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Getbig Misc Discussion Boards => Religious Debates & Threads => Topic started by: ToxicAvenger on November 06, 2006, 04:06:12 PM
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The basis of morality amongst religious types is fear of god...
atheists are good because its in their nature to be good...they make their choice to be good without fear of going to hell...
Christians, Jews and Muslims are good because they believe if they r not good they r gonna end up in hell...so it still leaves to beg whether these same folks would still be good if god ws taken out of the equation?
who knows...
all i know is...I'm an atheist...and i still do good without expecting a heaven as reward in the end.
doing good without expecting reward is more noble in my eyes
thankyou :)
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The basis of morality amongst religious types is fear of god...
atheists are good because its in their nature to be good...they make their choice to be good without fear of going to hell...
Christians, Jews and Muslims are good because they believe if they r not good they r gonna end up in hell...so it still leaves to beg whether these same folks would still be good if god ws taken out of the equation?
who knows...
all i know is...I'm an atheist...and i still do good without expecting a heaven as reward in the end.
doing good without expecting reward is more noble in my eyes
thankyou :)
ummmm..... Toxy...... Christianity does not teach that being good earns you heaven for a reward.
In fact it teaches that none are righteous...no, not one.
It teaches that the only thing that can get you into heaven is what Jesus Christ did for you.
That is clearly written in Ephesians 2:8,9:
"FOR YOU ARE SAVED BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH, SO THAT NO ONE CAN BOAST."
And just out of curiosity, have you ever done anything bad? Assuming that you will admit that yes, you have done something bad (just like the rest of us), does that mean you are no longer "good?" What percentage of bad vs good acts and thoughts makes a person "bad" or "good?"
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srry steller but what toxic wrote, s'tru :P
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srry steller but what toxic wrote, s'tru :P
Do you think it's your nature to be good or bad? Or maybe a bit of both?
And if you as an atheist like Toxy said have it in your nature to be good, do you make the choice to be good like Toxy said atheists do? Do you sometimes make the choice to be bad?
doing good without expecting reward is more noble in my eyes
In general I would agree w/this statement but it has nothing to do w/bible-believing Christians expecting to receive heaven as a reward for being good because we know that is an impossibility.
Salvation/heaven is a free gift from God and is impossible to "earn." :)
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without god there is not basis for good/bad
i agree with what toxic wrote in that god believing folks invariably believe in an afterlife or reincarnation which is pendant upon your beahaiour here, hanse their motivation in doing good boils down to self interest
whereas an athiest does it pretty much for the fuck of it :D
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nobody ever did explain what an athiest is
???
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i agree with what toxic wrote in that god believing folks invariably believe in an afterlife or reincarnation which is pendant upon your beahaiour here, hanse their motivation in doing good boils down to self interest
this absolutely may be true for some "religions"
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for which is it not?
just cause jesus unlocked the door doesnt mean youre getting in ;)
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I definately agree with Toxic.
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ummmm..... Toxy...... Christianity does not teach that being good earns you heaven for a reward.
In fact it teaches that none are righteous...no, not one.
It teaches that the only thing that can get you into heaven is what Jesus Christ did for you.
That is clearly written in Ephesians 2:8,9:
"FOR YOU ARE SAVED BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH, SO THAT NO ONE CAN BOAST."
And just out of curiosity, have you ever done anything bad? Assuming that you will admit that yes, you have done something bad (just like the rest of us), does that mean you are no longer "good?" What percentage of bad vs good acts and thoughts makes a person "bad" or "good?"
about 2ish months or so ago...i had a 19 yr old trying to suck my neck at my bar..i walked her home..but didn't go in...
i deserve a fackin standing ovation...
i'm mostly good...
PS...i mostly never get laid cause of it >:(
n oh..Athiest = dont believe in god...i believe in quantum uncertanity as the basis of creation..string theory...
PS the above post...the first one..comes from a wilderian concept...google his essay ..fuck..its either Social of man under socialism or deprufindis..one of em..the basis of this thread is taken from something he said..so i give due credit...
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buy and watch this DVD..
i posted it on this board months ago...i got 1 relpy...now its gone from video google..
so you gotta buy it if you r to watch it
http://www2.wwnorton.com/catalog/fall03/005858.htm
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about 2ish months or so ago...i had a 19 yr old trying to avoid me at my bar..i followed her home..but didn't go in...
i deserve a fackin standing ovation...
i'm mostly good...
PS...i mostly never get laid cause of it >:(
n oh..Athiest = dont believe in god...i believe in quantum uncertanity as the basis of creation..string theory...
PS the above post...the first one..comes from a wilderian concept...google his essay ..f**k..its either Social of man under socialism or deprufindis..one of em..the basis of this thread is taken from something he said..so i give due credit...
fixed
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ha ha ha
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without god there is not basis for good/bad
Can you please explain how this helps your side and not mine? :$ <-----see what I tried to do there ;D
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about 2ish months or so ago...i had a 19 yr old trying to suck my neck at my bar..i walked her home..but didn't go in...
i deserve a fackin standing ovation...
i'm mostly good...
PS...i mostly never get laid cause of it >:(
n oh..Athiest = dont believe in god...i believe in quantum uncertanity as the basis of creation..string theory...
PS the above post...the first one..comes from a wilderian concept...google his essay ..f**k..its either Social of man under socialism or deprufindis..one of em..the basis of this thread is taken from something he said..so i give due credit...
What about the woman in your car? Would these two "acts" negate each other? ???
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Can you please explain how this helps your side and not mine? :$ <-----see what I tried to do there ;D
i think its fairly straight forward that without heaven/hell there can be no morality, what would the point be ?
:devilsmiley:
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i think its fairly straight forward that without heaven/hell there can be no morality, what would the point be ?
:devilsmiley:
wait, are you saying that you do believe in heaven and hell ??? :$
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nope, im saying that good/bad right/wrong are arbitrary and capricious :D
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nope, im saying that good/bad right/wrong are arbitrary and capricious :D
OK Jackie ;D
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actually that one was kramer when hes trying to keep his intern
youre slipping bro :P
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fixed
lmao...
no..i wasm't coked up...
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What about the woman in your car? Would these two "acts" negate each other? ???
the woman in my car wanted me before she got drunk..
the 19 yr old ws piss drunk....had she been sober and wanted me..i'd have gone in...
sex between 2 adults is fine...as long as they agree to it sober...they can get drunk after...
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sex between 2 adults is fine...as long as they agree to it sober...they can get drunk after...
what if one is married?
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what if one is married?
never porked a married chick intentionally..
did that question really neede to be asked stells :-\ ?
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Sorry Toxy. I guess I'm just trying to understand if you decide if someone is considered "good" by them committing more "good" acts than the number of "bad."
So would you think the 2 acts negate each other or does the one not count because you were unaware of the full situation?
Also, each time you break the law (speeding, rolling through a stopsign, using illegal drugs etc), does that negate some of the good things you've done or not?
I do all of the above and I do them so often (except for the drugs part [now :P]) that I KNOW that if they counted against me I'd be considered more bad than good. :-\
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Sorry Toxy. I guess I'm just trying to understand if you decide if someone is considered "good" by them committing more "good" acts than the number of "bad."
So would you think the 2 acts negate each other or does the one not count because you were unaware of the full situation?
I do all of the above and I do them so often (except for the drugs part [now :P]) that I KNOW that if they counted against me I'd be considered more bad than good. :-\
i'll go with what my dad once told me what mohammed said " actions r judged by intentions"
Also, each time you break the law (speeding, rolling through a stopsign, using illegal drugs etc), does that negate some of the good things you've done or not?
i dont consider any little traffic violation as bad...if i'm going 90 mph on an empty highway i'm not really hurting anyone else...so why is that bad?
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The basis of morality amongst religious types is fear of god...
atheists are good because its in their nature to be good...they make their choice to be good without fear of going to hell...
Christians, Jews and Muslims are good because they believe if they r not good they r gonna end up in hell...so it still leaves to beg whether these same folks would still be good if god ws taken out of the equation?
who knows...
all i know is...I'm an atheist...and i still do good without expecting a heaven as reward in the end.
doing good without expecting reward is more noble in my eyes
thankyou :)
Goodness has little to do with religion.
