Author Topic: Transcript: Khalid Sheikh Mohammed confesses 9/11 role  (Read 15481 times)

Dos Equis

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Re: Transcript: Khalid Sheikh Mohammed confesses 9/11 role
« Reply #75 on: March 16, 2007, 08:30:52 AM »
THe Geneva Convention applies to every man on earth.
BUSH decided that terrorists don't get it anymore.
No other nation, nor the UN, agrees with this.
But Bush said anyone picked up anywhere in the world, that he labels a terrorist, may be stripped of geneva.


So our rift would be this - does Bush have the right to defy geneva?  If you believe so, there's no arguing with you.

Actually, the "rift" is twofold:

1.  Your contention that Mohammed didn't receive due process.  I indicated basic due process is notice and an opportunity to be heard, and that it sounds like Mohammed received basic due process. 

2.  The specific provisions of the Geneva Convention that indicates it "applies to every man on earth."  Which specific provision of the Geneva Convention says this? 

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Re: Transcript: Khalid Sheikh Mohammed confesses 9/11 role
« Reply #76 on: March 16, 2007, 08:54:10 AM »
LOL!  "due process".  He was *heard* by some unknown group, his testimony was coerced, and his response was translated and censored.   I hope one day they don't pull you outta the lib arts program at your cozy hawaii office and give you the same 'due process'.  "Being heard" by a person beating you and translating your confession, bravo.

Article 4 of third convention.




OzmO

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Re: Transcript: Khalid Sheikh Mohammed confesses 9/11 role
« Reply #77 on: March 16, 2007, 08:55:03 AM »
did he have a judge a lawyer and a trial?

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Re: Transcript: Khalid Sheikh Mohammed confesses 9/11 role
« Reply #78 on: March 16, 2007, 09:02:07 AM »
did he have a judge a lawyer and a trial?

No.

He had a 'hearing'.  It was closed to media or any humanitarian org.  He said he was tortured for a long time.  He then signed a translated copy of his coerced confession, and it was released to the media after a great deal of censoring.

I guess now we have to ask - would a white house who would do something as major as lie about WMD to start a 5+ year global war - even blink when it came to falsifying a terrorist's confession?

Frankly, I don't give them much credibility.  Keeping the whole thing secret, then trusting the piece of paper with the laundry list confession of every unsolved crime in 15 years... well, it stinks.

Dos Equis

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Re: Transcript: Khalid Sheikh Mohammed confesses 9/11 role
« Reply #79 on: March 16, 2007, 09:09:15 AM »
LOL.  When you don't have the facts, just make them up.  LOL.  And where is the proof that Mohammed was tortured?   ::)

Here is Article 4 of the Geneva Convention.  You can make an argument that terrorists fall within this definition.  I don't think they do.  I doubt Article 4 "applies to every man on earth."     

Article 4

A. Prisoners of war, in the sense of the present Convention, are persons belonging to one of the following categories, who have fallen into the power of the enemy:

1. Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict as well as members of militias or volunteer corps forming part of such armed forces.

2. Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfil the following conditions:

(a) That of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;

(b) That of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance;

(c) That of carrying arms openly;

(d) That of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.

3. Members of regular armed forces who profess allegiance to a government or an authority not recognized by the Detaining Power.

http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/91.htm

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Re: Transcript: Khalid Sheikh Mohammed confesses 9/11 role
« Reply #80 on: March 16, 2007, 10:49:44 AM »
What would we consider KSM?

a POW?
An accused criminal?

what exactly?

tu_holmes

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Re: Transcript: Khalid Sheikh Mohammed confesses 9/11 role
« Reply #81 on: March 16, 2007, 11:01:26 AM »
LOL.  When you don't have the facts, just make them up.  LOL.  And where is the proof that Mohammed was tortured?   ::)

Here is Article 4 of the Geneva Convention.  You can make an argument that terrorists falls within this definition.  I don't think they do.  I doubt Article 4 "applies to every man on earth."     

