OMG!!! History Channel shows Antrax Attacks were inside job.

[Straw Man]

maybe a person with access took it but didn't realize just how traceable it was or maybe they simply didn't care and figured they'd just cover it up later.   Maybe it was just a necessity.  They needed a weapons grade source and this was the only one they could get access to so they figured they deal with the fallout later.

I know, lot's of maybes.

[bebop396]

Its simple..if I'm an American agent...and I'm going to use Anthrax...I'm not going to use Anthrax that can be tied to America. If this wasa true inside job...then I'd use stuff I could get from a major University or research lab..not something that has USAMRID stamped all over it. I have no doubt that somebody got this stuff from a weapons lab..or its possible. They were talking about this a week or so after the attacks. Some guy who had dissappeared who had an ax to grind.

You are assuming American agents are smart....

[OzmO]

maybe a person with access took it but didn't realize just how traceable it was or maybe they simply didn't care and figured they'd just cover it up later.   Maybe it was just a necessity.  They needed a weapons grade source and this was the only one they could get access to so they figured they deal with the fallout later.

I know, lot's of maybes.

That's too sloppy.  We are not "secret agents" and we can figure that out.  Besides, the word anthrax is enough to create a scare.  The person that sent this stuff out wanted to kill people.

[Straw Man]

That's too sloppy.  We are not "secret agents" and we can figure that out.  Besides, the word anthrax is enough to create a scare.  The person that sent this stuff out wanted to kill people.

exactly and that means he/she/they needed a weaponized version and if the choices were few then they may have had no alternative other than the take a version which could potentially be traced (btw - as bebop396 pointed out we can't assume in hindsight that they were even smart enough to know this)

It seems the source has been pretty reliably traced but we just don't know:  How, Who, or Why

[OzmO]

exactly and that means he/she/they needed a weaponized version and if the choices were few then they may have had no alternative other than the take a version which could potentially be traced (btw - as bebop396 pointed out we can't assume in hindsight that they were even smart enough to know this)

It seems the source has been pretty reliably traced but we just don't know:  How, Who, or Why

It's in all likely hood probably not as complex as we'd think it might be in that this is a deliberate act by the US government or from people in the administration to manipulate congress and public opinion by creating a anthrax scare using anthrax trace-able back to government sources.  That's like leaving your cell phone in a bank vault after you robbed it. 

to pull off what might be suspected here would take some thought and planning.  And in that planning the source of the anthrax and it's trace-ablity would come into question.  Even the most moronic of criminals would think of that and we are talking about successful people in this kind of work, not dumb rank rookies. 

 But like i said, based on what we have now, it doesn't seems like a big conspiracy, but then again, more info might surface.

[OzmO]

the bush administration seems so trustable. 

Is that in response to what i wrote or are you making a general statement?

[OzmO]

a little of both. 

what do trust in, however, is that the people who would have the power and ability to pull something like that off would be smart enough not to send trace-able anthrax.

But then again maybe it's easier to obtain than we realize. 

[Straw Man]

what do trust in, however, is that the people who would have the power and ability to pull something like that off would be smart enough not to send trace-able anthrax.
But then again maybe it's easier to obtain than we realize. 

maybe those same people just assumed that they could/would control any investigation and would prevent anyone from getting to the source.  This could include intimidation and murder.   Remember this was long before Bush Admin had even agreed to an investigation of the events of 9-11.   I think it very safe to assume that whoever perpetrated this was probably assuming that there would never be a serious investigation.  They propbably already had their whitewash and patsy set up long ahead of time.

Assuming that they wouldn't be so dumb....therefore it just can't be still leaves the following facts to be dealt with:

·      All the contaminated letters contained the Ames strain of anthrax, the DNA of which is traced to the original batch preserved in a university lab in Ames, Iowa. This strain was “weaponized” in Utah into a potent powder with an elaborate secret technique developed at Fort Detrick, Md.[1]

·      The FBI failed to interview Ft. Detrick anthrax experts for two months into their investigation, doing it only after the experts complained to the press of gross incompetence on the part of the FBI.

·      The FBI overruled local homicide detectives who think that an anthrax expert was murdered, possibly because he knew too much.
 

[OzmO]

·      The FBI failed to interview Ft. Detrick anthrax experts for two months into their investigation, doing it only after the experts complained to the press of gross incompetence on the part of the FBI.

 

That would have been thought out.  The same people you say assumed they would control an investigation wouldn't leave that to chance.  If someone really had a way of preventing an investigation they would have done so.  Either way, you don't bank on "may-be's" if you intent to cover something up.  they would have known full well there would be an investigation and have prepared for it well in advance.   Pointing out it took them 2 months only conveniently fits into a theory but does not encompass the entire spectrum of pulling something like this off.