Hitler was very religious and so was Ghandi.
Stalin and Pol Pot were not religious.
Mother Teresa and the Dhali Lama are both religious and good people.
War and slavery is part of both the rational of religious and non-religious.
Most acts are due to factors that have little to do with religion, but religion can help you do good acts.
Christian morality isn't based in religion of fear because as a Christian I already know I failed.
My morality is based on the fact that through good deeds I will bring enjoyment to others.
There is no greater gift than seeing someone enjoy something that you did for them, this especially true if they don't know it was from you.
Only through sacrifice and suffering can you truly understand joy.
That is point of both Lent and Ramadan.
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id also like to re-iterate that there is no such thing as good or bad, merely choices and outcomes we label. you make a choice and our inherent morality decides the nature of the act.
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id also like to re-iterate that there is no such thing as good or bad, merely choices and outcomes we label. you make a choice and our inherent morality decides the nature of the act.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morality)
Society dictates morality.
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i dont think it does for many reasons, however they have already been talked about out the ass, so go back and read them if you want but there are faults in your society schema.
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i dont think it does for many reasons, however they have already been talked about out the ass, so go back and read them if you want but there are faults in your society schema.
Morality is based on a few things.
A basic first year ethics class would tell you what they are.
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/morality-definition/ (http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/morality-definition/)
You can argue with Stanford. Personally I don't know enough about the topic to argue with someone with a doctorate in Philosophy.
If you don't agree with them and you can prove to me that you know more then the Stanford Philosophy department, then I will listen to you.
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Can you please explain how this helps your side and not mine? :$ <-----see what I tried to do there ;D
Christians believe in a "Good" and a "Bad".
Eg, an action could be deemed good or bad. Killing a man is bad, and littering is as well. They are not equally bad though.
Forgiving someone and to open the door for a retard, are examples of good actions.
I thought you, as a Christian, knew this? ???
YIP
Zack
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srry steller but what toxic wrote, s'tru :P
Sorry Clubber Lang, but what STella wrote is the truth!
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Christians, Jews and Muslims are good because they believe if they r not good they r gonna end up in hell
ToxicAvenger,
That is not what Christianity teaches. In fact, this is what makes Christianity unique. All other religions are based on "human achievement", while Christianity is based on "God's intervention". It is not what we do, but what Jesus Christ did for us.
Christians seek doing good and avoid evil out of love, faith and respect for God, out of love and respect for others, out of a thankfulness for what Jesus did for us, out of a desire to be more like Jesus. And even this love, faith, respect, thankfulness, and desire to be more like Jesus, even the power and desire to do good and avoid evil does not come from ourselves. It comes from God and we have nothing to boast about. Christianity teaches this:
Romans 3:10
As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one;
Romans 6:23
"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Romans 5:8
"But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us."
Habakkuk 2:4
but the righteous will live by his faith
Romans 1:17
"The righteous will live by faith."
Galatians 3:11
"The righteous will live by faith."
Galatians 2:16
know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ.
Ephesians 2:8-9
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.
Ephesians 1:13
"Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,"
Acts 1:8
"But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you"
Romans 8:9
"You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ."
Ephesians 2:10
For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
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And the cool part about it is............... no matter how many sins you commit you are still going ot heaven if you accepted Jesus Christ as your savior!
So sin to your hearts desire young grasshopper!
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And the cool part about it is............... no matter how many sins you commit you are still going ot heaven if you accepted Jesus Christ as your savior!
So sin to your hearts desire young grasshopper!
not in islam though...some sins are never forgiven..and your muslim ass goes to hell..
dunno about how judaism works...
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And the cool part about it is............... no matter how many sins you commit you are still going ot heaven if you accepted Jesus Christ as your savior!
Correct
So sin to your hearts desire young grasshopper!
Who told you this? Christianity does not teach that accepting Jesus Christ gives you license to sin to your heart's desires. We follow Jesus and try to be like him. Jesus was a perfect example of doing good out of love for God and out of love for others. Jesus never told us to sin to our heart's desires.
2 Corinthians 5:17
"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!"
1 John 2:6
Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.
1 Peter 2:15-16
“For it is God's will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish men. Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as servants of God.”
Romans 3:31
Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law
1 John 2:3-4
We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1 John 2:1
My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One
Romans 6:1
What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means!
Romans 6:12-14
Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.
Romans 6: 20-23
When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
1 John 1:8-10
If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.
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Who told you this? Christianity does not teach this. We follow Jesus and try to be like him. Jesus was a perfect example of doing good out of love for God and out of love for others. Jesus never told us to sin our hearts desire.
You will go to heaven regardless, as long as you admits God and Jesus as his son.
God wants us to follow Jesus, but Jesus died for our sins, and we are forgiven.
An extreme example: If Hitler accepted God and Jesus before he died, he went straight to heaven. That's the way Christianity works.
The same goes for Gandhi: He wasn't Christian, so despite living a life that many would consider true to the Christian Ways, he is bound to burn in hell forever.
YIP
Zack
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You will go to heaven regardless, as long as you admits God and Jesus as his son.
God wants us to follow Jesus, but Jesus died for our sins, and we are forgiven.
An extreme example: If Hitler accepted God and Jesus before he died, he went straight to heaven. That's the way Christianity works.
The same goes for Gandhi: He wasn't Christian, so despite living a life that many would consider true to the Christian Ways, he is bound to burn in hell forever.
YIP
Zack
Agreed,
"no matter how many sins you commit you are still going to heaven if you accepted Jesus Christ as your savior!"...however, as a result of accepting Jesus Christ as your savior, you will be made a new person, a person who will NOT want to sin, a person who will suddenly care for others like never before and desire doing good things for others. A Christian has no fear of death, hell or God's wrath. Yet, a Christian will try to avoid evil and will try to do as much good as possible, not out of fear, but out of holiness which comes only from God, again as a result of accepting Jesus Christ as your savior.
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to joker, you miss the point that we are wired for morality that is our brains have a internal sense of morality. read some neuroethics for more info, your definition is of a broader sense, we are inherently moral, our brains are made to be moral. now this doesnt mean god did it, it has evolutionary adaptations, however they are tautological in nature.
i didnt pick any particular link for you to view but there is a ton of info on the site. people miss the point that to be moral requires a moral brain, or to be wired to be moral, society did not create morality, in that the first person would have to be self moral inherent, see my point. morality is a natural human function, an inherent function not a make beleif societal constraint.
http://neuroethics.upenn.edu/
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ummmm..... Toxy...... Christianity does not teach that being good earns you heaven for a reward.
In fact it teaches that none are righteous...no, not one.
It teaches that the only thing that can get you into heaven is what Jesus Christ did for you.
That is clearly written in Ephesians 2:8,9:
"FOR YOU ARE SAVED BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH, SO THAT NO ONE CAN BOAST."
And just out of curiosity, have you ever done anything bad? Assuming that you will admit that yes, you have done something bad (just like the rest of us), does that mean you are no longer "good?" What percentage of bad vs good acts and thoughts makes a person "bad" or "good?"
so basically someone could live his entire life killing, robbing, raping and minutes before he dies he can accept God into his heart and he will be sitting in heaven next to some of his victims. while some poor mother in Africa who was never introduced to western christianity who spent her entire life working her fingers to the bone from sun up to sun down all while raising two kids who are always near death will go to hell. god is good.
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i think you have a point, the bible huggers can have at it, your reason is the reason i dont prescribe to a religion, if god is all loving, all knowing he doesnt care if you accept him, why would he.
question for religious people, why did god create us, what compelled him to create us?
joker, society does dictate what is wrong or right in a hard wired sense, laws etc, but we have a internal presupposition to morality that is inherent or soft wired per se. morality is part of the human condition not a dictated by society, by constrained by it into what is acceptable. basically we are wired to be moral, plato was right about society but in so far as the question asked in which i never asked what dictates morality but why are we moral to begin with, why do we feel there is a right and wrong in the end there are merely choices with labels, because of us.
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Usmokepole,
A sense of right and wrong is important for the survival of any intelligent species.
As creatures humans are weak and would not survive without a collective thought. It is collective thought that makes us strong.