Article 4

A. Prisoners of war, in the sense of the present Convention, are persons belonging to one of the following categories, who have fallen into the power of the enemy:

1. Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict as well as members of militias or volunteer corps forming part of such armed forces.

2. Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfil the following conditions:

(a) That of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;

(b) That of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance;

(c) That of carrying arms openly;

(d) That of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.

3. Members of regular armed forces who profess allegiance to a government or an authority not recognized by the Detaining Power.

http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/91.htm

What part do they not fall under?

I can agree that perhaps they do not fall under item 2, but that doesn't mean that "coercing" confessions from people is right... We're supposed to be BETTER than they are... apparently we are not.

You say we don't know he was tortured or coerced, but hell, we don't know if he even said any of this shit... It could all be a lie.

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Re: Transcript: Khalid Sheikh Mohammed confesses 9/11 role
« Reply #82 on: March 16, 2007, 11:28:27 AM »
it's funny - we believe everything he says about the 31 terror attacks/plots.

but we don't believe what he said about being tortured.


OzmO

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Re: Transcript: Khalid Sheikh Mohammed confesses 9/11 role
« Reply #83 on: March 16, 2007, 11:32:58 AM »
it's funny - we believe everything he says about the 31 terror attacks/plots.

but we don't believe what he said about being tortured.



If that doesn't smell like BS to some people they will keep eating feces all their lives and resign themselves to liking it.

Dos Equis

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Re: Transcript: Khalid Sheikh Mohammed confesses 9/11 role
« Reply #84 on: March 16, 2007, 11:56:45 AM »
What would we consider KSM?

a POW?
An accused criminal?

what exactly?

A terrorist. 

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Re: Transcript: Khalid Sheikh Mohammed confesses 9/11 role
« Reply #85 on: March 16, 2007, 11:58:41 AM »
What part do they not fall under?

I can agree that perhaps they do not fall under item 2, but that doesn't mean that "coercing" confessions from people is right... We're supposed to be BETTER than they are... apparently we are not.

You say we don't know he was tortured or coerced, but hell, we don't know if he even said any of this shit... It could all be a lie.

I don't think terrorists fall under any part of Article 4. 

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Re: Transcript: Khalid Sheikh Mohammed confesses 9/11 role
« Reply #86 on: March 16, 2007, 11:59:04 AM »
i dont find this information too reliable; im sure hes a bad man whos done bad things, but it has been proven time and time again that a man whose been imprisoned and tortured for years will typically 'confess' to whatever crimes you want him to.

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Re: Transcript: Khalid Sheikh Mohammed confesses 9/11 role
« Reply #87 on: March 16, 2007, 12:04:43 PM »
I don't think terrorists fall under any part of Article 4. 

I would disagree... but that's just me.

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Re: Transcript: Khalid Sheikh Mohammed confesses 9/11 role
« Reply #88 on: March 16, 2007, 12:05:40 PM »
A terrorist. 

so a terrorist are neither a criminal or a POW?  And therefore are not afforded certain rights of due process such as a public trial and a legal representation?

So if you are ever labeled a terrorist you have no way to prove you innocence fairly?

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Re: Transcript: Khalid Sheikh Mohammed confesses 9/11 role
« Reply #89 on: March 16, 2007, 12:08:05 PM »
so a terrorist are neither a criminal or a POW?  And therefore are not afforded certain rights of due process such as a public trial and a legal representation?

So if you are ever labeled a terrorist you have no way to prove you innocence fairly?


What about Jose Padilla... a US citizen... because he's a "terrorist", he gets no due process?

That's a great way to make a police state... Welcome to the SS.

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Re: Transcript: Khalid Sheikh Mohammed confesses 9/11 role
« Reply #90 on: March 16, 2007, 12:13:01 PM »
so a terrorist are neither a criminal or a POW?  And therefore are not afforded certain rights of due process such as a public trial and a legal representation?

So if you are ever labeled a terrorist you have no way to prove you innocence fairly?


We're talking about the Geneva Convention.  There is a specific definition of a POW under the Geneva Convention and I don't think a terrorist falls under that definition.

