squats (90 degree angle, shoulder width stance) ----78
Leg press (110 degree angle) ----------------76
Smith machine (90 degree angle, shoulder width stance) ----60

Biceps femoris (hamsring)
Standing leg curls --------------------------82%
Lying leg curls -----------------------------71
Seated leg curls ----------------------------58
Modified hamstring deads --------------------56

Semitendinosus (inner hamstring)
Seated leg curls ----------------------------88
Standing leg curls --------------------------79
Lying leg curls -----------------------------70
Modified hamstring deads --------------------63

Gastrocnemius (calf muscle)
Donkey raises -------------------------------80
Standing one-leg raises ---------------------79
Standing two-leg raises ---------------------68
Seated raises -------------------------------61

the book 'target bodybuilding' by per a tesch also has lots of scans done using MRI that proves that we can work/develop specific parts of the muscle, i.e. outer thigh, inner thigh, specific head of tri's, etc by changing the angle or exercise.

these MRI tests also agree/confirm bompa's and others aboves findings.

Awesoem, read through it real quick...even though declines recruit the most muscle fibers......does that mean they are best for building a bber thick chest? As the last line there indicates, if you can work/develop specific areas then using decline presses on a consistant basis would make the lower area of the pec grow and create boobs, right?

[chaos]

BTW did inclines, then declines today......nice little pump.

[jpm101]

Fat P offers an informative article about EMG's and their influence on muscle action/reaction.We thank him for that. But all this may just give us a basic starting point to the true response of a muscle group to certain movements. Not all humans muscular structures/bone placement/leverage will follow the same exercise pattern with the same results. EMG's are nothing new and have been around for many years. They give a general indication of a muscle fiber/cell stress at the time of the exercise..

That's why I agree with Montague that all exercises are not created equal. And that lifting (BB'ing, PL'ing, etc) are truly a very individualistic undertaking. Studies with ERG's or MRI/NMRI can be most helpful, of course, but fail to tell the total outcome  of exercise adapting or exercise science. I wonder if these performance test were used with light, moderate or heavy weight. That can make a lot of difference when calling upon other muscle groups around the main working one when using max resistance for example. Or if a muscle was worked to exhaustion.

Doing Declines only may give some guy's total chest, delt and triceps development. A perfect blend. Some may only receive better triceps and front delts. Others lower pecs and front delts, etc, etc, etc..  Some may get exceptional total results from doing inclines only. Or regular flat benches for that matter. All may depends of a persons bone structure, muscle inserts and other factors of how one responds to any exercise. There are only bench dips listed. Wonder what results regular dips would rate? Good Luck.

[Fatpanda]

Awesoem, read through it real quick...even though declines recruit the most muscle fibers......does that mean they are best for building a bber thick chest? As the last line there indicates, if you can work/develop specific areas then using decline presses on a consistant basis would make the lower area of the pec grow and create boobs, right?

well basically the decline works the entire pec, so its probably just generics/general pec mass that will determine if you would get the boob effect.

however there is certainly a top part of the pec ( pec minor, ) and also the front delts that stretch across the top of the chest that are activated by inclines - so for balance you need both imo.

theoretically if you only did declines, with no front delt work of any kind and no inclines then you would probably have a more pronounced boob effect.

[chaos]

well basically the decline works the entire pec, so its probably just generics/general pec mass that will determine if you would get the boob effect.

however there is certainly a top part of the pec ( pec minor, ) and also the front delts that stretch across the top of the chest that are activated by inclines - so for balance you need both imo.

theoretically if you only did declines, with no front delt work of any kind and no inclines then you would probably have a more pronounced boob effect.

I dunno, the way the muscle is attached to the sternum (in a fan like shape)  it would seem unlikely to me that the muscle would be stimulated in the middle portion of the chest as much as the lower portion during declines, since the fibers going from the armpit to the center of the sternum are going to be less involved in pushing the weight up in a decline position than they would be in a flat bench.

[tbombz]

I dunno, the way the muscle is attached to the sternum (in a fan like shape)  it would seem unlikely to me that the muscle would be stimulated in the middle portion of the chest as much as the lower portion during declines, since the fibers going from the armpit to the center of the sternum are going to be less involved in pushing the weight up in a decline position than they would be in a flat bench.

in one of those studies he posted it showed that the upper chest isnt activated any more during incline press than it is activated during decline press, the only difference was more lower chest activation during the decline press. so based on that study, the decline press activates every section of the chest (upper middle and lower) just as good as any other angle of press, and hits the lower chest even better than any of the other angles can.

of course i do feel more upper chest activation during inclines, and i think panda has a different study in that same post that showed the pectoralis minor , which would be the upper chest,  was hit best by incline dumbells. 


personal experience, declines hit the lower chest.. both inner and outer.. very well. they do not hit the center middle of the chest and center upper chest as well as i would like. one incline or some kind of other movement for chest to hit this area(upper/middle inner) seems necessary.

[chaos]

of course i do feel more upper chest activation during inclines, and i think panda has a different study in that same post that showed the pectoralis minor , which would be the upper chest,  was hit best by incline dumbells. 

This is my point, regardless of what some EMG study says, reality is that the chest muscle and the way it attaches to the sternum cannot be completely worked with one exercise, hence the need for flat/incline presses.

I'm going to do the incline/decline workout for a few weeks, see if I notice a difference physically and also test myself on flat bench and see what kind of consequences that type of workout brings for that movement.