Normative behaviour is moderated through society and it is in this sense that I argue what morality is.
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so you are agreeing that morality is inherant yet you evoke an external force to moderate it. im simply arguing that morality is a common human trait like empathy and is not created by society but in spite of. morality is a human condition, we have come pre-programmed to be moral, but society dictates what is right according to the majority,it still doesnt determine what right and wrong essentially is, that is inherent.
i dont understand your position you said morality is because of society yet you say it is important for survival thus a genetic predisposition essentially. collective thought has nothing to do with survival, intelligence does, individuals are intelligent, groups of people not so. groups cause groupthink, collectives cause subordination, deinvidualization and waivering of morals with aminity. intelligence is important but not collective thought, i dont even know what you mean by "collective thought" do you mean ideas, since thought is a personally entity, opinions or ideas can be shared but are substrates of individual thoughts. similar thoughts can be shared perhaps, but why does collective thoughts register any more importance then individual thoughts, that is why good is it for two people to think of the wheel when one would suffice.
clarify what your stance is im a little confused by your position, and what you mean by collective thought, and how does collective thought help a species. evolution occurs on the species level not idividual. single celled organsims know right and wrong according to our definitions, we just call it morality and justice and police it.
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so you are agreeing that morality is inherant yet you evoke an external force to moderate it. im simply arguing that morality is a common human trait like empathy and is not created by society but in spite of. morality is a human condition, we have come pre-programmed to be moral, but society dictates what is right according to the majority,it still doesnt determine what right and wrong essentially is, that is inherent.
i dont understand your position you said morality is because of society yet you say it is important for survival thus a genetic predisposition essentially. collective thought has nothing to do with survival, intelligence does, individuals are intelligent, groups of people not so. groups cause groupthink, collectives cause subordination, deinvidualization and waivering of morals with aminity. intelligence is important but not collective thought, i dont even know what you mean by "collective thought" do you mean ideas, since thought is a personally entity, opinions or ideas can be shared but are substrates of individual thoughts. similar thoughts can be shared perhaps, but why does collective thoughts register any more importance then individual thoughts, that is why good is it for two people to think of the wheel when one would suffice.
clarify what your stance is im a little confused by your position, and what you mean by collective thought, and how does collective thought help a species. evolution occurs on the species level not idividual. single celled organsims know right and wrong according to our definitions, we just call it morality and justice and police it.
Collective thought has been seen in many species including Bees and other collective organisms.
These organisms wouldn't exist without a collective mindset.
Humans have a collective mindset. This is based on the fact that every person in the collective assumes a role and works for the common good of society. This is how tribes work. People hunt others cook, and some gather. All work for the collective good of the group.
With the advent of farming and herding we have developed more free time to spend on human thought. However collectivisn is still a part of human nature.
Right and Wrong is subjective and is moderated by society. Slavery, Canibalism, Mass suicides, human sacrifice and tribal killings have been a part of various societies throughout history. These acts would have been considered moral at that time.
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ok altruism in a sense. yes there is no basis for morality i agree, but it is instilled in us ala neuroethics, do you see my point. we arent hardwired to say eat babies bad, have sex good but are programmed to decipher right and wrong.
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Agreed,
"no matter how many sins you commit you are still going to heaven if you accepted Jesus Christ as your savior!"...however, as a result of accepting Jesus Christ as your savior, you will be made a new person, a person who will NOT want to sin, a person who will suddenly care for others like never before and desire doing good things for others. A Christian has no fear of death, hell or God's wrath. Yet, a Christian will try to avoid evil and will try to do as much good as possible, not out of fear, but out of holiness which comes only from God, again as a result of accepting Jesus Christ as your savior.
really? you'll be made a new person? Like this church leader who bought meth and reportedly had gay sex with a man? That's GOD's power? Or run of the mill weekday sinner - weekend church goer?
I have no fear of death save my family's greif. And that has nothing to do with accepting Jesus as my savior. Further more the "good deeds" i do are not attached to trying to make it to heaven. I am choosing to live by God's will. (not the gibberish you call the BIBle but much of what you and i find in it that is GOD, just not every word)
Where is GOD as my very good friend, PASTOR, who had spent the last 15 living a a near perfect life, now finds himself getting divorced, and whoring around drinking and getting drunk all the time? Was GOD ever truely in his heart? I question that, becuase of his anger with GOD, he has thrown away all the principles he has been preaching all those years? If that was the only holding him back then he was never that person to begin with.
Accepting Jesus Christ seems more like a get out of Jail free card that indirectly encourages you not to be accountable for your choices and actions. It makes a weak christain IMO.
Christians need to start acting more like christians.
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well said, i agree.people need to see that IF there is a god, he created us with all the capabilities we have, that is choice, and in that choice creates good or evil. god did not create good or bad he created free will and seperation.either god cares what we do or he doesnt, but an all loving god wouldnt punish me in my estimation, nor if he cared would he allow such a crap out, it is illogical of him to allow us the get out of jail free card, we learned nothing in the end and god shouldnt be illogical.
heres a crazy concept, in NDE'S everyone says we are one, we are all the same. quantum physics, ie quantum entanglement says the same thing, there is only one thing, we are all of one, physicists have actually used this argument to support monism. anywho i contend(or stole better yet) that we are all one in a spiritual sense and the reason for life is to know seperation, that is become unique so in this one we still are US or I. without this experience individuals would not occur.
but one question i always ask myself is why did god create us, why did he create anyway. why would he create us, cant answer it and i dont know of any philosophical approaches that suffice.
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so basically someone could live his entire life killing, robbing, raping and minutes before he dies he can accept God into his heart and he will be sitting in heaven next to some of his victims. while some poor mother in Africa who was never introduced to western christianity who spent her entire life working her fingers to the bone from sun up to sun down all while raising two kids who are always near death will go to hell. god is good.
no no no..works like that ONLY in christanity...in islam the poor mother goes to heaven..and the rapist goes to hell..
hense i say all the time...if i DID believe in god..i'd choose islam..more so because if ya actually read some of the koran its prety scientific....most folks wont read the actual book and instead choose to listen to the likes to nordic...cause its fun to it hate..it is..it really is...i've done it before.. :-\ ..back in the day i used to go around making christians fill like crap by bringing up them " let a snake bite me" christians... ;D....i ws less tolerant then... :-\
"calling the moon a satellite...telling people to eat a high protein meal in the morning (higher l-tryosine levels = more alertness) and high carb meals at nite( higher slin levels = easier sleep)
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no no no..works like that ONLY in christanity...in islam the poor mother goes to heaven..and the rapist goes to hell..
thats why im not a christian. growing up in the U.S all you are exposed to is western christianity. i think people need to see the forest from the trees and look at christianity objectively.
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really? you'll be made a new person? Like this church leader who bought meth and reportedly had gay sex with a man? That's GOD's power? Or run of the mill weekday sinner - weekend church goer?
I have no fear of death save my family's greif. And that has nothing to do with accepting Jesus as my savior. Further more the "good deeds" i do are not attached to trying to make it to heaven. I am choosing to live by God's will. (not the gibberish you call the BIBle but much of what you and i find in it that is GOD, just not every word)
Where is GOD as my very good friend, PASTOR, who had spent the last 15 living a a near perfect life, now finds himself getting divorced, and whoring around drinking and getting drunk all the time? Was GOD ever truely in his heart? I question that, becuase of his anger with GOD, he has thrown away all the principles he has been preaching all those years? If that was the only holding him back then he was never that person to begin with.
Accepting Jesus Christ seems more like a get out of Jail free card that indirectly encourages you not to be accountable for your choices and actions. It makes a weak christain IMO.
Christians need to start acting more like christians.
your mistake is judging christianity by one man's actions.
the only perfect man that ever lived was nailed to a cross.
all we as christians need to do is know for sure that our heart is right with God.
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your mistake is judging christianity by one man's actions.
the only perfect man that ever lived was nailed to a cross.
all we as christians need to do is know for sure that our heart is right with God.
One man's actions?
get out more and read the papers.
He ain't the only professed Christian to shoot their husband, cheat on their wife, have gay sex, do drugs, extort and black mail, etc...
Oh yeah but they aren't perfect so it's ok.