This terrorist apparently did get basic due process.  But I don't believe a terrorist is entitled to all the rights afforded American citizens. 

If I'm ever labeled a "terrorist" I will be prosecuted in state or federal court, because I'm an American citizen.  Remember the "American Taliban"?  Forget his name.  Timothy McVeigh?  The Unabomber?  Those are all American terrorists.  They all got their due process. 

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Re: Transcript: Khalid Sheikh Mohammed confesses 9/11 role
« Reply #91 on: March 16, 2007, 12:20:13 PM »
We're talking about the Geneva Convention.  There is a specific definition of a POW under the Geneva Convention and I don't think a terrorist falls under that definition.

This terrorist apparently did get basic due process.  But I don't believe a terrorist is entitled to all the rights afforded American citizens. 

If I'm ever labeled a "terrorist" I will be prosecuted in state or federal court, because I'm an American citizen.  Remember the "American Taliban"?  Forget his name.  Timothy McVeigh?  The Unabomber?  Those are all American terrorists.  They all got their due process. 


well here's a couple definitions of due process:

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source
due process of law
–noun
the regular administration of the law, according to which no citizen may be denied his or her legal rights and all laws must conform to fundamental, accepted legal principles, as the right of the accused to confront his or her accusers.
Also called due process, due course of law.

[Origin: 1885–90]
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.
American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source
due process 
n.   An established course for judicial proceedings or other governmental activities designed to safeguard the legal rights of the individual.

WordNet - Cite This Source
due process

noun
(law) the administration of justice according to established rules and principles; based on the principle that a person cannot be deprived of life or liberty or property without appropriate legal procedures and safeguards


Now what was your idea of basic due process again?

Did KSM get these?

If you are non-citizen of the USA and are labeled a terrorist do you have any rights that involved legal representation? 

What ever happened to "that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights"?

Does "all men" just mean American citizens?





Dos Equis

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Re: Transcript: Khalid Sheikh Mohammed confesses 9/11 role
« Reply #92 on: March 16, 2007, 01:01:56 PM »
well here's a couple definitions of due process:

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source
due process of law
–noun
the regular administration of the law, according to which no citizen may be denied his or her legal rights and all laws must conform to fundamental, accepted legal principles, as the right of the accused to confront his or her accusers.
Also called due process, due course of law.

[Origin: 1885–90]
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.
American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source
due process 
n.   An established course for judicial proceedings or other governmental activities designed to safeguard the legal rights of the individual.

WordNet - Cite This Source
due process

noun
(law) the administration of justice according to established rules and principles; based on the principle that a person cannot be deprived of life or liberty or property without appropriate legal procedures and safeguards


Now what was your idea of basic due process again?

Did KSM get these?

If you are non-citizen of the USA and are labeled a terrorist do you have any rights that involved legal representation? 

What ever happened to "that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights"?

Does "all men" just mean American citizens?






You're not going to start asking me the same questions over and over again are you?  We've got enough of those around here.   :)  I said basic due process includes notice and an opportunity to be heard.  As I've said about three times now, it appears as though this terrorist got basic due process.  Did he get all of the rights afforded American citizens?  I sure hope not.  He's not a citizen and your first definition specifically mentions a "citizen." 

And under your second definition, did we use judicial proceedings to safeguard the "legal rights" (whatever they are) of this terrorist?  Apparently so.  I don't know the details.  If there was a panel of decision makers and a hearing of any kind, then he got his basic due process rights. 

Feel free to ask me again.  I'll refer you back to prior comments.   :)

OzmO

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Re: Transcript: Khalid Sheikh Mohammed confesses 9/11 role
« Reply #93 on: March 16, 2007, 01:09:33 PM »
You're not going to start asking me the same questions over and over again are you?  We've got enough of those around here.   :)  I said basic due process includes notice and an opportunity to be heard.  As I've said about three times now, it appears as though this terrorist got basic due process.  Did he get all of the rights afforded American citizens?  I sure hope not.  He's not a citizen and your first definition specifically mentions a "citizen." 