The FBI overruled local homicide detectives who think that an anthrax expert was murdered, possibly because he knew too much.
 

This is speculative becuase we are not privy to the facts of the case.  That being an issue, again it fits into the theory, but without knowing ALL the reasons why the FBI ruled it out we only have speculation.  Do we have the actual report from the homicide detectives?  What language did they use in their report?  I would reserve judgment on what the homocide detectives said until i saw the actual police report they filled and then i'd liek to see the report the FBI filled and the evidence they were both looking at. 

Besides i think you may connecting the "9/11 inside job theory" with this as being something they assumed they could get away with.

Don't get me wrong.  What you've posted is incomplete.  I'm not trying to shoot it down, i'm just pointing out that what you've posted is not very concrete.  The best way to find this out for sure is to have some of the things i talked about to review like the actual police reports.

[Straw Man]

That would have been thought out.  The same people you say assumed they would control an investigation wouldn't leave that to chance.  If someone really had a way of preventing an investigation they would have done so.  Either way, you don't bank on "may-be's" if you intent to cover something up.  they would have known full well there would be an investigation and have prepared for it well in advance.   Pointing out it took them 2 months only conveniently fits into a theory but does not encompass the entire spectrum of pulling something like this off.

This is speculative becuase we are not privy to the facts of the case.  That being an issue, again it fits into the theory, but without knowing ALL the reasons why the FBI ruled it out we only have speculation.  Do we have the actual report from the homicide detectives?  What language did they use in their report?  I would reserve judgment on what the homocide detectives said until i saw the actual police report they filled and then i'd liek to see the report the FBI filled and the evidence they were both looking at. 

Besides i think you may connecting the "9/11 inside job theory" with this as being something they assumed they could get away with.

Don't get me wrong.  What you've posted is incomplete.  I'm not trying to shoot it down, i'm just pointing out that what you've posted is not very concrete.  The best way to find this out for sure is to have some of the things i talked about to review like the actual police reports.

Let's face it - we're both making a lot of assumptions. What I've posted most certainly is incomplete but that's by necessity.   To clarify, I'm not drawing any conclusions about inside job or not and didn't mean to suggest that I was.  I'm just saying that we can't generously assume that the perpetrators would have been either smart or fool proof in their planning.

They didn't have to prevent an investigation but they could perhaps have been betting that they could control and make it a whitewash or a dead end.

[OzmO]

Let's face it - we're both making a lot of assumptions. What I've posted most certainly is incomplete but that's by necessity.   To clarify, I'm not drawing any conclusions about inside job or not and didn't mean to suggest that I was.  I'm just saying that we can't generously assume that the perpetrators would have been either smart or fool proof in their planning.

They didn't have to prevent an investigation but they could perhaps have been betting that they could control and make it a whitewash or a dead end.

You can never have a plan that's 100% fool proof but i think there are some things such as the points i brought up that are a given, but even then i see what you are saying and it is a possibility.

I'd really like to read the police report though.

[Hugo Chavez]

Just one question.  With the main bulk of the major corporate media in their back pocket, why would they give a crap if it was a traceable strain.  It took this many years for the History Channel to delve in.  It's just like the Downing Street Memos.  This was a huge story that showed a level of proof that the Bush admin intended on manipulating the intelligence around a case for war.  By any standards of an working free media, this should have been front page.  Who covered this in the mainstream media here?  NOBODY!!!  Stop and think about this, the FBI knew of the strain tracking back to one of our labs and they were not interested in looking into the personell files?  Not until 4 months after they knew?  Oh I'm sure you just say well they were busy but that won't cut it, this was at that time a center of the "terrorist fear" rocking America.  Jesus, I couldn't even send regular mail to clients who were refusing to receive stuff from the post office.  Had to fed ex a bunch of shit.  This was probably happening all over.  It was on the news constant.  They were telling us this was Al Qaeda, well!!!  How could that have not been a top priority Even their main suspect they said they were not interested, they didn't consider him and it was not until private investigators gathered information and started making it public that they pressured the FBI to even give a shit one way or another.  Now that's just fucking odd as hell.  Looks more like they didn't want to touch that and stayed away until private investigators and public scrutiny threatened to make them look like they intended on staying away.