So come and join christianity where you can do what ever you want, and still go to heaven!
All we can do is make you feel guilty with our judgemental sermons and condesending crap.
FOLKS, there is a difference between making minor mistakes and choosing to commit major sins.
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really? you'll be made a new person?
Yes
Like this church leader who bought meth and reportedly had gay sex with a man? That's GOD's power? Or run of the mill weekday sinner - weekend church goer?
No, not like him.
I have no fear of death save my family's greif. And that has nothing to do with accepting Jesus as my savior. Further more the "good deeds" i do are not attached to trying to make it to heaven. I am choosing to live by God's will. (not the gibberish you call the BIBle but much of what you and i find in it that is GOD, just not every word)
Then you should be afraid, very afraid. That gibberish is God's holy word, and He still loves you even after you wrote that.
Where is GOD as my very good friend, PASTOR, who had spent the last 15 living a a near perfect life, now finds himself getting divorced, and whoring around drinking and getting drunk all the time? Was GOD ever truely in his heart?
Probably not, but I pray that this pastor will soon accept Jesus as his lord and saviour.
Accepting Jesus Christ seems more like a get out of Jail free card that indirectly encourages you not to be accountable for your choices and actions. It makes a weak christain IMO.
It may seem that way to you, but it is not. You are entitled to your opinion.
Christians need to start acting more like christians.
Many Christians act like Christians. You pick on a select few, so called "Christians" to justify you lack of faith in Jesus Christ and in God's word.
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Then you should be afraid, very afraid. That gibberish is God's holy word, and He still loves you even after you wrote that.
Him loving me is not the issue. I wonder if he loved the 3000 men women and children he ordered moses to kill.
Most of the Bible is gibberish with some very great passages of GoD's word, just as in many other holy books that aren't christians. That's the great part about christiainity and other religions for that matter, they are ALL very CONVINCED they have the right answers. :)
Probably not, but I pray that this pastor will soon accept Jesus as his lord and saviour.
I wonder how you would of answered if i accused this pastor of not being touched by god before all this happened?
"Oh my this great spritual leader of GOD's word!"
It may seem that way to you, but it is not. You are entitled to your opinion.
Umm, but it is. I can do what ever i want, just like that pastor and because i've accepted Jesus Chrisgt as my savior, I'll go to heaven.
Many Christians act like Christians. You pick on a select few, so called "Christians" to justify you lack of faith in Jesus Christ and in God's word.
no, the vast majority of Christians do not follow the BIble literally and 72% of people do not believe it literally.
AND..............many Christians committ the same sins repeatedly........... even with the supposed race of god.
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One man's actions?
get out more and read the papers.
He ain't the only professed Christian to shoot their husband, cheat on their wife, have gay sex, do drugs, extort and black mail, etc...
Oh yeah but they aren't perfect so it's ok.
So come and join christianity where you can do what ever you want, and still go to heaven!
All we can do is make you feel guilty with our judgemental sermons and condesending crap.
FOLKS, there is a difference between making minor mistakes and choosing to commit major sins.
so christians are supposed to be perfect and not commit any sins??
you must stop worrying about what another man does. man will always fail you. no man is perfect. and everytime you read about some awful deed another christian has done, it just adds fuel to your fire.
you just need to worry about YOUR own relationship with God.
God will deal with those people who kill, rape, drive drunk and kill familys, abuse children. etc...
it is not your job to judge those people.
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so christians are supposed to be perfect and not commit any sins??
Can you read and understand this sentence: "FOLKS, there is a difference between making minor mistakes and choosing to commit major sins."
Does that say "christians should be perfect"?
you must stop worrying about what another man does. man will always fail you. no man is perfect. and everytime you read about some awful deed another christian has done, it just adds fuel to your fire.
I should stop worrying about it? These are the same self righteous people i see every day on TV damning everything non-christian. Man is perfect, man is GOD's creation... 90% of the sins yiou find in the Bible are not sins, but rather tools to control other men through guilt and fire and brimstone and fear of GOD.
An awful deed another christian has done? THese are CHRISTIAN LEADERS for heavens sake. It's like if BUSH passed military secrets to Al Queda.
God will deal with those people who kill, rape, drive drunk and kill familys, abuse children. etc...
it is not your job to judge those people.
It's not my job? But it's other christian's job to judge people, to decide the will of GOD? I can't tell how many times i've seen a christian telling another person they will burn in hell for something minor like looking at beautiful woman or damning someone becuase they choose an alternative lifestyle....who are you to judge, who are they to judge from GOD's chair?
I'm judging them becuase they don't practice what they preach, they don;t follow the BIBLE word for word.
Again:
Christians need to act more like christians!
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Christians need to act more like christians!
Ozmo,
Please explain what this means without sarcasm. How should a Christian live? Are Christians supposed to be perfect and follow the Bible word by word? Honestly, just tell me what you expect from Christians.
This thread started out saying that Christians do good and avoid evil, but only out of fear of hell. We established that Christians are not afraid of hell. So now you insist that Christians are evil because they do not fear hell. So which is it? Make up your mind.
You said that 70% of all Christians are evil. What about the other 30%? Are they good? Do you know any Christians who are not evil or hypocrites? Have you ever heard of George Muller and everything that he did for other people? How about Dietrich Bonhoeffer? Come on, look them up and read about them and what they did. These Christian men gave their life to the service of God and others. What motivated them? Jesus Christ. I don't see you saying anything about these men. Instead, you pick on the preacher who raped some child.
Why are you so angry, bitter and hateful toward Christians? Did something happen to you or was something done to you? I'm just trying to understand where your anger and hatred comes from. Your anger and bitterness hurts only yourself. You are no better than these evil "Christians" you judge and accuse.
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Ozmo,
Please explain what this means without sarcasm. How should a Christian live? Are Christians supposed to be perfect and follow the Bible word by word? Honestly, just tell me what you expect from Christians.
This thread started out saying that Christians do good and avoid evil, but only out of fear of hell. We established that Christians are not afraid of hell. So now you insist that Christians are evil because they do not fear hell. So which is it? Make up your mind.
You said that 70% of all Christians are evil. What about the other 30%? Are they good? Do you know any Christians who are not evil or hypocrites? Have you ever heard of George Muller and everything that he did for other people? How about Dietrich Bonhoeffer? Come on, look them up and read about them and what they did. These Christian men gave their life to the service of God and others. What motivated them? Jesus Christ. I don't see you saying anything about these men. Instead, you pick on the preacher who raped some child.
Why are you so angry, bitter and hateful toward Christians? Did something happen to you or was something done to you? I'm just trying to understand where your anger and hatred comes from. Your anger and bitterness hurts only yourself. You are no better than these evil "Christians" you judge and accuse.
could not have said it better myself.
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so basically someone could live his entire life killing, robbing, raping and minutes before he dies he can accept God into his heart and he will be sitting in heaven next to some of his victims.
Not necessarily. Accepting God will not save him. Even demons believe in God. He must accept Jesus Christ as his personal Lord and Saviour. He must sincerely believe that Jesus died in his place for all his sins, killing, robbing, raping, etc. But he will go to hell if he does not sincerely repent and truly believe in Jesus Christ minutes before he dies. God cannot be fooled. The Lord looks at the heart.
Galatians 6:7
Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked
1 Samuel 16:7
the LORD looks at the heart
James 2:19
You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder
Luke 23:39-43
One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: "Aren't you the Christ? Save yourself and us!"
But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence?
We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong."
Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."
Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."
he will be sitting in heaven next to some of his victims
Only if those victims believed in Jesus Christ
while some poor mother in Africa who was never introduced to western christianity who spent her entire life working her fingers to the bone from sun up to sun down all while raising two kids who are always near death will go to hell. god is good.
This poor mother in Africa may not have killed, robbed and raped, but she is still not without sin, nobody is.
Romans 3:10
"There is no one righteous, not even one"
Romans 3:23
"for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"
If this poor mother in Africa dies never having heard about Jesus Christ, then don't worry. God will deal with her with love and with justice. Leave that to God. I would not worry about her if I were you, but I would worry about your own soul. You have heard the good news about Jesus Christ dying for your sins. So you are without excuse.