And under your second definition, did we use judicial proceedings to safeguard the "legal rights" (whatever they are) of this terrorist?  Apparently so.  I don't know the details.  If there was a panel of decision makers and a hearing of any kind, then he got his basic due process rights. 

Feel free to ask me again.  I'll refer you back to prior comments.   :)

When have i done that?

Plus you don't usually contradict yourself.

My point is this, what you describe as basic due process doesn't fall under under the definition of due process.

Also, we don't if his rights we safe guarded because his trial or hearing or what ever wasn't public.


Dos Equis

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Re: Transcript: Khalid Sheikh Mohammed confesses 9/11 role
« Reply #94 on: March 16, 2007, 01:21:14 PM »
When have i done that?

Plus you don't usually contradict yourself.

My point is this, what you describe as basic due process doesn't fall under under the definition of due process.

Also, we don't if his rights we safe guarded because his trial or hearing or what ever wasn't public.



Here is another definition of due process: 

"due process - A fundamental principle of fairness in all legal matters, both civil and criminal. The conduct of legal proceedings according to established rules and principles for the protection and enforcement of private rights, including notice and the right to a fair hearing before a tribunal with the power to decide the case."

https://www.legalexplorer.com/AM/Template.cfm?Section=Wisconsin_News_Reporters_Legal_Handbook&Template=/CM/ContentDisplay.cfm&ContentID=47140

Entirely consistent with what I called basic due process:  notice and an opportunity to be heard (e.g., a hearing). 

OzmO

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Re: Transcript: Khalid Sheikh Mohammed confesses 9/11 role
« Reply #95 on: March 16, 2007, 01:29:11 PM »
Here is another definition of due process: 

"due process - A fundamental principle of fairness in all legal matters, both civil and criminal. The conduct of legal proceedings according to established rules and principles for the protection and enforcement of private rights, including notice and the right to a fair hearing before a tribunal with the power to decide the case."

https://www.legalexplorer.com/AM/Template.cfm?Section=Wisconsin_News_Reporters_Legal_Handbook&Template=/CM/ContentDisplay.cfm&ContentID=47140

Entirely consistent with what I called basic due process:  notice and an opportunity to be heard (e.g., a hearing). 

but we don't know that do we?

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Re: Transcript: Khalid Sheikh Mohammed confesses 9/11 role
« Reply #96 on: March 16, 2007, 01:30:47 PM »
If I'm ever labeled a "terrorist" I will be prosecuted in state or federal court, because I'm an American citizen.  Remember the "American Taliban"?  Forget his name.  Timothy McVeigh?  The Unabomber?  Those are all American terrorists.  They all got their due process. 

Jose Padilla.  An American citizen. 

He has not received due process.

Explain?

Dos Equis

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Re: Transcript: Khalid Sheikh Mohammed confesses 9/11 role
« Reply #97 on: March 16, 2007, 01:35:00 PM »
but we don't know that do we?

Only if you believe the military is lying.  Honestly, I have not read enough to know precisely what kind of hearing he received, which is why I said at the start of this thread that it appears as though he got his basic due process rights.  I don't know all the facts. 

I'm also not losing any sleep over this terrorist.  I hope he hangs.     

Dos Equis

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Re: Transcript: Khalid Sheikh Mohammed confesses 9/11 role
« Reply #98 on: March 16, 2007, 01:35:26 PM »
Jose Padilla.  An American citizen. 

He has not received due process.

Explain?

 ???  You explain.  You brought it up. 

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Re: Transcript: Khalid Sheikh Mohammed confesses 9/11 role
« Reply #99 on: March 16, 2007, 01:41:22 PM »
???  You explain.  You brought it up. 

padilla is an american.  captured on american soil.  been held 5 years without charges.

He didn't do anything but allegedly plan an attack (and he is a halfwit patsy if there ever was one)

5 year, no charge.  And if it can happen to one man legally, it can happen to 300 million legally.