[OzmO]

Just one question.  With the main bulk of the major corporate media in their back pocket, why would they give a crap if it was a traceable strain.  It took this many years for the History Channel to delve in.  It's just like the Downing Street Memos.  This was a huge story that showed a level of proof that the Bush admin intended on manipulating the intelligence around a case for war.  By any standards of an working free media, this should have been front page.  Who covered this in the mainstream media here?  NOBODY!!!  Stop and think about this, the FBI knew of the strain tracking back to one of our labs and they were not interested in looking into the personell files?  Not until 4 months after they knew?  Oh I'm sure you just say well they were busy but that won't cut it, this was at that time a center of the "terrorist fear" rocking America.  Jesus, I couldn't even send regular mail to clients who were refusing to receive stuff from the post office.  Had to fed ex a bunch of shit.  This was probably happening all over.  It was on the news constant.  They were telling us this was Al Qaeda, well!!!  How could that have not been a top priority Even their main suspect they said they were not interested, they didn't consider him and it was not until private investigators gathered information and started making it public that they pressured the FBI to even give a shit one way or another.  Now that's just fucking odd as hell.  Looks more like they didn't want to touch that and stayed away until private investigators and public scrutiny threatened to make them look like they intended on staying away.

They would give a crap becuase it's a tangible link to their crime that would have been easily avoided by using a different strain that wasn't trace-able back to them.

I'm not saying it isn't possible but i am saying based on the information on this thread that's is very unlikely.   I would like to see a summary of the investigation including the police reports.   It would shed some light and answer many of the unanswered question that have been brought up here.  It might or might not show why certain thing that look suspicious where done the way they were done. 

[Hugo Chavez]

They would give a crap becuase it's a tangible link to their crime that would have been easily avoided by using a different strain that wasn't trace-able back to them.

I'm not saying it isn't possible but i am saying based on the information on this post that's is very unlikely.   I would like to see a summary of the investigation including the police reports.   It would shed some light and answer many of the unanswered question that have been brought up here.  It might or might not show why certain thing that look suspicious where done the way they were done. 

one of the things in the history channel show they went over, there was a middle-eastern guy from the lab that felt he was being set up to be a patsy so perhaps the plan was to trace it to him all along and fell apart when he fell apart as a viable patsy.  The FBI brough him in BEFORE the anthrax letters were recieved and tired to accuse him of being a bio terrorist.  The FBI recieved an anonymous letter saying he was a threat.  the letter said he hated America and was training his sons to be bio terrorists.  Now this is what's interesting, the letter knew his entire background including the security clearance, training and work done for USAMRIID.  So... just before the anthrax letters are delivered, the FBI recieves a letter pointing them to a middle eastern man working at the facility that the antrax is going to end up being tracked to.  wow.  the postmark on the letter accusing him was made just days before the anthrax letters were mailed.  whoever the real attacker was, they may have banked on setting him up as a patsy and they had to be in a position of knowing his security clearance, training and work done at the lab.

also, the letter sent to the FBI said that he was a religious fanatic and the anthrax letters said, "Allah is Great"
Then the letter sent to the FBI said he hated America and the anthrax letter said, "death to America"

so perhaps they didn't care and counted on it being tracked to USAMRIID.

[OzmO]

one of the things in the history channel show they went over, there was a middle-eastern guy from the lab that felt he was being set up to be a patsy so perhaps the plan was to trace it to him all along and fell apart when he fell apart as a viable patsy.  The FBI brough him in BEFORE the anthrax letters were recieved and tired to accuse him of being a bio terrorist.  The FBI recieved an anonymous letter saying he was a threat.  the letter said he hated America and was training his sons to be bio terrorists.  Now this is what's interesting, the letter knew his entire background including the security clearance, training and work done for USAMRIID.  So... just before the anthrax letters are delivered, the FBI recieves a letter pointing them to a middle eastern man working at the facility that the antrax is going to end up being tracked to.  wow.  the postmark on the letter accusing him was made just days before the anthrax letters were mailed.  whoever the real attacker was, they may have banked on setting him up as a patsy and they had to be in a position of knowing his security clearance, training and work done at the lab.

also, the letter sent to the FBI said that he was a religious fanatic and the anthrax letters said, "Allah is Great"
Then the letter sent to the FBI said he hated America and the anthrax letter said, "death to America"

so perhaps they didn't care and counted on it being tracked to USAMRIID.

If what you say is correct it's very possible and makes sense even though sending letters early is a bit weird and sloppy.   I wonder if anyone has done some research on this and published it. 

[Hugo Chavez]

If what you say is correct it's very possible and makes sense even though sending letters early is a bit weird and sloppy.   I wonder if anyone has done some research on this and published it. 

This is fantastic.  I just found this site from UCLA Department of Epidemiology  some really great info here.

http://www.ph.ucla.edu/epi/bioter/compilationofanthraxevidence.html

All the available evidence indicates that the source of the mailed anthrax, or the information and materials to make it, is a US government program.