If you are so truly concerned about this woman, then believe in Jesus Christ and you will be saved. Then go to Africa and preach the gospel to her so that she too may believe and be saved. I would not be saved today if it wasn't for Southern Baptist missionaries who selflessly gave up their comfortable, fancy lives in the US and moved to my country to preach the gospel.
Matthew 28:19
"Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit"
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Most of the Bible is gibberish with some very great passages of GoD's word,
OzmO,
You've been saying for weeks that ALL of the Bible is gibberish written by mere men and that none of it is the truth and that none of it is God's word. You also have been criticizing the Godly men who compiled the Bible that we have today. Now you are saying that MOST, not all of the Bible is gibberisth. Now you are saying that some of it is God's word, that some of it is the truth. Which is it?
So which part of the Bible is God's word and which part isn't? Who decides that? You? What makes you better and more qualified to decide what is God's word than the men you criticise for compiling the Bible?
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why did god create us?
For His pleasure.
Revelation 4:11
"Thou hast created all things, and for Thy pleasure they are and were created."
Colossians 1:16
"All things were created by Him and for Him."
For the same reason that some people decide to have children and love them, raise them, teach them, discipline them, provide for them, give them good things. Even some people who do not want to and will not have children often entertain the idea of having a little "mini me" running around the house. It's in our nature just as much as it is in God's nature, to create/procreate new life.
Matthew 7:11
If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!
Hebrews 12:7
Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father?
Galatians 4:6
Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, "Abba, Father."
Matthew 5:45
that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
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OzmO,
I'm just curious. From what means do you base your knowledge of how Christians are "supposed" to behave? Since you call the Bible a bunch of gibberish, I'd like to know from what source you use to base your opinions. It sounds like you've put your pastor friend on a pedestal that he never belonged on. Church members tend to do this with their pastors. And so it is with non-believers (I'm not convinced that you've given your heart totally to Christ yet, especially based on your hatred and bitterness towards others who are believers). The Christian you seek out "DOES NOT EXIST", bro. It seems like the deeper we delve into the topic of Christian behavior and the legitimacy of the Bible, you get more and more furious.
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the only perfect man that ever lived was nailed to a cross.
thats YOUR opinion..frankly..if some ijit came rambling about some trinity told you he ws god NOW A DAYS...what would u do...
you'd also call the police on him.....be honest..yeah u would...
me..i'd rather nail his ass 2 a cross..
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so basically someone could live his entire life killing, robbing, raping and minutes before he dies he can accept God into his heart and he will be sitting in heaven next to some of his victims. while some poor mother in Africa who was never introduced to western christianity who spent her entire life working her fingers to the bone from sun up to sun down all while raising two kids who are always near death will go to hell. god is good.
not in islam.whic is why i always say..if i actually believe in god..i'd consider the religion...
in islam the african woman goes to heaven..and u go to hell...
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not in islam.whic is why i always say..if i actually believe in god..i'd consider the religion...
in islam the african woman goes to heaven..and u go to hell...
What makes you think you know God's will.
Also how come you can go to heaven for killing non-believers.
Islam as taught by Imams that spew hate is a vile religion.
Maybe you can explain to me why apostasy is still relevant in Muslim ruled countries.
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OzmO,
You've been saying for weeks that ALL of the Bible is gibberish written by mere men and that none of it is the truth and that none of it is God's word.
Do you have trouble reading also? I'm not going to take the time to quote my own words that have said on many occasions, included in this very thread, that I believe the BIBLE contains the word of GOD just not every word.
It's shit like this, twisting of words, or lack of reading ability, that's common among the overly righteous.
OzmO,
You also have been criticizing the Godly men who compiled the Bible that we have today.
Do you know these people who wrote the BIBLE? Tell me every person who wrote every book in it. Do you know these people personally? Do you know their motivations for writing what they wrote and under what conditions they wrote it? Could you repeat word for word with 100% accuracy 35 sentences someone said 30 years ago that you heard once?
And then theirs good 'ole PAUL with his hatred for anything female. lol
Women are supposed to be submissive to their husbands? You have any idea how much shit that has caused females over the ages? GOD wants this? no way.
OzmO,
Now you are saying that some of it is God's word, that some of it is the truth. Which is it?
It's mostly gibberish.
So which part of the Bible is God's word and which part isn't? Who decides that? You? What makes you better and more qualified to decide what is God's word than the men you criticise for compiling the Bible?
What parts aren't the of GOD are pretty easy to figure out considering it was written by man. Use this as a rule of thumb: Anything written that promotes control indirectly or directly other then the commandments.
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OzmO,
I'm just curious. From what means do you base your knowledge of how Christians are "supposed" to behave? Since you call the Bible a bunch of gibberish, I'd like to know from what source you use to base your opinions. It sounds like you've put your pastor friend on a pedestal that he never belonged on. Church members tend to do this with their pastors. And so it is with non-believers (I'm not convinced that you've given your heart totally to Christ yet, especially based on your hatred and bitterness towards others who are believers). The Christian you seek out "DOES NOT EXIST", bro. It seems like the deeper we delve into the topic of Christian behavior and the legitimacy of the Bible, you get more and more furious.
My point with my pastor firend has nothing to do with a pedestal. My point is that IF his belief in GOD (or inversley his anger at GOD)is the only thing keeping from commiting sins means that in his heart he never choose not to commit the sin. So is he truely doing living with GOD in his heart? NO. If he really felt those things were a sin he'd not choose to do it regardless of GOD. THAT's truely living with GOD in your heart.
Now for the PERFECT christian explanation for you and loco and why i have a problems with many christians (this is just an explanation not an accusation ;))
- What i don;t care for is THUMPERS. People that are happy to quote scriptures, telling people what's right and wrong beyond the ten commandments. Most of them are easy to judge people and automatically say they will go to hell and display pity for non-christains.
- what's even worse are the THUMPERS who "Choose" to commit sins. The key word here is "CHOOSE". Christiainity encourages people not to be accountable for their actions and these type pf thumpers repeatedly choose to commit sins.
- Then there's the thumpers, with their self righteous bullshit who do not follow the bible word for word but can quote it exactly when it comes to telling someone else they are sinning. They interpret it to their convenience. They are hypocrites.
Are people Perfect? As far as GOD's creation i believe they are. It's all the "sins" in the bible that were written by men that make them unperfect. Take that out of the equation and you have mostly good natured, friendly, loving people. It's the long list of bull shit sins that's make it impossible not to sin. And then set the stage for guilt driven control.
Are there perfect christiains? YES! Perfect in the sense of following the 10 commandments. But if you are going to judge other people then you must live by those judgements and that's where i have most of my problems when i see these supposed christains running around doing thing like that pasotr did when he bought meth and had sex with a man.
That's why i say christiains shold act more like christains. Remember what that guy did is very telling of many many christains when it comes to choosing to commit sins, not the stupid ones..... the bigger ones. Like lusting after a pretty woman, or having gay sex. Remember:
HE choose to do that.
Or are you saying his desire for another man was something he couldn't help?
That would bring us to whether or not homo-sexuality is a choice huh? HAHAHAHAHAH
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Christiainity encourages people not to be accountable for their actions
you have absolutely no knowledge of christianity. none, zero, nothing, zip.
why have a battle of wits with and unarmed "man"??
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you have absolutely no knowledge of christianity. none, zero, nothing, zip.
why have a battle of wits with and unarmed "man"??
Well intended, even with an over used cliche'
Mighty............. answer me this:
If a man accepts jesus as his savior can he sin and still go to heaven? Yes or no?
Becuase if it's yes (and it is) , then maybe i I'll go an kill someone and not worry about a single thing.
BTW, i have far more knowledge of Christainity than you.
BTW, God loves you. just don't make a gold calf becuase he might order someone to kill your child.
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What makes you think you know God's will.
Also how come you can go to heaven for killing non-believers.
Islam as taught by Imams that spew hate is a vile religion.
Maybe you can explain to me why apostasy is still relevant in Muslim ruled countries.
whats apostasy??
you dont go to heaven for killing non believers..lmao....stop listening to these dumb fucks..and read the damn book and see for yourselves..
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Do you have trouble reading also? I'm not going to take the time to quote my own words that have said on many occasions, included in this very thread, that I believe the BIBLE contains the word of GOD just not every word.
It's shit like this, twisting of words, or lack of reading ability, that's common among the overly righteous.
Previous posts from you had let me to believe that you were a good natured, intelligent, civilized person. Now your true self comes out. You are one bitter, touchy, hateful individual. I suppose your intentions are to offend me and all other Christians. No offense taken. It's okay, you don't know any better.
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Previous posts from you had let me to believe that you were a good natured, intelligent, civilized person. Now your true self comes out. You are one bitter, touchy, hateful individual. I suppose your intentions are to offend me and all other Christians. No offense taken. It's okay, you don't know any better.
classic.
Saying i think the "none of it" is gods words is an big point in this debate. And putting words in a person's mouth and crtitisizing him for those words is a pathetic tactic and then replying with insults for calling you it is even more classic. lol
Can't even admit a mistake can you oh righteous one? I suppose you feel you are "justified by faith?" lol
Oh the righteous............... .. lol
I suppose you'll follow it up woth another statement laced with pity. THUMP THUMP
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Ozmo you do sound pretty bitter and angry.
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Ozmo you do sound pretty bitter and angry.
He's just having a normal reaction to a stupid poster. Loco has obviously never heard of rational thought in any discussion.
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Ozmo you do sound pretty bitter and angry.
Well, if i do sound bitter an angry it's probably the way i'm trying to to put an "edge" on my debate responses. It's hard to do with written words. ;) Also, when i was writing most of those posts i was reminded of the many condeming thumpers i've had the pleasure of dealing over the years. So you may be right. But I'm not bitter an angry. Maybe just overly aggressive. :P
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whats apostasy??
you dont go to heaven for killing non believers..lmao....stop listening to these dumb fucks..and read the damn book and see for yourselves..
Apostasy, is killing people that switch religions. This happens to be law in Saudi Arabia, and some other Middle East countries as well as Afghanistan and some tribal areas in Pakistan.
On a side note why are Muslim men encouraged to show of their bodies in sports like body building, but women can get stoned to death if they leave their house without a family member. :-\
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a stupid poster. Loco
DF,
May the Lord bless and prosper you and your family!
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classic.
Saying i think the "none of it" is gods words is an big point in this debate. And putting words in a person's mouth and crtitisizing him for those words is a pathetic tactic and then replying with insults for calling you it is even more classic. lol
Can't even admit a mistake can you oh righteous one? I suppose you feel you are "justified by faith?" lol
Oh the righteous............... .. lol
I suppose you'll follow it up woth another statement laced with pity. THUMP THUMP
My mistake. I admit it. I didn't know that you believing that none of the Bible is God's word was a big part of the debate. But now that you have pointed that out, I apologize for thinking that you believe that none of the Bible is God's word. I simply misunderstood all of your previous posts regarding God's word:
You don't need a book of stories, wisdom and contradictions to prove god exsists.
Well i would think if this is the all mighty word of GOD he could write it in such a way that "contracdictions or suspected contradictions don't exsist" Perhaps he was sleeping in writing class when he was a junior Heaven High School.
Also there is accurate history in the BIble. Doesn't means it's the word of god.
That's why OT predictions and NT writings are moot. They are not proof of anything.
I just don't believe in organized religion and the BIBle and Koran is a BIg part of organized religion.
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Do you have trouble reading also? It's shit like this, twisting of words, or lack of reading ability, that's common among the overly righteous.
Ozmo,
you of all people should not be accusing anyone of having a lack of reading ability. You of all people should not be accusing anyone of twisting of words. You yourself have shown a lack of reading ability before, and you have twisted God's words. This, pointing out other people's faults before looking at your own, makes you "overly righteous".
Only god is supposed to talk about the heaven!
Jeremiah 10:2
Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.
;D ;D :o ??? :P
If you read the versus before that in Acts you'll sdee they are describing his death.
Then why didn't you include the verse before?
Verse 17 says: "he was one of our number and shared in this ministry."
Where does it say how Judas died?
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oh righteous one?
Oh the righteous............... .. lol
THUMP THUMP
Ozmo,
I'm not righteous. Why do you say that I am rightous, self rightous, or overly rightous? I have never said that I am rightous. I am a sinner and I make mistakes all the time. Actually, I've been posting that I am not rightous, that nobody is.
Romans 3:10
As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one;"
Romans 3:23
"for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,"
You on the other hand:
Are people Perfect? As far as GOD's creation i believe they are. It's all the "sins" in the bible that were written by men that make them unperfect. Take that out of the equation and you have mostly good natured, friendly, loving people. It's the long list of bull shit sins that's make it impossible not to sin. And then set the stage for guilt driven control.
Are there perfect christiains? YES! Perfect in the sense of following the 10 commandments.
I respect your beliefs on the above, but you have no reason to get angry and call me self-righteous for disagreeing with you.
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Are people Perfect? As far as GOD's creation i believe they are. It's all the "sins" in the bible that were written by men that make them unperfect. Take that out of the equation and you have mostly good natured, friendly, loving people. It's the long list of bull shit sins that's make it impossible not to sin. And then set the stage for guilt driven control.
What "long list of bull shit sins" are you talking about OzmO?
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Apostasy, is killing people that switch religions. This happens to be law in Saudi Arabia, and some other Middle East countries as well as Afghanistan and some tribal areas in Pakistan.
i ws brought up in a muslim household..i dont think its the law in saudi..but it might be in afghan....i ws never taught that and i grew up in a muslim household mate..now if some insecure girl wants to commit such crimes shoulder the burdeon on islam..i cant help that...
On a side note why are Muslim men encouraged to show of their bodies in sports like body building, but women can get stoned to death if they leave their house without a family member. :-\
the koran mentions bodybuilding! awesome! apparently you've never been to a beach in dubai..plenty of muslim walking around half naked..i dont se no stones getting thrown....plenty of eastern block muslims also...they go to clubs..drink...weap bikinis..meh..you r mistaking culture with religion sometimes..
PS technically..both women and men are supposed to cover up..its the same in juadiasm <sp?>...and aren't girls and boys seperated in catholic schools?
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My mistake. I admit it. I didn't know that you believing that none of the Bible is God's word was a big part of the debate. But now that you have pointed that out, I apologize for thinking that you believe that none of the Bible is God's word. I simply misunderstood all of your previous posts regarding God's word:
Apology accepted.
None of the other quotes directly say i think the bible has "no word of God in it"
The reason i called you self righteous was based on what i precieved as you twisting my words. So i apologize becuase the in reality i don;t know you well enought to accuse of something like that.
Again i apologize.
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What "long list of bull shit sins" are you talking about OzmO?
Let's start with anything outside the ten commandments. Certainly not everyone of them but one's like:
Homosexuality: It's not a choice other than to act on physical and emotional needs.
Being attracted to a another woman while married: Can't help noticing a beautiful woman, but Jesus says, and i may be wrong, it's a sin to even think it. To me the sin is to CHOOSE to act on it, not to think it. Thiniking it is just being human.
Women being being submissive to their husbands.
Moses law: I don;t have time tonite to start getting into that one.
That should get us started ;D
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Apology accepted.
None of the other quotes directly say i think the bible has "no word of God in it"
The reason i called you self righteous was based on what i precieved as you twisting my words. So i apologize becuase the in reality i don;t know you well enought to accuse of something like that.
Again i apologize.
Apology accepted. Now, let's continue our debate. ;D
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i ws brought up in a muslim household..i dont think its the law in saudi..but it might be in afghan....i ws never taught that and i grew up in a muslim household mate..now if some insecure pussy wants to commit such crimes shoulder the burdeon on islam..i cant help that...
the koran mentions bodybuilding! awesome! apparently you've never been to a beach in dubai..plenty of muslim walking around half naked..i dont se no stones getting thrown....plenty of eastern block muslims also...they go to clubs..drink...weap bikinis..meh..you r mistaking culture with religion sometimes..
PS technically..both women and men are supposed to cover up..its the same in juadiasm <sp?>...and aren't girls and boys seperated in catholic schools?
No, I am talking about different sects of Muslim, I have the same intolerance for Christian groups that put religion ahead of human rights.