[OzmO]

This is fantastic.  I just found this site from UCLA Department of Epidemiology  some really great info here.

http://www.ph.ucla.edu/epi/bioter/compilationofanthraxevidence.html

#

Conclusions: A recent report by the Congressional GAO, as well as many recent statements by military and non-governmental experts in the BW field, holds that terrorists are unlikely to be able to mount a major biological attack without substantial assistance from a government sponsor. The recent anthrax attack was a minor one but nonetheless we now see that it was perpetrated with the unwitting assistance of a sophisticated government program. It is reassuring to know that it was not perpetrated by a lone terrorist without state support.

    *

      It is not reassuring, however, to discover that a secret US program may have been the source of that support, and that security is so dangerously lax in military or defense contractor laboratories. US government insistence on pursuing and maintaining the secrecy of elaborate biological threat assessment activities is undermining the prohibitions of the Biological Weapons Convention and encouraging biological weapons proliferation in other countries, which in turn may support bioterrorist attacks on the American public.



So, it was an inside job, but not a deliberate one involving a conspiracy with the US government.   Looks like we have a cover up of lax security here and some hanky panky to continue bio weapons manufacturing and research in the face of the Biological Weapons Convention.

[Hugo Chavez]

#

Conclusions: A recent report by the Congressional GAO, as well as many recent statements by military and non-governmental experts in the BW field, holds that terrorists are unlikely to be able to mount a major biological attack without substantial assistance from a government sponsor. The recent anthrax attack was a minor one but nonetheless we now see that it was perpetrated with the unwitting assistance of a sophisticated government program. It is reassuring to know that it was not perpetrated by a lone terrorist without state support.

    *

      It is not reassuring, however, to discover that a secret US program may have been the source of that support, and that security is so dangerously lax in military or defense contractor laboratories. US government insistence on pursuing and maintaining the secrecy of elaborate biological threat assessment activities is undermining the prohibitions of the Biological Weapons Convention and encouraging biological weapons proliferation in other countries, which in turn may support bioterrorist attacks on the American public.



So, it was an inside job, but not a deliberate one involving a conspiracy with the US government.   Looks like we have a cover up of lax security here and some hanky panky to continue bio weapons manufacturing and research in the face of the Biological Weapons Convention.

well yea, of course.  as I've said through the thread, you just don't have the info to say for sure it was a larger conspiracy so all speculation on a larger conspiracy is just speculation.  Possibly in the speculation process something might get figured out which is about all I can hope for.  But you can't take these conclusions and rule a larger conspiracy out either.  I'm staying open on this.  It could still be a larger conspiracy.  All this says above is that it wasn't hard to commit due to lax security.  On the UCLA site it also makes an interesting note on the timing suggesting that the person could have had prior knowledge of 9/11  It does put him putting this together in a quick fashion.  There are really a lot of suspicious aspects to all of it.  There are only small group of individuals with the knowledge required to weoponize the antrax in the Dashle letter, why would they put off investigating a small handful of people?  odd.

[OzmO]

well yea, of course.  as I've said through the thread, you just don't have the info to say for sure it was a larger conspiracy so all speculation on a larger conspiracy is just speculation.  Possibly in the speculation process something might get figured out which is about all I can hope for.  But you can't take these conclusions and rule a larger conspiracy out either.  I'm staying open on this.  It could still be a larger conspiracy.  All this says above is that it wasn't hard to commit due to lax security.  On the UCLA site it also makes an interesting note on the timing suggesting that the person could have had prior knowledge of 9/11  It does put him putting this together in a quick fashion.  There are really a lot of suspicious aspects to all of it.  There are only small group of individuals with the knowledge required to weoponize the antrax in the Dashle letter, why would they put off investigating a small handful of people?  odd.

Yes, I agree.

[MB_722]

might be a repost

[Hugo Chavez]

dang I have a good memory

[MB_722]

haha

WTH?  I clicked the link and then thought you posted this today and how did I miss it. then I saw the year.
what are the odds on posting it on the same day a year later.


LMAO

[Hugo Chavez]

haha

WTH?  I clicked the link and then thought you posted this today and how did I miss it.
what are the odds on posting it on the same day a year later.


LMAO

holy shit... I didn't see it was the same day, that's wacked! lol.  There is a higher calling here.  It's a sign

[MB_722]

 


I had a feeling it was a repost, I did a search, the search function didn't work

[240 is Back]

BTW  John McCain is your next pres, Like it or not. 

Sweet!   By 2012, he'll certainly be ready.