It is just easier to pick apart a whole nation that follows that same ideology. I.E. Whabism in Saudi Arabia.
For fun dispute this info about Apostasy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam)
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Let's start with anything outside the ten commandments. Certainly not everyone of them but one's like:
Homosexuality: It's not a choice other than to act on physical and emotional needs.
Being attracted to a another woman while married: Can't help noticing a beautiful woman, but Jesus says, and i may be wrong, it's a sin to even think it. To me the sin is to CHOOSE to act on it, not to think it. Thiniking it is just being human.
Women being being submissive to their husbands.
Moses law: I don;t have time tonite to start getting into that one.
That should get us started ;D
Homosexuality is absolutely a choice. Ask Angelina Jolie and Anne Hesch. No science to prove otherwise.
Being attracted to another woman is not a sin. Fantasizing about sex with another woman who isn't your wife is. That is something you have complete control over.
Wives submitting to their husbands and husbands respecting and loving their wives as Christ loved the church. Not exactly PC, but that's the Biblical model. Not a problem at all if the husband lives up to his role.
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i deserve a fackin standing ovation...
i'm mostly good...
PS...i mostly never get laid cause of it >:(
ToxicAvenger,
I do agree with you that you are more noble and good if you are self motivated to do good expecting no reward and without fear of hell. Christians are not motivated to do good out of fear of hell either. Like you, Christians do good without expecting a reward in exchange. However, Christians are motivated by the love of Jesus Christ and you are not. So that makes you more noble and good. It really does. Now, all you need is faith in Jesus Christ and you'll have forgiveness and eternal life too.
Now, I have some questions:
"mostly never getting laid" is your definition of being good, or doing good?
Below I have listed only three of the many Christians who have selflessly given their life and made contributions to humanity. Keep in mind that these men and women did all of this expecting no reward, and they got none. They were not motivated by fear of hell. They were motivated by nothing less than Jesus Christ's love in their hearts.
Can you name one atheist who has done anything like this, one whose life comes even close to the life of these Christians?
Charlotte Digges "Lottie" Moon (1840-1912) was a Southern Baptist missionary to China who spent 40 years helping the Chinese. She weighed only 50 lbs at her death, having given away all she had to aid the starving Chinese. She was formally educated with undergraduate and masters degrees in education. She spoke numerous languages: Latin, Greek, French, Italian and Spanish; and, while in China, she rapidly learned fluent Chinese. She was also fluent in reading Hebrew.
George Müller (September 27, 1805 – March 10, 1898), a Christian evangelist and coordinator of orphanages in Bristol, England, cared for a total of over 100,000 orphans in his life. He was well-known for his constant faith in God and for providing an education to the children under his care, to the point where he was accused of raising the poor above their natural station in life.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer (February 4, 1906 – April 9, 1945) was a German Lutheran pastor, theologian and participant in the German resistance movement against Nazism. He was involved in plots planned by members of the Abwehr (the German Military Intelligence Office) to assassinate Adolf Hitler. During World War II, Bonhoeffer played a key leadership role in the Confessing Church, which opposed the anti-semitic policies of Adolf Hitler. He was among those who called for wider church resistance to Hitler's treatment of the Jews. He was arrested in April 1943 after money used to help Jews escape to Switzerland was traced to him. He was arrested, imprisoned and eventually hanged, just before the end of the Second World War in Europe.
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Dalai Lama
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Dalai Lama
What? A Buddhist Monk? What about him? Educate me.
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No, I am talking about different sects of Muslim, I have the same intolerance for Christian groups that put religion ahead of human rights.
It is just easier to pick apart a whole nation that follows that same ideology. I.E. Whabism in Saudi Arabia.
For fun dispute this info about Apostasy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam)
thanx man but i'm just not interested all that much in god..no matter what religion to read that....
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Homosexuality is absolutely a choice. Ask Angelina Jolie and Anne Hesch. No science to prove otherwise.
Being attracted to another woman is not a sin. Fantasizing about sex with another woman who isn't your wife is. That is something you have complete control over.
Wives submitting to their husbands and husbands respecting and loving their wives as Christ loved the church. Not exactly PC, but that's the Biblical model. Not a problem at all if the husband lives up to his role.
;D
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Wives submitting to their husbands and husbands respecting and loving their wives as Christ loved the church. Not exactly PC, but that's the Biblical model. Not a problem at all if the husband lives up to his role.
Amen ;D
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God desires a relationship with us. Sin seperates us from that relationship. Jesus died to restore that relationship. The focus of the reward of "heaven" should not and is not on material things but on having a perfect relationship with our Creator......being in His presence (which it is impossible to be in his presence with sin). That being said, the "reward" of having a relationship with God is even beneficial in this life.
I think your idea of heaven is skewed.......also on judging christians......let a lone what motivates them, but I could be wrong. Wouldnt be the first time.
Thats why I dont judge people or compare them from one to another.
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Homosexuality is absolutely a choice. Ask Angelina Jolie and Anne Hesch. No science to prove otherwise.
Being attracted to another woman is not a sin. Fantasizing about sex with another woman who isn't your wife is. That is something you have complete control over.
Wives submitting to their husbands and husbands respecting and loving their wives as Christ loved the church. Not exactly PC, but that's the Biblical model. Not a problem at all if the husband lives up to his role.
Is not liking or liking Chocolate a choice? ;)
Do you remember exactly what Jesus said on the matter, word for word?
I would think saying something to the effect that a marraige is a partnership would have been better and cuased far fewer problems. But in the alleged perfection of what's suspected as GOD's direct words through PAul, it seems very imperfect and the cause of many problems. Also the verses are very related to the social situation of man and women relationships of those times. Wouldn't the word of GOD be eternal in both wisdom and time?
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Is not liking or liking Chocolate a choice? ;)
Do you remember exactly what Jesus said on the matter, word for word?
I would think saying something to the effect that a marraige is a partnership would have been better and cuased far fewer problems. But in the alleged perfection of what's suspected as GOD's direct words through PAul, it seems very imperfect and the cause of many problems. Also the verses are very related to the social situation of man and women relationships of those times. Wouldn't the word of GOD be eternal in both wisdom and time?
For me, loving chocolate is not a choice. But whether I eat it or not is entirely my choice. That's how temptation works. Temptations come in areas in which we are weak, and everyone has their weaknesses. For some, it's homosexuality. But how do you explain people like Jolie and Hesch?
Yes I remember Jesus' exact words: "But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart." Matt 5:28. That is entirely consistent with what I previously said: big difference between attraction/admiration and sexual fantasies.
Marriage is absolutely a partnership. But as is the case in most partnerships, the partners have different roles. I am a partner in my business, but my partners and I have different roles when it comes to running the business. We also have a managing partner (who is very good).
I went through a seminar a few months ago called "The Quest for Authentic Manhood." Powerful. Talked a lot about the very different roles of husbands and wives, fathers and mothers. One of the mistakes people make when talking about, or even trying to follow the Biblical model is making women second class citizens. I disagree with that approach.
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For me, loving chocolate is not a choice. But whether I eat it or not is entirely my choice. That's how temptation works. Temptations come in areas in which we are weak, and everyone has their weaknesses. For some, it's homosexuality. But how do you explain people like Jolie and Hesch?
Yes I remember Jesus' exact words: "But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart." Matt 5:28. That is entirely consistent with what I previously said: big difference between attraction/admiration and sexual fantasies.
Marriage is absolutely a partnership. But as is the case in most partnerships, the partners have different roles. I am a partner in my business, but my partners and I have different roles when it comes to running the business. We also have a managing partner (who is very good).
I went through a seminar a few months ago called "The Quest for Authentic Manhood." Powerful. Talked a lot about the very different roles of husbands and wives, fathers and mothers. One of the mistakes people make when talking about, or even trying to follow the Biblical model is making women second class citizens. I disagree with that approach.
well said beach
;)
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\, I have the same intolerance for Christian groups that put religion ahead of human rights.
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mate TRUE christanity is ALL FOR human rights...just like ISLAM and the JEWISH faith...
read the gawd damn koran ..its $9.95 for fucks sake..
its islam is so bad dontcha wanna actually see if everyone is actually right..but picking up and reading the VERY book everyone keeps trashing? :-\
go read the koran..when u come back..i'll accept your aology..
cause i'm cool like that!
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ToxicAvenger,
I..
u never asked a question mate..u just mentioned some great and noble people...
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God desires a relationship with us. Sin seperates us from that relationship. Jesus died to restore that relationship. The focus of the reward of "heaven" should not and is not on material things but on having a perfect relationship with our Creator......being in His presence (which it is impossible to be in his presence with sin). That being said, the "reward" of having a relationship with God is even beneficial in this life.
I think your idea of heaven is skewed.......also on judging christians......let a lone what motivates them, but I could be wrong. Wouldnt be the first time.
Thats why I dont judge people or compare them from one to another.
yanno whats ironic...post 911
you sound like a muslim...
sans jesus ws god..
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u never asked a question mate..u just mentioned some great and noble people...
1. "mostly never getting laid" is your definition of being good, or doing good?
2. Can you name one atheist who has done anything like this, one whose life comes even close to the life of these Christians?
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Yes I remember Jesus' exact words: "But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart." Matt 5:28. That is entirely consistent with what I previously said: big difference between attraction/admiration and sexual fantasies.
Marriage is absolutely a partnership. But as is the case in most partnerships, the partners have different roles. I am a partner in my business, but my partners and I have different roles when it comes to running the business. We also have a managing partner (who is very good).
What's the deal and who are Jolie and Hersh?
OK, so what if, it was a sin to eat chocolate? What if your only alternatives were never to each chocolate and be misrable and lonely all your life or the other choice was to eat vanilla which makes your skin crawl and would make you misirable?
You see that's why I believe those passages were not the word of GOD, but instead the word of the society or a particular societies point of view in the time they were written.
What's harmed when 2 people of the same sex have a relationship? Only the exclusive idea that all relationships whould be man and woman.
GOD created those with a tendency toward homosexual and bisexual sexualities. If they were truely a sin then GOd must be a sadistic GOD who loves to torture people.
Marriage is absolutely a partnership. But as is the case in most partnerships, the partners have different roles. I am a partner in my business, but my partners and I have different roles when it comes to running the business. We also have a managing partner (who is very good).
I went through a seminar a few months ago called "The Quest for Authentic Manhood." Powerful. Talked a lot about the very different roles of husbands and wives, fathers and mothers. One of the mistakes people make when talking about, or even trying to follow the Biblical model is making women second class citizens. I disagree with that approach.
The point you are making here is loud and clear and i agree with most of what you say. The problem here is the passages in the BIBLE don;t put Women on a equal basis as men. That to me means the BIBLE cannot be the word of GOD, but again instead the word of men who lived in a society where women were second class citizens.
BTW: Happy Thanks Giving to you and your family :)
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1. "mostly never getting laid" is your definition of being good, or doing good?
2. Can you name one atheist who has done anything like this, one whose life comes even close to the life of these Christians?
stephen hawkings.....robert penrose...chandershaker. .i could go on but you dont know these people
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stephen hawkings.....robert penrose...chandershaker. .i could go on but you dont know these people
Come on, tell me who these people are what they did. I would love to know.
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Come on, tell me who these people are what they did. I would love to know.
You and I don't know these people well enough to say either way if they lived their lives a "true" christian does.
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You and I don't know these people well enough to say either way if they lived their lives a "true" christian does.
Ozmo,
I don't expect these people to live or to have lived their lives as a "true" Christian does since I asked for the name or names of "Atheists" who have done nearly as much good for orphans, widows, the poor, the homeless as Christians have. This thread is putting down the good that religious people do and have done for the world, but where is the good that atheists do? You can throw a list of names of atheists at me, but I want to know who they are and what they've done. I have listed names of Christians along with what they did so that nobody will say that I'm making it up.
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Come on, tell me who these people are what they did. I would love to know.
aww you think u r that important....
google
or r religious people 2 dumb to google? exactly why did i have 2 tell u to google whithout you figuring it our for yourself? :-\
dumbass.. :-\
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aww you think u r that important....
google
or r religious people 2 dumb to google? exactly why did i have 2 tell u to google whithout you figuring it our for yourself? :-\
dumbass.. :-\
Easy, tiger. No need to lose your temper, lady. Is it that time of the month for ya? Why not google it yourself and just post the information here like I did? I didn't just throw a list of names at you and then ask you to google it. Sure, I'll google it when I have time. Too busy right now with family from out of town for the holidays and working on a C++ program for the federal government. GOD bless you, toxy! Oh, and don't forget to pay your taxes. :-*
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Ozmo,
I don't expect these people to live or to have lived their lives as a "true" Christian does since I asked for the name or names of "Atheists" who have done nearly as much good for orphans, widows, the poor, the homeless as Christians have. This thread is putting down the good that religious people do and have done for the world, but where is the good that atheists do? You can throw a list of names of atheists at me, but I want to know who they are and what they've done. I have listed names of Christians along with what they did so that nobody will say that I'm making it up.
Agreed, however the same can be said for hindu's, muslims, buddists, etc... I'm sure their is a list of notable Athiest humanitarians somewhere, pr perhaps someoone can provide that for us.
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Loco, are you saying only Christiains would do all those charitable things you listed?
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Loco, are you saying only Christiains would do all those charitable things you listed?
No, I'm not saying that. I'm speaking for all "god believing folks", and using Christianity as a good example.
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What's the deal and who are Jolie and Hersh?
OK, so what if, it was a sin to eat chocolate? What if your only alternatives were never to each chocolate and be misrable and lonely all your life or the other choice was to eat vanilla which makes your skin crawl and would make you misirable?
You see that's why I believe those passages were not the word of GOD, but instead the word of the society or a particular societies point of view in the time they were written.
What's harmed when 2 people of the same sex have a relationship? Only the exclusive idea that all relationships whould be man and woman.
GOD created those with a tendency toward homosexual and bisexual sexualities. If they were truely a sin then GOd must be a sadistic GOD who loves to torture people.
The point you are making here is loud and clear and i agree with most of what you say. The problem here is the passages in the BIBLE don;t put Women on a equal basis as men. That to me means the BIBLE cannot be the word of GOD, but again instead the word of men who lived in a society where women were second class citizens.
BTW: Happy Thanks Giving to you and your family :)
Jolie was bisexual for a little while. Now she's with a man. Hesch was heterosexual, then lesbian, and now heterosexual (married with a kid). There are many like those two. They make choices to sleep with people of the same sex. God has nothing to do with those choices.
I think you're placing the blame wrong with the entity. Satan tempts people. God created people with the power to choose. Satan tempts everyone in areas in which they are weak. One of the challenges we face is to overcome temptation. I believe the promises in the Bible that say no one will be tempted beyond what they can bear (or is it bare?). Also, the more you resist temptation, the easier it becomes to resist.
Satan is the one who is sadistic, not God.
Happy Thanksgiving to you and your family. Tough loss for our Niners today. . . :'(
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Jolie was bisexual for a little while. Now she's with a man. Hesch was heterosexual, then lesbian, and now heterosexual (married with a kid). There are many like those two. They make choices to sleep with people of the same sex. God has nothing to do with those choices.
I think you're placing the blame wrong with the entity. Satan tempts people. God created people with the power to choose. Satan tempts everyone in areas in which they are weak. One of the challenges we face is to overcome temptation. I believe the promises in the Bible that say no one will be tempted beyond what they can bear (or is it bare?). Also, the more you resist temptation, the easier it becomes to resist.
Satan is the one who is sadistic, not God.
Happy Thanksgiving to you and your family. Tough loss for our Niners today. . . :'(
Man......... That loss, was brutal :'( :'( :'( :'(
Over the years i've learn much about homosexuality from some friends of mine and work associates who were gay. When you compare Jolie to typical homosexuals you are comparing apples to oranges. Yes, they are both fruits, but they are different types of fruits. ;D
A typical homosexual finds it repulsive to be with a member of the opposite sex. Much like a person who hates strained squash mixed with bitter melon and cold pork fat. If GOD allowed people to be "cursed" with this, and then made it a sin, it seems to me it would be sadistic. My contention is, that GOD is not sadistic, becuase being gay isn't a sin.